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-Edit-
All you guys missed my point completely. What I am saying is:
"Let us not make a new game, let us not make an old game. We should make a GOOD game. So compliment/criticize on the basis of GOOD vs BAD instead of NEW vs OLD"
Okay?
I've been looking in some threads and there has been alot of "old vs new" debate going on. There are people who wanted to keep everything, more or less the same as bw, and there's people advocating new ideas. While they are both contributing to the final outcome of a Starcraft 2, I do feel some of their arguments(against each other) are unnecessary. I will try to address my personal point of view on this 'old vs new' debate, and hopefully you agree with me.
We all love starcraft, no doubt about it, or we wouldn't be spending our time posting here, reading, and suggesting. We would also love to love starcraft 2 the same way we loved starcraft.
How should we love starcraft 2? Should we love it because it has tons of new features? More units? Let blizzard do their inventive magic? Or should we love it because it has old units, nostalgic memories such as worker drill and julymuta?
I trust that since Starcraft 2 =/= Starcraft, Starcraft 2 should stands on its own as a great game, the way Starcraft did.
Starcraft is a unique game, and every units are consolidated into a distinct character. Take the zealot, Lastromantic takes his zealot, get 1+ and leg upgrade, run around and kill lings by the thousands. He jizz all over himself and feel, "OMFG MANLY". You take your marine, stim it and kill lurkers, you feel "OMFG BOXER". I think most, if not every starcraft unit has a distinct feel of his own character: Dragoon=dumb Ling=psychotic DT=Stealth DA=if used in game ur stylish. And I think it is the 'Character' more than anything else made Starcraft a memorable game.
Now to Starcraft 2, it should also be a unique game, and every units consolidated to a distinct character. I liked Colousus, great giants walking over cliffs and raping low ground units by the dozen. It has that 'feel' to it. It certainly brings a new character to the protoss.
So instead of making posts to scoff the conservative "Just f off and let blizz do the work" or to ridicule the new features "OMFG pew pew laser! MOAR laser!", really think about does the new feature brings a distinctive character to it? Does it bring new possibilities and styles of gaming? Does it feel attached to you personally (i'm very attached to lings and dt, for instance)?"
We are not making Starcraft 1, nor we're making CnC. It is Starcraft 2, it should be a great game that'll stand on its own and the trial of time as SC did.
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agreed but people are still gonna argue regardless (including me).
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On August 19 2007 02:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:
agreed but people are still gonna argue regardless (including me).
I'm not trying to stop argument, I'm trying to make them bit more reasonable. ~+~
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Honestly I think BW has its shares of flaws as well... It's just that we lived with it for ten years so now it looks perfect.
Seriously, look at all the pros who take advantage of BW limitations... proper building placement will yield impassable terrain, yet not only does it LOOK passable, but also try recreating that in a 90 degree rotation and it will yield different results. Then there's the magic box muta stack, the insane things you can do with lifted buildings, etc etc.
They all seem normal now but if pros did not discover them we (the casual gamers) would never have known.
HOWEVER, sometimes designs in SCII are horrible not because that they're new; it's that they look really, really bad. Seriously, the old DT design, albeit small, gave me imaginations of what it would look like in real life. Its long, overflowing cloak, its downwards slash attack, and its simply awesome bad dude 'tude. The new design is wayy too polygonal and the pickaxe swing is.... ugh.
I'm not against new things. The carrier design looks good, the new tank, thor, probes... But just because they're new doesn't mean it's ok for them to suck.
Just my two cents in.
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As long as SC2 is actually SC2 and not SC 1.5 or WC3IS (WarCraft 3 In Space) I'll be content.
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Well the thing is that now is the time to express what you like and what you dont about the game.
Because when it goes into beta, its pretty much over and you gotta stick with what you got and adjust it to be balanced.
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I truely agree with you when you say that we all love the game and thats why we are here. I also believe that Blizzard loves Starcraft and that Blizzard cares about us more than any other gamming company out there cares about any of there fans. As much as I hate to admit it I am hesitant when I see Blizzard make any changes from BW in Starcraft 2, but at the same time I have to understand that SC2 is a new game and it gives you a good feeling inside knowing that Blizzard is listening to us and making changes in SC2 on our demands or opinions.
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Yet people are set on this "if it aint broken, dont fix it" mentality. Yes, BW is an excellent and balanced game. That doesnt mean we have to keep everything from it. Its nearly a decade old, with min. reqs for a 90 mhz machine! We have the means to go well beyond that, and I dont see why a few nostalgics should hold back a true sequel to the game.
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fuck, just release beta, and lets play. blizzard cant balance shit by themselves, after all it was us to played bw for years and blizz patched 1 after the other since we gave them tips on how to balance and bugs.
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I hate lasers -_-;; pew-pew-pew ! how I am supposed to micro that ? :/
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this post sux as much as the others being criticized and closed...
other than that heard if before and we cant say shit anyway till the game is out >.<
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On August 19 2007 04:14 useless wrote:
Yet people are set on this "if it aint broken, dont fix it" mentality. Yes, BW is an excellent and balanced game. That doesnt mean we have to keep everything from it. Its nearly a decade old, with min. reqs for a 90 mhz machine! We have the means to go well beyond that, and I dont see why a few nostalgics should hold back a true sequel to the game.
