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Northern Ireland25118 Posts
On February 14 2024 12:28 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 11:51 WombaT wrote:On February 14 2024 11:02 rwala wrote:On February 14 2024 02:43 FFXthebest wrote:On February 14 2024 01:22 CerebrateHector wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe, get a Raven ??? Funny how toss and Zergs constantly have to bring detection everywhere because of widow mines and ghost. Yet terran think they are entitled to not do the same In case terrans are wondering, yes protoss also has the bring observers constantly against Zerg’s infestor ( yes it can also do game ending damage to the toss) But do you see Protoss complaining about infestor? I actually think this Raven point is a good one because I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask Terran to have to constantly scan their army and/or build turrets everywhere to not die to burrow infestor. But it may be reasonable to expect Terran to build a couple ravens. I *think* the reason it’s not is that when your ravens inevitably die, it probably means one or more of your medivacs died, and you can’t reactor out new medivacs while building a new raven without also disrupting tank production since you’ll need one of the factory tech labs unless somehow you’re also playing marauder tech. Not sure all this tech switching is viable versus Zerg remax. Just have an extra Starport with a tech lab. Worst case scenario you can swap it out, or alternatively you have 3x medivac production if you don’t need a raven for infestors. I have seen some experimentation, and I get there’s less synergy than straight MMM(+M), it seems to me that Ravens would hugely pay off economically by letting you clear creep without burning scans so you can mule that much harder. Plus, in TvZ at least they’re pretty untouchable with a bit of babysitting until hydras are out. Plus you can do harassment with them. At the tip top level you’ll probably get more done with auto-turrets than non-range libs. Hey, there must be a reason, maybe it’s just too awkward to fit in. Do it early and it’s delaying medivacs and your ability to pressure, too late and it’s too risky to have out on the same field as hydras and whatnot. Something that drives me insane about the game, going back to the first point is people set up for optimal production for a predicted level of income. Which is fine, makes sense obviously to some degree. But it leaves gaps for specific situations, this would be one. I feel the biggest is when Toss need both an obs for detection, and some kind of power unit from a robo, or a prism. But are frequently bottlenecked on one robo. You don’t have to constantly pump out units from double robo, but it helps to have the option for an emergency. I mean players will happily gamble on expensive doom drops, build a million missile turrets, or sac 10-15 zealots on runbys that don’t do anything, what’s the extra cost of a single additional production building, even if it does turn out to be redundant? I think I'm persuaded by this. I wouldn't be in favor of further burrow infestor nerf until there was some demonstrated case that raven play is not a viable counter.
I honestly think the main impediment is just how difficult it is to do, and we’ll rarely see it be as effective as Serral showed versus Maru
But, failing that I do wanna give it some time, see what the Terran lads come up with. And it may push the meta forwards in a good direction, necessity being the mother of invention and all that. I think the Raven is sorely underutilised and has a lot of potential utility, maybe people getting them as counter-play may see further things unlocked.
Hell if memory serves ghosts were initially really only made in TvZ for their anti-casting role, until people started to realise their ability to cloak, their relative tankiness and especially snipe made them a great option in a combat capacity as well.
I mean I thought Toss was out of ideas and shit out of luck in PvZ and the madman herO just decided to build oracles, stalkers and expand at the same pace, if not faster than the Zergs he was facing.
The collective have certainly mapped out a lot of the game, but there’s still discoveries to be made even now, which is pretty cool to think of
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I love this.
Ghosts counter Hydras, Lurkers, Ultras, Brood Lords, Vipers, Corrupters, and unborrowed Infestors. Lings and banes are not particularly strong against them. Even the unit that is able to detect cloaked ghosts is often easily sniped by them.
Then someone uses a difficult to execute strategy to partially counter them and the thought is that strategy should be nerfed. Great terran logic.
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On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines
It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem
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On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem
So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts.
Cool.
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On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem
Become meta? It's literally the only way Zergs have been trading efficiently enough to win against Terran in late-game since the patch (assuming they enter on somewhat even footing). What you mean is--Serral beat Maru and used it to win one game where the map was mined out, so must needs nerfz.
The fact that a write-up has been conspicuously absent both years Serral won Katowice says it all. It'd be like ESPN not acknowledging that the Chiefs won the Super Bowl. You can argue that we're not entitled to an article (I guess?), but it's pretty clear why there isn't one. Incredibly embarrassing from this site, honestly, considering that Serral is a transcendent player that's driven so much excitement for this game. And by all accounts, a super nice guy that's always engaged with fans and did so again after his victory.
