I’m a SC2 player from Chinese community. My English is bad, so sry about that if there’s grammatical error or something like that. My opinion about region-lock policy is explicit. It is no longer necessary as it was and need to be cancelled.
The reason why, initially, the region-lock policy was suggested, is to protect the competition environment of foreign players. The skill level gap between Korean players and foreign players was huge at that time. However, the gap is noticeably shrank in this year. I listed the result of foreign players vs Korean players in WCS Final Group Stage down below to show how small the level gap has become.
Dark 3:2 Showtime Soo 3:2 Special Soo 3:1 Showtime
You can see that foreign players showed almost as the same level as Korean players in most of the matchups. Only 2 matches were get 0:3 by Korean players. In my opinion, the fundamental reason that support region-lock policies is no longer exist.
Moreover, if region-lock policy still continued in 2020, GSL will been at stake. There are 9 korean players who confirm retirement/with high possibility to retire in next year. (At least what Chinese community knows). They are Classic, Soo(27), herO, Gumiho(27), Zest(27) , sOs(26), Stats(27), TRUE(27), Innovation(26). If they retire, then the meaning of GSL, a Premier level tournament that as same as WCS tournaments, will be questionable. Korean SC2 will be more deadly than ever. On the contrary, if region-lock policy is cancelled, it might have some new Korean blood that flourish Korean SC2 and makes more high-quality matchups for audience from all over the world.
There’s a vote in Chinese community that support cancellation of region-lock policy. Within 373 voted, 227 of them support that region-lock policy needs to be cancelled. Despite that small number of votes and most of them are TIME’s fans. This is the voice from Chinese community. What’s your voice about this?
The way I see it 2 things need to change before the region lock can be removed.
1. Prize pools must be less top heavy 2. The GSL must become a weekend tournament
Without region lock it is much easier for Korean players to participate in GSL and international tournaments than non-Koreans due to GSL lasting several months per season. That combined with top heavy prize pools would make it extremely difficult for most non-Koreans to make a living playing SC2. Region lock isn't hurting the Korean scene that much, it's the top heavy prize pool doing most of the harm.
If the region lock stays, I'd be fine with a cultural exchange program, where X number of WCS players are given a seed for GSL and X number of GSL players are given a seed for WCS. And no player can be in both. So this would give a lot of the players who failed to qualify for GSL a chance to make some money at WCS, and vice versa.
There's been many discussions about the region lock, and I've said the same thing because the issue hasn't changed. The primary issue for Korea is that there is too wide of a skill gap between the ro16 Koreans, the ro32 Koreans, and those who cannot make it into Code S. In WCS, although there's a big skill gap, we have the top, middle, and bottom top foreigners (as well as the emerging foreigners).
Right now, if you were to open up the regions and used a WCS-style Korea qualifier, then we would get Maru, Rogue, Stats, and Dark (and maybe some other depending on form). They don't need to be in an unregion-locked tournament. The people who actually need to be in a region-locked tournament would be taken out in the ro32 if not earlier. When you have players like Nice or Astrea taking out your potential Koreans, there's no way these guys would make any dent in a WCS tournament. I am a little conflicted about having foreigners in GSL when there are few Koreans (Masa is a Korean but has a Canadian passport) in WCS, but players like Scarlett and Special have contributed to the scene.
Unlocking regions only helps those who don't need to be helped. What needs to happen is to grow the scene organically on the inside or by having a newbie-only tournament.
My suggestion was and still is to have a 12 month revolving point system where people can compete in a challenger online tournament (maybe the finals are offline) as long as they do not achieve a certain number of WCS/WCS Korea points. Similar to how in Tennis, your ranking is determined by your achievements in the prior year, it would be the same for this format. This would be like the challenger tournament system we have now, but it would run independently of the WCS circuit, and it would probably be open to all regions (though time would be an issue).
FrkFrJss is correct in every regard about the Korean scene. There can never be real "new blood" in the Korean scene until all the old blood is gone. The skill gap can never and will never be overcome. Besides any new koreans will get destroyed by the top-tier and even middle-tier foreigners in the WCS.
IMO the region lock has served it's purpose and is really no longer necessary. But don't go thinking that any new korean players can waltz over to the WCS and win easily, because that ain't gonna happen anymore.
If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
On November 09 2019 14:53 dalecooper wrote: If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
I do not want to be rude but i think that you are not on point. To see a growing scene you need interest from public. You get interest if the game is appealing and if the public get engaged in the support mechanic (ie: finding someone to root for). About the appeal of the game there are few things that can be done, we are talking of a great game, but still it is 9 years old: there is not a great possibility it will appeal hundreds of thousands people that it has not appealed yet. About the supporting mechanic, like it or not, it is fundamental that there will be local heroes: we have seen (until the region lock was applied) that the koreans fails to appeal the western fans like foreigners. But to have real foreigners heroes they need to be on par with koreans, but to reach this objective, they have to have an incentive to become good, an incentive that nowadays is given by the wcs system, where the competition in the lower stages is far from the GSL level and so newer players can rise (a few names that come to my mind are Time and Clem). I firmly believe that the improvement in skill level in foregneirland is due to the WCS system. About team losses and such: we did not have proper teams anymore in WCS from ages, so i imagine you are speaking about korean team. Here the hard truth is simple that there is no support (or too small support) for SC2 in the korean audience, but this is not fault of the WCS system: they had the totality of the better players but they did not like the game (or they prefer other games, that in this reasoning is the same) so teams disbanded because of financial susteinability.
So i would mantain the current system. If there is money available i will add more cross region tournaments. If you want to be "fair" i would exclude foreigners from GSL, but what i surely would not do is open the WCS to korean: it will not save korean scene and will falter foreigner scene.
TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
On November 09 2019 14:53 dalecooper wrote: If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
I do not want to be rude but i think that you are not on point. To see a growing scene you need interest from public. You get interest if the game is appealing and if the public get engaged in the support mechanic (ie: finding someone to root for). About the appeal of the game there are few things that can be done, we are talking of a great game, but still it is 9 years old: there is not a great possibility it will appeal hundreds of thousands people that it has not appealed yet. About the supporting mechanic, like it or not, it is fundamental that there will be local heroes: we have seen (until the region lock was applied) that the koreans fails to appeal the western fans like foreigners. But to have real foreigners heroes they need to be on par with koreans, but to reach this objective, they have to have an incentive to become good, an incentive that nowadays is given by the wcs system, where the competition in the lower stages is far from the GSL level and so newer players can rise (a few names that come to my mind are Time and Clem). I firmly believe that the improvement in skill level in foregneirland is due to the WCS system. About team losses and such: we did not have proper teams anymore in WCS from ages, so i imagine you are speaking about korean team. Here the hard truth is simple that there is no support (or too small support) for SC2 in the korean audience, but this is not fault of the WCS system: they had the totality of the better players but they did not like the game (or they prefer other games, that in this reasoning is the same) so teams disbanded because of financial susteinability.
