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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 04:58 NewSunshine wrote:
I don't think the problem is that pros have a say, the problem is that the only counterbalance to a pro judge who plays Terran is a pro judge who plays Protoss or Zerg, because all of the judges are apparently pro players. There's no other perspective, and there seems to be no allowance for any map that might offend anyone or try something genuinely different.
I can agree with points like the timeframe and the transparency issues, those are pretty bad. In general, if ladder seasons are as long as they are, I honestly don't understand why these contests always have to be so rushed. I also agree that if no one is going to give 4-spawn maps the time of day then I don't think we should give ourselves any illusions about trying to bring them back. I have my personal frustrations with the game being simply unable to accommodate 4-spawn maps like it used to, but if it just isn't going to happen then let's not act like it.
Imo having non pro judges (map makers, former map makers, independents)* too would be good.
How about having one pool the pros "pick" via their votes and one pool the "other" judges pick via their votes. as a first stage (if you do not want to do the tournament with all maps)
Then in the tournament let them play on those 2 pools.
After that do another voting phase (with more detail) where pros are weighted more (because there probably are more pro judges than non-pro judges). This 2nd phase results (with details) maybe should be made publicly available.
This would imo resolve lots of the issues with the current system.
Of course this would mean that the whole contest would take way way longer, but imo it would be worth it.
* the map makers naturally would not be allowed to judge their own maps.
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On July 12 2021 04:49 hjpalpha wrote:
[*] I think it is utterly stupid to argue against pros judging the maps (to exaggerated it a bit: "everyone but the pros should judge maps but then they have to play on them")
In a tlmc, pro-players act as a jury and not as a player. As such, they should seek impartiality. Of course perfect impartiality is utopic but being mostly impartial is possible.
Acting in their self-interest is unprofessional. If they are unable to act in that manner, they cannot be judge.
Example in another industry: song contests that are so popular on tv. How would people react if one judge would give a low score to a good rock music performance because he only likes hip-hop and want to promote it for his own interest ?
It's the case here, giving a lower score to a map because it doesn't have X feature that favors him is not acceptable.
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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 05:12 Superouman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 04:49 hjpalpha wrote:
[*] I think it is utterly stupid to argue against pros judging the maps (to exaggerated it a bit: "everyone but the pros should judge maps but then they have to play on them") In a tlmc, pro-players act as a jury and not as a player. As such, they should seek impartiality. Of course perfect impartiality is utopic but being mostly impartial is possible. Acting in their self-interest is unprofessional. If they are unable to act in that manner, they cannot be judge. Example in another industry: song contests that are so popular on tv. How would people react if one judge would give a low score to a good rock music performance because he only likes hip-hop and want to promote it for his own interest ? It's the case here, giving a lower score to a map because it doesn't have X feature that favors him is not acceptable.
No it isn't ... as said before the quotes are ripped from context and the reasoning on stream is very much shortened so viewers get not bored ... It was a combination of reasons that led to the score, but if you mention them all on stream viewers get annoyed after the first 2 ... the no air space was just the easiest to show and in combination with the other reasons making it a bad map (btw. i agree with the assessment of that map not being great, i already see at least 3 other issues with it at first flance)
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Northern Ireland27371 Posts
On July 12 2021 05:14 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 05:12 Superouman wrote:On July 12 2021 04:49 hjpalpha wrote:
[*] I think it is utterly stupid to argue against pros judging the maps (to exaggerated it a bit: "everyone but the pros should judge maps but then they have to play on them") In a tlmc, pro-players act as a jury and not as a player. As such, they should seek impartiality. Of course perfect impartiality is utopic but being mostly impartial is possible. Acting in their self-interest is unprofessional. If they are unable to act in that manner, they cannot be judge. Example in another industry: song contests that are so popular on tv. How would people react if one judge would give a low score to a good rock music performance because he only likes hip-hop and want to promote it for his own interest ? It's the case here, giving a lower score to a map because it doesn't have X feature that favors him is not acceptable. No it isn't ... as said before the quotes are ripped from context and the reasoning on stream is very much shortened so viewers get not bored ....
What is the context though?
If a streamer is giving their rationale for judging, as a fan of Starcraft watching I’d be happy for them to take some time to properly explain, but hey that’s just me speaking about my own tastes, I’d find that interesting.
