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Wow, I forgot who the audience was. Thank you to the couple people who read the post and gave input.
I'm just talking about very minor changes that would make Zerg do a teeny tiny bit more to scout rather than blind go 3 hatch with 4/5 queens. I mean do you think that Zerg will be broken by removing the natural Overlord spot and making the Queen an Armored designation?
Zerg has workers to scout too, and they also have the fast unit in the game, and they also have natural flying scouts. I just think free scouting until their P or T opponent has high ground vision is too much. You see a lot more active scouting in ZvZ, why not have that same requirement in ZvP and ZvT as well?
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On January 09 2020 05:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 04:24 Legan wrote:On January 09 2020 02:07 Harris1st wrote:On January 08 2020 18:18 RoninKenshin wrote: 1) Eliminate that spot where Overlords can perch without being seen at the natural expansion. I believe this is a must and the only mandatory change.
That is in the hand of mapmakers and a lot of people on TL.net already campaign for more race neutral maps. This really should be tested. If single mapmaker chose not to have Overlord spot at natural's choke on a map, then that map will probably receive lower score from Zerg judges at least, because the map deviates from standard by not having very recognisable feature, that helps to guarantees normal gameplay in XvZ. This is the case even if other measures are done to keep the impact of missing spot minimal, because judges would be unsure about how it would play out. For standard and macro categories that are the most competitive difference between finalist and others can be a 100th of a point. Also, even if the map got to finalist, the tournament for testing the maps could have possibly worse games, because players didn't adjust correctly. Thus, taking such a risk is not really something, that a mapmaker would want to do. If we want to test it out, we would probably have to have a tournament with current maps with modifications to minimise other parts of the map effecting the gameplay in unknown way. Running such tournament would be hard just because Zerg players probably would not want to participate in a tournament that exists only because of perceived problems regarding Zerg and maps. Also there would not be many games to look at without tournament being bigger. Thus, only true way to address the issue would probably be that Blizzard chooses to remove some of the spots from maps, when adding them to the ladder pool. This of course would still be risky. Or you could submit the map with an overlord pod and delete it during the iteration phase. Besides, given that it's mostly a matter of optics and not actually balance (because let's be honest it's mostly a bunch of terrans being angry about mapmakers/TLMC judges treating overlord pods as compulsory and reaper spots as optional more so than the tangible balance impact), not putting overlord pods sounds like an okay move strategically for the upcoming TLMC. Also why would you want to run a tournament to test removing overlord pods? You wouldn't see a difference. Sure, TLMC judges strict insistence on overlord pods has been a bit overblown in the past, and so has the reaction from terrans on their Twitter soapboxes, but that doesn't change the fact that overlord pods are but a small part of a map and the impact of strong overlord pods (like on Simulacrum), weak overlord pods (like on Nightshade) or no overlord pod can only really be viewed holistically as part of the map. So leaving strategic mapmaking for TLMC purposes aside, it really comes down to what suits the map not which people you want yelling at you.
I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base.
As for Ovie spots I think it’s so universal that it’s just excepted as an advantage zerg gets to have. With Ovie speed I’m not sure how much it matters to be honest, although I do find the few maps were even a fully surrounded overlord is hard to kill with stalkers or riens even if a player has vision. Usually this is due to the shape of the dead space around the spot being to big or awkward.
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On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. .
This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead.
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On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead.
If we're talking pre-medivac terran can ill afford spending 275 minerals on a scout that could entirely whiff.
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On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead.
Hallucination and Overlords. Who needs Reapers rofl
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 09 2020 17:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. If we're talking pre-medivac terran can ill afford spending 275 minerals on a scout that could entirely whiff. I still 'member scouting rax It's less than 275 minerals! (at first glance, that is )
@OP The Ovie spot is needed to save the ovie otherwise you're removing a scouting option from Zerg. Which isn't as bad as it sounds at first, but considering you have to wall against Zerg... and here comes the issue Zerg would need another scouting option because losing ovie that early in the game is a problem.
So - remove the spot from naturals, fine with me, but add some safe spot around so you can take a risk and scout or prepare for the scout later(when it's walled, gas research on a hatchery when you have to build queens is, again, an issue).
Nerfing queens - sure, why not. But then we're back to the fact this has to have Phase 2 of adding/buffing other units which was not mentioned(or maybe I didn't see that, possible too considering my blindness).
@Whoever mentioned buffing queens Buffing the biggest bandaid in the game? Please no.