So i would mantain the current system. If there is money available i will add more cross region tournaments. If you want to be "fair" i would exclude foreigners from GSL, but what i surely would not do is open the WCS to korean: it will not save korean scene and will falter foreigner scene.
TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
See, nothing more than this. You have been stuck. You need to up your education. Have you tried to read Nietzsche "beyond good and evil"? chapter II. the free spirit. go and try.
On November 09 2019 14:53 dalecooper wrote: If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
I do not want to be rude but i think that you are not on point. To see a growing scene you need interest from public. You get interest if the game is appealing and if the public get engaged in the support mechanic (ie: finding someone to root for). About the appeal of the game there are few things that can be done, we are talking of a great game, but still it is 9 years old: there is not a great possibility it will appeal hundreds of thousands people that it has not appealed yet. About the supporting mechanic, like it or not, it is fundamental that there will be local heroes: we have seen (until the region lock was applied) that the koreans fails to appeal the western fans like foreigners. But to have real foreigners heroes they need to be on par with koreans, but to reach this objective, they have to have an incentive to become good, an incentive that nowadays is given by the wcs system, where the competition in the lower stages is far from the GSL level and so newer players can rise (a few names that come to my mind are Time and Clem). I firmly believe that the improvement in skill level in foregneirland is due to the WCS system. About team losses and such: we did not have proper teams anymore in WCS from ages, so i imagine you are speaking about korean team. Here the hard truth is simple that there is no support (or too small support) for SC2 in the korean audience, but this is not fault of the WCS system: they had the totality of the better players but they did not like the game (or they prefer other games, that in this reasoning is the same) so teams disbanded because of financial susteinability.
So i would mantain the current system. If there is money available i will add more cross region tournaments. If you want to be "fair" i would exclude foreigners from GSL, but what i surely would not do is open the WCS to korean: it will not save korean scene and will falter foreigner scene.
TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
See, nothing more than this. You have been stuck. You need to up your education. Have you tried to read Nietzsche "beyond good and evil"? chapter II. the free spirit. go and try.
Ok, so it is simply a question of education. You have been stuck in an ideal world. Nothing wrong with that but i still prefer a quantitative/pragmatic vision. I think the fact here is that there is no new blood in korea since the kespa arrival, so their stagnation is indepent from the WCS. Furthermore, since WCS stating the foregneirs level of play has grown up. The only possible effects that i see in removing the lock is to stop the improvement of foreigners. So, keep the lock like it is.
On November 09 2019 14:53 dalecooper wrote: If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
I do not want to be rude but i think that you are not on point. To see a growing scene you need interest from public. You get interest if the game is appealing and if the public get engaged in the support mechanic (ie: finding someone to root for). About the appeal of the game there are few things that can be done, we are talking of a great game, but still it is 9 years old: there is not a great possibility it will appeal hundreds of thousands people that it has not appealed yet. About the supporting mechanic, like it or not, it is fundamental that there will be local heroes: we have seen (until the region lock was applied) that the koreans fails to appeal the western fans like foreigners. But to have real foreigners heroes they need to be on par with koreans, but to reach this objective, they have to have an incentive to become good, an incentive that nowadays is given by the wcs system, where the competition in the lower stages is far from the GSL level and so newer players can rise (a few names that come to my mind are Time and Clem). I firmly believe that the improvement in skill level in foregneirland is due to the WCS system. About team losses and such: we did not have proper teams anymore in WCS from ages, so i imagine you are speaking about korean team. Here the hard truth is simple that there is no support (or too small support) for SC2 in the korean audience, but this is not fault of the WCS system: they had the totality of the better players but they did not like the game (or they prefer other games, that in this reasoning is the same) so teams disbanded because of financial susteinability.
So i would mantain the current system. If there is money available i will add more cross region tournaments. If you want to be "fair" i would exclude foreigners from GSL, but what i surely would not do is open the WCS to korean: it will not save korean scene and will falter foreigner scene.
TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
I don't know how much I agree that Koreans could not "appeal" to foreigners, as even with a general crowd, Koreans have received massive applause even in arenas with foreigners. Players like Polt, MC, and PartinG have been massive historical fans because of their personality (and, in the case of MC and Polt, because they learned English and were able to communicate with fans). That being said, is true that certain foreigners do garner large audiences? Yes. We've seen it both with Serral and Finland as well as Scarlett in South Korea and in China, with both having massive audiences in those areas.
As for your second point, we can see from both the number of Koreans in the GSL and Code A as well as the teams from 2011-2015 how many people actually leave and retire from Starcraft II. Even though there's a lot of tournaments in 2014 and only slightly less in 2015, they're still down from 2012. The scene had already been losing audiences even before the region lock came into play.
Though we can look at 2016 where region-lock fully came into play with LotV, there are a couple of very key points that also occurred.
2015 - The Prime match-fixing scandal where a number of players were arrested due to match-fixing. 2016 - Life (and Bbyong) are arrested for match-fixing. 2016 - Sbenu CEO sued for fraud.
I believe this combination of events as well as region lock to a certain extent, had a huge impact on the Korean scene.
Kespa closed in 2016. its now 2020. teamhouses are long gone, we have an entirely new meta, foreigners have no reason not to be able to compete with Koreans. Captain America Polt himself even called the wcs region lock racist. Imo this needs to end. now while blizzard did sorta address this I ?think? as a result scarlett wasnt allowed to play a wcs challenger because she played gsl. but its still imba.
On November 09 2019 18:05 CicadaSC wrote: Kespa closed in 2016. its now 2020. teamhouses are long gone, we have an entirely new meta, foreigners have no reason not to be able to compete with Koreans. Captain America Polt himself even called the wcs region lock racist. Imo this needs to end. https://twitter.com/TSG_Solar/status/1073116274144595968 now while blizzard did sorta address this I ?think? as a result scarlett wasnt allowed to play a wcs challenger because she played gsl. but its still imba.
To be clear: the korean saying that the possibility for the foreigners to compete in both wcs and gsl is unfair certainly have a point. But to me the solution is not to remove the locking but instead to lock the GSL to the foreigners and let the 2 worlds compete only in cross region events.
