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Waxangel
United States33706 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/622559-1-maru-greatest-players-of-all-time https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/622558-2-serral-greatest-players-of-all-time https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/625342-goat-addendum-maru-and-the-perception-of-code-s https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/628786-the-starcraft-2-goat-an-in-depth-analysis https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/607611-how-do-we-measure-goats-without-korean-sc2 https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/629391-the-goat-ranking-of-goat-rankings | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3554 Posts
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FataLe
New Zealand4560 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States2004 Posts
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Ciaus237
South Africa288 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins Here's another idea: Since we've had a big TL GOAT article, how about we make a thread for another TL community ranking, where everyone shares their Top 15, and then we compile the results? Now would be a great time to do it! The last one was in 2018 i believe. It would be cool to see what people think now so we can look back on it in the future. | ||
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jodljodl
182 Posts
On August 25 2024 17:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Instead of debating the #1 GOAT spot all the time, why don't we have some fun and discuss some other interesting comparisons? For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins just my very first feeling. a mixture of gut, heart and reason in decreasing order. please don't judge  MC Polt Taeja (purely heart here) herO, stats, classic, trap, MC soO | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1367 Posts
On August 25 2024 16:25 CicadaSC wrote: how about a goat for regions? i think idra is the greatest american player of all time. (not highest skill level achieved, i think neeb and astrea etc far surpassed him) but what he was doing over the course of his career? yeah he's the goat. I would put IdrA at 4th if we talk NA, sixth if we take the entire Americas-region. With Neeb being the clear number 1, Long career, dominated the region, the first foreigner to win something Starcraft-related in Korea since freaking Grr... Personal "GOAT by regions"-list: EMEA: Serral Americas: Neeb -NA: Neeb -LAT: SpeCial/MajOr Korea: Maru APAC: Oliveira -China: Oliveira -TW/HK: Has -ANZ: This feels like the hardest one and I'm not sure. Iaguz? PiG? Probe? EMEA/EU always was one region, but just for fun, my picks for the european regions (roughly divided by how LoL divides EMEA): DACH: Showtime Scandinavia: Serral Poland: Nerchio France: Clem UK/Ireland: Demuslim Iberia: LucifroN BeNeLux: uThermal (though Grubby or Ret might also be fair picks, not sure) Not sure for the Balkans and CIS. NightEnD maybe for Balkan and Happy or Kas for CIS? Or Loweley? Or Bly for his long career? | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
We could have 1 for LotV specifically? Also, I'm down to start a thread for a TL Community Goat ranking (similar to the 2018 one) if that's allowed. It would probably include tournaments up to EWC but no further. Also, it could allow 1 full month for people to post their personal lists and for it to count towards the community results. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On August 25 2024 19:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: That reminds me, during HotS we had a GOAT thread/discussion, but also had a greatest HotS players thread/discussion. We could have 1 for LotV specifically? Also, I'm down to start a thread for a TL Community Goat ranking (similar to the 2018 one) if that's allowed. It would probably include tournaments up to EWC but no further. Also, it could allow 1 full month for people to post their personal lists and for it to count towards the community results. I decided to run the TL community goat thing because I thought everything that could ever be said about ''The Goat'' (Maru, Serral, Rogue...) had been said multiple times over. My idea was to expand the focus to many more players and make it more of a reminiscence of Starcraft history as a whole. Nevertheless, a small part of me believed I could work to quench the debate and hopefully give me a breather from the endless Maru vs Serral threads, if only for a couple of months. As you can see, it didn't work. Fun project to do though, made me discover and rediscover a lot of players. I'm all in favor of your idea but we should ask people to post their top 100  | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1967 Posts
