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On October 31 2018 06:54 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 03:35 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 23:49 Rodya wrote:On October 30 2018 21:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 30 2018 12:12 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 11:49 ProFalseIdol wrote:On October 29 2018 22:49 Rodya wrote:On October 29 2018 22:40 BisuDagger wrote:On October 29 2018 21:24 Geo.Rion wrote:
After watching that series vs Classic im getting on the Juanito train
Maru 3 -0 SoS
Stats 2 - 3 Special
Rogue 3 - 2 TY
Dark 0 - 3 Serral
Maru 3 -1 Special
Serral 3 - 1 Rogue
Maru ? - ? Serral Special played great, but Classic has been a foreigner punching bag this year lol. Yeah it's not like he completely embarassed Serral at IEM Katowice... wait he did do that. Maru also made Serral literally a punching bag during their BO3 at WESG this year. And afterwards Serral walked over Classic and beat Maru in a bo1 at a korean event that he won. But obviously only the results at the early year count, why don't we just forget everything else that happened after that.  You really value BO1 of fun match the same as BO3 of a tournament? Seriously? What is with the misinformation in this these TL threads? Maru won a Bo5 against Serral at WESG. It was only 3 games though because Maru dismantled Serral in each game. Watch game 3 if you want to see Maru play with his food. And the Bo1 that Maru and Serral played doesn't count, but Serral fans of course will deny this lol, just like they deny his losses to Classic and Maru this year (how often do you hear Serral fans say that he has won every tournament that he has attended? I've actually heard Incontrol say this before). My point for you numbskulls is that you keep citing results from the early year that happen to favor your thoughts, while conveniently forgetting whatever happened in the rest of the year, including Maru losing to SOS out of all people in last GSL invitational and Serral walking over pretty much everyone in the rest of the year. User was warned for this post I wouldn't consider 3-2ing / 4-3ing his way to Montreal walking over everyone though. And that Maru vs sOs was kinda like Serral vs Neeb
It was a bit of hyperbole but you got the point. I'm not denying that Maru is really good, but i just hate these kind of people completely undermining everything Serral has achieved and deciding he is worth nothing because of something that happened at the early year.
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On October 31 2018 02:18 Devin1 wrote:
I hope Dark 3-0's Serral and shuts down all the annoying foreign hype.
Yeah, all you foreigner cheering TLers shut your mouths already! Both of you!
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On October 31 2018 07:33 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 02:18 Devin1 wrote:
I hope Dark 3-0's Serral and shuts down all the annoying foreign hype. Yeah, all you foreigner cheering TLers shut your mouths already! Both of you!
One has already been banned so that's one down
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On October 31 2018 07:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 06:54 Poopi wrote:On October 31 2018 03:35 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 23:49 Rodya wrote:On October 30 2018 21:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 30 2018 12:12 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 11:49 ProFalseIdol wrote:On October 29 2018 22:49 Rodya wrote:On October 29 2018 22:40 BisuDagger wrote:On October 29 2018 21:24 Geo.Rion wrote:
After watching that series vs Classic im getting on the Juanito train
Maru 3 -0 SoS
Stats 2 - 3 Special
Rogue 3 - 2 TY
Dark 0 - 3 Serral
Maru 3 -1 Special
Serral 3 - 1 Rogue
Maru ? - ? Serral Special played great, but Classic has been a foreigner punching bag this year lol. Yeah it's not like he completely embarassed Serral at IEM Katowice... wait he did do that. Maru also made Serral literally a punching bag during their BO3 at WESG this year. And afterwards Serral walked over Classic and beat Maru in a bo1 at a korean event that he won. But obviously only the results at the early year count, why don't we just forget everything else that happened after that. You really value BO1 of fun match the same as BO3 of a tournament? Seriously? What is with the misinformation in this these TL threads? Maru won a Bo5 against Serral at WESG. It was only 3 games though because Maru dismantled Serral in each game. Watch game 3 if you want to see Maru play with his food. And the Bo1 that Maru and Serral played doesn't count, but Serral fans of course will deny this lol, just like they deny his losses to Classic and Maru this year (how often do you hear Serral fans say that he has won every tournament that he has attended? I've actually heard Incontrol say this before). My point for you numbskulls is that you keep citing results from the early year that happen to favor your thoughts, while conveniently forgetting whatever happened in the rest of the year, including Maru losing to SOS out of all people in last GSL invitational and Serral walking over pretty much everyone in the rest of the year. User was warned for this post I wouldn't consider 3-2ing / 4-3ing his way to Montreal walking over everyone though. And that Maru vs sOs was kinda like Serral vs Neeb It was a bit of hyperbole but you got the point. I'm not denying that Maru is really good, but i just hate these kind of people completely undermining everything Serral has achieved and deciding he is worth nothing because of something that happened at the early year.