The region lock has a lot to do with the foreign scene's improvement. If anything, foreigners should be banned from GSL. I love seeing Scarlett, Special, etc play in GSL. But, they are taking the limited opportunities from newer Korean players that are trying to qualify, which is stunting the growth of the Korean scene.
On November 09 2019 18:05 CicadaSC wrote: Kespa closed in 2016. its now 2020. teamhouses are long gone, we have an entirely new meta, foreigners have no reason not to be able to compete with Koreans. Captain America Polt himself even called the wcs region lock racist. Imo this needs to end. https://twitter.com/TSG_Solar/status/1073116274144595968 now while blizzard did sorta address this I ?think? as a result scarlett wasnt allowed to play a wcs challenger because she played gsl. but its still imba.
To be clear: the korean saying that the possibility for the foreigners to compete in both wcs and gsl is unfair certainly have a point. But to me the solution is not to remove the locking but instead to lock the GSL to the foreigners and let the 2 worlds compete only in cross region events.
this. removing region-lock would do nothing to foster new blood (only give more opportunities to already established players).
On November 09 2019 14:53 dalecooper wrote: If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
I do not want to be rude but i think that you are not on point. To see a growing scene you need interest from public. You get interest if the game is appealing and if the public get engaged in the support mechanic (ie: finding someone to root for). About the appeal of the game there are few things that can be done, we are talking of a great game, but still it is 9 years old: there is not a great possibility it will appeal hundreds of thousands people that it has not appealed yet. About the supporting mechanic, like it or not, it is fundamental that there will be local heroes: we have seen (until the region lock was applied) that the koreans fails to appeal the western fans like foreigners. But to have real foreigners heroes they need to be on par with koreans, but to reach this objective, they have to have an incentive to become good, an incentive that nowadays is given by the wcs system, where the competition in the lower stages is far from the GSL level and so newer players can rise (a few names that come to my mind are Time and Clem). I firmly believe that the improvement in skill level in foregneirland is due to the WCS system. About team losses and such: we did not have proper teams anymore in WCS from ages, so i imagine you are speaking about korean team. Here the hard truth is simple that there is no support (or too small support) for SC2 in the korean audience, but this is not fault of the WCS system: they had the totality of the better players but they did not like the game (or they prefer other games, that in this reasoning is the same) so teams disbanded because of financial susteinability.
So i would mantain the current system. If there is money available i will add more cross region tournaments. If you want to be "fair" i would exclude foreigners from GSL, but what i surely would not do is open the WCS to korean: it will not save korean scene and will falter foreigner scene.
TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
See, nothing more than this. You have been stuck. You need to up your education. Have you tried to read Nietzsche "beyond good and evil"? chapter II. the free spirit. go and try.
Ok, so it is simply a question of education. You have been stuck in an ideal world. Nothing wrong with that but i still prefer a quantitative/pragmatic vision. I think the fact here is that there is no new blood in korea since the kespa arrival, so their stagnation is indepent from the WCS. Furthermore, since WCS stating the foregneirs level of play has grown up. The only possible effects that i see in removing the lock is to stop the improvement of foreigners. So, keep the lock like it is.
- Number of tournaments heavily decreased. No more Zotac cups, Corsair cups, ESL cups. Only one IEM, only one ASUS ROG (and it was only in 2019, and it was an international tournament). Environment is dead. - No more teams. Only mercenaries. Every single 3 month you can see a "new team". No stability. Teams with the story and legacy are dead. mYi, DP, EG, Millenium, EURONICS, Acer. No one want to invest or to have a starcraft 2 team today. - Sponsors. Where are the sponsors? Only chinese investors doing some great support. But where is your power ohh mighty foreigner hype companies? - Brownbear not so long ago at the PylonShow proved with some statistics that there is no hype even at GSL. Foreigners or Koreans it doesnt matter. And btw Noregret he was caught lying like you. Where is your numbers? You can go and check statistics. The best numbers at international tournaments when koreans playing vs non-korean players. - Back in 2014-2015. Have you remember number of viewers at twitch/justin? Dragon had 2k viewers. MC, INno, Polt were on top. - Even today, who can gather an audience? Who can be more real? Honestly. Maru, INno, ByuN, Polt, Zest.
it's a self-damage. You have trying to protect yourself. This is human nature. You hiding your personal reasons and hate but telling people that's bad to have open scene. While simply you can't even count numbers. I'm sorry if i am too harsh. I'm not a fan of it at all.
On November 09 2019 14:53 dalecooper wrote: If you want so see a growing scene then there is no need to have region lock. But if you are concerned about who is gonna win and what country is it... well then probably you are heavy addicted to region lock. I have heard enough about pros and cons from people ... even something like "i hate koreans or i hate foreginers they are sucks, they are took all money" and especially from casters (like ZG, Catz, NoRegret, etc). And it look like they are all preoccupied to their own business and concerned only about cash for themselves.
With region lock we have lost number of teams. There is no place to stability. We have lost big sponsors and environment as like as decent number of tournaments. We have lost dozen names. It's a stagnation. It's a stagnation under our present rules but also it's a degradation of human nature.
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.” with open scene you can learn and be a teacher. Scene where is place to rule to not give a player a place to play just because he is better and have a passion is absurd.
I do not want to be rude but i think that you are not on point. To see a growing scene you need interest from public. You get interest if the game is appealing and if the public get engaged in the support mechanic (ie: finding someone to root for). About the appeal of the game there are few things that can be done, we are talking of a great game, but still it is 9 years old: there is not a great possibility it will appeal hundreds of thousands people that it has not appealed yet. About the supporting mechanic, like it or not, it is fundamental that there will be local heroes: we have seen (until the region lock was applied) that the koreans fails to appeal the western fans like foreigners. But to have real foreigners heroes they need to be on par with koreans, but to reach this objective, they have to have an incentive to become good, an incentive that nowadays is given by the wcs system, where the competition in the lower stages is far from the GSL level and so newer players can rise (a few names that come to my mind are Time and Clem). I firmly believe that the improvement in skill level in foregneirland is due to the WCS system. About team losses and such: we did not have proper teams anymore in WCS from ages, so i imagine you are speaking about korean team. Here the hard truth is simple that there is no support (or too small support) for SC2 in the korean audience, but this is not fault of the WCS system: they had the totality of the better players but they did not like the game (or they prefer other games, that in this reasoning is the same) so teams disbanded because of financial susteinability.
So i would mantain the current system. If there is money available i will add more cross region tournaments. If you want to be "fair" i would exclude foreigners from GSL, but what i surely would not do is open the WCS to korean: it will not save korean scene and will falter foreigner scene.
TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
See, nothing more than this. You have been stuck. You need to up your education. Have you tried to read Nietzsche "beyond good and evil"? chapter II. the free spirit. go and try.
Ok, so it is simply a question of education. You have been stuck in an ideal world. Nothing wrong with that but i still prefer a quantitative/pragmatic vision. I think the fact here is that there is no new blood in korea since the kespa arrival, so their stagnation is indepent from the WCS. Furthermore, since WCS stating the foregneirs level of play has grown up. The only possible effects that i see in removing the lock is to stop the improvement of foreigners. So, keep the lock like it is.
- Number of tournaments heavily decreased. No more Zotac cups, Corsair cups, ESL cups. Only one IEM, only one ASUS ROG (and it was only in 2019, and it was an international tournament). Environment is dead. - No more teams. Only mercenaries. Every single 3 month you can see a "new team". No stability. Teams with the story and legacy are dead. mYi, DP, EG, Millenium, EURONICS, Acer. No one want to invest or to have a starcraft 2 team today. - Sponsors. Where are the sponsors? Only chinese investors doing some great support. But where is your power ohh mighty foreigner hype companies? - Brownbear not so long ago at the PylonShow proved with some statistics that there is no hype even at GSL. Foreigners or Koreans it doesnt matter. And btw Noregret he was caught lying like you. Where is your numbers? You can go and check statistics. The best numbers at international tournaments when koreans playing vs non-korean players. - Back in 2014-2015. Have you remember number of viewers at twitch/justin? Dragon had 2k viewers. MC, INno, Polt were on top. - Even today, who can gather an audience? Who can be more real? Honestly. Maru, INno, ByuN, Polt, Zest.
it's a self-damage. You have trying to protect yourself. This is human nature. You hiding your personal reasons and hate but telling people that's bad to have open scene. While simply you can't even count numbers. I'm sorry if i am too harsh. I'm not a fan of it at all.
We disagree about the causes of the present situation. For you is because of the lock, for me is simply because the natural decline of a 9 yrs old game and the lock has managed to at least stabilize the foreign scene.
-Tournament decreased because they are not profitable anymore, but their decrease started way before the region lock. The decrease of the total audience started around 2012, with MOBA great rise and i do not see how can you revert it. The fact is that RTS are a niche genre, too hard for the majority of the public and this won't change anytime soon. -Teams follow the same reasoning above: it is not 2011 anymore, there are other games that gather more attention by public and the money go to that games, simple as that. Again, it is not because of the lock. Furthermore, games that are currently on top of the esports scene (for example LOL) use a similar lock system (with the same good results in increasing the skill level of the "weaker" regions". -Sponsor: same as the above -Decaying viewers numbers is simple a consequence of decaying player number. It cannot realistically be stopped. Stop blaming the lock for this and maybe praise it for the kind of stable numbers that we are getting in 2018/2019 -I would say that there is no hype in GSL because there is no interest in SC2 in korea and because there is not a great interest for the same (highly skilled, but always the same) korean in the foreigner scene. -About the statistics i cannot found it now, but i am pretty certain that someone showed here on TL a viewers number statistics that showed that viewers numbers dip when there aren't foreigners remaining in a tournament. -I do not think that Maru, INno, ByuN, Polt, Zest and such gather great audiences (proof: the GSL is not flourishing at all). The only player I have said recently gathering an audience is Serral: the ASUS Rog 2019 has been possible only because of the interest raised by his success.
If a flow of korean will take 50-75% of the top positions in the WCS tournaments (percentage that i think is more than likely with the current skill level of the top pros) you only obtain to destroy the foreigner up and coming players that will not have any actual incentives to become better (because noone wants to train 8 hrs a day to be good at a game in which he is not earning nothing) and still you don't save the korean scene, because there has not been new player there for ages and is unlikely they will appear now.
So in a way you are right. There is a giant (korean scene) that is dying, but the cure is not to permit at that giant to slain the little fellow (foreigner scene) that is becoming stronger. To be more direct: if there will not be new programers there, the korean scene is going to die by lack of high level players. To revert this you would need an unlikely regrowing interest about SC2 in korea. So if it has to be, let that scene die and keep the scene that has shown glimpses of vitality.
it's fucking pointless. As long as illiteracy exists we will heavily stagnate. Trying to prove a point to block the whole fucking country from global tournaments it's a fucking something from outer space. And it's only because we need to protect "non-korean" players. Jesus, even god can't help us. "The ONLY player that recently gathering an audience is Serral". That man is fucked up and still trying to prove that we need to believe in region lock. Damn he is good.
I'd say yes cause it's the only thing keeping GSL alive, if korean players start to fly away to WCS event we will soon enough not have enough player in GSL. It's already hard to have a good round of 32
On November 09 2019 22:54 dalecooper wrote: it's fucking pointless. As long as illiteracy exists we will heavily stagnate. Trying to prove a point to block the whole fucking country from global tournaments it's a fucking something from outer space. And it's only because we need to protect "non-korean" players. Jesus, even god can't help us. "The ONLY player that recently gathering an audience is Serral". That man is fucked up and still trying to prove that we need to believe in region lock. Damn he is good.
I can not understand how can you not see that the koreans already have (and halways have had) an home tournaments, that is in a way softly locked to foreigners, because to compete in GSL you have to commit to stay in korea for month. So korean (a single country) do have 3 tournaments a year. The rest of the world has the same amount of prizepool split in 4 events (i would like to remark: one country as at its disposal around the same prizepool of the rest of the world). Plus there are a few cross region tornaments (where the korean tipically get the majority of the prizes, because they are still better than foreigners, at least in average). So you would like to destroy the opportunity of the foreigners pros (and the future one, because there is up and coming talent there) to sustain their careers in order to feed the koreans (that are going to disappear as long they reach their compulsory military age).
On a personal note: your continuous reference to illiteracy and such is frankly inappropriate, especially since you do not seem to have better argument than "the koreans are better, let them take all the prize pool".
On November 09 2019 12:49 imstupidhahalolpants wrote: 2. The GSL must become a weekend tournament
Yeah I have actually been thinking about this question for a few days now, and have come to the conclusion that ideally region lock would be dismissed in favor of “subsidizing”, for a lack of a better word, the foreign scene.
However some indirectly related problems arise. Number one is how does the GSL exist in this world? You can’t expect all professional players to live in Korea if they are to be pro. And doing away with the current GSL format would make no one happy (eXcEpT ZeRgS lUl). I wish I could move past this hurdle to start considering all the other things that would need to be worked out, but this problem alone seems way too difficult to resolve.
I want both the GSL and no region lock, but those two things seem to not be able to coexist fairly.
