Managing an army consisting of several unit types is often challenging, because you have to be ready to use multiple abilities quickly. Especially with spellcasters, if there are multiple types, you have to switch very quickly between them to be able to execute all orders in time. The main issue is that only one unit type can be active within a selection of units at a time and you have to switch between them with Tab to reach the intended unit group. Another problem is the priority—units have a predefined priority order in which they follow each other when cycling through a selection with Tab, and this order is often counterintuitive and leads to annoying situations. For example, in a selection of Ravens, Ghosts and Marines, the Raven has the highest priority, which means its spells can be used by default. To access the other units, you have to press Tab. Another example is the Mothership for the Protoss, which has the highest priority, even though it only has one active ability (Time Warp), which is pretty inconsequential and rarely used, so grouping the Mothership with the army causes a constant need of pressing Tab to reach other spellcasters. A potential method to combat this problem is binding different spellcasters to different hotkeys. This, however, requires several control groups, and you still have to select each control group before using them. At least it ensures that you have to press only one key before you can use the desired ability, instead of hitting Tab repeatedly. However, there are still changes that could be made to make controlling complex armies easier, and some of them are not even that big.
Customizable Priorities One potential change could be implementing an option to customize unit group priorities. This is a relatively small quality-of-life change that would still help a lot in situations described above. It would not make it easier to use multiple abilities fast, but could prevent the annoying priority issues (Mothership, Raven etc.). This idea has been brought up several times in the past, recently on Reddit.
Unified Command Card For controlling complex armies, the best would be if all abilities in a selection of units could be cast at the same time. This is obviously infeasible, as it would require a huge number of hotkeys and a lot of icons to be displayed on the command card. The concept of the Unified Command Card still aims to achieve this as closely as possible. The proposition is to have “Priority Groups,” just as we have priorities for different unit groups, but each Priority Group could contain multiple units—as many as there are empty spaces for their abilities on the command card. For example, High Templars with Disruptors could form the highest Priority Group, so the player could easily use Psionic Storm and Purification Nova at the same time. The command card would show all abilities of the High Templar and the Disruptor (unless either unit is missing entirely from the selection—the corresponding icons would disappear then). Pressing Tab would switch to the second Priority Group, which could contain, for example, Stalkers and Adepts, and so on. This concept includes the customization of priorities (since any unit can be placed in any Priority Group), and is a generalization of the current system, in the sense that the current system could be realizable with the Unified Command Card, if every unit is in its own Priority Group. A mockup of a possible Hotkey menu for Protoss units is shown below:
In this example, the first Priority Group consists of the High Templar, Disruptor, Sentry, Stalker and Dark Templar. The second one has the Zealot, Adept, Archon, Immortal and Colossus, etc. The in-game command card, using the Hotkey settings in the above picture, would look something like this:
Notice that all the units in Priority Group 1 (High Templars, Disruptors, Sentries, Stalkers, Dark Templars) are marked selected in the wireframe area. A similar idea is implemented in the “Raze” arcade mod:
Ability number indicators Optionally, a number could be displayed in the bottom right corner of each ability of a unit selection that indicates how many of that ability are ready for use, based on the amount of energy the selected units have. For example, a selection with 2 full energy High Templars would display “4” on the Psionic Storm icon and “8” on the Feedback icon. This makes it easier to assess the strength of your army, and could even be used in professional casts.
Summary These quality-of-life changes would make handling complex armies easier, allowing players to better execute their strategies. It might have small balance implications, in that it makes spellcasters overall better units (easier control).
Note: Suggestions like this inevitably bring up the question whether making the game easier to play is beneficial or not (see: macro mechanics). I am strongly of the opinion that the game is already hard enough (speed, decision making, knowledge of the meta and build orders, exact execution etc.), so changes like this, which make the game less stressful and enjoyable for players, are always a good idea. Some people will disagree and say being mechanically taxing is a core part of the game and therefore no simplifications should be introduced. This is also a valid standpoint, so these ideas are probably not aimed for people who think like that.
I'm afraid your topic idea is a bit too late in the game for the devs to suddenly go and make changes like this.
