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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 01 2008 21:22 InRaged wrote: Congrats. The point flew completely over your head. I'm not sure whether you even read the OP. You should be careful about your judgments as you can now see that this statement now pretty much embodies the consensus reached in the two pages that followed. | ||
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
On December 02 2008 05:17 FrozenArbiter wrote: Would you people stop misusing the phrase "easy to learn, hard to master"? Starcraft fits that bill *perfectly* ok? Do you seriously think SC is hard to learn? It might even be *easier* to learn than WC3 or DotA. At least to me, the many different creep patterns, the hero choices (since only a few of them are actually competitively viable as a starting hero - and only one or maybe two of their spells are likely to be viable as a first spell) and so on makes WC3 quite a daunting experience (if you are trying to actually learn how to play, not just randomly playing). Easy to learn, hard to master is, in every sense, a positive statement. I fail to see how SC is in any way easy to learn. Is it easy to learn marine micro vs lurkers? Dropship micro vs goons? the dozens of build orders you have to memorize and spend about 20 games on each before you are even able to compete? Or maybe you mean learn as in all the unit statistics? That is just as hard as there are many complex number changes that go on such as high ground and concussive damage. There is a ton to learn about SC before you completely grasp the basics. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
It is easy to learn the basics of SC. Microing marines (well) vs lurkers is not the basics. Easy to learn, hard to master is pretty much the same as the phrase "An hour to learn, a lifetime to master".. A phrase that has been applied to everything from Chess, to Go, to Poker. The examples you bring up ALL belong to the "master" part of the statement. It takes something like 30 minutes to learn all the rules you need to start playing Go, maybe even less to start playing Chess. The time it takes to pick up the absolute basics needed to play a game of SC are somewhere in that area, depending on what you choose to include (as unlike chess or go, SC doesn't have a ruleset you have to learn before playing, so you have to make some judgement calls on what constitutes the necessary basics). | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
I can be wrong, but for the lack of fact, its all a matter of opinion | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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BanZu
United States3329 Posts
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WoodenSpider
United States85 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 02 2008 10:51 BanZu wrote: Why can't MBS be turned on/off when creating a game? Because it creates a split in the community, something that runs contrary to blizzard's design philosophy when it comes to automatch making: "Less buckets = better" That and it's not good if 2 competitive communities arise from the two different modes, all that will happen is there'll be a split in prizemoney and competition ;/ On December 02 2008 10:43 Ki_Do wrote: i cant believe ppl want micro/strategy/build orders to be easy to learn, so what, you want to master the game then isnt macro enough? Who said that ;o? | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
And no Wooden, sc2 is not going to be terrible, not for casuals who will enjoy feeling as Jim Raynor again. But i fear what will happen with the proscene cause if wc3 is no where near brood war, my bias wont let me accept this ... as a sucessor to sc1 | ||
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
On December 01 2008 21:40 Ki_Do wrote: sc2 can be whatever u want it to be, since it dont make bw die in s. korea if it happens, well i just wasted my time, sadly for me it will never come back. btw, sf comparison doesnt even make a point. there are no special moves in starcraft, only thing you need is attention and awareness to remember its time to macro/re-macro, if you enemy is faster than you at GIVING ORDERS, so you punish him by removing this important part of REAL TIME? You can make special moves(SF) as easy as you want, but this doesnt have the same effect that macroing have in starcraft, so what, attention and awareness arent useful things in a strategy game? i dont talk about apm cause in street fighter you easily break the 200 apm barrier same needed in starcraft. btw ur it depends on what is going to happen to this game and with the next games, cause atm i have no interest in buying it (check out the nested quote) well then i guess you aren't part of his 'we' then. haha.  | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 02 2008 11:03 Ki_Do wrote: That guy u replied And no Wooden, sc2 is not going to be terrible, not for casuals who will enjoy feeling as Jim Raynor again. But i fear what will happen with the proscene cause if wc3 is no where near brood war, my bias wont let me accept this ... as a sucessor to sc1 Actually I think he's (at the same time) saying that strategy is like that in SC (ie not important and easy to learn). Anyway, basically everyone seems to think SC2 will be better than WC3 so I wouldn't worry about that (even the WC3 player Rotterdam said he thought SC2 had the potential to be better than WC3). The thing is that it still maintains pretty much everything that made SC a good spectator sport, and while it has a few of the UI improvements present in WC3 it doesn't have any of the features that slowed WC3 down. There is no upkeep - so players will not be punished for macroing. The unit cap is 2x that of WC3 - so games will "play bigger". Units die, and they die quickly - so games will be as action packed as they are in SC. And something that Rotterdam brought up: In WC3 you cannot split your army up once you reach tier 2, because at that point the enemy will have too many slowing or disabling spells (dryad poison, Naga frost arrow - I hope that's what it's called - raider ensnare, sorceress slow, shadow hunter hex, KotG entangle, MK storm bolt... possibly more, I can't think of any tho), meaning it's quite dangerous to move around with a small force. You won't have creeps. Period. The game speed will be a decent bit higher. | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
