Two terrific Terrans triumphed in Group B of the round of 16, employing a variety of tricks to vanquish their Zerg and Protoss rivals. Cure, a perpetually perturbed player in live tournaments, found the composure to advance in first place with a perfect 4-0 map record. Part-time GSL caster TY advanced in second place, eliminating Stats and Solar along the way.
The group started off as a cheese-fest, with both TY and Cure taking the "Maru when he's in a hurry" approach to start. TY opened his series against Solar by floating four Barracks into his opponent's main, taking advantage of the unique terrain characteristics on Ever Dream (he later revealed it was a strategy he lost to while off-racing as part of his caster research). Solar tried to strike back with a map-specific strategy of his own on Golden Wall, funneling Roaches into TY's main through a Nydus worm hidden in a shadowy alcove. Unfortunately for Solar, TY was going for a Marine-heavy 2/1/1—a strategy that had waned in popularity—and had more than enough troops to hold off the attack and take the series.
The other opening match saw Cure heed the memes and play like his former teammate Maru, relentlessly going for Drilling Claw Mine drops at great expense to himself. And, just like Maru, these costly drops still ended up conferring Cure a slight advantage, enough so that he could overpower Stats with a mass bio army before enough Templars with Psi Storm could get on the battlefield. In game two, Cure followed up with a Terran cheese of his own, proxying his Barracks, Factory, and Starport in the middle of the map for a modern day version of WoL's 1/1/1. Stats's proxy-Stargate Oracle was not the right answer—while Cure lost a handful of SCVs, Stats lost the game and the series.
As if paying penance for their cheesy strats, Cure and TY opened up the winners match with a bloody, macro-game brawl on Eternal Empire. We saw one of the classic TvT scenarios unfold: the player with the weaker, more nimble army (Cure) desperately tried outmaneuver the player with the more powerful, sluggish army (TY). In this game, it was the fleet-footed Cure who prevailed. By decisively going for counter-attacks instead of vainly defending against TY's slow-push of Viking-Tank-Liberator, he was able to cripple TY's economy and ultimately take the game. With the requisite macro game out of the way, the train of cheese continued in game two. Cure went for 3-rax Reapers, with two of his Barracks hidden near TY's base. The strategy worked perfectly (Cure said his inspiration was losing to INnoVation, who had used the same strategy in an online tournament), sending Cure to the Code S quarterfinals for the first time since 2016.
The losers match opened up with another Zerg all-in from Solar, but yet again he couldn't find success. His Ling-Bane attack fell flat against Stats, who lived up to his nickname"the shield of Aiur." Solar pivoted to mid-game aggression in game two, as he tried to overwhelm Stats with a flood of Roaches and Ravagers. Once again, Stats firmly held his ground, and took the 2-0 series victory once he had High Templars to support his army.
The last ticket to the RO8 was contested between TY and Stats, and they ended up delivering the only three-game series of the night. TY brought out yet another artisanal cheese to start, with his oddly-timed attack of four Marines and two Hellions nabbing him a sub-four minute win. TY took the exact opposite approach in the following game, opting to play mech on new GSL map Obsidian. Though Stats initially looked like he was in danger of losing to TY's max-supply push, he managed to successfully juggle the anti-mech tasks of counter-attacking, strategically giving up bases, and taking advantageous skirmishes. After Stats barely halted TY's main push, the game broke down into scrappier battles between lower-supply armies. That ended up favoring Stats, as he was able to dissect TY before he could build up critical mech-mass again. Perhaps not having the stomach for another late-game affair, TY closed out the series by being more offense-oriented in game there. A Mine drop-Liberator-Tank push combo was enough to push Stats over the edge, sending TY to the RO8 and giving fill-in caster Curious another day of work.
Recommended games:Game two of TY vs Stats was a double treat: we got to see the new, four-player GSL map Obsidian, and we also got to see more of TY's unorthodox TvP mech style. Game one of TY vs Cure was sloppy at times, but it was also one of the more action-packed, entertaining TvT games we've seen lately.
Coming up: The Code S RO16 will resume on Wednesday, May 13 9:30am GMT (GMT+00:00) with Trap, Bunny, PartinG, and soO competing in Group C.
Was a good mindgame by Cure in the winners match to use two builds that look the same to an SCV scout yet are completely different and need a totally different reaction.
On May 09 2020 21:09 TL.net ESPORTS wrote: TY brought out yet another artisanal cheese to start, with his oddly-timed attack of four Marines and two Hellions nabbing him a sub-four minute win.