Who says serral is worth nothing? People bring up the 0-3 against Maru because others seem to think a bo1 showmatch makes someone the best in the world.
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On October 31 2018 08:07 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 07:08 Luolis wrote:On October 31 2018 06:54 Poopi wrote:On October 31 2018 03:35 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 23:49 Rodya wrote:On October 30 2018 21:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 30 2018 12:12 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 11:49 ProFalseIdol wrote:On October 29 2018 22:49 Rodya wrote:On October 29 2018 22:40 BisuDagger wrote:
[quote]
Special played great, but Classic has been a foreigner punching bag this year lol. Yeah it's not like he completely embarassed Serral at IEM Katowice... wait he did do that. Maru also made Serral literally a punching bag during their BO3 at WESG this year. And afterwards Serral walked over Classic and beat Maru in a bo1 at a korean event that he won. But obviously only the results at the early year count, why don't we just forget everything else that happened after that. You really value BO1 of fun match the same as BO3 of a tournament? Seriously? What is with the misinformation in this these TL threads? Maru won a Bo5 against Serral at WESG. It was only 3 games though because Maru dismantled Serral in each game. Watch game 3 if you want to see Maru play with his food. And the Bo1 that Maru and Serral played doesn't count, but Serral fans of course will deny this lol, just like they deny his losses to Classic and Maru this year (how often do you hear Serral fans say that he has won every tournament that he has attended? I've actually heard Incontrol say this before). My point for you numbskulls is that you keep citing results from the early year that happen to favor your thoughts, while conveniently forgetting whatever happened in the rest of the year, including Maru losing to SOS out of all people in last GSL invitational and Serral walking over pretty much everyone in the rest of the year. User was warned for this post I wouldn't consider 3-2ing / 4-3ing his way to Montreal walking over everyone though. And that Maru vs sOs was kinda like Serral vs Neeb It was a bit of hyperbole but you got the point. I'm not denying that Maru is really good, but i just hate these kind of people completely undermining everything Serral has achieved and deciding he is worth nothing because of something that happened at the early year. Who says serral is worth nothing? People bring up the 0-3 against Maru because others seem to think a bo1 showmatch makes someone the best in the world.
Well if you read Rodya's and some other peoples posts, it's not too hard to get into that conclusion.
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On October 31 2018 07:33 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 02:18 Devin1 wrote:
I hope Dark 3-0's Serral and shuts down all the annoying foreign hype. Yeah, all you foreigner cheering TLers shut your mouths already! Both of you!
Because TL represents the entire sc2 community.