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On January 09 2020 18:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 17:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. If we're talking pre-medivac terran can ill afford spending 275 minerals on a scout that could entirely whiff. I still 'member scouting rax It's less than 275 minerals! (at first glance, that is ) @OP The Ovie spot is needed to save the ovie otherwise you're removing a scouting option from Zerg. Which isn't as bad as it sounds at first, but considering you have to wall against Zerg... and here comes the issue Zerg would need another scouting option because losing ovie that early in the game is a problem. So - remove the spot from naturals, fine with me, but add some safe spot around so you can take a risk and scout or prepare for the scout later(when it's walled, gas research on a hatchery when you have to build queens is, again, an issue). Nerfing queens - sure, why not. But then we're back to the fact this has to have Phase 2 of adding/buffing other units which was not mentioned(or maybe I didn't see that, possible too considering my blindness). @Whoever mentioned buffing queens Buffing the biggest bandaid in the game? Please no.
Zerg can still fly an Ovie to the natural/ third. OP's point is more about the Ovie staying there. And on some maps with large doodads they are very hard to ever kill without Viking/ Phoenix
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On January 09 2020 17:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. If we're talking pre-medivac terran can ill afford spending 275 minerals on a scout that could entirely whiff.
All other options for other races also cost minerals(and/or gas) and can also whiff. Scouting isn't free. Adepts are easily denied by a wall. Overlords are slow and can just be killed off by marines before they see anything. Reapers can be walled off on their main entry way. Scouting is an investment that doesn't guarantee a payoff until you get fast air as all races. Terrans have the option to scan if all else fails.
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On January 09 2020 21:12 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 17:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. If we're talking pre-medivac terran can ill afford spending 275 minerals on a scout that could entirely whiff. All other options for other races also cost minerals(and/or gas) and can also whiff. Scouting isn't free. Adepts are easily denied by a wall. Overlords are slow and can just be killed off by marines before they see anything. Reapers can be walled off on their main entry way. Scouting is an investment that doesn't guarantee a payoff until you get fast air as all races. Terrans have the option to scan if all else fails. An important thing here is not that a scan has no way to be blocked, it is that the game is currently not balanced around the investment in scan. The mule is needed for the terran to keep producing. It doesn't matter if the scan sees something or not.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 09 2020 19:00 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 18:48 deacon.frost wrote:On January 09 2020 17:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. If we're talking pre-medivac terran can ill afford spending 275 minerals on a scout that could entirely whiff. I still 'member scouting rax It's less than 275 minerals! (at first glance, that is ) @OP The Ovie spot is needed to save the ovie otherwise you're removing a scouting option from Zerg. Which isn't as bad as it sounds at first, but considering you have to wall against Zerg... and here comes the issue Zerg would need another scouting option because losing ovie that early in the game is a problem. So - remove the spot from naturals, fine with me, but add some safe spot around so you can take a risk and scout or prepare for the scout later(when it's walled, gas research on a hatchery when you have to build queens is, again, an issue). Nerfing queens - sure, why not. But then we're back to the fact this has to have Phase 2 of adding/buffing other units which was not mentioned(or maybe I didn't see that, possible too considering my blindness). @Whoever mentioned buffing queens Buffing the biggest bandaid in the game? Please no. Zerg can still fly an Ovie to the natural/ third. OP's point is more about the Ovie staying there. And on some maps with large doodads they are very hard to ever kill without Viking/ Phoenix My point is that if the ovie is killable near the base it's an issue with scouting. Remove the safe spot, but add another around (it doesn't have to be next to the exit) so you can prepare for later scout and you're not forced to go ovie speed every damn game. I bolded it in the text in this quote
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On January 09 2020 01:33 Decendos wrote: Is this battlenet now where everyone makes new threads with balance whines that have no reason because huge patch just went out and there are literally 0 numbers on how the state of balance is since the patch?
Hope this won´t be the new TL standard. :-(
This.
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On January 09 2020 01:33 Decendos wrote: Is this battlenet now where everyone makes new threads with balance whines that have no reason because huge patch just went out and there are literally 0 numbers on how the state of balance is since the patch?
Hope this won´t be the new TL standard. :-( same.
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On January 09 2020 17:48 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. Hallucination and Overlords. Who needs Reapers rofl
Reapers are honestly the weekest scouting option so the fact they can also be fully denied just by proper building placement on some maps is frustrating. Vs zerg they are great, vs Terran they can also sometimes get in and scout, but vs toss on some maps your almost better off not trying to scout at all and just opening with an Allin or extra units so that your safe vs potential aggression.
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Terran having the worst scouting is working as intended because Terran is not a reactive race. Other races react to Terran. Also, Terran is the best race at defending all-ins without scouting them. And on top of that, you simply cannot prepare for every possible strategy by your opponent - that's just part of Starcraft, and true for every race. It's just a matter of optimizing the probability of doing the right thing.
And the OP does have a point in saying that this may have become too easy for Zerg. You can agree or disagree with this, but it's not so ridiculous that it can just be dismissed. And if you think we don't have any evidence on the state of balance post-patch, you haven't been paying attention.