That wasn't a cheese, that was a small poke that was never supposed to kill Stats but did anyway.
What a bad day of Code S, one crappy game after another. It hurts to see the ex-Splyce group end up like this. The only non-Splyce player wins it; Solar crashes completely; TY messes up the TvT macro game so Ro8 against Dark will very likely be his last match of the tournament; and TY could only even get there by delivering the final blow to Stats, who might have played his last tournament game today.
At least we got to see the first Obsidian game, which was good and almost could have been great. For a couple of minutes there it felt like we were back in 2017 and watching two Starcraft greats in epic battle. Katowice 2017 Grand finals, never forget...
I thought TY's 4rax was a masterclass on match preparation. On the other hand, game 2 with that nydus was probably the opposite.
And I ask those that know, how much of a gamble were those strategies? The nydus was countered by a common build. Were the raxes scoutable? What would have been a counter? Maybe a ravager all in? But TY also scouted his opponent I believe.
What an awful group to watch. The two players advanced who I thought were going to advance, but it wasn't fun to watch. Didn't at all live up to the group of death moniker that people were giving it.
One little thing I liked about TY's 4-rax was that with the 'rax positioned where they were, when TY needed to micro back towards the barracks, Solar couldn't drone-drill in pursuit. With a more standard proxy-rax that hits from the front, the zerg can drone-drill in those key moments. TY was careful to keep his marines where this couldn't happen. Cool stuff.
It's frustrating, but also somewhat relieving, to see Stats losing in ways that look really similar to how I lose. I guess if moves like repeated WM drops + liberator harass coupled with pushes are effective across a broad skill spectrum, that says something good about the meta balance...like the play/counterplay interaction holds across skill levels? But, as a macro-oriented P, it just feels so awful to play against. That doesn't mean it's bad or needs changing, necessarily... This rambling probably comes from my abysmal 35% winrate vT, but...damn. I see the same things playing out on streams and VODs all the time. I don't see T ever get behind from a WM opener.
On May 10 2020 00:45 sneakyfox wrote: What a bad day of Code S, one crappy game after another. It hurts to see the ex-Splyce group end up like this. The only non-Splyce player wins it; Solar crashes completely; TY messes up the TvT macro game so Ro8 against Dark will very likely be his last match of the tournament; and TY could only even get there by delivering the final blow to Stats, who might have played his last tournament game today.
At least we got to see the first Obsidian game, which was good and almost could have been great. For a couple of minutes there it felt like we were back in 2017 and watching two Starcraft greats in epic battle. Katowice 2017 Grand finals, never forget...
does anyone actually know if this was the last GSL season for Stats?
On May 10 2020 06:05 Waxangel wrote: Feels bad being the only one who thought the cheeses were hilarious and fun :[
sOs builds a Nexus in opponent's main which doesn't really do anything (he won cause of the DT's), and everyone loses their minds.
TY floats four barracks into Solar's main and people are calling it a terrible night of games
I agree. I'd go further: It was delightful to see unique build orders make success instead of the normal generalized macro slog. Weren't people just recently clamoring for more unique build orders?
On May 10 2020 06:05 Waxangel wrote: Feels bad being the only one who thought the cheeses were hilarious and fun :[
sOs builds a Nexus in opponent's main which doesn't really do anything (he won cause of the DT's), and everyone loses their minds.
TY floats four barracks into Solar's main and people are calling it a terrible night of games
I don't think it's about the cheese, seems like everyone liked TY's float, both here and in the LR. But when players just die to some early pressure that is not at all intended to end the game, or PvZs end in the usual mid-game brawl etc, it's not much fun.
On May 10 2020 06:05 Waxangel wrote: Feels bad being the only one who thought the cheeses were hilarious and fun :[
sOs builds a Nexus in opponent's main which doesn't really do anything (he won cause of the DT's), and everyone loses their minds.
TY floats four barracks into Solar's main and people are calling it a terrible night of games
the probe that built the DT pylon was successfully hidden in the main because it was rallied out of the nexus, which caused a distraction. otherwise he never would have had a hidden pylon. it was clearly a practiced plan B for the allin
So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
Zest is almost gone too, sad for protoss. Really hope trap and Parting could perform well enough to fill the hole.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
Zest is almost gone too, sad for protoss. Really hope trap and Parting could perform well enough to fill the hole.