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On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem
All those scans cost Way Too Much Money. Next they're going to want terran to use actual workers to mine out bases in a regular time frame like the other two races. Can you imagine?
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On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool.
Dark. But even if you disagree, you're effectively arguing that reapers should be reverted (everyone acknowledged Byun was literally the single human who could use reapers in the masterful way he did). So think about whether you're comfortable with that.
On ghost counters, I don't get this argument. Ghosts were counterable before their recent nerf with back-of-army infestor pull-up fungals, broods, and ling-bane-lurker. We don't need to speculate about this, we can just look at all the titles Serral, Reynor, Dark, Rogue, Solar, etc. won against late game ghost play. They even won against the ridiculous mass ghost strats that got popular in the last few years. I support the ghost nerfs, but ghosts were countable pre-nerf with the above-described tactics, and that's definitely still the case now post-nerf without needing to have a cloaked spellcaster that can create game-ending damage basically embedded with your opponent's army.
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On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool.
Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong.
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On February 15 2024 15:52 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Dark. But even if you disagree, you're effectively arguing that reapers should be reverted (everyone acknowledged Byun was literally the single human who could use reapers in the masterful way he did). So think about whether you're comfortable with that. On ghost counters, I don't get this argument. Ghosts were counterable before their recent nerf with back-of-army infestor pull-up fungals, broods, and ling-bane-lurker. We don't need to speculate about this, we can just look at all the titles Serral, Reynor, Dark, Rogue, Solar, etc. won against late game ghost play. They even won against the ridiculous mass ghost strats that got popular in the last few years. I support the ghost nerfs, but ghosts were countable pre-nerf with the above-described tactics, and that's definitely still the case now post-nerf without needing to have a cloaked spellcaster that can create game-ending damage basically embedded with your opponent's army.
You're talking about different metas, different map pools, different patches where banelings had more hp and broodlords traded differently, fungal had 10 range and upgraded lurkers were faster, so the interactions aren't the same as they are now. Games on this map pool in ZvT tend to go longer due to the size/configuration.
In this patch, if you get behind as Zerg or enter on even-footing against Clem/Maru once they hit the mass ghost/lib stage, how exactly do you trade effectively without landing fungals? How many times have you seen Dark get ground to dust against Maru in the late game? Clem beat Serral 3-1 at Atlanta in large part because Serral couldn't find any openings with his infestors and had to head-butt repeatedly into entrenched positions. How many insane fungals did Serral land against Maru in g2? And he still barely scraped to victory in a map that was completely mined out. Finally, I repeat--that was ONE game.
My primary point--if Dark had won in the exact same circumstances (however unlikely) against Maru, this topic would not exist.
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On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong.
Pretty sure every one of them didn't have any of their eyes opened; however, it's not Serral's fault they can't reach the same game state where they can even attempt to replicate it.
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Northern Ireland25118 Posts
On February 15 2024 15:52 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Dark. But even if you disagree, you're effectively arguing that reapers should be reverted (everyone acknowledged Byun was literally the single human who could use reapers in the masterful way he did). So think about whether you're comfortable with that. On ghost counters, I don't get this argument. Ghosts were counterable before their recent nerf with back-of-army infestor pull-up fungals, broods, and ling-bane-lurker. We don't need to speculate about this, we can just look at all the titles Serral, Reynor, Dark, Rogue, Solar, etc. won against late game ghost play. They even won against the ridiculous mass ghost strats that got popular in the last few years. I support the ghost nerfs, but ghosts were countable pre-nerf with the above-described tactics, and that's definitely still the case now post-nerf without needing to have a cloaked spellcaster that can create game-ending damage basically embedded with your opponent's army.
I don’t think it’s that relevant how few people can execute a strat, tactic or technique, the pertinent factors for me are:
1. Is it counterable? And is the counterplay at least reasonably equivalent to execute compared to the opponent’s effort put in employing it?
2. Is it the kind of unit interaction that you want to see? (Extremely, extremely subjective)
Byun’s reapers were during my one real hiatus from following the game, and I’m sure it was pretty hype at the time, and subsequently watching it it’s a godlike feat of micro.