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On October 31 2018 08:27 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 08:07 Fango wrote:On October 31 2018 07:08 Luolis wrote:On October 31 2018 06:54 Poopi wrote:On October 31 2018 03:35 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 23:49 Rodya wrote:On October 30 2018 21:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 30 2018 12:12 Luolis wrote:On October 30 2018 11:49 ProFalseIdol wrote:On October 29 2018 22:49 Rodya wrote:
[quote]
Yeah it's not like he completely embarassed Serral at IEM Katowice... wait he did do that. Maru also made Serral literally a punching bag during their BO3 at WESG this year. And afterwards Serral walked over Classic and beat Maru in a bo1 at a korean event that he won. But obviously only the results at the early year count, why don't we just forget everything else that happened after that. You really value BO1 of fun match the same as BO3 of a tournament? Seriously? What is with the misinformation in this these TL threads? Maru won a Bo5 against Serral at WESG. It was only 3 games though because Maru dismantled Serral in each game. Watch game 3 if you want to see Maru play with his food. And the Bo1 that Maru and Serral played doesn't count, but Serral fans of course will deny this lol, just like they deny his losses to Classic and Maru this year (how often do you hear Serral fans say that he has won every tournament that he has attended? I've actually heard Incontrol say this before). My point for you numbskulls is that you keep citing results from the early year that happen to favor your thoughts, while conveniently forgetting whatever happened in the rest of the year, including Maru losing to SOS out of all people in last GSL invitational and Serral walking over pretty much everyone in the rest of the year. User was warned for this post I wouldn't consider 3-2ing / 4-3ing his way to Montreal walking over everyone though. And that Maru vs sOs was kinda like Serral vs Neeb It was a bit of hyperbole but you got the point. I'm not denying that Maru is really good, but i just hate these kind of people completely undermining everything Serral has achieved and deciding he is worth nothing because of something that happened at the early year. Who says serral is worth nothing? People bring up the 0-3 against Maru because others seem to think a bo1 showmatch makes someone the best in the world. Well if you read Rodya's and some other peoples posts, it's not too hard to get into that conclusion.
I don't think that Serral is worth nothing and I have of course never said that. I don't think 1) that it's clear he's a top 2 player in the world (ergo second best) and 2) that it's clear that he's the best zerg in the world.
To some people (namely Serral fans) these two statements are offensive. I admit that I thought Serral was a lot worse before GSL vs The World (can you really blame me though? his only international results were WESG and IEM, and his results in previous years were worse), but afterwards I have always maintained that while is a strong player, we do not yet have the evidence for those two statements. If he beats Dark, beats Rogue/TY, and then beats Maru in the finals I will update my opinion of him. I don't jump to conclusions - just like I didn't think that Action > Effort after ASL groups.
Lastly, I do not think that him beating Dark last time is proof that he's better than Dark. Now that Dark has known about Serral and has a week to prepare, we'll see if Serral can play ball (and no redshift shenanigans this time either).
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We'll see! I look forward to (I hope) Serral beating Dark.
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I really hope Dark just stomps Serral out of Blizzcon so his fans can quiet down a bit. Every TL thread is so annoying right now. Serral is the best foreigner ever, has the second best results of 2018 so far, and is at minimum a top 5 player currently skill-wise potentially higher but there isn't enough data vs top players to say any better than that. I don't get why his fans can't just take that for now. That is already absolutely amazing. If he wins Blizzcon that can be re-evaluated but that is really all that can be said about him if looked at objectively. Anything beyond that is just pure fanboy talk.
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On October 31 2018 14:47 JJH777 wrote:
I really hope Dark just stomps Serral out of Blizzcon so his fans can quiet down a bit. Every TL thread is so annoying right now. Serral is the best foreigner ever, has the second best results of 2018 so far, and is at minimum a top 5 player currently skill-wise potentially higher but there isn't enough data vs top players to say any better than that. I don't get why his fans can't just take that for now. That is already absolutely amazing. If he wins Blizzcon that can be re-evaluated but that is really all that can be said about him if looked at objectively. Anything beyond that is just pure fanboy talk.
Pretty sure people said the same before Korea vs the World, before his 2nd WCS win, before his 3rd WCS win and before his fourth WCS win.
"Yeah Guys Serral is good but come on he is only 300 Points above everyone else on the Ladder, won every WCS Tournament this Year, won korea vs the world beating all the best koreans and 4:0ed his Group at Blizzcon against Zest and sOs. Sure he is good but he needs to win atleast Blizzcon 2018 and Blizzcon 2019 before we can really call him the best player in the world."