It seems entirely consistent to me that a person who doesn’t fully explain their rationale to a stream for their positions would also not extend a huge amount of time to judge maps.
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On July 12 2021 04:02 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 01:51 DrDevice wrote:
The part about not even realizing horizontal spawns were disabled is pretty embarrassing. That is historically a very normal thing on 4 player maps, we have had other 4 player maps with horiz disabled. The fact that someone was more willing to assume the mapmaker is a moron than spend 2 minutes checking whether the mapmaker thought of that speaks volumes about how little that judge cared. if you would have seen all the maps they had to judge ...... well lets just say there are maps that are that bad
I have seen the bulk of the submissions (https://imgur.com/a/1stqJAh) and it was still obvious to me.
On July 12 2021 04:31 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 04:24 NewSunshine wrote:.
The fact that Biosphere IV would've been trashed along with every other 4P map even if its spawns were correctly understood is indicative of my other problems with this contest. I can go into those further if I must. Why? That map has several other issues apart from the spawns and it being a 4player map ... imo it should not make it to ladder
Arguing that it's fine that a map was completely mis-judged through the incompetence of the judge just because you don't think it's a good map is the argument of a fanboy. Why should anyone have confidence that other maps were judged properly?
On July 12 2021 04:58 ROOTCatZ wrote:Of course pro players care about the maps going into the game they make a living from. Also important to note that the judge panel is not comprised entirely of Pro-players, and that guidelines provided by TL / the contest itself are heavily biased towards "standard" maps by default. To speak only for myself, I gave this feedback during the judging phase on the TLMC discord: https://imgur.com/a/pHgTU8QShow nested quote +I have a question on the grading criteria
Seems like if the criteria we have to use is the map being ready or not for competitive play it heavily biases the judging towards maps that look like current competitive maps
Since those are obviously competitive ready, where as if there is a map that's even just slightly different, saying it's ready for competitive is more of a question mark regardless of how good/cool the map is in the judge's eyes (we'd have less data vs any map that looks like the 3000th version of cloud kingdom)
And yet I feel boxed into rating cloud kingdom maps as 5 cause they're tried and tested plenty TLMC admin agreed to a degree (Winter also agreed), but also emphasized that the guidelines were carried over from previous TLMCs with Blizzard devs at the helm. I've had my own criticisms of Blizzard devs policies, especially post David Kim. Having worked with them closely I believe that as a team, their relative inexperience and the game's seemingly inevitable path towards 'stability' (lack of budget and Blizzard's unwillingness to invest into the game / development further) always led them to make 'safer' choices when it came to balance and by extension things like maps, that was something I was always trying to off-set while consulting at Blizzard. Also important to note as I've said alluded to more than once in the Pylon show; pro players in this day and age are generally iterators by excellence. Specially because the game hasn't changed radically it constantly rewards those who grind and do the same thing over and over vs other design alternatives seen in most games today that heavily reward adaptation and creativity because their games actively change radically, Dota and TeamFight Tactics come to mind for me, as I love both of those games also. This is a byproduct of the design philosophy (this time stemming from David Kim) to trend towards mastery and can be tracked back to unavoidable pitfalls like the very nature of StarCraft 2's economic model as a game (originally boxed product) vs self-sustaining / renewing f2p with in-game sales / content as a the primary driver, which offers devs the ability to continue to reliably work on the game and make active / big change. Regardless of all this, it's important to note that the invited Judging panel was comprised of 3 Pro players, 2 casters and 2 streamers, rather than something like all pro players as it's soft implied here. Some pro players may have actively tried to vote down 4 player maps and creative maps, but personally, and after this discussion above on grading criteria - I tended to grade creative maps that seemed fun to play and my favorite 4 player maps higher than the great majority of "standard" maps. I think I would've done the same thing in my time as a pro. All to the point that while this post seems well intentioned it's not really giving a very comprehensive picture of what's going on behind the scenes for the contest. It's not so grim or as black and white as op makes it seem and I think everyone is doing the best that they can to push their own idea of what game / ecosystem they want to inhabit; at this, I think TL / admins did a good job of allowing diverse opinions to influence the map contest this time around.
I mean yeah of course the guidelines are also bad, and the complete lack of transparency is also bad. But these are not new arguments. This is stuff that I and other people have argued for, and asked Kantuva for for years. But of course there's never been any improvements.
