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Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On February 01 2024 12:48 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2024 12:07 yezzir88 wrote:
Still more prestigious than Katowice or WCS. One GSL Code S trumps 2 WCS/Katowice/Blizzcon. Scarlett, Spirit, Heromarine, trigger: Atleast three of them will make more money with one day of Katowice than the winner of the next GSL season (crowdfunding not included ofc). You *might* want to re-evaluate your copium buddy...
I mean their initial comment was hyperbolic in the extreme, but equally money can buy many things but prestigious tournament status is not one of em, so I’d disagree with that element of your response.
For me a Starleague is borderline equivalent with a Katowice/Blizzcon, at least historically. On the one hand you have fewer shots at a WC (historically anyway) and you gotta bring your A game and peak at the right time, on the other you have the elite players of the game and their teammates/friends prepping to specifically snipe you and have to plan accordingly.
It’s really a crying shame that the Korean scene is being left to wither on the vine, and rather short-sighted.
I’m pretty vocal in (generally, some specifics I’m not a fan of) praising the efforts to give foreigners a better platform and structure to develop and challenge the Korean top dogs, but once that was sorted it feels there’s been an organisational fuck you to Korea.
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On February 01 2024 13:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2024 12:48 Balnazza wrote:On February 01 2024 12:07 yezzir88 wrote:
Still more prestigious than Katowice or WCS. One GSL Code S trumps 2 WCS/Katowice/Blizzcon. Scarlett, Spirit, Heromarine, trigger: Atleast three of them will make more money with one day of Katowice than the winner of the next GSL season (crowdfunding not included ofc). You *might* want to re-evaluate your copium buddy... I mean their initial comment was hyperbolic in the extreme, but equally money can buy many things but prestigious tournament status is not one of em, so I’d disagree with that element of your response. For me a Starleague is borderline equivalent with a Katowice/Blizzcon, at least historically. On the one hand you have fewer shots at a WC (historically anyway) and you gotta bring your A game and peak at the right time, on the other you have the elite players of the game and their teammates/friends prepping to specifically snipe you and have to plan accordingly. It’s really a crying shame that the Korean scene is being left to wither on the vine, and rather short-sighted. I’m pretty vocal in (generally, some specifics I’m not a fan of) praising the efforts to give foreigners a better platform and structure to develop and challenge the Korean top dogs, but once that was sorted it feels there’s been an organisational fuck you to Korea.
Prestige and money are not the same, that is right. But at some point the discrepancy becomes so large that you have to atleast adjust expectations.
I'm really not trying to diss GSL and I'm glad it is still around, but if anyone actually thinks winning this is "as prestigious as winning two WCS/Katowice"...that's just delusional, sorry. In reality, GSL is just the fourth regional, with the ironic discrepancy of being probably still the strongest region while at the same time giving out the least amount of money, though that is of course assuming that ESL won't downsize (or outright shutdown) after Gamers8 aswell.
I would personally say that in terms of prestige the ESL Masters trumps GSL. Katowice and the World Championships are miles ahead of it. Korea might still be the strongest region, but the ESL Masters clearly present a stronger field of participants.
Anyway, I'm honestly sorry for even falling for that bait, lets move on
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On February 01 2024 01:56 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2024 00:42 Nakajin wrote:
14 years and counting! We just passed BW's OSL run, who's the dead game in Korea now!?
(It's us, I know) Both of them, tbh. I'll admit although I hadn't given it much thought, in retrospect I'd have expected no GSL this year, so good news I suppose, however downsized it may be.
big true. artosis, and i love him, loves to say how SC is doing great in korea but its only continued to shrink. Anyone who's followed the pc bank rankings somewhat regularly knows it only gotten lower and lower of a percentage of players. It is somewhat stable, but definitely not growing, and in fact slowly shrinking. only about 2% of all players in a pc bang are playing starcraft. where as over 40% are playing league of legends. heck, even maple story is more popular in korea than starcraft. https://www.gametrics.com/rank/Rank02.aspx basically, starcraft has a big problem where its not getting any new players.
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France12839 Posts
On February 01 2024 16:16 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2024 01:56 Durnuu wrote:On February 01 2024 00:42 Nakajin wrote:
14 years and counting! We just passed BW's OSL run, who's the dead game in Korea now!?
(It's us, I know) Both of them, tbh. I'll admit although I hadn't given it much thought, in retrospect I'd have expected no GSL this year, so good news I suppose, however downsized it may be. big true. artosis, and i love him, loves to say how SC is doing great in korea but its only continued to shrink. Anyone who's followed the pc bank rankings somewhat regularly knows it only gotten lower and lower of a percentage of players. It is somewhat stable, but definitely not growing, and in fact slowly shrinking. only about 2% of all players in a pc bang are playing starcraft. where as over 40% are playing league of legends. heck, even maple story is more popular in korea than starcraft. https://www.gametrics.com/rank/Rank02.aspx basically, starcraft has a big problem where its not getting any new players.
