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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On March 16 2023 15:03 JJH777 wrote:
I'm not saying they shouldn't have any rights whatsoever. They should of course be able to take actions to prevent their game from being stolen, copied or illegally distributed (though I do think these rights should have a much shorter time limit than they currently do a few decades should be plenty). But applying those rights to footage of the game is absurd.
I think you hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to say earlier. Both sides were overreaching, and I think if Blizzard had been more reasonable at the start, it would have made KeSPA look really bad. But by trying to insinuate they owned the rights to gameplay footage (which would have been an entire monopoly at that point), it really came off as Blizzard being the big bad corporation trying to push around the little guy.
And of course in the end, players and fans paid the price.
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United States1923 Posts
On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea.
Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas.
All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later).
Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?)
Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all.
The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned.
There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015.
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I disagree with some of the points here, korean sc2 would’ve died regardless of all those events mentioned. LoL is simply more popular, go to south korea and ask around if they know what starcraft is. not many, but a lot more know about LoL
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 17 2023 03:48 Slydie wrote:
Ideally, game studios should not even have to bother about e-sports. Noone "owns" baseball, anyone with a ball, bat and glove can play anywhere they want.
This is the essence of the IP rights discussion. Gaming and esports has voice actors, music, sound effects, people constantly working on the game over multiple years, and more. Gaming and esports will never get here so its pointless to go down this path because it is apples and oranges.
On March 17 2023 03:48 Slydie wrote:
Yes, the game studios still throw a lot of money into e-sports, but gamers is an attractive demographic which is getting older and richer, so it also offers excellent marketing possibilities if you are selling anything gaming related.
I think it was quite clear that SC2 viewership was always too low to sustain the cost of the prize pools and production. The real money was in selling the game itself, unfortunately, but I feel confident that will change in the future.
Marketers want to bring in younger gamers not older ones. Why do you think older franchises like Diablo embrace the battle pass model despite how much older gamers reject it.
There isn't a single esports broadcast that can "sustain" the cost of producing events for the game but it doesn't matter. It's just a different form of marketing for the game and not all forms of marketing can directly sustain. Many more can't even prove that they provide a greater than or equal to zero return on investment ESPECIALLY as it pertains to esports. But when the game cannot possibly make any more money, it doesn't make sense for the business to continue to invest in it.
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On March 15 2023 23:21 Edpayasugo wrote:
Who says INnoVation is coming back?
Inno has been playing in some tournaments lately, and he had a close series vs Dark so he's clearly been practicing. But I haven't heard anything from him about whether he's going full time or not, I've just seen some games on youtube.
http://aligulac.com/players/48-INnoVation/
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On March 17 2023 08:14 Obamarauder wrote:
I disagree with some of the points here, korean sc2 would’ve died regardless of all those events mentioned. LoL is simply more popular, go to south korea and ask around if they know what starcraft is. not many, but a lot more know about LoL
In fact, everybody knows what is StarCraft.
Not many know SC2 tho.
Where do we go from here?
SC:Remastered is a good direction. good luck
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015.
I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene  As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 17 2023 17:50 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2023 08:14 Obamarauder wrote:
I disagree with some of the points here, korean sc2 would’ve died regardless of all those events mentioned. LoL is simply more popular, go to south korea and ask around if they know what starcraft is. not many, but a lot more know about LoL In fact, everybody knows what is StarCraft. Not many know SC2 tho. Where do we go from here? SC:Remastered is a good direction. good luck
can anyone provide evidence that this is true?
when i was in korea, sc2 was on every computer in the LAN cafes we went to. i find it hard to believe that "not many know sc2"
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On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously.
The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene anyway
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On March 18 2023 02:38 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2023 17:50 BlueStar wrote:On March 17 2023 08:14 Obamarauder wrote:
I disagree with some of the points here, korean sc2 would’ve died regardless of all those events mentioned. LoL is simply more popular, go to south korea and ask around if they know what starcraft is. not many, but a lot more know about LoL In fact, everybody knows what is StarCraft. Not many know SC2 tho. Where do we go from here? SC:Remastered is a good direction. good luck can anyone provide evidence that this is true? when i was in korea, sc2 was on every computer in the LAN cafes we went to. i find it hard to believe that "not many know sc2"
I've barely ever seen SC2 on LAN cafes being played by people there when I was there past few years. Maybe it was different in WoL days but it never did have much presence in PC bang population wise
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United States1923 Posts
On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene anyway
Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress.