On November 09 2019 22:54 dalecooper wrote: it's fucking pointless. As long as illiteracy exists we will heavily stagnate. Trying to prove a point to block the whole fucking country from global tournaments it's a fucking something from outer space. And it's only because we need to protect "non-korean" players. Jesus, even god can't help us. "The ONLY player that recently gathering an audience is Serral". That man is fucked up and still trying to prove that we need to believe in region lock. Damn he is good.
I can not understand how can you not see that the koreans already have (and halways have had) an home tournaments, that is in a way softly locked to foreigners, because to compete in GSL you have to commit to stay in korea for month. So korean (a single country) do have 3 tournaments a year. The rest of the world has the same amount of prizepool split in 4 events (i would like to remark: one country as at its disposal around the same prizepool of the rest of the world). Plus there are a few cross region tornaments (where the korean tipically get the majority of the prizes, because they are still better than foreigners, at least in average). So you would like to destroy the opportunity of the foreigners pros (and the future one, because there is up and coming talent there) to sustain their careers in order to feed the koreans (that are going to disappear as long they reach their compulsory military age).
On a personal note: your continuous reference to illiteracy and such is frankly inappropriate, especially since you do not seem to have better argument than "the koreans are better, let them take all the prize pool".
I'm sorry i was harsh,'cause i had read your post back from 2013. Kinda feels bad. I'm sorry once again, you have your opinion.
On November 09 2019 16:54 Parser wrote: TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
This is fundamentally untrue and spread far too often by defenders of Region Lock. SC2 is about as popular in Korea as it is in most other countries.
On November 09 2019 12:49 imstupidhahalolpants wrote:
2. The GSL must become a weekend tournament
I hate this idea.
The GSL as it is structured gives players opportunities to study each other and prepare for matches. That's why it is the hardest and most prestigious tournament out there. I'm fine with developing more weekend tourneys, but don't destroy what makes the GSL, and the Korean scene, special by turning the GSL into another foreigner-style blitz tournament.
EDIT:
I do want to support your first point, that prize pools need to be more evenly distributed. Junior-league tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea either.
So in a way you are right. There is a giant (korean scene) that is dying, but the cure is not to permit at that giant to slain the little fellow (foreigner scene) that is becoming stronger. To be more direct: if there will not be new programers there, the korean scene is going to die by lack of high level players. To revert this you would need an unlikely regrowing interest about SC2 in korea. So if it has to be, let that scene die and keep the scene that has shown glimpses of vitality.
"Their scene is dying but they are still too good so we should choke them out instead of making us face them on the battlefield."
Ruthless. This is why I can't stand the foreigner scene. Like, why not, as a fan, celebrate the highest level of play attainable? Why, as fans of StarCraft, should we be punishing the best in the world for being too good, just so that players who look like us and talk like us can win? Yet here it is, the logical conclusion of region lock. It is worth it to choke out the best players so that we can finally win.
This is what has always bothered me about the region lock. I love the idea of local tournaments and there should be more of them. But if these "local" tournaments are going to be worth "points" that ultimately determine the best player in the world, it feels so cheap to ban the best players in the world.
There should be more local tournaments that are relegated to players of local scenes. But for WCS matches, get rid of the region lock.
On November 09 2019 16:54 Parser wrote: TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
This is fundamentally untrue and spread far too often by defenders of Region Lock. SC2 is about as popular in Korea as it is in most other countries.
I read the Brownbear text. It seems to support Parser, not disprove. Brownbear writes that Korean SC2 had decreased interest independent of region lock. So does Parser. Brownbear writes that foreigner top players are being rewarded more since the region lock. That is a sign of stabilizing the foreign scene, as Parser stated. Brownbear says that top-top foreigners are gaining on the Koreans a little bit, while Parser said that the skill level imrpoved a lot. Absolute skill level is not the same as relative skill level, but I think that they both mean relative to Koreans. Anyhow, Parser and Brownbear seem to say similar things. One say "a lot" and the other say "considerably".
Parser did not say anything about the popularity of SC2 in Korea relative to other countries. Parser's argument does not rely on relative popularity between nations. The argument is reliant on Korea now vs Korea before. Brownbear is not explicit, but seems to agree with Parser. Brownbear used number of price earners and wrote "the scene's sharpest decline occurred two years prior to region lock".
On November 09 2019 16:54 Parser wrote: TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
This is fundamentally untrue and spread far too often by defenders of Region Lock. SC2 is about as popular in Korea as it is in most other countries.
I read the Brownbear text. It seems to support Parser, not disprove. Brownbear writes that Korean SC2 had decreased interest independent of region lock. So does Parser. Brownbear writes that foreigner top players are being rewarded more since the region lock. That is a sign of stabilizing the foreign scene, as Parser stated. Brownbear says that top-top foreigners are gaining on the Koreans a little bit, while Parser said that the skill level imrpoved a lot. Absolute skill level is not the same as relative skill level, but I think that they both mean relative to Koreans. Anyhow, Parser and Brownbear seem to say similar things. One say "a lot" and the other say "considerably".
Parser did not say anything about the popularity of SC2 in Korea relative to other countries. Parser's argument does not rely on relative popularity between nations. The argument is reliant on Korea now vs Korea before. Brownbear is not explicit, but seems to agree with Parser. Brownbear used number of price earners and wrote "the scene's sharpest decline occurred two years prior to region lock".
TL;DR Brutaxilos is wrong and supplied a source.
You have just anticipated me. Furthermore i would like to specify that I have nothing against korean. I simply think that they have the GSL and its prize pool goes almost completely to korean pros because the long duration of the tournament soft locks foreigners out. So my point is that to not have foreigners scene die it need its own tournament series (WCS in this case) to provide an incentive to train and get better. In the last years this has worked out. Finally, if we the scene had the money to state local tournaments to foster the scenes I would not have anything against letting the koreans compete in WCS. But, in our current situation moneywise (situation that is not likely to change) WCS is the local tournament to make the rest of the world grow, while GSL is the tournament to sustain the korean scene. If we want to be completely fair we could lock the GSL to foregneirs, but i cannot see how let them take also the WCS pool could invigorate their scene because it has not shown new blood in years despite their pros continue success.
Fairness should not be the only factor considered when discussing changes, but also what will help the scene grow. I too, think it is not fair that GSL players cannot participate in WCS events, but WCS players can in GSL. But locking both regions from one another is not going to help the esport scene of sc2 grow imo. And people calling it racist, is plain stupid. The Koreans used to stomp the foreign scene so hard, if there was no lock from GSL players, there would be no foreign scene. But it is no longer needed.