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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 05:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 05:14 hjpalpha wrote:On July 12 2021 05:12 Superouman wrote:On July 12 2021 04:49 hjpalpha wrote:
[*] I think it is utterly stupid to argue against pros judging the maps (to exaggerated it a bit: "everyone but the pros should judge maps but then they have to play on them") In a tlmc, pro-players act as a jury and not as a player. As such, they should seek impartiality. Of course perfect impartiality is utopic but being mostly impartial is possible. Acting in their self-interest is unprofessional. If they are unable to act in that manner, they cannot be judge. Example in another industry: song contests that are so popular on tv. How would people react if one judge would give a low score to a good rock music performance because he only likes hip-hop and want to promote it for his own interest ? It's the case here, giving a lower score to a map because it doesn't have X feature that favors him is not acceptable. No it isn't ... as said before the quotes are ripped from context and the reasoning on stream is very much shortened so viewers get not bored .... What is the context though? If a streamer is giving their rationale for judging, as a fan of Starcraft watching I’d be happy for them to take some time to properly explain, but hey that’s just me speaking about my own tastes, I’d find that interesting. It seems entirely consistent to me that a person who doesn’t fully explain their rationale to a stream for their positions would also not extend a huge amount of time to judge maps.
If you only want to see the bad things in pro judges go on ahead ...
I detest the kinda circle jerking of the mappers in this thread trying to discredit pros
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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 05:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Arguing that it's fine that a map was completely mis-judged through the incompetence of the judge just because you don't think it's a good map is the argument of a fanboy. Why should anyone have confidence that other maps were judged properly?
why is the judge incompetent if they trust the admins?
i think you are a hypocrite, you want mappers to get recognition and their mistakes all are minor to you, but if a pro judges on the criteria they have and the information provided you bash on them ...
also who says that the judge didn't also consider other reasons for their score? (which actually was the case here)
again on stream people tend to shorten their arguments quite a lot ...
I mean yeah of course the guidelines are also bad, and the complete lack of transparency is also bad. But these are not new arguments. This is stuff that I and other people have argued for, and asked Kantuva for for years. But of course there's never been any improvements.
Maybe with blizz now basically being out of the picture and enough time to set up the next TLMC properly instead of this rushed version the chances are good that some things can change
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Mexico2170 Posts
I just want to say you make very compelling arguments, OP.
Also about the topic of rush maps sucking, I couldn't agree more. We have macro and standard map categories, and the multi spawn/rush should be something different, something special.
Cloud Kingdom was a great map, but I don't want to play on Cloudest Kingdom #6. Let's have more creativity alongside our standard maps.
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Someone should just lock this topic, everybody should chill for a couple of days and then talking again about it with a cooler head ?
The topic isn't inherently bad but the way it was headlined by the OP was already adversarial. Caps for each word, and emotions running way too fast.
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On July 12 2021 05:38 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 05:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Arguing that it's fine that a map was completely mis-judged through the incompetence of the judge just because you don't think it's a good map is the argument of a fanboy. Why should anyone have confidence that other maps were judged properly? why is the judge incompetent if they trust the admins? i think you are a hypocrite, you want mappers to get recognition and their mistakes all are minor to you, but if a pro judges on the criteria they have and the information provided you bash on them ... also who says that the judge didn't also consider other reasons for their score? (which actually was the case here) again on stream people tend to shorten their arguments quite a lot ... Show nested quote +I mean yeah of course the guidelines are also bad, and the complete lack of transparency is also bad. But these are not new arguments. This is stuff that I and other people have argued for, and asked Kantuva for for years. But of course there's never been any improvements. Maybe with blizz now basically being out of the picture and enough time to set up the next TLMC properly instead of this rushed version the chances are good that some things can change
Because it's obvious? Sure it's a mistake from the admins, but if the judge had done his due diligence he would of course have noticed the spawn issue. And it's not just a matter of shortening arguments--the judge was not even claiming to be entirely objective, unbiased, or anything of the sort. He was simply picking maps that he personally likes.
And I'm not claiming that mapmakers never make mistakes or anything like that. And the idea that mapmakers get any recognition at all is laughable. I'm not even claiming that these maps that were misjudged are necessarily good. But they were misjudged nonetheless.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I just read Catz post. Also very reasonable.