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On March 18 2023 11:04 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene an.yway Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress.
Favouring certain nationalities is actually the norm in sports, not the exception. The FIFA world cup is one example, geographical variety is valued much higher than level of competition.
For male cross country skiing, the situation is actually in the ballpark of SC2: as a Norwegian, you can be the 10th best in the world with a fair shot at a medal, but still not be allowed into to participate in the world Championship because of other Norwegians ahead of you.
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So I have a question. How is the Korean esports scene business wise? Like I know Korean orgs were dropping like flies for SC2, but I remember reading the Rox Tigers had a terrible time obtaining sponsors. The overall picture I got is that, yeah SC2 was awful for sponsors, but even succesful teams the most popular game in the world at the time was had problems with sponsors. I think the only old Kespa teams still around are KT Rolster and SKT?
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On March 17 2023 05:00 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2023 15:03 JJH777 wrote:
I'm not saying they shouldn't have any rights whatsoever. They should of course be able to take actions to prevent their game from being stolen, copied or illegally distributed (though I do think these rights should have a much shorter time limit than they currently do a few decades should be plenty). But applying those rights to footage of the game is absurd. I think you hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to say earlier. Both sides were overreaching, and I think if Blizzard had been more reasonable at the start, it would have made KeSPA look really bad. But by trying to insinuate they owned the rights to gameplay footage (which would have been an entire monopoly at that point), it really came off as Blizzard being the big bad corporation trying to push around the little guy. And of course in the end, players and fans paid the price.
they do own the rights to game play footage. occasionally , Nintendo asserts these exact rights. Just about every video game streamer lives off of the largesse of the game publisher.
On March 18 2023 15:59 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2023 11:04 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene an.yway Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress. Favouring certain nationalities is actually the norm in sports, not the exception. The FIFA world cup is one example, geographical variety is valued much higher than level of competition. For male cross country skiing, the situation is actually in the ballpark of SC2: as a Norwegian, you can be the 10th best in the world with a fair shot at a medal, but still not be allowed into to participate in the world Championship because of other Norwegians ahead of you.
This same thing happens with Canada in Curling.
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On March 18 2023 15:59 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2023 11:04 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene an.yway Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress. Favouring certain nationalities is actually the norm in sports, not the exception. The FIFA world cup is one example, geographical variety is valued much higher than level of competition. For male cross country skiing, the situation is actually in the ballpark of SC2: as a Norwegian, you can be the 10th best in the world with a fair shot at a medal, but still not be allowed into to participate in the world Championship because of other Norwegians ahead of you.
Korea still got massively favored after the region lock, usually getting 50% of the spots for the global finals. That is much more than for example Europe gets for the upcoming FIFA World Championship (16 of 48), even though Europe is by far the most compettive region in football.
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On March 19 2023 01:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2023 15:59 Slydie wrote:On March 18 2023 11:04 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene an.yway Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress. Favouring certain nationalities is actually the norm in sports, not the exception. The FIFA world cup is one example, geographical variety is valued much higher than level of competition. For male cross country skiing, the situation is actually in the ballpark of SC2: as a Norwegian, you can be the 10th best in the world with a fair shot at a medal, but still not be allowed into to participate in the world Championship because of other Norwegians ahead of you. Korea still got massively favored after the region lock, usually getting 50% of the spots for the global finals. That is much more than for example Europe gets for the upcoming FIFA World Championship (16 of 48), even though Europe is by far the most compettive region in football.
I don't believe Koreans were technically guaranteed 50% of slots with region lock. If any foreigners ever did well enough in GSL to be top 8 in points at the end of the year or outright won a season wouldn't they have taken up one of the KR slots? If Blizzcon didn't end and COVID didn't happen I think there's a pretty good chance that would have happened too.
