EPTCode S RO16 Preview - herO, Reynor, soO, GuMiho - Page 2
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johnnyh123
124 Posts
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
On May 10 2024 03:31 Drahkn wrote: While GSL is not as competitive as it once was, top 16 in GSL is still way higher average skill than a top 16 in Europe. Top 16 players in GSL are all capable of taking bo3's of any player. So many people the past years thinking ESL tournaments somehow rival GSL it's just not the case. Europe has 4 players that belong in the top 16 in a GSL and Serral is probably the only one of those who would be a even favorite to win a GSL, but I think Serral would need several seasons before he would take a GSL, even if GSL is at it's lowest level of competitiveness it would still be tough. I think so too, not because of skill, but because of the ype of preparation needed. They've been honing this for a decade and a half now. The Gumiho's and SoO's. They are never true contenders for Season finals or any type of weekenders, but when it comes to GSL, they're monsters, and can tumble anyone other than Maru - who should wake up every day, kneel and thank to God that Serral wasnt born in Korea. | ||
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tigera6
3435 Posts
On May 11 2024 21:50 Locutos wrote: I think so too, not because of skill, but because of the ype of preparation needed. They've been honing this for a decade and a half now. The Gumiho's and SoO's. They are never true contenders for Season finals or any type of weekenders, but when it comes to GSL, they're monsters, and can tumble anyone other than Maru - who should wake up every day, kneel and thank to God that Serral wasnt born in Korea. Nah, I think he should thank that Rogue got to go to the military, imagine Rogue got G5L before him would be more devastating. If Serral was born in KR, and play in the WOL era, I do not know how far he would have gotten through all that. People just assume Serral is immediately a world-champion the moment he touch SC2 or soemthing. | ||
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JJH777
United States4414 Posts
On May 11 2024 21:50 Locutos wrote: I think so too, not because of skill, but because of the ype of preparation needed. They've been honing this for a decade and a half now. The Gumiho's and SoO's. They are never true contenders for Season finals or any type of weekenders, but when it comes to GSL, they're monsters, and can tumble anyone other than Maru - who should wake up every day, kneel and thank to God that Serral wasnt born in Korea. The idea that Maru should be grateful Serral isn't in Korea is false. Serral is in no way the main problem for Maru in terms of lack of results that would make him the definitive goat. Maru could've been like a 7-8 time world champion without changing his record vs Serral at all because in most big tournaments he simply isn't required to beat Serral to win. There's no reason to think GSL wouldn't be the same. He'd still be able to win most of his GSLs without needing to beat Serral even if Serral was in Korea. That's also ignoring the possibility that Maru does better vs Serral in Korea than elsewhere which is a pretty big possibility to ignore considering Maru already does much better vs most other players in Korea. Most of Maru's international eliminations are at the hands of other Koreans he is usually favored against in Korea. If anything Serral should be grateful he was born in Finland because without that he wouldn't have been able to farm region locked events and have a guaranteed qualifying slot into every major international. Serral being born in Korea would have impacted his legacy a lot more than Maru's. You immediately have to remove all his region locked events, most of his HSCs, and a sizable chunk of his other internationals from a combination of: HSC conflicts with GSL Koreans having less slots than they should in internationals, Serral isn't going to be top 6-8 in Korea every single season or every single KR qualifier, even if he is most of the time he will falter sometimes and the punishment will be much worse than in EU Jetlag (memed about but it's real, EU players have a small but real advantage at the internationals that take place in EU COVID era online events favoring EU players for start time and server switching | ||
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
On May 12 2024 01:00 JJH777 wrote: The idea that Maru should be grateful Serral isn't in Korea is false. Serral is in no way the main problem for Maru in terms of lack of results that would make him the definitive goat. Maru could've been like a 7-8 time world champion without changing his record vs Serral at all because in most big tournaments he simply isn't required to beat Serral to win. There's no reason to think GSL wouldn't be the same. He'd still be able to win most of his GSLs without needing to beat Serral even if Serral was in Korea. That's also ignoring the possibility that Maru does better vs Serral in Korea than elsewhere which is a pretty big possibility to ignore considering Maru already does much better vs most other players in Korea. Most of Maru's international eliminations are at the hands of other Koreans he is usually favored against in Korea. If anything Serral should be grateful he was born in Finland because without that he wouldn't have been able to farm region locked events and have a guaranteed qualifying slot into every major international. Serral being born in Korea would have impacted his legacy a lot more than Maru's. You immediately have to remove all his region locked events, most of his HSCs, and a sizable chunk of his other internationals from a combination of: HSC conflicts with GSL Koreans having less slots than they should in internationals, Serral isn't going to be top 6-8 in Korea every single season or every single KR qualifier, even if he is most of the time he will falter sometimes and the punishment will be much worse than in EU Jetlag (memed about but it's real, EU players have a small but real advantage at the internationals that take place in EU COVID era online events favoring EU players for start time and server switching You're seriously stating that the ONLY player in the world who has a head to head advantage against - ALL THE TOP - players in the world worries about not classifying to tournaments? Serral does better against any korean player that has touched the game in the last 6 years. And since he doesnt play weeklies, it means that those statistics are from offline premier events. When i say that Maru should be thankful, im only considering that in all the premier tournaments that both of them competed at the same time, Serral won double the times Maru won, which translates to Maru probably having developed a unique form of gratitude towards no meeting the finnish in korean soil. Dont come with region locked stuff, no one needs to consider them for acknowledging that Serral > Maru. | ||