On November 09 2019 16:54 Parser wrote: TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
This is fundamentally untrue and spread far too often by defenders of Region Lock. SC2 is about as popular in Korea as it is in most other countries.
I read the Brownbear text. It seems to support Parser, not disprove. Brownbear writes that Korean SC2 had decreased interest independent of region lock. So does Parser. Brownbear writes that foreigner top players are being rewarded more since the region lock. That is a sign of stabilizing the foreign scene, as Parser stated. Brownbear says that top-top foreigners are gaining on the Koreans a little bit, while Parser said that the skill level imrpoved a lot. Absolute skill level is not the same as relative skill level, but I think that they both mean relative to Koreans. Anyhow, Parser and Brownbear seem to say similar things. One say "a lot" and the other say "considerably".
Parser did not say anything about the popularity of SC2 in Korea relative to other countries. Parser's argument does not rely on relative popularity between nations. The argument is reliant on Korea now vs Korea before. Brownbear is not explicit, but seems to agree with Parser. Brownbear used number of price earners and wrote "the scene's sharpest decline occurred two years prior to region lock".
TL;DR Brutaxilos is wrong and supplied a source.
I'm not addressing the claim that region lock is killing the Korean scene. I'm addressing the claim that SC2 is unpopular in Korea. It's not.
My take on this issue is the money mainly going into the pocket of the best. It doesn't matter if the top foreigners or the top Koreans are winning. The bad thing with releasing the region lock would be that the non-top foreigners will receive less money, making it hard to support a professional gaming career. If organizers would make the prize money a lot less top heavy, the region lock wouldn't matter as much. In the GSL this year, the winner got about 18% of the totalt prize pool, 35% to the top 4. 28 players split the remaining 65%. The WCS Spring, Summer and Fall had 20% to the winner, 42% to top 4. The 28 remaining money earners split 58%. As it is, the top players in both regions are raking in money and they also get a lot of circuit points for the global finals. In the Global Finals the best players will face the worst players, gaining even more money when winning. Global finals is the worst of this year with the first prize of $210,000, 30% of the total prize pool. The top 4 got 51%, meaning that 28 players split 49% between them. If we only count the 16 players actually playing at the event, then the winner got 35% of the total, and the top 2 got 51% of the money.14 people split 49%.
The GSL and the foreigner counterpart shouldn't be so top heavy in prize money. The winners are already getting their WCS points. It is better if more players can sustain a professional gaming career, fostering the lower tier players for the future. People are struggling to qualify for these events. Qualifying should be rewarded. There are litteraly houndreds of players trying to qualify to WCS Fall alone. What do they get for it? 16 out of the 32 players got $1,250 + qualifiers winnings. We can take Vindicta as an example. Vindicta went 5W-2L in the NA qualifier, failing to qualify. Vindicta went to the group stages and tried to qualify through them. 2W-1L in the first stage, 0W-2L in the second and therefore going to the knockout bracket. Vindicta got a 3W-1L record there, taking the 25-32 place. 10W-4L, a 71% win rate. 14 games with 70%+ win rate and the prize Vindicta got was $1,250 and 100 WCS points. Where I live, $1,250 is about the minimum to survive on your own for a month. You are just hoping to not needing to make any unusual investments, like buying new shoes. Placing similarly in all 4 WCS events of the year would yield $1,250 three times and $675 once, i.e. a total of $4,425. That is not enough for a year. The players would need other sources of income. Back to the example of Vindicta: Aligulac says that Vindicta has earned $5,829 by participating in 44 different events this year. $5,829 is still not nearly enough. More money is needed. I doubt that all of the rest comes from playing StarCraft 2. Working a full time job, 40 hours a week for 52 weeks with federal minimum wage in the USA, you'll earn a little more than $15,000. Vindicta is almost two fifths of the way to yearly income of minimum wage in his home country.
If 8 Koreans come to the region, there will be a lot less money to the current 9-16 place finishers and no money for the current 25-32 (last places with prize money).
To sum it up: the tournaments are too top heavy in prize money, Sprinkle it out more! The WCS events could just as well have the prizes as 1st: 10,000 2nd: 8,000 3rd-4th 6,000 5th-8th: 4,000 9th-16th: 3,000 17th-24th: 2,250 25th-32nd: 1,500
Current prizes are 1 20,000 2 10,000 3-4 6,000 5-8 4,000 9-16 2,750 17-24 1,250 25-32 1,250
I don't know why the 17-24 and 25-32 get the same amount when there is a distinct difference in how far they've come in the competition.
On November 09 2019 16:54 Parser wrote: TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
This is fundamentally untrue and spread far too often by defenders of Region Lock. SC2 is about as popular in Korea as it is in most other countries.
I read the Brownbear text. It seems to support Parser, not disprove. Brownbear writes that Korean SC2 had decreased interest independent of region lock. So does Parser. Brownbear writes that foreigner top players are being rewarded more since the region lock. That is a sign of stabilizing the foreign scene, as Parser stated. Brownbear says that top-top foreigners are gaining on the Koreans a little bit, while Parser said that the skill level imrpoved a lot. Absolute skill level is not the same as relative skill level, but I think that they both mean relative to Koreans. Anyhow, Parser and Brownbear seem to say similar things. One say "a lot" and the other say "considerably".
Parser did not say anything about the popularity of SC2 in Korea relative to other countries. Parser's argument does not rely on relative popularity between nations. The argument is reliant on Korea now vs Korea before. Brownbear is not explicit, but seems to agree with Parser. Brownbear used number of price earners and wrote "the scene's sharpest decline occurred two years prior to region lock".
TL;DR Brutaxilos is wrong and supplied a source.
I'm not addressing the claim that region lock is killing the Korean scene. I'm addressing the claim that SC2 is unpopular in Korea. It's not.
I believe the issue that we've been dancing around is that the Korean scene is not popular enough. Comparing the WCS NA qualifiers versus the most recent qualifiers for the GSL, I can see that the number of qualifier participants who did not make challenger dwarfs the number of Koreans who did not make Code S. Remember, almost everyone from Code S has to requalify, whereas the WCS qualifiers are only for the challenger and not even for the main WCS tournament.
But now, it can't support its own scene. Currently, we have the rest of the world and Korea as its own scene. Korea easily has a greater percentage of top players, but they don't have enough up and coming players to support growth in their scene. The reason they removed Code A is because they had too few players to populate both Code A and Code S. Take the most recent qualifiers. If they had Code A, almost everyone who participated in the qualifiers would get into Code A.
On November 09 2019 16:54 Parser wrote: TLDR: WCS system has at least stabilized the foreigner scene, improving its skill level a lot. Korean scene is dieing not because the region lock but because lack of interest for the game there.