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On March 19 2023 01:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2023 15:59 Slydie wrote:On March 18 2023 11:04 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene an.yway Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress. Favouring certain nationalities is actually the norm in sports, not the exception. The FIFA world cup is one example, geographical variety is valued much higher than level of competition. For male cross country skiing, the situation is actually in the ballpark of SC2: as a Norwegian, you can be the 10th best in the world with a fair shot at a medal, but still not be allowed into to participate in the world Championship because of other Norwegians ahead of you. Korea still got massively favored after the region lock, usually getting 50% of the spots for the global finals. That is much more than for example Europe gets for the upcoming FIFA World Championship (16 of 48), even though Europe is by far the most compettive region in football.
Yeah Korea, the only region without any region-locked tournaments, was definitely "massively favored" by the region-locking.
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On March 16 2023 18:19 Vasoline73 wrote:
Opinion from a BW fan since 2007 who watched SC2 up until HOTS… it wasn’t as good of a spectator sport. I wanted to like it. I tried to like it. I’m not surprised its dying. I don’t blame Blizzard for trying. BW continues on, I hope SC2 does as well. Speaking as a fan and of course, just imo.
I felt like it was really fun the first few years, but that was maybe more because everything was new. Once the game started to settle into longer-term meta-game cycles, I agree... it wasn't as fun to spectate as BW. You rarely see more than two engagements at a time: a large army battle in the middle somewhere, and maybe a backstab back at one of the player's base. Compare that to BW, where you seemed to have large siege lines, engagements happening at multiple places, lots of space for micro, and more of a "war" feel than just two death balls in the middle of the map poking at each other until a large battle settles the match. There always seemed to be less room for come backs and for the genuine back and forth tug-of-war feel. I know I'm simplifying, but that's kind of how the comparison feels. There's a lot less tension, imo.
That said, idk how much that really impacted things. I think LoL did a lot to kill SC2 in Korea because the game was so much more accessible. So maybe SC2 just failed on both fronts: not as fun to watch as BW, not as fun to play as its competitors, so it kind of failed to find a strong niche.
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On March 19 2023 14:36 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2023 01:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 18 2023 15:59 Slydie wrote:On March 18 2023 11:04 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 18 2023 07:06 Balnazza wrote:On March 17 2023 19:04 deacon.frost wrote:On March 17 2023 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2023 19:57 deacon.frost wrote:On March 16 2023 08:43 Mizenhauer wrote:
Tldr without reading. The game never maintained the popularity blizzard had hoped for in korea. Other games (like lol) were more appealing. Matchfixing didn't help, but influx of new players was already dried up by that point (Last kespa draft was in 2013).
Counterpoint worth making-Region lock worked. Of the two major regions (na/eu and kr) eu and na have a fair number of younger players (late teens/early 20s) that are active in online cups and qualifiers for larger events. This might not have happened without Region lock and, given what we know, its obvious that lining the pockets of the most elite Koreans by allowing them to farm foreigners wouldn't have saved the Korean scene in any way. Since we're in the death of Korean SC2 - region lock didn't work, it killed the Korean SC2 and was a major blow to the B-tier players. So we basically traded NA/EU for Korea, where the SC legacy actually started and was kept. Sure, from the foreigner side it worked, but this is about the death of SC2 in Korea. Why do you think allowing the best Korean players to stomp foreigners at wcs weekenders would have helped Korean sc2? The game wasn't very popular in korea and couldnt compete with titles like lol. new players weren't coming in long before region lock. Proleague was going to end one way or another. In fact, it would have ended earlier if Koreans suddenly started playing overseas. All region lock did was give eu and na a chance of fostering new players, whereas as the Korean side of things had already failed to do so beyond the players who came over with kespa in 2012 (the majority of whom didn't even last until the end of proleague only 4 years later). Most of the "esf new guys" like Maru played bw at a young age. Maru was on skt in brood war as part of one of their lower teams (this is direct from soO). The negative effects of region lock were totally overblown from start. Maybe if blizz had kept wcs as a gsl style tournament it could have been different, but south korea doesn't like sending men who haven't served in the military overseas for months at a time for any reason. (remember how hard it was for TRUE to get a visa to play in the us?) Assuming blizz kept the hots wcs format (and now we're already far removed from reality), having b-tier Koreans win gsl style formats overseas wouldn't have helped the Korean scene either. It would have helped a few players win money, but the issues with the lack of new players, obtaining sponsors for leagues , eventual dissolution of proleague (remember proleague was a league for Korean players, sponsored by Korean companies with ads in Korean for Korean viewers) were going to occur either way. Those were "korean" problems. Having Koreans go to other countries to play wouldn't have helped that at all. The Korean scene was always "doomed", to a degree, for a host of reasons that had nothing to do with region lock. This is coming from someone who exclusively watched Korean sc2 before working for this site and didn't care in the slightest about foreign sc2. I wrote a forum piece in 2019 about how the Korean scene was dying and addressed the lack of new players and other factors the op mentioned. There was no saving South Korean sc2. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because of blizzard adding money to the prize pool. The fact that the eu scene might have actually developed into something small but sustainable is remarkable considering where it was at in 2015. I'm not denying the fact it helped the foreign community, just saying that it did NOT help the Korean scene and we're in a thread about THE KOREAN scene As such it did not work, unless the target was to kill the Korean scene. Then it worked miraculously. The purpose of region lock was to help the other regions, it never was meant to have positive implications for korea. So yes, it worked perfectly and as intended. And it probably did not have much effect on the korean scene, since most players that returned home weren't really a factor, right? So the players "outsourced" to the other regions wouldn't have helped the korean scene an.yway Ding ding. You hit the nail on the head. Not having region lock wouldn't have saved Korean sc2. Inevitability is a cruel mistress. Favouring certain nationalities is actually the norm in sports, not the exception. The FIFA world cup is one example, geographical variety is valued much higher than level of competition. For male cross country skiing, the situation is actually in the ballpark of SC2: as a Norwegian, you can be the 10th best in the world with a fair shot at a medal, but still not be allowed into to participate in the world Championship because of other Norwegians ahead of you. Korea still got massively favored after the region lock, usually getting 50% of the spots for the global finals. That is much more than for example Europe gets for the upcoming FIFA World Championship (16 of 48), even though Europe is by far the most compettive region in football. Yeah Korea, the only region without any region-locked tournaments, was definitely "massively favored" by the region-locking.
Reading comprehension isn't your thing, is it?
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On March 17 2023 09:50 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2023 03:48 Slydie wrote:
Ideally, game studios should not even have to bother about e-sports. Noone "owns" baseball, anyone with a ball, bat and glove can play anywhere they want.
This is the essence of the IP rights discussion. Gaming and esports has voice actors, music, sound effects, people constantly working on the game over multiple years, and more. Gaming and esports will never get here so its pointless to go down this path because it is apples and oranges. Show nested quote +On March 17 2023 03:48 Slydie wrote:
Yes, the game studios still throw a lot of money into e-sports, but gamers is an attractive demographic which is getting older and richer, so it also offers excellent marketing possibilities if you are selling anything gaming related.
I think it was quite clear that SC2 viewership was always too low to sustain the cost of the prize pools and production. The real money was in selling the game itself, unfortunately, but I feel confident that will change in the future. Marketers want to bring in younger gamers not older ones. Why do you think older franchises like Diablo embrace the battle pass model despite how much older gamers reject it. There isn't a single esports broadcast that can "sustain" the cost of producing events for the game but it doesn't matter. It's just a different form of marketing for the game and not all forms of marketing can directly sustain. Many more can't even prove that they provide a greater than or equal to zero return on investment ESPECIALLY as it pertains to esports. But when the game cannot possibly make any more money, it doesn't make sense for the business to continue to invest in it.
Are you really claiming not a single e-sports event is sustainable? I am sorry, that is wrong. Sponsorships, tickets and crowd funding have funded plenty of e-sports events, including broadcast expenses. Maybe the first prize winner wont get millions, but is that even needed?
I think Blizzard messed up their role in the eco-system, trying to get a bigger piece of broadcasting and events organizing, which did not work out. Making SC2 as an e-sport first game was probably even wrong. Both for BW and WC3, most ended up playing MODs anyway, so that+the social aspect was undersold. They did do a nice job with the campaigns and at least kept the map editor, so the game was still a reasonable success after all.
For older vs newer, I think older gamers are underrated as a customer group! Maybe companies want to cater youngsters, but that does not mean they are right. Eventually, I think games should get just as diverse target audiences as movies and TV shows.
What is even the median age of forum members on TL? Probably 30+, with plenty of people 50+.
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EPT