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JJH777
United States4414 Posts
On May 12 2024 05:57 Locutos wrote: You're seriously stating that the ONLY player in the world who has a head to head advantage against - ALL THE TOP - players in the world worries about not classifying to tournaments? Serral does better against any korean player that has touched the game in the last 6 years. And since he doesnt play weeklies, it means that those statistics are from offline premier events. When i say that Maru should be thankful, im only considering that in all the premier tournaments that both of them competed at the same time, Serral won double the times Maru won, which translates to Maru probably having developed a unique form of gratitude towards no meeting the finnish in korean soil. Dont come with region locked stuff, no one needs to consider them for acknowledging that Serral > Maru. Even from EU he failed to make two season finals and WCG. The idea that he would qualify for everything if he was in Korea is crazy. He would still qualify for most events but would occasionally lose out before the top 6/8 or however many players the event allowed from Korea. The thing is Maru isn't losing those events because of Serral the vast majority of the time. The fact that he is in them is mostly irrelevant. In offline matches they've only played like 4 elimination matches in their entire match history and Maru won one of them so it's really only 3 times that Serral has eliminated him from important events. Additionally in the majority of those events he could have won them without beating Serral. More often than not it was another GSL player who eliminated him. There's no reason to think GSL with Serral wouldn't go a similar way. They would very rarely meet but the majority of the time either one of them could win without playing the other. | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
bopped it’s higher than most tournaments despite the ridiculously low prizepool  ) article for Serral | ||
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
On May 12 2024 18:06 Poopi wrote: Why are we bringing up Maru / Serral in every thread where they aren’t. I mean, sure, Reynor getting + Show Spoiler + bopped it’s higher than most tournaments despite the ridiculously low prizepool ) article for SerralI dont think Reynor's run indicates anything. He hasnt been a real contender for some time. Even though we know he CAN have the highest spikes in performance. | ||
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Poopi
France12904 Posts
On May 12 2024 21:14 Locutos wrote: I dont think Reynor's run indicates anything. He hasnt been a real contender for some time. Even though we know he CAN have the highest spikes in performance. Point 1: - low PING / LAN allows for discrepancies in players skill to shine. Then if that particular run doesn't indicate anything, maybe his previous run, when he was in peak form but couldn't defeat Bunny, is indicative? It's the same pattern: in Korea, you have the "best" ping in the world. In Europe, even with top quality fiber, you get around 20ms (on sc2 interface, idk about real ping) ping. In Korea, afaik it's sub 10ms, which makes a big difference in terms of possibility. To put it simple, the higher the ping, the less the difference in skill / skill gap between players matters, since the possibilities in terms of gameplay (micro / macro etc.) are limited. On the other hand, the lower the ping is compared to true LAN, the more you can do with your units / buildings etc. That's why you can see INSANELY sharp 2base all-ins from terrans (and probably from protoss as well but I watched a bit less PvX) in the GSL, namely the ones that beat Reynor in his previous GSL run (see the Bunny series). When you watch Cure play in European qualifiers with insanely high ping from Korea, he is very limited in terms of gameplay, so he adjusts his strategies to suit that. Point 2: - being able to "DOWNLOAD" your opponent matters at the top level in every esport. Jet lag / living in a foreign country etc matter, but imo those are small points that can be "countered" by the players rather easily (for KR players travelling to EU, or EU players travelling to KR, with melatonin, coming in early, etc.) so that's not why the level of play is higher in the GSL and why Reynor didn't manage to perform well recently. Imho, on top of point 1, why Reynor performed poorly (compared to the expectations) in his last two runs of GSL is the same reason he performed VERY WELL (compared to the expectations) in his first actual GSL run. The infamous "downloading" other players. KR players can practice with each other and more importantly talk to each other very easily, that's why we get the intel from Mizenhauer that GuMiho knew "all" he had to do vs Reynor was to play "weird" / non standard. Because the collective intelligence of players in KR atm was enough (or GuMiho's own practice, whatever) for most players in the GSL to have a feel for how to counter Reynor. That's also probably why herO first picked Reynor, not just because of his "form", but because herO had a good idea on how to play versus Reynor in this period of time. On the other hand, when Reynor first got to play in the GSL, most KR players probably had no clue who this guy was or how to play against him. That's what allowed him to perform as well. Sure, he was skilled / in form or whatever, but he also was in top shape in his previous run. The main difference (on top of point 1 / ping) was the knowledge of the opponent. Conclusion: - why Reynor's runs in the GSL give us a nice idea about Code S level of play. As to why those two points make Code S one of the most difficult tournaments, it's rather understandable: top 16 players in the world are mainly Koreans, while EU+NA+CN have 4-5 players max in this top 16. Having the best collective force of players + insanely low ping allowing skill gap to matter, gives you one of the highest level of play. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