On December 02 2008 06:04 Showtime! wrote: Your first sentence is total bullshit. My first sentence: Apparently, mindgames and strategies in BW boils down to cookie-cutter bos and memorizing what you see in replays? Isn't that exactly what I spent my entire post debating against? I said I don't believe that bw is that strategically shallow. I said that saying things like "more strategy just means replay watching and cookie cutter builds" was ridiculous. In the future, please try to get the overall message of a post before quoting it in its entirety and calling it "bullshit". | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On December 02 2008 07:47 anotak wrote:Of course it does, I'm not debating that. But as someone who played shooters at higher levels of play, and is learning a significant amount about fighters at the moment, I can say that that doesn't even compare. Starcraft Yomi: [snip] That's about mere 4 yomi decisions in a game that took several minutes (don't remember the number). Most games don't even have that level of decision. I've won tournaments with prepared builds locally too. But in a game of Street Fighter there are like 20-30 yomi decisions in a 60 second round. You know, I was actually making this exact same point a couple of nights ago. First of all, I think the easiest way to describe "mindgames" or "yomi" is: it is the art of fooling/tricking your opponent. Anyway, StarCraft has a very low rate of mindgame opportunities per minute. Ask yourself: how frequently do you "fool" or try to fool your opponent in an average game of StarCraft? Now, mindgames are pretty fundamental to fighters (the good ones, at least  ), so it's no surprise that they occur far, far more frequently than in StarCraft. It's unavoidable, really. Another example of a game with more mindgames is Team Micro Melee. E.g. fooling your opponent by attacking an unexpected location; or fooling your opponent by burrowing hydras without suiciding; or fooling that guy by running away as if you expect him to suicide, but instead stopping just outside of his burrow vision; and so on. But again, this is possible at least in part because it's a different kind of game.Although I would find StarCraft more fun if it had more mindgames, I honestly don't know how to give it more. E.g. in TMM, those mindgames arise mostly out of the "Micro" part of the game, not the "Melee" part. So even though it's an area where StarCraft (and perhaps RTS in general) lacks, I really can't complain about it. =/ (Instead I now play fighters and TMM rather than 1v1 games. ) | ||
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
On December 02 2008 12:05 Love.Zelduck wrote: My first sentence: Isn't that exactly what I spent my entire post debating against? I said I don't believe that bw is that strategically shallow. I said that saying things like "more strategy just means replay watching and cookie cutter builds" was ridiculous. In the future, please try to get the overall message of a post before quoting it in its entirety and calling it "bullshit". Perhaps you should have read all my comments beforehand as well. You missed the ball. Furthermore, you should never compare the two genres because they're very different from one another. Read the last part of your first paragraph. Basically you should have never posted anything at all then because yes, it isn't a fair comparison and SC:BW isn't just about cookie cutter strategies, but nerves of steel as well. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:37 Showtime! wrote: Perhaps you should have read all my comments beforehand as well. You missed the ball. Furthermore, you should never compare the two genres because they're very different from one another. Read the last part of your first paragraph. Basically you should have never posted anything at all then because yes, it isn't a fair comparison and SC:BW isn't just about cookie cutter strategies, but nerves of steel as well. Why don't you read the post he's replying to (by Natsu)? He (Zelduck) is NOT saying BW is about cookie cutter strategies. | ||
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Zelc
129 Posts