But, on the flipside once the novelty of observing such fantastic control, if your counter in many instances is ‘hope Byun messes up his control’, you don’t really have that effective counterplay in your locker. Plus it’s kinda fundamentally silly to me to have a scout/skirmish unit just be massed and snowball provided sufficient control is there.
For me with this Infestor play it’s also hard to execute, but primarily because it’s one of many other things you’re trying to manage. There may yet be effective counterplay to be discovered, and fundamentally I quite like the play, where Zergs have been pushed to work out how to jump on Bio/Ghost balls without being kited to death and trading horribly. Which they’ve found, now the ball has been passed to Terran to counter this tactic.
If over time it starts to be very common and oppressive and Terrans just cant figure consistent counters, as I’ve said before I’m not against some minor tweaks, perhaps to visibility, perhaps Infestors are only visually invisible if they’re stationary, perhaps a very slight delay on cast post-burrow. There’s plenty there as a suitable candidate.
It would be something of a shame though if a pretty nifty tactical innovation got nuked before that process played out.
I’m not a betting man but I’m definitely one for predictions! I think we’ll see some continued success from the Serrals of this world, but Terrans will be more wise to it. Even with those top guys you’ll probably see some games where through improved star sense or blind luck, 15/20 Infestors get spotted and wiped before they can spring a good trap. And probably a whole load of lesser Zergs not quite getting the splitting/army movement and syncing down to make much use of it.
And ultimately it’s less of a ZvT strat so much as an anti-Maru (and Clem to a slightly lesser degree ) innovation anyway. Other players aren’t consistently able to even get to the split-map/borderline split phase in a good position, nor execute that defensive attritional style to the requisite level. I’m slightly exaggerating but it’s almost like nerfing one dude for something he only needs to get out of the locker to beat 2 other dudes with
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Northern Ireland25118 Posts
On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong.
Reynor on song, versus a Maru or a Clem who’s playing well is IMO the one who could replicate it in its totality.
Dark’s spellcaster control is godlike, he’s one of the all-time greats but he just can’t keep up with Maru if it goes lategame, demonstrably in the last couple of years. Ninja InfestorsTM are only really that deadly if you can do a 1-2 punch with banes, and he frequently doesn’t even play ling/bane to begin with. He usually cuts a bit of eco, often goes roach/ravager and tries to cripple his opponents a bit earlier. Which works against most but against the Marus of the world what usually happens is he doesn’t manage it, and starts to bleed out. Sometimes he doesn’t even have the eco advantage where he can win with inefficient trades.
Solar’s an excellent player, he’s just not quite a Serral. While he could employ some Ninja Infestors, can he keep up with everything else? Him versus Maru is one of the more one-sided rivalries in SC2 history and while my recollection may be flawed, almost every game in my mind’s eye is Maru just breaking him before even getting to that really late game phase.
I mean obviously a ton of players could shark some Infestors around and employ the tactic, but can they make it even a relevant factor versus a Maru/Clem on song? Keep up trying to do other offensive moves, not trade too badly and keep up their macro/creepsread and defend against harsssment and pokes?
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On February 15 2024 17:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong. Reynor on song, versus a Maru or a Clem who’s playing well is IMO the one who could replicate it in its totality. Dark’s spellcaster control is godlike, he’s one of the all-time greats but he just can’t keep up with Maru if it goes lategame, demonstrably in the last couple of years. Ninja InfestorsTM are only really that deadly if you can do a 1-2 punch with banes, and he frequently doesn’t even play ling/bane to begin with. He usually cuts a bit of eco, often goes roach/ravager and tries to cripple his opponents a bit earlier. Which works against most but against the Marus of the world what usually happens is he doesn’t manage it, and starts to bleed out. Sometimes he doesn’t even have the eco advantage where he can win with inefficient trades. Solar’s an excellent player, he’s just not quite a Serral. While he could employ some Ninja Infestors, can he keep up with everything else? Him versus Maru is one of the more one-sided rivalries in SC2 history and while my recollection may be flawed, almost every game in my mind’s eye is Maru just breaking him before even getting to that really late game phase. I mean obviously a ton of players could shark some Infestors around and employ the tactic, but can they make it even a relevant factor versus a Maru/Clem on song? Keep up trying to do other offensive moves, not trade too badly and keep up their macro/creepsread and defend against harsssment and pokes?