Yea, we will be left with:
Trap Parting Sos Dear
Neeb is still very young and has proven he could win against Korean tier opponents in the past. Maybe he can make a resurgence
Solar was a total let-down. After the 4 barracks float into the main in the first game he was on tilt the rest of the night. When his Nydus play was stopped on golden wall, he could could have just gotten back into the worm and lived to fight another day (they were even on workers) but instead took a bad fight like he had no choice and gg'ed out. His baneling all in vs Stats was ill executed in game 1 (see Scarlett vs Dear for a better version) and felt like he was in a hurry to catch a train. Thus when he somehow got a decent lead w roaches in game 2, it wasnt much surprise when he threw it away as fast as possible. I recall the GSL group selection interviews talking about him needing to get some perspective and maturity, and this performance didn't do much to convince me his peers were wrong.
On May 09 2020 23:33 rasi86 wrote: Toss needs to be buffed badly if Blizzard wants to have the game balanced again.
User was banned for this post.
You get banned for stating your opinion?
Well this isn't the balance thread, I'm pretty sure you'd get banned for coming in here and talking Chemistry, politics or whatever that has nothing to do the actual topic at hand.
I haven't seen the game but it sounds when Reading the summary like the none Solar games were great, ofc Stats getting killed by light pressure is really weird but happens.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
Zest is almost gone too, sad for protoss. Really hope trap and Parting could perform well enough to fill the hole.
Yea, we will be left with:
Trap Parting Sos Dear
Neeb is still very young and has proven he could win against Korean tier opponents in the past. Maybe he can make a resurgence
Considering he couldn't even qualify for TSL.... yea I wouldn't hang on to hope of his being the Protoss hope for the world.
On May 09 2020 23:33 rasi86 wrote: Toss needs to be buffed badly if Blizzard wants to have the game balanced again.
User was banned for this post.
You get banned for stating your opinion?
Unfortunately seeing the ban text doesn't tell the whole story. This person, in particular, has been warned 4 times and banned twice for posts with very blatant balance whining. This ban is a culmination of the user's posting history and not just this post.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
Well, aside from Super Tournaments, Protoss has won Super Tournaments recently.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is not true.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
On May 11 2020 16:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
Considering he couldn't even qualify for TSL.... yea I wouldn't hang on to hope of his being the Protoss hope for the world.
Yea neeb isnt looking too hot this year. It's possible that it's just a temporary slump though, especially since he's young. In 2018 he was a code S quarterfinalist
I'm just throwing out names of possible protoss talent for the future lol. They truly are taking a huge hit in terms of elite talent
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is just wrong.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
Of the players you've listed, I can't name a Protoss that is objectively, definitively better than any of them. If the best in the world is who is holding Protoss back, I can't think that's a bad thing.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is not true.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
Yeah that is true, technically though half (3/6) GSL finals lost by protoss platyers were against Maru. While its not true Maru alone has stolen the Championships away from the protoss players he has been the greatest thorn in their side by far.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is just wrong.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
Of the players you've listed, I can't name a Protoss that is objectively, definitively better than any of them. If the best in the world is who is holding Protoss back, I can't think that's a bad thing.
Well whether or not the Protoss GOATs are simply "objectively, definitively" worse than their Terran and Zerg counterparts is a completely different conversation, one that I won't partake in here. I wasn't comparing Protoss legends to Terran and Zerg legends.
I was just having a discussion about how hard Protoss enthusiasts might have been having it and might continue to have it in the future.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is not true.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
On May 11 2020 16:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
Considering he couldn't even qualify for TSL.... yea I wouldn't hang on to hope of his being the Protoss hope for the world.
Yea neeb isnt looking too hot this year. It's possible that it's just a temporary slump though, especially since he's young. In 2018 he was a code S quarterfinalist
I'm just throwing out names of possible protoss talent for the future lol. They truly are taking a huge hit in terms of elite talen
t
The thing is that before the Protoss had a chance. While losing to the best who are currently on fire all the time is painful to watch(Especially when Maru was on fire), at least they got to the finals and had a chance. Now we have to hope that Trap won't meet Zerg on the way or that Dear will finally make it. Protoss fans are left exactly with 2 players unless I am missing anyone. Compare this with Classic or the usual Stats(this year Stats made some unusual plays which may be connected with his military departure, or meta not good for him as somebody already mentioned).
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is just wrong.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
Of the players you've listed, I can't name a Protoss that is objectively, definitively better than any of them. If the best in the world is who is holding Protoss back, I can't think that's a bad thing.
Well whether or not the Protoss GOATs are simply "objectively, definitively" worse than their Terran and Zerg counterparts is a completely different conversation, one that I won't partake in here. I wasn't comparing Protoss legends to Terran and Zerg legends.