This is fundamentally untrue and spread far too often by defenders of Region Lock. SC2 is about as popular in Korea as it is in most other countries.
I read the Brownbear text. It seems to support Parser, not disprove. Brownbear writes that Korean SC2 had decreased interest independent of region lock. So does Parser. Brownbear writes that foreigner top players are being rewarded more since the region lock. That is a sign of stabilizing the foreign scene, as Parser stated. Brownbear says that top-top foreigners are gaining on the Koreans a little bit, while Parser said that the skill level imrpoved a lot. Absolute skill level is not the same as relative skill level, but I think that they both mean relative to Koreans. Anyhow, Parser and Brownbear seem to say similar things. One say "a lot" and the other say "considerably".
Parser did not say anything about the popularity of SC2 in Korea relative to other countries. Parser's argument does not rely on relative popularity between nations. The argument is reliant on Korea now vs Korea before. Brownbear is not explicit, but seems to agree with Parser. Brownbear used number of price earners and wrote "the scene's sharpest decline occurred two years prior to region lock".
TL;DR Brutaxilos is wrong and supplied a source.
I'm not addressing the claim that region lock is killing the Korean scene. I'm addressing the claim that SC2 is unpopular in Korea. It's not.
I believe the issue that we've been dancing around is that the Korean scene is not popular enough. Comparing the WCS NA qualifiers versus the most recent qualifiers for the GSL, I can see that the number of qualifier participants who did not make challenger dwarfs the number of Koreans who did not make Code S. Remember, almost everyone from Code S has to requalify, whereas the WCS qualifiers are only for the challenger and not even for the main WCS tournament.
But now, it can't support its own scene. Currently, we have the rest of the world and Korea as its own scene. Korea easily has a greater percentage of top players, but they don't have enough up and coming players to support growth in their scene. The reason they removed Code A is because they had too few players to populate both Code A and Code S. Take the most recent qualifiers. If they had Code A, almost everyone who participated in the qualifiers would get into Code A.
Yeah, but without an grassrot event for non Ro16 Koreans the scene is just going to shrink even further. Getting rid of the Region lockt wouldn t change that either. Koreans who can t get into Ro16 in GSL are 100% not going to break even in an all region events where top Koreans AND top foreigners compete. Removing Region lock would kill the bottom half of foreigner Pros and make the top 10 of Koreans rich, it wouldn t Help tue korean depth at all
Still not sure why people think a simple removal of region lock will make much difference, there’s so much else to address.
The game lacks a platform for decent Korean talent to take that step up to the next level, a platform which does exist and I think works rather well in WCS irrespective of one’s opinions on the region locked component.
Not enough tournaments, too top-heavy prize funds and arguably a lack of locked tournaments in Korea are all issues.
As an aspiring hypothetical Korean pro gamer, it’s me on my own, maybe a few good practice partners and the ladder, going up against experienced pro gamers, many of whom were in Kespa houses.
Even in something like Olimoleague this is the case. Which I do enjoy but arguably maybe something like that should be restricted to amateurs or at least non-GSL players (just spitballing)
You can only improve playing better players incrementally, some gaps are just too big.
At this point with Classic, herO, GuMiho, and FanTaSy retiring, and with even more to retire next year, continuing region lock would be nothing but pure sadism.
On November 17 2019 19:50 sneakyfox wrote: At this point with Classic, herO, GuMiho, and FanTaSy retiring, and with even more to retire next year, continuing region lock would be nothing but pure sadism.
I've heard of first three players but where fantasy announced his retirement?
On November 17 2019 19:50 sneakyfox wrote: At this point with Classic, herO, GuMiho, and FanTaSy retiring, and with even more to retire next year, continuing region lock would be nothing but pure sadism.
Depends how it’s done, and what the calendar looks like. I think we’re long passed the point where removing region lock actually fixes much.
It’s not going to be the lower end who plays in WCS IMO, but the people higher up who have teams who can help with travel etc. If the GSL loses even a handful of top guys it’s going to be a disaster for that tournament’s hype and prestige.
On November 17 2019 19:50 sneakyfox wrote: At this point with Classic, herO, GuMiho, and FanTaSy retiring, and with even more to retire next year, continuing region lock would be nothing but pure sadism.
Depends how it’s done, and what the calendar looks like. I think we’re long passed the point where removing region lock actually fixes much.
It’s not going to be the lower end who plays in WCS IMO, but the people higher up who have teams who can help with travel etc. If the GSL loses even a handful of top guys it’s going to be a disaster for that tournament’s hype and prestige.
It's not really that it will fix the Korean scene, I don't know what can. But banning the small amount of Korean pros we have left from participating in WCS tournaments for the remaining year or two of their careers is just cruel at this point.
On November 17 2019 19:50 sneakyfox wrote: At this point with Classic, herO, GuMiho, and FanTaSy retiring, and with even more to retire next year, continuing region lock would be nothing but pure sadism.
You forgot Keen, who was improving and went to the army two years in advance. Stats, Zest, soO, TRUE will retire in 2020.
Fantasy's retirement is a huge waste, he was getting better to the point that he could fight quite evenly with Dark in Code S and perform some exceptional all kills in team leagues; I could be a little less sad if he goes back to Brood War where another top Terran would be badly needed these times.
Fantasy's retirement proved my opinion. We will see more korean pro player retire in next year. Just like what I said: Soo, Zest, sOs, Stats, TRUE, Innovation has high possibility to retire in next year. If we lose them, then there's really no excuses for existence of region-lock policy.
On November 17 2019 23:35 v5872012 wrote: Fantasy's retirement proved my opinion. We will see more korean pro player retire in next year. Just like what I said: Soo, Zest, sOs, Stats, TRUE, Innovation has high possibility to retire in next year. If we lose them, then there's really no excuses for existence of region-lock policy.
Inno and sOs would theorically have another year left, we must see if they want to keep playing but with Terran becoming stronger Inno may shine again. Region lock could be abolished, but both GSL and the Circuit would need to be redesigned because of that.
On November 17 2019 19:50 sneakyfox wrote: At this point with Classic, herO, GuMiho, and FanTaSy retiring, and with even more to retire next year, continuing region lock would be nothing but pure sadism.
You forgot Keen, who was improving and went to the army two years in advance.
In my opinion, more and more pro Korean players leaving the scene, I think it's actually making region lock more and more effective, contrary to intuition.
Why?