Maybe they should have different judges for different categories?
It's understandable pro players will want the most standard maps, and that even some of the rules favor certain maps over others.
Also reading some other comments here...it's clear there are some big bias against 4 spawn maps for example, of that's the case what's the point? Four spawn maps aren't even bad. We have had some great games in four spawn maps.
Even maps that would never fly this day that were 4 spawn maps were great in their time.
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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 05:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 05:38 hjpalpha wrote:On July 12 2021 05:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Arguing that it's fine that a map was completely mis-judged through the incompetence of the judge just because you don't think it's a good map is the argument of a fanboy. Why should anyone have confidence that other maps were judged properly? why is the judge incompetent if they trust the admins? i think you are a hypocrite, you want mappers to get recognition and their mistakes all are minor to you, but if a pro judges on the criteria they have and the information provided you bash on them ... also who says that the judge didn't also consider other reasons for their score? (which actually was the case here) again on stream people tend to shorten their arguments quite a lot ... I mean yeah of course the guidelines are also bad, and the complete lack of transparency is also bad. But these are not new arguments. This is stuff that I and other people have argued for, and asked Kantuva for for years. But of course there's never been any improvements. Maybe with blizz now basically being out of the picture and enough time to set up the next TLMC properly instead of this rushed version the chances are good that some things can change Because it's obvious?
Not really. You (again) ignore the possibility that mapmakers can do mistakes too and actually allow such spawns sometimes.
Sure it's a mistake from the admins, but if the judge had done his due diligence he would of course have noticed the spawn issue. And it's not just a matter of shortening arguments--the judge was not even claiming to be entirely objective, unbiased, or anything of the sort. He was simply picking maps that he personally likes.
He actually said that he judged maps on his personal likes regarding design and on their usability for pro play. Not that he picked them because he liked them for them being advantageous to him.
Stop trying to rip stuff from context and using it for your agenda ...
And I'm not claiming that mapmakers never make mistakes or anything like that. And the idea that mapmakers get any recognition at all is laughable.
So should i remove the map maker pages on LP now? ...
I'm not even claiming that these maps that were misjudged are necessarily good. But they were misjudged nonetheless.
No they were not ...
The argumentation during stream could have been better, but as was said on stream the argumentation on stream was based on a quick look at the maps during the stream.
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On July 12 2021 06:05 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 05:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 12 2021 05:38 hjpalpha wrote:On July 12 2021 05:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Arguing that it's fine that a map was completely mis-judged through the incompetence of the judge just because you don't think it's a good map is the argument of a fanboy. Why should anyone have confidence that other maps were judged properly? why is the judge incompetent if they trust the admins? i think you are a hypocrite, you want mappers to get recognition and their mistakes all are minor to you, but if a pro judges on the criteria they have and the information provided you bash on them ... also who says that the judge didn't also consider other reasons for their score? (which actually was the case here) again on stream people tend to shorten their arguments quite a lot ... I mean yeah of course the guidelines are also bad, and the complete lack of transparency is also bad. But these are not new arguments. This is stuff that I and other people have argued for, and asked Kantuva for for years. But of course there's never been any improvements. Maybe with blizz now basically being out of the picture and enough time to set up the next TLMC properly instead of this rushed version the chances are good that some things can change Because it's obvious? Not really. You (again) ignore the possibility that mapmakers can do mistakes too and actually allow such spawns sometimes. Show nested quote +Sure it's a mistake from the admins, but if the judge had done his due diligence he would of course have noticed the spawn issue. And it's not just a matter of shortening arguments--the judge was not even claiming to be entirely objective, unbiased, or anything of the sort. He was simply picking maps that he personally likes. He actually said that he judged maps on his personal likes regarding design and on their usability for pro play. Not that he picked them because he liked them for them being advantageous to him. Stop trying to rip stuff from context and using it for your agenda ... Show nested quote +And I'm not claiming that mapmakers never make mistakes or anything like that. And the idea that mapmakers get any recognition at all is laughable. So should i remove the map maker pages on LP now? ... Show nested quote +I'm not even claiming that these maps that were misjudged are necessarily good. But they were misjudged nonetheless.
No they were not ... The argumentation during stream could have been better, but as was said on stream the argumentation on stream was based on a quick look at the maps during the stream.