In the other type, there is no skill cap on the mechanics. No one can perform every action to perfection, and there is always room to improve. Here, mechanics serve as a way for a player to differentiate himself. Starcraft is an example of such a game, and it's one of the reasons why this game is so fun to play and watch. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 02 2008 07:47 anotak wrote: Starcraft Yomi: I won a game of starcraft 2 days ago, PvT, where me, being a terran player knew exactly what my opponent was going to think. So despite me being a 100APM out of practice terran player offracing protoss, I had a feeling the terran was going to biomech, so i threw up cannons and templar archives for storm. His macro was so much better than mine but i annihilated his forces with a few storms. I knew what was going through his mind next, so i got my third and put a hidden pair of stargates and a fleet beacon in a place i knew he would not scan, because i play terran and i know where terrans scan. I built 2 carriers and then as I predicted his metal force of vults and tanks showed up and started sieging in my nat. my 3rd & 4th carrier were on the way and so i waited till just the right moment and they popped out and then revealed them, sniped the tanks and the vultures, and pushed with my ground army. I knew he would start pumping goliaths like crazy, so i just cut carriers and massed a ground army of DTs goons and some zeals. I sniped his third with the carriers and sniped tanks and as the mass goliaths came pouring in, i just walked all over him with my smaller badly microed ground army. Never heard about Yomi before, but based on this... there are tons of potential for Yomi in starcraft. Can't say for other people, but the reason why me complain about mindless clicking - that is clicking at buildings - and the reason why it's called mindless in the first place is because it doesn't have this very Yomi. In starcraft huge deal of Yomi is concentrated in the microing your units. That is, your micro against your opponents micro. When you fly with your shuttle over your opponents sieged tanks, he unseges them trying to prevent friendly damage and at this moment you attack, isn't this Yomi? Or dragoons with reaver shuttle against same force - it's hard to describe how it's going but there are definitely a lot of mind games in this battle of micro. Now of course there isn't much of such Yomi in starcraft, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't have more of it. And before we can include more of Yomi micro we must first get rid of meaningless micro. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing directly with you, I'm just trying to push the point I feel not widespread enough in these discussions. Reading these discussions feels like no more than couple people share the opinion, that there's bad mechanics - mechanics that doesn't have any decision making, that doesn't depend on situation and that consist of the always same thoughtless routine - and there's good game mechanics, like blink, or like warpgates, or like nydus warm, or like anything else that has good potential for this Yomi thing /end of rambling | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
Like, I think certain mechanics should play less of a role in SC2, but I'm not saying mechanics should completely be trashed and removed. It would be nice to have it to a point where practice will make you better, but sitting there for hours practicing muscle memory is just a little ridiculous to some of us... Then again, I guess that's why I'm not a pro gamer | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
I mainly suggest yomi type concepts because yomi is the other thing that leads to a game being highly competitive, other than mechanics... @Bill: I don't know how to add yomi to RTS either really. That's tough for me to answer. I do know that if mechanical barriers are removed, yomi's another big type of brick wall that keeps bad players bad and good players good. A change that leads to yomi would have to be a big fundamental change to the game to avoid being an artificial tacked-on concept I suppose, and I guess that's out of the scope for Starcraft 2 at this stage in development. It seems to me like no matter what really happens, with the lack of mechanics we'll be left with a less competitive Starcraft (though i think saying that MBS and automine will completely remove competitiveness is overstating the issue... but not too significantly). On December 02 2008 14:54 InRaged wrote: Never heard about Yomi before, but based on this... there are tons of potential for Yomi in starcraft. Can't say for other people, but the reason why me complain about mindless clicking - that is clicking at buildings - and the reason why it's called mindless in the first place is because it doesn't have this very Yomi. In starcraft huge deal of Yomi is concentrated in the microing your units. That is, your micro against your opponents micro. When you fly with your shuttle over your opponents sieged tanks, he unseges them trying to prevent friendly damage and at this moment you attack, isn't this Yomi? Or dragoons with reaver shuttle against same force - it's hard to describe how it's going but there are definitely a lot of mind games in this battle of micro. Now of course there isn't much of such Yomi in starcraft, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't have more of it. And before we can include more of Yomi micro we must first get rid of meaningless micro. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing directly with you, I'm just trying to push the point I feel not widespread enough in these discussions. Reading these discussions feels like no more than couple people share the opinion, that there's bad mechanics - mechanics that doesn't have any decision making, that doesn't depend on situation and that consist of the always same thoughtless routine - and there's good game mechanics, like blink, or like warpgates, or like nydus warm, or like anything else that has good potential for this Yomi thing /end of rambling nah none of those actions you described are yomi http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html | ||
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