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Active: 665 users

Just an idea about widow mines

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Shathe
Profile Joined July 2017
Hungary422 Posts
April 04 2018 10:11 GMT
#1
People thought widow mines were op before patch, and now they are almost useless.

Now to find the middle ground, what if after it has shot it would still get revealed, but you could make it invisible again just by reburrowing it. So the opponent would have a window to kill it without detection, but with good micro there is a good chance you can save your mines .

Thoughts?
Serimek
Profile Joined August 2011
France2274 Posts
April 04 2018 10:16 GMT
#2
It's a simple and elegant idea.
SC2 is the best game to watch and was the best to play before I grew old and slow...
kinsky
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany368 Posts
April 04 2018 11:42 GMT
#3
i like it.
Lokxpr
Profile Joined December 2017
24 Posts
April 04 2018 11:46 GMT
#4
they are not useless they still do a ton of damage in pvt drops and still shit on zealots
LegoesRockRaider
Profile Joined April 2017
Denmark6 Posts
April 04 2018 11:56 GMT
#5
Very good idea. It would also indirectly make the widow mine upgrade better.
Everything is awesome
Mier19891
Profile Joined May 2015
United States75 Posts
April 04 2018 12:33 GMT
#6
On April 04 2018 20:56 LegoesRockRaider wrote:
Very good idea. It would also indirectly make the widow mine upgrade better.



It would quite directly make it MUCH better. One might even decry as OP.
Broodie
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada832 Posts
April 04 2018 12:35 GMT
#7
Ive been practicing with them quite a bit lately and it hasn't really been that difficult to unburrow them and run them away. They are cheap and super cost effective when they arent found out or have a special forward back up, like tanks or forward stutter army.

Maybe (as a contribution to the theology of this thread) the widow mine could have an animation that runs like 10 seconds quicker than the reload, which changes the color of the light on top, indicating a burrowable mine.

I dunno, also the reload speed in general feels just a tad too slow for its available counter-play

Just my thoughts
SilentLiquid.Broodie - Author of Tango Terminal, Ophilia RE, Cajun Quandary, & The Beneath
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 13:11:23
April 04 2018 13:10 GMT
#8
I think a better solution is to give back the invisible burrow when you get the mine uppgrade.

Your solution would mines too good in early TvP if you have high APM.

My solution would make early TvP mine drops less strong (which is good) but make mines much more useful in the midgame and the lategame where they underperform.

The last thing Terran needs is even more micro. The micro requirments for the race is already too high, the race should be playable even for those that are not Maru.

Dillon1
Profile Joined April 2015
118 Posts
April 04 2018 13:53 GMT
#9
Simplest solution would just have an armory required 100/100 upgrade, taking about a 1:30, That allows cloaking once more.

People also need to realize mines now have to be able to Either A. do massive dmg to cover their retreat, or B. be more of a perimiter unit than a trench unit used with marines and medivacs to hold ground..

With the upgrade however it would open up timings where a shitload of mines suddenly can revert back to parade styles
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
April 04 2018 14:27 GMT
#10
I like OPs idea better, I don't think the game should turn into "everything is an upgrade with a visual indicator" which seems to be the trend on a lot of these discussions.

One difficulty is conveying the "your widow mine is currently visible! but you can unburrow and reburrow to recloak it" visually. Think it might just be easier to have widow mines unburrow on shooting? Would be visually clear what's going on.

Mines staying invisible after tunneling claws seems okay to me as well, but I don't feel like there are that many upgrades in the game that have multiple side effects? Would be a bit inconsistent is all.
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
LongShot27
Profile Joined May 2013
United States2084 Posts
April 04 2018 14:38 GMT
#11
On April 04 2018 21:33 Mier19891 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 20:56 LegoesRockRaider wrote:
Very good idea. It would also indirectly make the widow mine upgrade better.



It would quite directly make it MUCH better. One might even decry as OP.