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i feel like both extremes are wrong (like its often the case in all fields):
Yes, Serral did lose some games and got beaten by maru in the beginning of the year.
Yes, he can lose and isnt unbeatable.
On the other hand:
Yes, Serral pretty much owned the WCS events.
Yes, he went on par with the best koreans: stats, dark and maru in the recent global event (GSL Super Tournament).
We can surely say that he is on the same level as the top koreans and we can say that he isnt unbeatable.
If he wins or loses at blizzcon doesnt say if he is worth or better than the top koreans. he could win it cuz he is on the same lvl. but its equally likely that he will be beaten from dark, ty, rogue or someone else.
why dont we just appreciate that we have one foreigner that is clearly on the highest skill level and have elite koreans that go par with him and maybe will beat him with good preparation?
someone with good game knowlede cant deny that serrals macro, micro and multitasking is on the same level like the top koreans. the winner of serral against dark (ty, rogue ...) will be decided through form of the day and preperation.
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So, the current problem of starcraft is "can the non-korean player win fcking Blizzcon"?
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On October 31 2018 17:52 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 14:47 JJH777 wrote:
I really hope Dark just stomps Serral out of Blizzcon so his fans can quiet down a bit. Every TL thread is so annoying right now. Serral is the best foreigner ever, has the second best results of 2018 so far, and is at minimum a top 5 player currently skill-wise potentially higher but there isn't enough data vs top players to say any better than that. I don't get why his fans can't just take that for now. That is already absolutely amazing. If he wins Blizzcon that can be re-evaluated but that is really all that can be said about him if looked at objectively. Anything beyond that is just pure fanboy talk. Pretty sure people said the same before Korea vs the World, before his 2nd WCS win, before his 3rd WCS win and before his fourth WCS win. "Yeah Guys Serral is good but come on he is only 300 Points above everyone else on the Ladder, won every WCS Tournament this Year, won korea vs the world beating all the best koreans and 4:0ed his Group at Blizzcon against Zest and sOs. Sure he is good but he needs to win atleast Blizzcon 2018 and Blizzcon 2019 before we can really call him the best player in the world."
and which of those results puts him above the top koreans?
He won a tournament in which all the top players competed - so did Stats, Classic, Rogue and Maru×3.
He won all WCS tournaments but looking at the winrates of top koreans vs foreigners it's highly likely they would've done the same in Serral's spot. Hell, Neeb won 3/4 WCS tournaments last year and got bopped at every global event minus Kespa Cup in 2016.
Serral may be the 2nd best or even best player in the world but there just isn't any data that supports this claim and until there is claiming he's the best is just annoying fanboy talk.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On October 31 2018 17:52 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2018 14:47 JJH777 wrote:
I really hope Dark just stomps Serral out of Blizzcon so his fans can quiet down a bit. Every TL thread is so annoying right now. Serral is the best foreigner ever, has the second best results of 2018 so far, and is at minimum a top 5 player currently skill-wise potentially higher but there isn't enough data vs top players to say any better than that. I don't get why his fans can't just take that for now. That is already absolutely amazing. If he wins Blizzcon that can be re-evaluated but that is really all that can be said about him if looked at objectively. Anything beyond that is just pure fanboy talk. Pretty sure people said the same before Korea vs the World, before his 2nd WCS win, before his 3rd WCS win and before his fourth WCS win. "Yeah Guys Serral is good but come on he is only 300 Points above everyone else on the Ladder, won every WCS Tournament this Year, won korea vs the world beating all the best koreans and 4:0ed his Group at Blizzcon against Zest and sOs. Sure he is good but he needs to win atleast Blizzcon 2018 and Blizzcon 2019 before we can really call him the best player in the world."