Less top Koreans, assuming a very limited number of foreigners continue to attempt Code S, means that more opportunities will be given to less established Korean players. That being said, I think there should be a couple more opportunities for Korean players to earn cash. Maybe one more open circuit event or something like that. I think the WCS system is about as good as it will get.
On November 18 2019 14:35 TentativePanda wrote: In my opinion, more and more pro Korean players leaving the scene, I think it's actually making region lock more and more effective, contrary to intuition.
Why?
Less top Koreans, assuming a very limited number of foreigners continue to attempt Code S, means that more opportunities will be given to less established Korean players. That being said, I think there should be a couple more opportunities for Korean players to earn cash. Maybe one more open circuit event or something like that. I think the WCS system is about as good as it will get.
What does this have to do with the region lock? Korea is not region locked and majority of the top players is leaving because of the army. IIRC only Fantasy is leaving because of another game. Cancelling the region lock means nothing, it won't hold more top Koreans in GSL(because army and the closer they are the less they can travel), it won't affect GSL and it won't affect new or "low" Koreans as nobody will pay their costs.
Imagine me being an idiot and try to explain this one more time, this time use the "for dummies" version
On November 18 2019 14:35 TentativePanda wrote: In my opinion, more and more pro Korean players leaving the scene, I think it's actually making region lock more and more effective, contrary to intuition.
Why?
Less top Koreans, assuming a very limited number of foreigners continue to attempt Code S, means that more opportunities will be given to less established Korean players. That being said, I think there should be a couple more opportunities for Korean players to earn cash. Maybe one more open circuit event or something like that. I think the WCS system is about as good as it will get.
What does this have to do with the region lock? Korea is not region locked and majority of the top players is leaving because of the army. IIRC only Fantasy is leaving because of another game. Cancelling the region lock means nothing, it won't hold more top Koreans in GSL(because army and the closer they are the less they can travel), it won't affect GSL and it won't affect new or "low" Koreans as nobody will pay their costs.
Imagine me being an idiot and try to explain this one more time, this time use the "for dummies" version
Korea may as well be region locked for practicalities sake though.
Really what should have happened years ago was previous iterations of WCS should have been open to Koreans, but operate like the GSL does now. There was an overabundance of talent for just Korean Starleagues and exporting them to places where foreigners would get regular practice against better players would have raised the foreigner competitive standard.
Instead that didn’t really happen and the current WCS system was used, which works very well in that capacity but with other factors now makes it tough for Koreans to break through.
On November 18 2019 14:35 TentativePanda wrote: In my opinion, more and more pro Korean players leaving the scene, I think it's actually making region lock more and more effective, contrary to intuition.
Why?
Less top Koreans, assuming a very limited number of foreigners continue to attempt Code S, means that more opportunities will be given to less established Korean players. That being said, I think there should be a couple more opportunities for Korean players to earn cash. Maybe one more open circuit event or something like that. I think the WCS system is about as good as it will get.
What does this have to do with the region lock? Korea is not region locked and majority of the top players is leaving because of the army. IIRC only Fantasy is leaving because of another game. Cancelling the region lock means nothing, it won't hold more top Koreans in GSL(because army and the closer they are the less they can travel), it won't affect GSL and it won't affect new or "low" Koreans as nobody will pay their costs.
Imagine me being an idiot and try to explain this one more time, this time use the "for dummies" version
Korea may as well be region locked for practicalities sake though.
Really what should have happened years ago was previous iterations of WCS should have been open to Koreans, but operate like the GSL does now. There was an overabundance of talent for just Korean Starleagues and exporting them to places where foreigners would get regular practice against better players would have raised the foreigner competitive standard.
Instead that didn’t really happen and the current WCS system was used, which works very well in that capacity but with other factors now makes it tough for Koreans to break through.
Foreigner house. So there's only the problem of living in the foreign country which not everyone handles well. NoRegret somewhere said that he generally will accept anyone who's decent enough(the requirements weren't tough) and I bet he would accept any current pro, especially the top ones who would have a shot in the Code S qualifiers. I think he said it when he was introducing the new house, either on an episode of the Pylon show, or in the standalone video. Don't remember now.
On November 18 2019 14:35 TentativePanda wrote: In my opinion, more and more pro Korean players leaving the scene, I think it's actually making region lock more and more effective, contrary to intuition.
Why?
Less top Koreans, assuming a very limited number of foreigners continue to attempt Code S, means that more opportunities will be given to less established Korean players. That being said, I think there should be a couple more opportunities for Korean players to earn cash. Maybe one more open circuit event or something like that. I think the WCS system is about as good as it will get.
What does this have to do with the region lock? Korea is not region locked and majority of the top players is leaving because of the army. IIRC only Fantasy is leaving because of another game. Cancelling the region lock means nothing, it won't hold more top Koreans in GSL(because army and the closer they are the less they can travel), it won't affect GSL and it won't affect new or "low" Koreans as nobody will pay their costs.
Imagine me being an idiot and try to explain this one more time, this time use the "for dummies" version
Korea may as well be region locked for practicalities sake though.
Really what should have happened years ago was previous iterations of WCS should have been open to Koreans, but operate like the GSL does now. There was an overabundance of talent for just Korean Starleagues and exporting them to places where foreigners would get regular practice against better players would have raised the foreigner competitive standard.
Instead that didn’t really happen and the current WCS system was used, which works very well in that capacity but with other factors now makes it tough for Koreans to break through.
Foreigner house. So there's only the problem of living in the foreign country which not everyone handles well. NoRegret somewhere said that he generally will accept anyone who's decent enough(the requirements weren't tough) and I bet he would accept any current pro, especially the top ones who would have a shot in the Code S qualifiers. I think he said it when he was introducing the new house, either on an episode of the Pylon show, or in the standalone video. Don't remember now.
I’m well aware of the existence of the foreigner house, NoRegret has done a sterling job there. I think we might see more give Korea a go this season, depends how the calendar is. Reynor has said in the past he’d like to give it another shot and he’s a bit older now and has banked a fair bit of cash this season so might go back for the challenge.
Aside from personal reticence it does preclude anyone who’s still at school from participating as well, or certainly does make it more difficult.
I’m not sure the GSL really needs to run quite as long as it does. It could be shortened a little without losing the preparation element that makes for great Starcraft.
Anyway my point was more that when Korea was that much more dominant that Koreans should have been able to compete in the old WCS tournaments, but with Korean versions of the foreigner houses etc in Europe and NA. So yeah they’d take the prize money but they’d also be contributing to raising the standard of those environments, but that didn’t really happen.
I’m less in favour of that now because the depth in Korea is now thin and especially for those approaching military service age I think we’d see people take their focus off the GSL and dilute its quality and prestige.
EPT