This.
Blizzard have an impossible job of trying to please hardcore SC:BW players and everyone else.
They've replaced some units with equivalents but have also added new unique units. I think that this is a good approach and I actually hope they add a few more or at least a few new spells.
I also think that the UI upgrades are an improvement (don't crucify me please), an important one that will go a long way to help popularize the game.
It's been said a lot but I want SC2 to be a new game based on SC:BW. Sometimes people on this board do come off as a little to conservative.
Thats my opinion.
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I think as long as core concepts that made SC/BW fun as hell are there there, it'll be very fun. And if they can make some things a tad better, I'm all for it. Some of this is very much a recap.
Some of the good ones that come to mind for me.
- AOE (spells, splash, lurker spikes, etc.) that make an obvious difference in the battle.
- Worker killing (often linked to AOE)
- Different builds, unit mixes, and/or strategies can work in the same matchup. As in, you don't have to do the same thing every time in PvZ.
- Ground unit dominance and air unit as support in most matchups.
- Fun, powerful, often hard to master, and/or yet unique special abilties. Some of these are gone, so I hope we get fun replacements: spidermines, scarabs, dark swarm, stim, psi storm, scourge micro.
- Careful racial balance!
- Some static defense is an option or even needed. But it's not too good.
- Unit mixes that are at least fairly counterable (some rock paper scissors exists on multiple levels).
- Wacky builds can be effective on the right map or in the right player's hands. FE, quick tech, etc.
Things they might (or already are) improve on.
- Same race matchups.
- Impossible scouting situations when it's key. Also, keep scouting as equal as possible across races.
- early game harassment opportunities vs FE. (they are already addressing this with stalkers and reapers it seems).
- Observer/TV audience improvements.
- Replay improvements.
Not an easy task, but with some hard work and luck Blizzard is going to come through for the fans.
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I agree, they shouldn't stray too far from their source, but then again they shouldn't stay too close. They shouldn't re-invent the wheel, nor should they throw out the original concepts for it. What they should do is instead of making a wooden wheel, make it out of vulcanized rubber. I hope my analogy makes sense.
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On August 19 2007 04:37 Kaolla wrote:
other than that heard if before and we cant say shit anyway till the game is out >.<
wrong
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Omg Pape, those pictures look awefull! i hope the improvements on sc2 alpha/beta phase will be just as good as with sc1.
Imo they should make the 'pew pew' (stalker)laser like the old dragoon, its just the originality of SC in the first place, all other lasers back then did 'PEW PEW'. New DT skinn kinda sucks too, so does the viking.
Though, I really must say the game looks great, a lot of new things I really find is interesting and can't wait to test them .
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On August 19 2007 06:34 CFDragon wrote:
I agree, they shouldn't stray too far from their source, but then again they shouldn't stay too close. They shouldn't re-invent the wheel, nor should they throw out the original concepts for it. What they should do is instead of making a wooden wheel, make it out of vulcanized rubber. I hope my analogy makes sense.
I agree with this quote and Evan. I love Evan. Play more guitar plz :D
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i dont care about new units. its blizzards part to balance them. while i really doubt they will manage that( bw was more luck and blizzard was a way better company back then) i have no problem with units.
what i DONT like is all the changes i the gameplay. bw is still playd by masses of ppl and is still the n1 rts because of a few things:
a) amazing graphics.u always know exactly whats going on. when i play wc3 (or others) i often cant figure out wtf is happening with all the shiney crap flying around. i dont say i want sc1 graphics but i definitly dont want another shiney PEWPEW fest which makes proper control impossible.
b) the very simple nature of the game. no fancy crap. u have units. u have counters. u deal 6 dmg. target has 2 armor? u deal 4 dmg. a perfect straightforward gamy. i dont give a shit about fancy superweapon crap(except if its like nukes.totally impractical) and superunits that have a cooldown on building them or shit like that.
c) for me most important. the simple yet perfect controls. the game reacts so fast and accurate. the game rewards skill more then any other rts game.some skills balanced themselves out simply because perfect execution is freakin hard(for example perfect mass storming can pulverize 100 supply hyds in few secs. but since perfect storming is rare psi storm is totally fine)
all those stuff that dumbs down the game is just unneeded and will take much of the "realness flavour" of bw. there is just no reason to add such stuff. only if u care about the kiddies that will cry if they actually have to be good to... well play good.
its just not needed. i dont think anyone ever couldnt win the singleplayer campaign because his apm was too low. so the random 12 yr old kid that buys it for sp will not even care about the change.
So dont dumb down the game with unneeded changes which are basicly only for the people that dont give a shit about competive play. the random guy that plays the campaign, play 2-3 online matches and after that will never play the game agin.
so in short: add units(no superspecial power units...) but balance them. for the graphix, make them pretty but not a shiny pewpew fest which makes proper control impossible. keep the fast pace and skillrewarding controls and dont dumb them down with features like in wc3(or if u have to for your 10 yr old customers make them singleplayer only...)
thx
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You're pro-new. Doesn't sound fair to me 
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EPT