Gratz to 20k posts
They are not Ninja Infestors! Stop introducing new words while Sharkfestor is already established 
I even had the Shark sound (is it from the great white? not sure but you know what I mean. Dum dum, dum dum, dum dum) in my head watching these games
On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong.
I'm serious in telling you nobody can do what Serral did in that game. Kind of the reason he is the best and he won
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Northern Ireland25118 Posts
On February 15 2024 17:50 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 17:09 WombaT wrote:On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong. Reynor on song, versus a Maru or a Clem who’s playing well is IMO the one who could replicate it in its totality. Dark’s spellcaster control is godlike, he’s one of the all-time greats but he just can’t keep up with Maru if it goes lategame, demonstrably in the last couple of years. Ninja InfestorsTM are only really that deadly if you can do a 1-2 punch with banes, and he frequently doesn’t even play ling/bane to begin with. He usually cuts a bit of eco, often goes roach/ravager and tries to cripple his opponents a bit earlier. Which works against most but against the Marus of the world what usually happens is he doesn’t manage it, and starts to bleed out. Sometimes he doesn’t even have the eco advantage where he can win with inefficient trades. Solar’s an excellent player, he’s just not quite a Serral. While he could employ some Ninja Infestors, can he keep up with everything else? Him versus Maru is one of the more one-sided rivalries in SC2 history and while my recollection may be flawed, almost every game in my mind’s eye is Maru just breaking him before even getting to that really late game phase. I mean obviously a ton of players could shark some Infestors around and employ the tactic, but can they make it even a relevant factor versus a Maru/Clem on song? Keep up trying to do other offensive moves, not trade too badly and keep up their macro/creepsread and defend against harsssment and pokes? Gratz to 20k posts They are not Ninja Infestors! Stop introducing new words while Sharkfestor is already established I even had the Shark sound (is it from the great white? not sure but you know what I mean. Dum dum, dum dum, dum dum) in my head watching these games Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong. I'm serious in telling you nobody can do what Serral did in that game. Kind of the reason he is the best and he won
Merci beaucoup! I mean if you can’t spend your 20k post trying to ninja in a clearly inferior bit of slang what can you use it for? Also may have ninjas on the brain as the Turtles are currently in Fortnite and kiddo is rather enjoying playing that with me.
I feel the perfect sound effect combo is the Jaws theme while they’re ninjaing sharking about, with the Metal Gear alert sound when it pops up and fungals.
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On February 15 2024 16:24 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 15:52 rwala wrote:On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Dark. But even if you disagree, you're effectively arguing that reapers should be reverted (everyone acknowledged Byun was literally the single human who could use reapers in the masterful way he did). So think about whether you're comfortable with that. On ghost counters, I don't get this argument. Ghosts were counterable before their recent nerf with back-of-army infestor pull-up fungals, broods, and ling-bane-lurker. We don't need to speculate about this, we can just look at all the titles Serral, Reynor, Dark, Rogue, Solar, etc. won against late game ghost play. They even won against the ridiculous mass ghost strats that got popular in the last few years. I support the ghost nerfs, but ghosts were countable pre-nerf with the above-described tactics, and that's definitely still the case now post-nerf without needing to have a cloaked spellcaster that can create game-ending damage basically embedded with your opponent's army. You're talking about different metas, different map pools, different patches where banelings had more hp and broodlords traded differently, fungal had 10 range and upgraded lurkers were faster, so the interactions aren't the same as they are now. Games on this map pool in ZvT tend to go longer due to the size/configuration. In this patch, if you get behind as Zerg or enter on even-footing against Clem/Maru once they hit the mass ghost/lib stage, how exactly do you trade effectively without landing fungals? How many times have you seen Dark get ground to dust against Maru in the late game? Clem beat Serral 3-1 at Atlanta in large part because Serral couldn't find any openings with his infestors and had to head-butt repeatedly into entrenched positions. How many insane fungals did Serral land against Maru in g2? And he still barely scraped to victory in a map that was completely mined out. Finally, I repeat--that was ONE game. My primary point--if Dark had won in the exact same circumstances (however unlikely) against Maru, this topic would not exist.
It’s hard to take this analysis seriously when the original claim is about ghosts being uncounterable, and you don’t even mention the ghost nerfs.