I was just having a discussion about how hard Protoss enthusiasts might have been having it and might continue to have it in the future.
We don't need to have that particular conversation, we just need to ask a simple question.
Do you believe that any of the above results were a result of racial imbalance? I have a hard time believing any of them were. It's a much easier argument to make that the Protoss players were just inferior players in the matches they played.
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is not true.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
On May 11 2020 16:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
Considering he couldn't even qualify for TSL.... yea I wouldn't hang on to hope of his being the Protoss hope for the world.
Yea neeb isnt looking too hot this year. It's possible that it's just a temporary slump though, especially since he's young. In 2018 he was a code S quarterfinalist
I'm just throwing out names of possible protoss talent for the future lol. They truly are taking a huge hit in terms of elite talen
t
The thing is that before the Protoss had a chance. While losing to the best who are currently on fire all the time is painful to watch(Especially when Maru was on fire), at least they got to the finals and had a chance. Now we have to hope that Trap won't meet Zerg on the way or that Dear will finally make it. Protoss fans are left exactly with 2 players unless I am missing anyone. Compare this with Classic or the usual Stats(this year Stats made some unusual plays which may be connected with his military departure, or meta not good for him as somebody already mentioned).
Oh yea I definitely agree that it will be worse for protoss enthusiasts after stats and zest leave. no doubt about it in my mind
On May 11 2020 01:46 deacon.frost wrote: So, with Stats out and his army nigh, we just lost 3 top protoss players with no replacement. Protoss entusiasts have hard seasons in front of them(herO, Classic, Stats)
The seasons were probably hard enough even with them.
The last time a Protoss player won a Code S was over 3 years ago.
We had finalists, Classic, Stats or Zest. It's not like Protoss cannot reach finals, it's more about winning it.
Issue is we just lost 2 top S players and 1 who could have gone there had he wanted(herO)
Which is big because unless Dear finds his long lost mojo and Trap finds out how to play PvZ there's nobody who can replace Classic or Stats. I don't think sOs will ever go back to his HotS levels.
Edit: it's like losing Maru, Inno and TY in 2 consecutive seasons.(more or less)
I'd assume that protoss enthusiasts would care about protoss players winning finals instead of nonstop losing to terran and zerg players in code S finals for over 3 years lol. The New York Knicks losing every finals I've seen them play in in didnt make it easy for me to be a Knicks fan lol
But yea I agree - losing those 4 are huge as they are the only ones who won any kind of GSL event in LotV.
On May 11 2020 16:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Well Protoss would have a better chance of winning a finals if they'd run up against someone other than Maru. You can blame Maru for Protoss not winning a finals in several years.
This is just wrong.
Since protoss last code S win, Protoss players HAVE went up against someone other than maru. Innovation, Maru, Rogue, and Dark have all beaten protoss players in the Code S finals since the race's Code S win
Of the players you've listed, I can't name a Protoss that is objectively, definitively better than any of them. If the best in the world is who is holding Protoss back, I can't think that's a bad thing.
Well whether or not the Protoss GOATs are simply "objectively, definitively" worse than their Terran and Zerg counterparts is a completely different conversation, one that I won't partake in here. I wasn't comparing Protoss legends to Terran and Zerg legends.
I was just having a discussion about how hard Protoss enthusiasts might have been having it and might continue to have it in the future.
We don't need to have that particular conversation, we just need to ask a simple question.
Do you believe that any of the above results were a result of racial imbalance?
You already know what my answer to that is. You can stop trying to bait me
On May 11 2020 18:29 Vindicare605 wrote: I 'd love to hear your reasoning though, I think it would be enlightening for all of the people that read these threads.
If you don't want to though I can understand.
IMO it doesn't matter. if we don't have enough good P players for over a long time Blizzard will have to react anyway.
True enough. If it's worth anything I've made posts talking about how and why Protoss should be buffed on reddit and on b.net.
I just dont like the idea of dismissing the wins of Dark, Maru or Rogue because of racial imbalance. If you're gonna make that argument I want to see some specifics, that's all.
i mean tournament after tournament the statistics are showing the same result where protoss is not performing as well as the other 2 races. as long as i remember the pattern has been. protoss finds something to abuse, wins for a bit. players figure it out pvx win rate goes down. there is a patch. protoss finds something new to abuse rinse repeat. Consistency seems to be the bane of protoss pro players.