It’s got to be expected though, StarCraft is one of the old games, where you build a game, maybe apply a patch or two, then leave it like that forever. The fact that some people still play it two decades later is a testimony to how great it is.
League of legends is one of the new games, which is meant to stay forever with new champions / skins / patchs each and every year, so it’s easier to retain players
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I'm in Korea until May so i'm excited I'll get another chance to visit before I leave.
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gsl isnt what it ones was.
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On February 01 2024 07:40 CMS_Flash wrote:
Why have a limit for Patreon? I will double my donation if you have no limit! I would support AfreecaTV to take 10% of Patreon donations to cover their production costs as well!
I reckon the patreon funds are already being tapped to fund production or to provide necessary upside to secure funding.
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On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was.
The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean?
If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor.
Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol.
But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years.
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On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years.
Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years.
Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32.
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On February 10 2024 22:29 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was. The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years. Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years. Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32.
The bigger concern is that there's no new blood in the Korean scene. Like almost all the players in GSL have been playing since WotL early 2013 by the latest with the sole exception of Nightmare who probably started in HotS around 2013/2014 and is incidentally the youngest at age 24 (Nightmare GOAT in 5 years?).
This problem also extends to the foreign scene, where almost all the foreign players started playing SC2 since 2012/2013 with exceptions of Oliveira who started in 2014 and trigger who shockingly started in LotV ~2019/2020 and is also the youngest player at 21 (trigger foreigner GOAT inc).
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On February 10 2024 22:29 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was. The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years. Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years. Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32.
Nah its different with ASL, BW. You can get up to 200k+ viewers to watch BW and the guy who sponsors these loves BW and is a COO of Afreeca. No one really knows that GSL is even played. It probably will face certain death after 2 years.
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On February 10 2024 22:29 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was. The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years. Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years. Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32.
Yeah, fingers crossed for GSL to make it a lot further.
Right, the way I phrased the "dinosaurs" sentence is a bit unclear. I agree 21 y.o. is not considered old, like Trigger/Reynor/Clem. What I meant to say was that since the average age at IEM Katowice is 26.6, "most" or the majority of the players now (mostly >26) would be considered "dinosaurs" back in 2013/14.
Interesting stuff on the GSL 20.4 avg age in 2013 vs 28.7 in 2023.
Though, the best-case scenario is somehow bringing new blood to the scene - super curious if there are any younger players <18, and if so, what got them into SC2. But with the attention span of today's youth of like 6~8 seconds, it might be difficult...
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Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On February 11 2024 12:16 johnnyh123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 22:29 argonautdice wrote:On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was. The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years. Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years. Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32. Yeah, fingers crossed for GSL to make it a lot further. Right, the way I phrased the "dinosaurs" sentence is a bit unclear. I agree 21 y.o. is not considered old, like Trigger/Reynor/Clem. What I meant to say was that since the average age at IEM Katowice is 26.6, "most" or the majority of the players now (mostly >26) would be considered "dinosaurs" back in 2013/14. Interesting stuff on the GSL 20.4 avg age in 2013 vs 28.7 in 2023. Though, the best-case scenario is somehow bringing new blood to the scene - super curious if there are any younger players <18, and if so, what got them into SC2. But with the attention span of today's youth of like 6~8 seconds, it might be difficult...
I think that’s as much a mistake people made assuming that eSports players would peak and wash out in their early 20s, without a huge amount of evidence.
But yeah it’s hard to see where the next generation is coming from
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On February 11 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 12:16 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 10 2024 22:29 argonautdice wrote:On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was. The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years. Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years. Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32. Yeah, fingers crossed for GSL to make it a lot further. Right, the way I phrased the "dinosaurs" sentence is a bit unclear. I agree 21 y.o. is not considered old, like Trigger/Reynor/Clem. What I meant to say was that since the average age at IEM Katowice is 26.6, "most" or the majority of the players now (mostly >26) would be considered "dinosaurs" back in 2013/14. Interesting stuff on the GSL 20.4 avg age in 2013 vs 28.7 in 2023. Though, the best-case scenario is somehow bringing new blood to the scene - super curious if there are any younger players <18, and if so, what got them into SC2. But with the attention span of today's youth of like 6~8 seconds, it might be difficult... I think that’s as much a mistake people made assuming that eSports players would peak and wash out in their early 20s, without a huge amount of evidence. But yeah it’s hard to see where the next generation is coming from
I don't think that was a mistake, there are just no players to replace the current generation so they can just keep winning forever.