On August 25 2024 21:08 Nakajin wrote: I decided to run the TL community goat thing because I thought everything that could ever be said about ''The Goat'' (Maru, Serral, Rogue...) had been said multiple times over. My idea was to expand the focus to many more players and make it more of a reminiscence of Starcraft history as a whole. Nevertheless, a small part of me believed that I could work to quench the debate and hopefully give me a breather from the endless Maru vs Serral threads, if only for a couple of months. As you can see, it didn't work. Fun project to do though, made me discover and rediscover a lot of players. I'm all in favor of your idea but we should ask people to post their top 100 Once you get past the 20-30 range, you're just picking from people with 1-2 Premier event wins, at which point it becomes pretty impossible to get anywhere. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On August 25 2024 21:13 Mizenhauer wrote: Once you get past the 20-30 range, you're just picking from people with 1-2 Premier event wins, at which point it becomes pretty impossible to get anywhere. Nah, that's where the fun is! Comparing Dark and Rogue is a beaten path, but Astrea vs Thorzain? Hydra vs Ragnarok? Creator vs Seed? Now that can take you down some real rabbit holes. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On August 25 2024 19:32 Balnazza wrote: I would put IdrA at 4th if we talk NA, sixth if we take the entire Americas-region. With Neeb being the clear number 1, Long career, dominated the region, the first foreigner to win something Starcraft-related in Korea since freaking Grr... Personal "GOAT by regions"-list: EMEA: Serral Americas: Neeb -NA: Neeb -LAT: SpeCial/MajOr Korea: Maru APAC: Oliveira -China: Oliveira -TW/HK: Has -ANZ: This feels like the hardest one and I'm not sure. Iaguz? PiG? Probe? EMEA/EU always was one region, but just for fun, my picks for the european regions (roughly divided by how LoL divides EMEA): DACH: Showtime Scandinavia: Serral Poland: Nerchio France: Clem UK/Ireland: Demuslim Iberia: LucifroN BeNeLux: uThermal (though Grubby or Ret might also be fair picks, not sure) Not sure for the Balkans and CIS. NightEnD maybe for Balkan and Happy or Kas for CIS? Or Loweley? Or Bly for his long career? Good shout! For Taiwan, I would actually go Sen over Has, higher peak (2 world championship top 4!) and won a big tournament on home soil. I agree ANZ is the hardest, I think I'd go Iaguz too, but Probe and Moonglade aren't far off for me (although, does KingKong count as ANZ?). | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1367 Posts
On August 25 2024 21:51 Nakajin wrote: Good shout! For Taiwan, I would actually go Sen over Has, higher peak (2 world championship top 4!) and won a big tournament on home soil. I agree ANZ is the hardest, I think I'd go Iaguz too, but Probe and Moonglade aren't far off for me (although, does KingKong count as ANZ?). I would definetly count KingKong as ANZ or Polt as American. We are not talking about nationality, but players representing and playing in a region. Though I did forget about Polt and Violet in my statement about IdrA, so he drops down even further. Has vs. Sen is an interesting thing. Sen definetly scored higher, I think at one point MyStarcraft ranked him as 5th in the world or something like that by some sort of points-ranking. So he definetly reached the highest peak out of all the TW/HK players. On the other hand, Has dominated the region for so tremendously long, even when he had a strong rival in Nice. So this really comes down to what you value higher, longevity or peak. For ANZ: I think ROOT Gaming once featured an article saying that he ANZ region is the most shifting, since after mOOnGlade dominating it and then PiG and Iaguz taking over, there was no clear favorite for years in the region. Probe, Azure, Seither, Petraeus and a few more always had a good shot at winning it. Of course that wasn't really noteworthy for the rest of the world, considering how bad ANZ used to score at international events. But since we are not talking about the international success here, but purely who was the Greatest of that region...I really would say ANZ is by far the hardest region to decide one clear GOAT on. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On August 25 2024 17:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Instead of debating the #1 GOAT spot all the time, why don't we have some fun and discuss some other interesting comparisons? For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins Here's another idea: Since we've had a big TL GOAT article, how about we make a thread for another TL community ranking, where everyone shares their Top 15, and then we compile the results? Now would be a great time to do it! The last one was in 2018 i believe. It would be cool to see what people think now so we can look back on it in the future. This post gives me hope for the future of the SC2 community. Nestea was clearly a visionary who just held an understanding of the game practically no one else at the time did. I think I have MC slightly higher just because his staying power and X factor were so notable. Polt over MMA for me. Polt is one of the smartest players we've ever seen. The fact that in a 3-2 series vs Prime Taeja, Polt won every long game, and he forced Taeja of all people to go for cheeses to take wins speaks to his tactical prowess. Life is imo the GOAT so clear #1...Mvp in 2nd and Taeja in 3rd...though I will say I rate Taeja higher than most...damn damn good player. I would have had Stats in top 10 over TY so there's that. herO 100% is on there with his post-military career. Classic is close but needs to do more post-military to make it. Trap and MC are somewhere in 16-30 soO vs sOs kinda captures the essence of what it means to be a good SC2 player...obviously soO's macro was Legendary and sOs was rather mediocre in that regard...Overall I'd say SC2 has been more of a real-time game than a strategy game...with the lone exception being sOs...that he had such an effect i think edges him over the on paper better player. As an aside, instead of just everyone's top 15 GOATs...do top 10 favorite players. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On August 25 2024 23:00 Cricketer12 wrote: This post gives me hope for the future of the SC2 community. Nestea was clearly a visionary who just held an understanding of the game practically no one else at the time did. I think I have MC slightly higher just because his staying power and X factor were so notable. Polt over MMA for me. Polt is one of the smartest players we've ever seen. The fact that in a 3-2 series vs Prime Taeja, Polt won every long game, and he forced Taeja of all people to go for cheeses to take wins speaks to his tactical prowess. Life is imo the GOAT so clear #1...Mvp in 2nd and Taeja in 3rd...though I will say I rate Taeja higher than most...damn damn good player. I would have had Stats in top 10 over TY so there's that. herO 100% is on there with his post-military career. Classic is close but needs to do more post-military to make it. Trap and MC are somewhere in 16-30 soO vs sOs kinda captures the essence of what it means to be a good SC2 player...obviously soO's macro was Legendary and sOs was rather mediocre in that regard...Overall I'd say SC2 has been more of a real-time game than a strategy game...with the lone exception being sOs...that he had such an effect i think edges him over the on paper better player. As an aside, instead of just everyone's top 15 GOATs...do top 10 favorite players. 10 is not enough but let me try. I can't order them though and it would change tomorrow. - Scarlett - Maru - Pigbaby - Gumiho - Bomber - sOs - Neeb - MMA - soO - Zest At the moment I also really like Skillous, Ryung and herO. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On August 25 2024 23:30 Nakajin wrote: 10 is not enough but let me try. I can't order them though and it would change tomorrow. - Scarlett - Maru - Pigbaby - Gumiho - Bomber - sOs - Neeb - MMA - soO - Zest At the moment I also really like Skillous, Ryung and herO. Hell yeah. Off the top of my head I've got DRG sOs Stats HuK Polt PartinG Ryung Scarlett Taeja Classic | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1367 Posts
So my ten players, though probably in no particular order after the first three: Snute - Always my favorite. For one, it is a rule that my favorite player in any RTS needs to be Norwegian (Creolophus, TheViper). But for me, he kind of was the "Proto-Serral". That Zerg that gets up there with the Koreans, baffles with his skills and how dominant his playstyle 'could' be. But he was also so human, so vulnerable. His struggle for BlizzCon each year...including that one RedBull Battleground event where he was almost in tears after a 0-1. Snute, even though he held the title as "best foreigner" at some point, was clearly never a Top 10 player. And even outside of Korea he was never as dominant as he could have been with better nerves I think. But still, my favorite player ever. Serral - Yes, admittingly, Serral is my 2nd favorite player. And sure, his dominance and the way he can make the game boring are as huge parts of these as his storyline...the one that wasn't a foreign hope, but a foreign tyrant instead. But what I love most about him is the fact that he brought me back to SC2. After Snute (semi-)retired, I honestly was kind of done with SC2. I didn't feel like watching more of it, I just checked results here and there. But when I heard during BlizzCon that there was a foreigner who didn't just had a chance against the koreans, but destroyed them one by one, I atleast had to check it out...and the spark for SC2 was back baby! Reynor - to complete the Zerg-trio, I have to go with Reynor. And believe me, that was a long road. Because at first, he definetly was not a favorite, purely by the fact that he was Serrals rival. But over the years, his chaotic playstyle and lets face it, funny personality, just grew on me. And him and Serral teaming up is basically the closest to some 4Kings-Magic we will ever get again :3 4 to 10 in no order: Grubby Kane Nerchio Showtime Harstem Innovation Skillous | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1967 Posts
On August 26 2024 00:13 Cricketer12 wrote: Hell yeah. Off the top of my head I've got DRG sOs Stats HuK Polt PartinG Ryung Scarlett Taeja Classic Impact Departure Rag god bravo soO mvp maru rogue Min Classic I love me some lair tech zergs with obvious flaws. | ||
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