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On February 15 2024 17:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong. Reynor on song, versus a Maru or a Clem who’s playing well is IMO the one who could replicate it in its totality. Dark’s spellcaster control is godlike, he’s one of the all-time greats but he just can’t keep up with Maru if it goes lategame, demonstrably in the last couple of years. Ninja InfestorsTM are only really that deadly if you can do a 1-2 punch with banes, and he frequently doesn’t even play ling/bane to begin with. He usually cuts a bit of eco, often goes roach/ravager and tries to cripple his opponents a bit earlier. Which works against most but against the Marus of the world what usually happens is he doesn’t manage it, and starts to bleed out. Sometimes he doesn’t even have the eco advantage where he can win with inefficient trades. Solar’s an excellent player, he’s just not quite a Serral. While he could employ some Ninja Infestors, can he keep up with everything else? Him versus Maru is one of the more one-sided rivalries in SC2 history and while my recollection may be flawed, almost every game in my mind’s eye is Maru just breaking him before even getting to that really late game phase. I mean obviously a ton of players could shark some Infestors around and employ the tactic, but can they make it even a relevant factor versus a Maru/Clem on song? Keep up trying to do other offensive moves, not trade too badly and keep up their macro/creepsread and defend against harsssment and pokes?
Dark’s infestor control is legendary to the point where he’s been meme’ing on threads like this by sharkfestoring neural to emp the Terran’s ghosts and generally destroying entire armies (whether T or P) for a couple years now. But like I said, even if you disagree and think Serral is in a class of his own with sharkfestor usage, you’re basically arguing to revert reapers so Byun can abuse them again.
I honestly don’t think people in this thread have really thought through the logic of what they are saying. One the one hand, apparently ghosts are not counterable without Serral’s sharkfestor usage, ignoring all the ways in which non-Serral Zergs have countered the new heavily nerfed ghosts. On the other hand, apparently only Serral has the tactical and mechanical prowess to use sharkfestor in this highly abusive manner, which is okay in way that Byun’s reapers were not because…?
Once you acknowledge the cognitive dissonance, there’s a legitimate convo to be had here that actually gets into the weeds on how these unit interactions work and whether there’s a more stable and interesting ZvT meta that doesn’t require lategame to devolve into a hide-and-seek mini game with sharkfestors.
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Just make Sensor Towers show a red indicator on the minimap also for burrowed/cloaked units, this way Terran needs to invest in a forward-positioned Sensor Tower and defend it, but it still would allow for some more defensive positional play as you at least are made aware of the threat of such a unit in the tower radius, but would still require you to actually detect them in order to attack, thus eliminating the element of luck/trial & error, so allowing for a more efficient spending of scans/opt for other means of detection.
I'd call that a great compensation for trash Raven (compared to the good old days of HSM and PDD) and the stationary no-skill mode for Observers and Overseers!
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Northern Ireland25118 Posts
On February 15 2024 22:29 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 17:09 WombaT wrote:On February 15 2024 16:19 Drahkn wrote:On February 15 2024 13:13 Balnazza wrote:On February 15 2024 12:48 Drahkn wrote:On February 13 2024 05:29 FFXthebest wrote:
Cool name another Zerg that does this infestor plays as good as Serral or even 50% as good
High skill play gets high reward, unlike widow mines It is gonna become meta unless nerfed and Terrans are gonna have to invest way to much money into covering the threat of a single infestor that might or might not appear surely you can see the problem So you neither can name another Zerg who used these as masterful as Serral did in Katowice, nor can't you explain how Zerg is ever supposed to counter Ghosts. Cool. Are you seriously gonna tell me players like Reynor, Dark , Solar etc are unable to do what Serral did with infestors? Serral is leading the way to what is possible because he is the best Zerg right now. All Serral is doing is opening their eyes to what is possible and opening our eyes to what is obviously way to strong. Reynor on song, versus a Maru or a Clem who’s playing well is IMO the one who could replicate it in its totality. Dark’s spellcaster control is godlike, he’s one of the all-time greats but he just can’t keep up with Maru if it goes lategame, demonstrably in the last couple of years. Ninja InfestorsTM are only really that deadly if you can do a 1-2 punch with banes, and he frequently doesn’t even play ling/bane to begin with. He usually cuts a bit of eco, often goes roach/ravager and tries to cripple his opponents a bit earlier. Which works against most but against the Marus of the world what usually happens is he doesn’t manage it, and starts to bleed out. Sometimes he doesn’t