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On September 24 2007 21:25 flabortaster wrote:
I watch alot. But you have to remeber SC2 is not your precious SC1 it's a new game that keeps in the spirit of the 1st but not making a carbon copy. There are many TvT stalemates. where tanks are positioned everywhere and Terran really have difficulty breaking through tank lines without having to risk their own fragile tanks. Terran don't really have anything in their arsenal to fight off other tanks. They rely on timing and positioning. I believe even the forum vets agree about TvT stalemates...
lol....when did i say SC2 should be a copy of the original? i'm not saying that
i like the idea that the game is evolving and i actually agree with your statemate about blizz making increasing mobility to discourage turtling, but i don't believe it has anything to do with stalemates....any mirror MU in the original is boring at a noob level, but players with increased skill makes all of them interesting imo
and TvT matches are decided by positioning and timing yes but tank lines are fairly easy to break TvT with dropships....you say you watch competitive BW alot but it doesn't quite sound like it, take a look at the TLPD and watch some pro TvTs
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This is a good post. I'm not TOO worried about air simply because if it turns out to be a problem it's easy to nerf air (take your pick out of decreasing HP/damage/speed/more minor things like turn rate/whatever)
Overall I like the idea of the game becoming more mobile because it feels more like STARcraft. But, it's something that will have to be handled with care.
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I build my gates all around the map and it's a part of my strategy. I think this is exciting and will make gameplay much more intense.
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On September 25 2007 02:08 darktreb wrote:
This is a good post. I'm not TOO worried about air simply because if it turns out to be a problem it's easy to nerf air (take your pick out of decreasing HP/damage/speed/more minor things like turn rate/whatever)
Unless all dedicated AA is also aerial. What then? Turn the game into a turret-fest?
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On September 25 2007 03:41 Chodorkovskiy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2007 02:08 darktreb wrote:
This is a good post. I'm not TOO worried about air simply because if it turns out to be a problem it's easy to nerf air (take your pick out of decreasing HP/damage/speed/more minor things like turn rate/whatever) Unless all dedicated AA is also aerial. What then? Turn the game into a turret-fest?
There was no dedicated AA for toss or zerg in sc1, and as such dedicated aa shouldnt be needed to counter air.
We have 2 main types of air, bombers and fighters. Fighters counters bombers, bombers counterr ground and ground counters fighters. Ground should be a much harder counter to fighters than bombers are to ground, and fighters should be quite heavy counter to bomber.
This way we have no dedicated AA ground but still a balance between air and ground.
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i think that now with warp gates you quickly bring in 50 guys, no push will last long if you have hidden expoes.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On September 24 2007 21:25 flabortaster wrote:
I watch alot. But you have to remeber SC2 is not your precious SC1 it's a new game that keeps in the spirit of the 1st but not making a carbon copy. There are many TvT stalemates. where tanks are positioned everywhere and Terran really have difficulty breaking through tank lines without having to risk their own fragile tanks. Terran don't really have anything in their arsenal to fight off other tanks. They rely on timing and positioning. I believe even the forum vets agree about TvT stalemates...
Nope, this isn't 2002. TvT is pretty fast-paced nowadays, there's not a lot of map-dividing tank lines because dropship play has evolved.
Personally I kinda wonder about this, with all these new ways to move troops around without actually moving those troops. Maybe its supposed to encourage aggressiveness, but I think it would do the opposite, with both players sitting around their side of the map trying to sneak troops in with whatever mechanism is available to them. An average player might find it too risky to make his troops walk anywhere because the other guy could be using a phase prism or something at any time. I envision two players sitting around with max supply armies futily attempting to get dropships or drop pods or phase prisms or nydus canals that somehow pop out of the ground (was that what I saw in the first SC2 video?).
But that's just a worst-case scenario, it probably won't be that extreme.
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On September 25 2007 11:02 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2007 21:25 flabortaster wrote:
I watch alot. But you have to remeber SC2 is not your precious SC1 it's a new game that keeps in the spirit of the 1st but not making a carbon copy. There are many TvT stalemates. where tanks are positioned everywhere and Terran really have difficulty breaking through tank lines without having to risk their own fragile tanks. Terran don't really have anything in their arsenal to fight off other tanks. They rely on timing and positioning. I believe even the forum vets agree about TvT stalemates... Nope, this isn't 2002. TvT is pretty fast-paced nowadays, there's not a lot of map-dividing tank lines because dropship play has evolved. Personally I kinda wonder about this, with all these new ways to move troops around without actually moving those troops. Maybe its supposed to encourage aggressiveness, but I think it would do the opposite, with both players sitting around their side of the map trying to sneak troops in with whatever mechanism is available to them. An average player might find it too risky to make his troops walk anywhere because the other guy could be using a phase prism or something at any time. I envision two players sitting around with max supply armies futily attempting to get dropships or drop pods or phase prisms or nydus canals that somehow pop out of the ground (was that what I saw in the first SC2 video?). But that's just a worst-case scenario, it probably won't be that extreme.
If the player's army is unable to move because the other player is able to effectively counter him with superior mobility/positioning, then it's just a difference of skill. Imo it's like a zerg who has a crazy doom drop and the other player unable to attack because of the 'fear' that he'll be dropped by 15 overlords.