For me however, stuff like this is simple 101 GUI mechanics, that should have been in since day 1. These games have so much focus on managing a large army, a large army with a lot of unit types with a lot of them having spells and abilities. But the game hardly throws you any bones in order to make all of this more easy and manageable. The game kinda wants or forces you to do everything with groups and tabbing and that's basically it. And hotkeys ofcourse.
If anything, I feel SCII's GUI is hardly improved over what Broodwar started back in 1998, in the same way I feel Warcraft III did nothing to the system other then add a space for items. A game só focused on hero management and a small support army circling that unit, but it feels like the only thing the game gives you is the hero's icon with HP and mana in the top left, which to me always felt kinda tacked on or a last minute addition.
Also to ask a question about your idea: is it really needed that we waste 5 buttons on those universal move/attack/stop/whathaveyou buttons? I grow tired of seeing them, and frankly I hardly use them at all. Is there actually anyone at all playing this, that before attacking something, they first press that Attack button? How hard is it to teach/tell people the concept of rightclick and the A-key? Did I ever press that Stop button at all ? Whenever would my units go into a crazed frenzy that I need to hammer away on that Stop button? What's the reason for these buttons? If you get rid of them, bam, insta space for 5 more spells.
displaying # of spells might be a slight improvement, but i don't quite agree with anything else.
it's not that people think that way, it's that they rather have it be an RTS where you need to make key decisions at many pivotal points in the game, over being a moba with minimal keypresses to do everything that you want to do.
i'd rather not see everyone rolling around with one army hotkey because that's all that's ever required. it's prevalent as it is and it would then pose the problems of positioning spellcasters and AOE being too strong because players are unwilling to use the readily available tools to them. as is, players are missing out on an entirely different side to playing the game because of the unwillingness to use hotkeys to be attentive to little details requiring them to control multiple groups of units at once.
unit groups or hotkeys are what makes multitasking possible.
there's a burden of information by having all the spells on the command card in the first place. all these extra hotkeys that can't conflict and you still don't quite know the cooldown to or the mana requirements for. the rabbit hole continues. and what happens if you group buildings into your unit control groups too? can you now produce while controlling your army?
after that point you may as well have UI addons like spell icons off-center of the screen, or number indicators or a glow above each caster to show mana amounts and the ability to cast spells.
the whole point of the burden on players in RTS is all to show a distinct difference in skill level or the ability to do things that people normally don't do. multitasking doesn't come naturally, but the benefits to it become apparent when you experience the difference it makes. ther's yet another problem that if everyone can suddenly control ghosts and MMM in the same groups, emp and stim on the same selection, engagements would go even quicker than they have ever been. it's been a reoccurring criticism of the game since WoL. why would one army be much more effective (faster and easier) to use than another? where does the line draw and weaknesses are imposed on that kind of army?
if you truly need to lower the burden that the constant action imposes, you lower the speed of the game. that is very evidently not the focus of the design ever since LotV came around.
starcraft 1 never truly had spectator tools, nor did you have anything like a production tab to begin with. there are so many little details and very nearly none of it was displayed, yet how was it still a great spectator sport? why was it still accessible? because there are still talking points, commentators and observers can still access a large majority of the information any time they like, and there's enough time within a game to do so. there isn't a problem with misinformation and assuming incorrectly the strength of army, numbers, or relative strength between opponents from the spectator side--going against expectations is something that makes it more exciting. but would they have enjoyed the features with that game? most likely not. it wouldn't be nearly the same watching experience nor would it make it more inherently enjoyable either.
this is a game of skill matchups and stylistic differences, not a day at work where you have one or two tools you would never practically change. ease =/= good or better. ease = instant gratification, in this case because you know you don't need to learn a different method of play, and because you can do everything you want to do without actually increasing the skillset linked to army control. you assume correctly that it panders towards a players with a certain playstyle. and that is that they don't want to change their playstyle but they want to do what better players are doing without the hassle they know well.