On May 11 2020 19:20 SwiftRH wrote: i mean tournament after tournament the statistics are showing the same result where protoss is not performing as well as the other 2 races. as long as i remember the pattern has been. protoss finds something to abuse, wins for a bit. players figure it out pvx win rate goes down. there is a patch. protoss finds something new to abuse rinse repeat. Consistency seems to be the bane of protoss pro players.
Can you like provide some numbers?
What you can provide to show this: - prize money per race (the last time I checked the order was Z, P, T) - links to the said statistics
Like, you know, cite the sources.
Let's check it for 2 years: Premier tournaments quick sum up of victors and runner ups for 2019 and 2018: 2018: 6T, 12P,12Z 2019: 5T, 7P, 20Z
If something, these numebrs show Terrans are struggling.
Edit> I may have missed some considering I am working and did this really fast.
Edit2> we can add 2020: 1T, 1P, 2Z. So far the trend of Zerg supreme overlords while the other 2 races trail behind seems to stick to this year but that's 2 tourneys with most of the top players representation so it's questionable at best. I don't have the time to go through RO8+ which would be more telling)
There is no way Dark and Rogue are objectively above Zest, Stats, sOs and the rest of the Protoss gang when we consider their career; they are in the same tier.
Nobody could ever say Maru's victories are due to racial imbalance; if anything, he seems stronger when Terran is weak. The same can't be said of Rogue and Dark.
In 2018, balance was quite good for Protoss but no player could match Serral and Maru who singlehandedly kept denying Protoss finals; Stats was very close but ultimately fell short to his tendency of losing finals.
In 2019, Protoss had a brief moment in which they appeared op being ahead of the meta with Warp Prism/Immortals abuse and people reacted savegely and constantly whining, resulting in (over)nerfs of the race. After that, ZvP became the least balanced matchup in the game and, paired with the very good shape of a good number of top tier Zerg, which lead to the Swarm onslaught so many like to complain about.
Protoss is looking like the weakest race in 2020(low PvZ win ratio, struggling in online tournaments; did fine in Katowice, to be honest) and buffs are on the way. What's worrying, tho, is that so many top Protoss have retired or are going to(Zest will follow Stats) and the new Protoss talents don't seem to be as promising or as mature as their Terran or Zerg counterpart.
Weavel Profile PM Joined January 2010 Finland8903 Posts May 09 2020 15:55 EDT #6 TY vs Stats saved this group from utter boredom.
Vindicare605 Profile Blog PM Joined August 2011 United States12527 Posts May 09 2020 17:59 EDT #12 What an awful group to watch. The two players advanced who I thought were going to advance, but it wasn't fun to watch. Didn't at all live up to the group of death moniker that people were giving it.
Tbh I am totally digging all the wonky quick games; this round has been absolutely silly in them. My least fav matchup of the round so far was the painfully standard Dark vs Taeja series. All the other games have been a jolly good time!
BisuDagger Profile Blog PM Joined October 2009 Bisutopia17400 Posts 21 hours ago #32 On May 11 2020 10:58 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Show nested quote +
You get banned for stating your opinion?
Unfortunately seeing the ban text doesn't tell the whole story. This person, in particular, has been warned 4 times and banned twice for posts with very blatant balance whining. This ban is a culmination of the user's posting history and not just this post.
And thank you for the context on this, I was wondering the same thing myself.
On May 11 2020 19:20 SwiftRH wrote: i mean tournament after tournament the statistics are showing the same result where protoss is not performing as well as the other 2 races. as long as i remember the pattern has been. protoss finds something to abuse, wins for a bit. players figure it out pvx win rate goes down. there is a patch. protoss finds something new to abuse rinse repeat. Consistency seems to be the bane of protoss pro players.
Can you like provide some numbers?
What you can provide to show this: - prize money per race (the last time I checked the order was Z, P, T) - links to the said statistics
Like, you know, cite the sources.
Let's check it for 2 years: Premier tournaments quick sum up of victors and runner ups for 2019 and 2018: 2018: 6T, 12P,12Z 2019: 5T, 7P, 20Z
If something, these numebrs show Terrans are struggling.
Edit> I may have missed some considering I am working and did this really fast.
Edit2> we can add 2020: 1T, 1P, 2Z. So far the trend of Zerg supreme overlords while the other 2 races trail behind seems to stick to this year but that's 2 tourneys with most of the top players representation so it's questionable at best. I don't have the time to go through RO8+ which would be more telling)
yeah protoss has not won a trournament since way before zealot nerf 9 months now?. and its never the same toss winning while terran and zerg have consistent players winning. current gsl protoss is least represented. Protoss just seems to be struggling the most atm.
EPT
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