Sure the mapmaker could have made a mistake. But then a judge who actually cared would have confirmed that.
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Northern Ireland27371 Posts
On July 12 2021 05:26 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 05:21 WombaT wrote:On July 12 2021 05:14 hjpalpha wrote:On July 12 2021 05:12 Superouman wrote:On July 12 2021 04:49 hjpalpha wrote:
[*] I think it is utterly stupid to argue against pros judging the maps (to exaggerated it a bit: "everyone but the pros should judge maps but then they have to play on them") In a tlmc, pro-players act as a jury and not as a player. As such, they should seek impartiality. Of course perfect impartiality is utopic but being mostly impartial is possible. Acting in their self-interest is unprofessional. If they are unable to act in that manner, they cannot be judge. Example in another industry: song contests that are so popular on tv. How would people react if one judge would give a low score to a good rock music performance because he only likes hip-hop and want to promote it for his own interest ? It's the case here, giving a lower score to a map because it doesn't have X feature that favors him is not acceptable. No it isn't ... as said before the quotes are ripped from context and the reasoning on stream is very much shortened so viewers get not bored .... What is the context though? If a streamer is giving their rationale for judging, as a fan of Starcraft watching I’d be happy for them to take some time to properly explain, but hey that’s just me speaking about my own tastes, I’d find that interesting. It seems entirely consistent to me that a person who doesn’t fully explain their rationale to a stream for their positions would also not extend a huge amount of time to judge maps. If you only want to see the bad things in pro judges go on ahead ... I detest the kinda circle jerking of the mappers in this thread trying to discredit pros
Ah yes, the mappers that earn loads of money from the game and get loads of love from the community.
I absolutely don’t want to see only the negatives that pros bring, whatsoever. They have an incredible insight into the game and are an extremely valuable resource in the map-making process.
If pros are judging maps that they don’t play, to the extent they disregard a map for imbalanced 4 player spawning patterns when it’s not a 4 player map, then yes I’ll be critical of the pro judges.
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Main reason I don't play anymore is because the maps are incredibly boring and samey. I've always attributed this to pros wanting the game to be a certain way so they don't have to think / adapt at all. I dont mind playing on 'terrible maps'. i enjoy thinking about the game / strategy for the map specifically, or at least i used to. golden wall was the best map in years imo because it was a breath of fresh air.
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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 06:22 LHK wrote:
Main reason I don't play anymore is because the maps are incredibly boring and samey. I've always attributed this to pros wanting the game to be a certain way so they don't have to think / adapt at all. I dont mind playing on 'terrible maps'. i enjoy thinking about the game / strategy for the map specifically, or at least i used to. golden wall was the best map in years imo because it was a breath of fresh air.
Maybe adding 2 "bad" maps to the ladder map pool (as 8th/9th map) and granting 2 extra vetoes on ladder would be good.
For tournaments one could just kick them again. This way the casual players can have their weird maps for the fresh air and pros still can just veto them and do not have to play them in tournaments.
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Pros should never be involved in any map making decisions or map pool decisions or balance decisions because it is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
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Germany339 Posts
On July 12 2021 06:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
Pros should never be involved in any map making decisions or map pool decisions or balance decisions because it is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
ROFL, so the people who have by far the best knowledge and by far the best argumentations should not be asked?
You need a proper pool of pros with at best case an equal quota for all races to counteract the conflict of interest, but removing the best input you can get is just a bad idea.
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On July 12 2021 06:43 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 06:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
Pros should never be involved in any map making decisions or map pool decisions or balance decisions because it is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. ROFL, so the people who have by far the best knowledge and by far the best argumentations should not be asked? You need a proper pool of pros with at best case an equal quota for all races to counteract the conflict of interest, but removing the best input you can get is just a bad idea.
It's still a conflict of interest. Find a better way.
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I just want to know why for example maps like Enchanted Isle & Sanguinite got picked in the macro finalists over maps like Gresvan & Hardwire?
The current system is not working well to pick the absolutely best, most well designed maps on a consistent basis. This is not the first map contest where the results were a mixed bag and the more interesting and well made maps were skipped over for less impressive maps. I think the OP highlights why this seems to be the case, and that something needs to change if the game is going to continue forward instead of stagnating.
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EPT