this is not the elitism i'm going for, but i'm here to say it's not better for the game nor the player. should you be given the option to use the QoL change? absolutely, sure, but it would be a handicap all the way to the top level to not use the tool. if you fill a larger container of water multiple times a day, you are likely to consume more water than if you were to figure out the portioning of the same amount in smaller glasses of water, if you are the type that struggles to drink enough in the day. both mentally and physically it can be more convenient. because you have it in front of you, you push yourself to "finish" the glass, whatever amount or however large it may be, rather than to fill what you are comfortable with and merely drinking the minimum.
everybody who uses spellcasters often or wishes they could use spellcasters, but also understand the current difficulty of it knows generally how they'd benefit if they were better with army control. you're changing the game rather than changing the way that players think or play. it's not a guiding direction like a slight nerf to popular heroes or removing reward from certain playstyles in other games. it's getting everyone to play differently albeit in later game situations that are so rare in the first place.
who ever complained that they can't force field and feedback on the same command card, or complained about having to use ghosts separately? you literally create a separate hotkey for them which takes 4 button presses maximum. without situated armies, it is 2 presses added. with situated armies, it is yet again, 4 presses maximum. this is the "elitism", because i feel it's so overstated how difficult that can be. you make up for mechanical skill with foresight. if you cannot do that either, then you have no right to be frustrated with the game because there are many more problems that exist outside of army control and management, present in your play and also in the core gameplay.
On September 02 2018 17:55 Masemium wrote: Also to ask a question about your idea: is it really needed that we waste 5 buttons on those universal move/attack/stop/whathaveyou buttons? I grow tired of seeing them, and frankly I hardly use them at all. Is there actually anyone at all playing this, that before attacking something, they first press that Attack button? How hard is it to teach/tell people the concept of rightclick and the A-key? Did I ever press that Stop button at all ? Whenever would my units go into a crazed frenzy that I need to hammer away on that Stop button? What's the reason for these buttons? If you get rid of them, bam, insta space for 5 more spells.
The thing is, those 5 buttons are all as important as other spells, probably even more. Of course no one clicks on them, but you don't click on Storm either, when you use it, do you? Abilities, IMO, are mostly on the command card to show what abilities are active at a given time, and what their hotkeys are, not to actually click them (except for very beginners). Of course, after some time, you learn even that, so the command card is pretty unnecessary in its entirety then. Also, the issue here is not really how many icons can fit onto the command card—you could redesign it so there is space enough for 20 icons. The questions is, would you have 20 hotkeys you can confortably use every time independently, and would you acually really want to use all of those abilities at the same time? You can see, if you remove those 5 icons from the command card, they still have their hotkeys, so you don't really win anything, other than, well, them not being visible on the command card.
I think you did a mistake here by mixing several concepts in the same post.
Unit custom priority in itself would have been enough to bring up, and it would not cost a lot of ressources to implements. The fact that you also propose all the interface change will simply make people think that it is too much.
As you said and as I thought when I saw that reddit thread, having customizable priority is simply much more convenient, and there is no reason not to implement it.
On September 02 2018 18:46 Ej_ wrote: Nice, now you can F2 and spam all spells without ever pressing the TAB, because the life for deathballs has been a bit too hard.
For me, this topic somewhat falls in the overall idea that Starcraft's GUI, but a lot of other games' GUI's too, are just bad in general and do a bad job of presenting options to the players.
I'm well aware the F2-button and A-attack are a "problem" and somewhat of a meme of this game, but I'm somewhat of the opinion that if the GUI was better, easier to use, better to see what units I have and what options I have with them, people would be more inclined to try out spells and abilities and unit stances and stuff. I know atleast in my case, but I'm as far removed from a "serious player" as can be, but when I just mass select a whole bunch of 135 units of all kinds of types and casters, I'm just going f*ck it and A-moving all over the place. The game itself doesn't really punish me for doing so, and trying to fish out a couple Infestors so they may or may not cast fungal is at that point just a hassle.
Give me more options and controls to control my army and I might actually make use of my units more.
But hey, I'm well aware the game is how it is, and the Starcraft community in general is against change of any kind, even though the majority is always complaining and doesn't seem happy with the current state of the game.
On September 02 2018 19:38 Sholip wrote:The thing is, those 5 buttons are all as important as other spells, probably even more. Of course no one clicks on them, but you don't click on Storm either, when you use it, do you?