ByuN and Dark confirmed they feel way slower than they used to
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Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On February 11 2024 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 12:16 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 10 2024 22:29 argonautdice wrote:On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:On February 05 2024 08:15 Riner1212 wrote:
gsl isnt what it ones was. The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years. Yeah and the current ASL 17 lineup for Brood War has an average age of 31.6 years, exactly 5 years older, and it's still going strong and competitive with Afreeca's backing. So if Afreeca can mature their monetization model for GSL and the ESL/WTL system can continue to help support teams, we can still see competitive GSL in 5 years. Edit: actually in 2013 GSL season 1, the average age of the top 16 was 20.4 years old (which was the same average age as top 16 of 2014 GSL S1), so I wouldn't say being 21 was a dinosaur back then. In last the GSL 2023 season 3, the average age was 28.7. So GSL aged 10 years while its average top players aged 8. In 5 years, the average age of GSL players will probably be ~32. Yeah, fingers crossed for GSL to make it a lot further. Right, the way I phrased the "dinosaurs" sentence is a bit unclear. I agree 21 y.o. is not considered old, like Trigger/Reynor/Clem. What I meant to say was that since the average age at IEM Katowice is 26.6, "most" or the majority of the players now (mostly >26) would be considered "dinosaurs" back in 2013/14. Interesting stuff on the GSL 20.4 avg age in 2013 vs 28.7 in 2023. Though, the best-case scenario is somehow bringing new blood to the scene - super curious if there are any younger players <18, and if so, what got them into SC2. But with the attention span of today's youth of like 6~8 seconds, it might be difficult... I think that’s as much a mistake people made assuming that eSports players would peak and wash out in their early 20s, without a huge amount of evidence. But yeah it’s hard to see where the next generation is coming from I don't think that was a mistake, there are just no players to replace the current generation so they can just keep winning forever. ByuN and Dark confirmed they feel way slower than they used to
They don’t exactly look it! But yeah they’re on record and they of course know themselves.
And as someone said if the game was a speed-off Reynor and Clem would be duking it out for every tourney.
The ‘mistake’ I allude to was a quite widespread opinion that progamers would be ‘too old’ at an absurdly low cutoff at times. I think the last 5/6 years showcase that that was incorrect, in a couple of different games.
What has churned people out quite young, historically is probably more injuries and burnout rather than pure age. Dark and Byun have probably lasted as long as they have because they haven’t had to go at 100% the whole time to stay relevant. But as you say, competition is a huge part of that. Dark, Byun/whoever don’t have to push themselves mechanically to that same degree because there’s nobody emerging to push them aside from being relevant.
Perceived wisdom among many back in the day was that even mid-20s was ‘too old’ which was the mistake I was referring to, I agree that the competition contracting is huge. But I mean Serral is 25 now and he’s as mechanically clean a player to observe him as anyone’s been in this game.
If the game was back to peak competition I could see players sticking around 25+ but it would take a huge effort, avoiding injuries and motivational burnout to stay at the top of the tree. Latter day Innovation was still showing plenty of flashes, but it was common knowledge he was no longer hungry for it, but it wasn’t his age holding him back.
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On February 10 2024 12:12 johnnyh123 wrote:The entire SC2 scene isn't what it once was, you mean? If you look at the current 24 IEM Katowice 2024 players, their average age is 26.6 years (just did some quick number crunching - simplified to just their age rounded down, e.g., 26.8 y.o. = 26 y.o., as we conventionally do socially). With the youngest being Trigger, 21 years and 7 months old - 10 days younger than Reynor. Back in the early days, say in 2013, most of them would be considered "Dinosaurs" lol. But hey, we are still here, right? After playing and watching for 13+ years.
The average age of a NBA player is 26.03 years.
This "25 yr old e-sports player is basically a dinosaur!" was always total bs. At least physical ability wise, of course.
The biggest problem of both Starcraft titles is that both 1v1 games and RTS games in particular are just not very popular these days. While 5v5 games are more popular than ever.
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why trim 1 season if crowdfund is a thing
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Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On February 12 2024 03:10 duckTemplar wrote:
why trim 1 season if crowdfund is a thing
I wondered this, can you not launch the Patreon appeal, see how much appetite there is and see if there’s enough to stretch to 3 seasons? If not, so be it.
Instead of limiting the possibility from the start.
If there’s probably one thing people would crowdfund it’s keeping the GSL and Korean scene, especially when it doesn’t get much love from other sources like it used to when Blizzard at least chipped in.
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EPT