Most of the people say - yes, Serral is good, most probably in the top5 players we currently have, but we cannot say for sure because his games against another top players(aka Koreans) are so limited and there's so few of them, that we cannot say for sure. And some of these people get annoyed when you say he's the best of the best, because he won 1 invitational tournament where most Koreans didn't even know him and 1 BO1 of a showmatch... This devaluates GSL Code S so much. And it's not just his fanboys, it's the casters too. Serral is the best because he won the group 4:0. Right after Maru dominated his group, dominated the harder competition and is playing with a race most foreigners don't know how to play and have to archon it to at least simulate Maru-like potential...
Do you get where I aim? Yes? No? Maybe?
Edit>
Yes, there will be Korean elitits and yes, there will be haters. Similarly there are WCS fanboys and Korean haters.
But most people accept where Serral is but are not fanboy enough to put him to the best without bigger number of matches played against the best. And that won't happen so you have to accept that too. Serral playes so few matches against the best that we cannot evaluate him properly. What we can do properly - we can say he's by far the best current WCS player. Because his game pool in WCS is big enough so we can make conclussions. FFS even the 3:0 from Maru is just 1 match which proves shit.
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6 -3 on the maps and 2 - 1 on the matches of the dark killed the serral
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i feel like both extremes are wrong (like its often the case in all fields):
Yes, Serral did lose some games and got beaten by maru in the beginning of the year.
Yes, he can lose and isnt unbeatable.
On the other hand:
Yes, Serral pretty much owned the WCS events.
Yes, he went on par with the best koreans: stats, dark and maru in the recent global event (GSL Super Tournament).
We can surely say that he is on the same level as the top koreans and we can say that he isnt unbeatable.
If he wins or loses at blizzcon doesnt say if he is worth or better than the top koreans. he could win it cuz he is on the same lvl. but its equally likely that he will be beaten from dark, ty, rogue or someone else.
why dont we just appreciate that we have one foreigner that is clearly on the highest skill level and have elite koreans that go par with him and maybe will beat him with good preparation?
someone with good game knowlede cant deny that serrals macro, micro and multitasking is on the same level like the top koreans. the winner of serral against dark (ty, rogue ...) will be decided through form of the day and preperation.
To much common sense here, this is clearly an emotional argument that is taking place. Don't bring logic and thought into it.
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The saddest thing in my opinion is that if serral does lose in ro8 there will be people pretending that he never had a chance to win the tournament in the first place. I think it's pretty clear to see that he has the skill to win it, but that doesn't always mean it will happen.Hopefully he can prove atleast some of the doubters wrong.
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Maru has such unforgiving strong TvP. I wonder if Stats will be able to adjust his play based on what he sees in sOs vs. Maru.
TY isn't gonna beat Rogue.
I think Serral vs. Maru is a most likely outcome, but Stats gets to play Bo5's and then a Bo7 against Serral. I think he will ruin it for everyone and become champion. Counting out Stats is a bad idea.
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On November 01 2018 00:58 jeputera wrote:Show nested quote +i feel like both extremes are wrong (like its often the case in all fields):
Yes, Serral did lose some games and got beaten by maru in the beginning of the year.
Yes, he can lose and isnt unbeatable.
On the other hand:
Yes, Serral pretty much owned the WCS events.
Yes, he went on par with the best koreans: stats, dark and maru in the recent global event (GSL Super Tournament).
We can surely say that he is on the same level as the top koreans and we can say that he isnt unbeatable.
If he wins or loses at blizzcon doesnt say if he is worth or better than the top koreans. he could win it cuz he is on the same lvl. but its equally likely that he will be beaten from dark, ty, rogue or someone else.
why dont we just appreciate that we have one foreigner that is clearly on the highest skill level and have elite koreans that go par with him and maybe will beat him with good preparation?
someone with good game knowlede cant deny that serrals macro, micro and multitasking is on the same level like the top koreans. the winner of serral against dark (ty, rogue ...) will be decided through form of the day and preperation. To much common sense here, this is clearly an emotional argument that is taking place. Don't bring logic and thought into it.
Lol! truth.
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EPT