Of course, SC2 has already shown us that there are crazy new methods of transport that are 10x more effective than loading up ovies and moving them around the map, but, unless it's insanely cost effective to pull off a phase-prism 'drop', I doubt it would mess up the game significantly. If toss warps in 15 immortals and 12 zealots, that's 15 immortals and 12 zealots that are now unable to defend vs counter attack.
So yeah, your worst case scenario is possible, but all blizzard needs to do is find the right cost to balance these abilities, of which there are many many options. (tech tree depth, individual unit costs, ability costs, ability cast time, etc etc etc)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Skill level has nothing to do with it, you missed the point. A 15 overlord doom drop has signs that give it away and allow a player to prepare for it before he sees the overlords coming. Stuff like Phase Prisms doesn't really take a lot of extra preparation.
Making this stuff easier to do means that more and more games will be decided by 'doom drops' and the like, which is going to promote a more passive playing style.
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Who said it was easier to do? "More options" =! "Easier". The key is finding the right cost/benefit balance to where mass drops are a viable strategy but not clearly superior to all others.
And FWIW, I don't see how Prism + Warp Gates will be any more effective than Recall. Heck, seems like it'll be easier to counter than recall, since Prisms (which are mostly glorified shuttles) will likely have 100-200 hp rather than 400. Add to that the fact that units need to warp in over a second or three rather than instantaneously....
And are we really that worried about a ghost throwing down a drop pod on an expansion? Seems that going that route early will delay other tech (eg, Vessals or tanks or whatever), and after a point, 6 marines just isn't a huge difference.
I like these new options for harassment, and I don't think they'll be hard to balance. But I do agree that map control needs to remain a crucial part of the game. :-)
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Afaik the Phase Prism and gateway/teleport thing as well as nydus worms and shit like drop pods are all way late tier stuff.
So if they do end up getting a proxy production/transport in your base it becomes the 'hero' target. I'm sure there will be a lot of beta playtesting to get this at just the right HP/time/counter etc.
Besides really its no different than that of an arbiter recall or a nydus on your creep in ZvZ. these kinds of moves can be super deadly and worked up into for an entire strat (see nal ra vs goodfried on desert island map)
have some faith
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Btw, its possible that the worm works a bit like the drop pod/warp in and not like the nydus canal. What if you built a zerg building, armed it like a nuke and then put units in it, then you launched it like a droppod but anywere on the map? Or if they are just like buildings you can put units in, and then teleport it around. We dont know how it works, so speculating about it is dumb.
Also its not like phaseprisms + warpgates will conjure an army in no time like the arbs can, you can only get 1 unit per gate and unless you have 70 gates and 10k resources you cant warp in an whole army at once like a few arbs can, and the warpgates are highly visible so your opponent will know that you are capable of warping in 20 units with that phase prism.
In the same way droppods are limited by the number of spec ops you have so its not like your opponent cant scout that you have 10 spec ops and realise whats coming?
Edit: Sorry if this was seen as necroing, i didnt realise it was old untill after i posted >.<
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Basically, that mobility is going to cost extra money. Sure you can get phase prisms and warp gates, but you opponent could just get an extra gateway or two. You have mobility and he has numbers. There's going to be more options, and it's not going to be instant reinforcing for both sides by default.
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What's so wrong with having to make sure you can fight on multiple fronts at the same time? It's wonderful!
Easier UI, but a lot more fights and possibilities. A winner IMO.
No bottling chokes anymore. That is going to make for some fast paced gameplay.
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Agressive play is spectacular but it should not be rewarded more than defensive play. Both styles have the right to exist in SC2.
I think Blizzard must follow the basics of SC, I mean specifically two main armies battling it out. This is the golden standard of any good RTS and must be the standard in SC2.
Harassment and maneuvering are very important but they should not disturb the standard. As long as that is a given I'm fine with drop pods and warp gates.
Lets take PvZ as an example. We see a lot of harassment going on in most of the games. Army vs army is a rarity (well not a raritiy but you know...). But that doesn't mean the armies weren't important, they actually are most important. The main reason we don't see them battling it out all the time is that space can be abused so easily. This is what the army is for: to control space. To stop sneaky moves and such. What I'm trying to say is that if we see 100 times harass and 1 big battle that doesn't mean harassment is more important than battling. It only means that the players decided to use their armies for different things, protecting expansions in that case.
I think Blizzard will do a good job at balancing out harassment.
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On November 23 2007 04:04 ForAdun wrote:
Agressive play is spectacular but it should not be rewarded more than defensive play. Both styles have the right to exist in SC2.
Well, in an RTS with deep strike possibilities, defense is extremely important. As well as scouting, and denying scouting.
Basically, a bit like Mind did to Bisu, if you deny all harassment possibilities with solid defensive play, you're in a good position to win. DoW rewards that, for example. Good IG players strive on it. Good Tau players have to keep it in mind 100% of the time because they have 0 base defense, except crappy LPs (they did get buffed though).
If there are more places to concentrate on, well, different styles will appear for certain. Some will massively harass, some won't as much but will attack with power, some will concentrate on defense and gain the advantage slowly... if done right, of course.
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EPT