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Canada8772 Posts
On January 10 2020 04:27 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 17:48 Harris1st wrote:On January 09 2020 16:46 abuse wrote:On January 09 2020 16:37 washikie wrote: I am salty about the numerous maps where reaper spots are easily wallable by Protoss. Terran has to play extremely reactionary for the first few minutes vs toss since gateway units are so good at getting map control. When your reaper is walked out as Terran you are completely blinded until your first medivac drop and during that time a very large number of allins can already have reached your base. . This is the case for every race, except other races don't get reapers that are quick and can jump walls, and they don't get a scan to use (countering your "completely blinded"point). It's normal to either scout with workers, or your attacking units, and if that fails then you scout with air units. Also, there's more than one way to enter a reaper into a base, if you don't want to use medivacs. you can enter the base via the cliffs on the natural's side.Though terran does have the option to just scan instead. Hallucination and Overlords. Who needs Reapers rofl Reapers are honestly the weekest scouting option so the fact they can also be fully denied just by proper building placement on some maps is frustrating. Vs zerg they are great, vs Terran they can also sometimes get in and scout, but vs toss on some maps your almost better off not trying to scout at all and just opening with an Allin or extra units so that your safe vs potential aggression.
I think the biggest problem with toss is that there's a good number of one or two base push that you can do as terran that are very hard to stop and having to deal with a reaper jumping in and out of your base can screw you pretty bad and I understand the frustration as a terran myself but I feel like you can still scout a good bit; workers scout are very much an option in TvP since generally if you block the reaper cliff you won't wall off the ramp right at the start so a worker can scout at least until the stalker out.
I feel like it's currently much easier for terran to pull out a defense vs an aggressionthat he didn't quite identify than for Protoss to come back from a botched opening against a one base all in. I'm ok with that one honestly, better that than bringing back the MSC
On January 10 2020 00:32 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2020 01:33 Decendos wrote: Is this battlenet now where everyone makes new threads with balance whines that have no reason because huge patch just went out and there are literally 0 numbers on how the state of balance is since the patch?
Hope this won´t be the new TL standard. :-( This.
I don't think it's particularly more common than before, remember the avilo mech threads that use to come out every 2-3 months?
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On January 10 2020 04:49 Aesto wrote: Terran is the best race at defending all-ins without scouting them.
Historically this may have been true but I don't think I agree anymore. Play pool first and have non-stop queen production in the early game and I believe you'd be able to fend off any early game cheese. Whereas builds like 3 ravager rush still catches some terrans off guard.
But I think we can agree that overlord isn't the unit at fault here.
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On January 09 2020 01:33 Decendos wrote: Is this battlenet now where everyone makes new threads with balance whines that have no reason because huge patch just went out and there are literally 0 numbers on how the state of balance is since the patch?
Hope this won´t be the new TL standard. :-(
I honestly don't see any balance whine. These are some constructive points on changing the early game a tiny bit without hurting anyone really. I don't think I have EVER seen anything constructive on battlenet... Also this isn't patch related at all. The current state of Queens is discussed for years now...
I sincerely hope these kind of OPs will be TL standard
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On January 09 2020 14:41 RoninKenshin wrote: I'm just talking about very minor changes that would make Zerg do a teeny tiny bit more to scout
you're actually delusional if you think these are "very minor changes"
rather than blind go 3 hatch with 4/5 queens
unless the opponent is 1 base allining, zerg needs 3 hatches no matter what. everything else would be super allin from the zerg, so this question doesnt make any sense unless you want either of that to be more common
and they also have the fast unit in the game
with an upgrade that completes way past the initial scouting phase. how is this any relevant!?
I just think free scouting until their P or T opponent has high ground vision is too much
free scouting of the natural wall off until P or T has high ground vision is too much? wat?
You see a lot more active scouting in ZvZ, why not have that same requirement in ZvP and ZvT as well?
you see that in zvz because walloffs dont exist (until a way later point in the game than in the other MUs) and you can actually scout with lings. your proposed changes dont address that, they only weaken the one reliable scouting option zerg has in zvp and zvt.
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Win rates are almost completely equal right now outside of Protoss appearing ever so slightly weak against Zerg, but come on man, these changes are just ludicrous.
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On January 10 2020 04:49 Aesto wrote: Terran having the worst scouting is working as intended because Terran is not a reactive race. Other races react to Terran. Also, Terran is the best race at defending all-ins without scouting them. And on top of that, you simply cannot prepare for every possible strategy by your opponent - that's just part of Starcraft, and true for every race. It's just a matter of optimizing the probability of doing the right thing.
And the OP does have a point in saying that this may have become too easy for Zerg. You can agree or disagree with this, but it's not so ridiculous that it can just be dismissed. And if you think we don't have any evidence on the state of balance post-patch, you haven't been paying attention.
If there is any evidence to support that you need to present it and prove it. Terran has a lot of strong options right now: when it comes to mech based play, especially Thor based compositions. The balance is clearly better than it used to be and I highly doubt you have enough evidence yet to justify nerfing Zerg again. Perhaps you're the one who hasn't been paying attention and just blindly assume that Zerg is OP.
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