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goldensail
132 Posts
On May 12 2024 05:57 Locutos wrote: Serral does better against any korean player that has touched the game in the last 6 years. And since he doesnt play weeklies, it means that those statistics are from offline premier events. I think that's your memory playing tricks on you. It's not a completely accurate statement. In H2Hs where race balance is taken out of the picture: - Dark beat Serral 4:0 in '20 and between '20-'22, a H2H between the two is not Serral favored. - Similarly between '20-'21, Rogue was heavily favored in H2H against Serral. - In contrast, no Terran ever beat Maru 4:0. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6994 Posts
On May 13 2024 09:49 goldensail wrote: I think that's your memory playing tricks on you. It's not a completely accurate statement. In H2Hs where race balance is taken out of the picture: - Dark beat Serral 4:0 in '20 and between '20-'22, a H2H between the two is not Serral favored. - Similarly between '20-'21, Rogue was heavily favored in H2H against Serral. - In contrast, no Terran ever beat Maru 4:0. Congratulations, you mastered cherry picking | ||
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Poopi
France12904 Posts
On May 13 2024 09:49 goldensail wrote: I think that's your memory playing tricks on you. It's not a completely accurate statement. In H2Hs where race balance is taken out of the picture: - Dark beat Serral 4:0 in '20 and between '20-'22, a H2H between the two is not Serral favored. - Similarly between '20-'21, Rogue was heavily favored in H2H against Serral. - In contrast, no Terran ever beat Maru 4:0. That’s expected though, Maru is the fourth race while Serral is « merely » the best Zerg in the world. Maru would probably be best protoss / Zerg in the world if he fancied playing those races seriously | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On May 13 2024 20:24 Harris1st wrote: Congratulations, you mastered cherry picking If someone is making a blanket statement, I only have to give one example to refute it and sure, that one example will be cherry picked. That's just how basic logic works but it looks like many people don't even know that. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On May 14 2024 02:37 goldensail wrote: If someone is making a blanket statement, I only have to give one example to refute it and sure, that one example will be cherry picked. That's just how basic logic works but it looks like many people don't even know that. The guy said "Serral has a winning record against every korean." You said "well actually if I narrow the time-frame down to these specific time-frames he doesn't." That's not responsive to the original statement. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On May 14 2024 02:41 Pandain wrote: The guy said "Serral has a winning record against every korean." You said "well actually if I narrow the time-frame down to these specific time-frames he doesn't." That's not responsive to the original statement. His statement was "Serral does better against any korean player that has touched the game in the last 6 years." I showed periods of time within 6 years when that's not true. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6994 Posts
On May 14 2024 16:33 goldensail wrote: His statement was "Serral does better against any korean player that has touched the game in the last 6 years." I showed periods of time within 6 years when that's not true. Those two statements don't directly contradict each other though: First statement: The timeframe:6 years the statement was "in this timeframe Serral does better (than anyone else?) against any korean player" Your statement: your timeframe: A rainy night with a fullmoon and a yellow cab was driving by the statement: he (serral) does not because he lost a game in that timeframe | ||
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Poopi
France12904 Posts
 We Maru fans have more difficult times because our guy sometimes lose On the other hand Serral fans only sweat in mirror match-ups when it's balanced game  | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On May 14 2024 16:50 Harris1st wrote: Those two statements don't directly contradict each other though: First statement: The timeframe:6 years the statement was "in this timeframe Serral does better (than anyone else?) against any korean player" Your statement: your timeframe: A rainy night with a fullmoon and a yellow cab was driving by the statement: he (serral) does not because he lost a game in that timeframe I have no idea what you're saying. My examples span across 1~2 years with Serral suffering several one-sided losses. It was hardly a case of him "losing a game on a rainy night". | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On May 14 2024 17:46 goldensail wrote: I have no idea what you're saying. My examples span across 1~2 years with Serral suffering several one-sided losses. It was hardly a case of him "losing a game on a rainy night". On May 14 2024 16:33 goldensail wrote: His statement was "Serral does better against any korean player that has touched the game in the last 6 years." I showed periods of time within 6 years when that's not true. Great, you guys can agree. It seems like you just misinterpreted his sentence. He's saying that anyone whose played in the last six years, Serral has a winning record against him. He's not saying throughout those six years Serral has maintained a winning record at all periods of time. | ||
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