I can give a pass to Patrol and Hold Position, but attack/stop/move are as basic RTS commands as can be. Why do Blizzard RTS have the need to give these buttons?
On September 02 2018 19:38 Sholip wrote: You can see, if you remove those 5 icons from the command card, they still have their hotkeys, so you don't really win anything, other than, well, them not being visible on the command card.
The hotkeys remain, as well as rightlclick to attack and move. I dunno, at this point it's just becoming a pet peeve of mine, no worries.
On September 02 2018 21:34 MKStyles wrote: Nice make the Game more easier
I'm all in for removing F2 and its button entirely, as well as making units hitbox or whatever I should call it bigger or other tweaks to combat "death ball".
A-move is a generic RTS command, so I'm not sure if we can tinker with that.
I'm looking at this from a different point of view. If I select 127 units, I want to SEE and KNOW what those 127 units are and what they can DO.
The current GUI is lacking in that regard. You can fix a whole lot with groups, but I've seen a couple RTS where the GUI seemed to place a much bigger emphasize on groups. Also tabbing through a whole load of units is just messy. Can you even tab in reverse??
The community will endlessly bitch and whine and complain about SC2, but at the same time they believe the game is 100% perfect as it is. Please choose one or the other.
Personally I just type this all out because I like throwing ideas around and see if someone has a cool idea, I'm well aware how game development works and that frankly, it's a bitch of a job.
ye i agree sc2 ui isnt exactly an improvement, they knew they just had to include mbs and 255 unit select and that stupid f2 and such things to sell that as a big feature and then adjust the game for that with macro mechanics. it never was elegant to begin with and it just spiraled out over the years with even more speeded up gameplay. bw in contrast has its ui down to perfection, yes its hard and eveything, but also fluid and the game is somehow balanced around it too. all from the 1.0 too. sc2 just never felt as complete. yes it can be argued that making spells castable like OP proposes would strenghten the deathballs and yes game woudl have to be rebalanced, but it wouldnt be so annoying to play. i mean if thats the issue, then we could just go back to dune 2, no control groups no mousebox selecting units, nothing. how about that? yes OP is right, everybody whines so much about the game, yet theyd change nothing. anyway, id say it doesnt matter in the slightest, it wouldnt change much, the game is still flawed so much its only the tip. im sorry to say that, i wish it wasnt true.
so i dont think theres a good way to actualy solve this ever present problem of having so many units with so many spells, which ofc in sc2 theres so much, almost every unit has an activatable ability of sorts, instead of actual movement based micro that all u get is a clusterfuck of hotkeys. you can make 20 abilities on difrent hotkeys, but thatd also mean if u select a single unit, itd have that hotkey for its 1 ability there. the way id solve this is introducing more general hotkeys like the current attack move, stop, hold, patrol etc, just more like attack ground, harras, keep distance, attack in melee etc etc say about 10 keys so they could be assigned to grid nicely and then tie the abilities of units to those hotkeys. example, siege tank wouldnt have a siege up button, but itd siege up when ud press the hold position button. things like that. i mean is that a good solution? because u do lose normal functionaly of those general commands, but itd solve the mess of hotkeys problem. i dont know. honestly the game isnt made for somethign like that anyway, but they could think about how to improve control schemes.
for more changes id made are for example somethign liek a draw with mouse ability to make formations and cast spells in lines or box and circle shapes with currently useless side mouse buttons. command shift queing coudl also be improved. not to mention having buildings on F keys as default for production and not mixing them up with units. or maybe even further, why not be able to create control groups like its possible currently and then actualy selecting entire control group with a mouse OR single units if u so desire, holding the other side mouse button. this is in response of other non blizzard rts havign squads but not being able to control individual units, while in blizzard rts, not able to control squads with mouse only. and another thing id change is the attack mvoe commands, having to press A and then click is redundant and shoudl possible be done with a single click as is with move command right click. as is castign spells, currently press its hotkey, then click, while it could be if u hold the spell key and just click away without repeating. theres so much ui related things it coudl be improved, but they never gave it a thought. just 255 unit select and lets balance the game aroudn that, somehow. well theyre still failing 8 years and counting.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DxIwf15.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/lSbCjzf.jpg)