even have the eco advantage where he can win with inefficient trades. Solar’s an excellent player, he’s just not quite a Serral. While he could employ some Ninja Infestors, can he keep up with everything else? Him versus Maru is one of the more one-sided rivalries in SC2 history and while my recollection may be flawed, almost every game in my mind’s eye is Maru just breaking him before even getting to that really late game phase. I mean obviously a ton of players could shark some Infestors around and employ the tactic, but can they make it even a relevant factor versus a Maru/Clem on song? Keep up trying to do other offensive moves, not trade too badly and keep up their macro/creepsread and defend against harsssment and pokes? Dark’s infestor control is legendary to the point where he’s been meme’ing on threads like this by sharkfestoring neural to emp the Terran’s ghosts and generally destroying entire armies (whether T or P) for a couple years now. But like I said, even if you disagree and think Serral is in a class of his own with sharkfestor usage, you’re basically arguing to revert reapers so Byun can abuse them again. I honestly don’t think people in this thread have really thought through the logic of what they are saying. One the one hand, apparently ghosts are not counterable without Serral’s sharkfestor usage, ignoring all the ways in which non-Serral Zergs have countered the new heavily nerfed ghosts. On the other hand, apparently only Serral has the tactical and mechanical prowess to use sharkfestor in this highly abusive manner, which is okay in way that Byun’s reapers were not because…? Once you acknowledge the cognitive dissonance, there’s a legitimate convo to be had here that actually gets into the weeds on how these unit interactions work and whether there’s a more stable and interesting ZvT meta that doesn’t require lategame to devolve into a hide-and-seek mini game with sharkfestors.
There’s nothing contradictory in anything I said, I thought I was pretty clear with my breakdown.
Ninja Infestors sharkfestors are mere a piece of a lategame puzzle that basically 100% require you to enter lategame playing a certain style, and avoiding too much damage economically so you’re at the very least even, although ideally ahead. The positioning and army movement isn’t trivial, but the real difficulty is just being in the position versus a Maru that it’s even a worthwhile move doing
And which was kept at least somewhat in the pocket for Katowice, where it had great success sure but its early doors.
Byun’s reapers was like build one unit, micro, profit. Like, huge props to Byun’s skill here but if the counterplay is ‘hope Byun messes up his micro’ and just the innate silliness of massing reapers actually being viable, it was a fair nerf.
When Parting’s ‘Soul Train’ basically never failed, it was a little of the same to me, except there were no obvious nerfs that wouldn’t cripple Protoss at the time. Either he got blind-countered, or if he executed to his level he just won. I’m sure a game exists where someone actually held it through some stellar control or some ingenious move, but that was broadly the pattern.
I don’t think sharkfestors are, as yet really comparable. There’s plenty of theoretical counterplay to be explored.
Ghosts weren’t unbeatable either, although they are hard to beat! But I think the last few tweaks but them in a more reasonable shape for the matchup. If sharkfestors start dominating the meta, then likewise tone them down a bit.
I think all but the most crazily biased Serral fans would observe that Serral was just straight up dead in the Katowice finals game 2 if sharkfestors weren’t a thing, despite playing very well.
It’s just rare you get two players of their respective levels, both playing super well and it stretching that long with neither breaking. And you may have a double dissatisfactory scenario where even a player as good as Serral can’t break a player of Maru’s calibre when he’s really set up without [s]ninja[/]sharkfestors in that super late game split map scenario, but even a player of Maru’s calibre can’t effectively counter sharkninjafestors when wielder by a Serral.
Neither of which I find particularly great as scenarios go, but I am reserving judgement to see what people come up with.
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Northern Ireland25118 Posts
On February 15 2024 22:56 Creager wrote:
Just make Sensor Towers show a red indicator on the minimap also for burrowed/cloaked units, this way Terran needs to invest in a forward-positioned Sensor Tower and defend it, but it still would allow for some more defensive positional play as you at least are made aware of the threat of such a unit in the tower radius, but would still require you to actually detect them in order to attack, thus eliminating the element of luck/trial & error, so allowing for a more efficient spending of scans/opt for other means of detection.
I'd call that a great compensation for trash Raven (compared to the good old days of HSM and PDD) and the stationary no-skill mode for Observers and Overseers!
It’s also a great way to make an offensive spotting observer pretty close to useless against all but the least observant Terrans. And lategame DTs about as useful as a lace condom.
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EPT