People call everything OP
If all men were created equal there would be no reason to declare it.
WeddingEpisode
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States356 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 14:56:23
April 04 2018 14:55 GMT
#12
Why didn't they just increase the cost of the original widow mine (maybe with some damage nerf)?
This would seem to directly address all the 'issues'.
Still diamond
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
April 04 2018 15:00 GMT
#13
On April 04 2018 23:55 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Why didn't they just increase the cost of the original widow mine (maybe with some damage nerf)?
This would seem to directly address all the 'issues'.

It would make them not viable as army units and still destroy mineral lines without a detection...?

???
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 16:03:35
April 04 2018 16:00 GMT
#14
The problem with the Widow Mine was that if you didn't have detection, they could outright win the game early. The lack of counterplay was poor game design and led to player frustration. It also limited the build order choices for Protoss in particular in PvT. The fix they did was the correct fix from a game design perspective.

This change presents the similar counterplay issues, and Widow Mine drops would again be too effective. Consider how cheap and easy they are to build, and the fact they deal near instant burst damage (which in itself limits counterplay to begin with). They never should have been as strong as they were.

A unit that is that cheap and can be Reactored shouldn't provide the amount of burst damage and map control that the old Widow Mine could provide.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
April 04 2018 16:44 GMT
#15
I would prefer reverting the mine nerf where (+15 vs shields) splash was removed.

That nerf was done because Protoss gateway units were struggling, exactly the opposite of what is happening now.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Doink
Profile Joined April 2017
75 Posts
April 04 2018 18:42 GMT
#16
Has there been a patch recently? Since when are widow mines useless? Was the damage nerfed or something?
WeddingEpisode
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States356 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 19:29:29
April 04 2018 19:26 GMT
#17
On April 05 2018 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 23:55 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Why didn't they just increase the cost of the original widow mine (maybe with some damage nerf)?
This would seem to directly address all the 'issues'.

It would make them not viable as army units and still destroy mineral lines without a detection...?

???


Nexus should have the ability to reveal (momentarily) proximal cloaked units, at an energy cost equal to Terran's Orbital, .
Zerg and Terran can get detection easily enough.

Still diamond
StabiloBoss20
Profile Joined July 2015
313 Posts
April 04 2018 21:23 GMT
#18
i like where the mines are right now. not an obvious choice, but when used correctly they are still strong. they are still a very viable unit.

if you wanna safe them, unburrow them and run away. obviously dont work in every situation, but thats fine. dont forget they are only 75/25... thats 25 minerals more then a baneling. i think its fine, if they die after getting a shot of. a single mine can fail, but if you build a bunch its most of the time a very cost efficient unit.

WeddingEpisode
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States356 Posts
April 04 2018 22:20 GMT
#19
Well, or, true to real form, once mines have detonated, they're dead.
Still diamond
LTCM
Profile Joined May 2017
174 Posts
April 05 2018 00:23 GMT
#20
On April 05 2018 04:26 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
On April 04 2018 23:55 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Why didn't they just increase the cost of the original widow mine (maybe with some damage nerf)?
This would seem to directly address all the 'issues'.

It would make them not viable as army units and still destroy mineral lines without a detection...?

???


Nexus should have the ability to reveal (momentarily) proximal cloaked units, at an energy cost equal to Terran's Orbital, .
Zerg and Terran can get detection easily enough.


Why would it cost as much as a scan? A scan is way more powerful than what you are suggesting so there is absolutely no reason it should cost as much.

What they need to do is allow observers to be built from the nexus. Protoss is the only race that doesn't get detection from their base structures. Widow mines could then be reverted.
Byun is a convicted match-fixer.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
April 05 2018 02:25 GMT
#21
On April 05 2018 07:20 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Well, or, true to real form, once mines have detonated, they're dead.


And all units have ammo counters, and fuel gauges, and get tired, and every player has to fill out a hundred pages of paperwork on casualty reports and supply requisitions and logistics.

Realism is a terrible argument for anything in any game.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16699 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 04:45:04
April 05 2018 04:03 GMT
#22
On April 04 2018 22:10 MockHamill wrote:
I think a better solution is to give back the invisible burrow when you get the mine uppgrade.

Your solution would mines too good in early TvP if you have high APM.

My solution would make early TvP mine drops less strong (which is good) but make mines much more useful in the midgame and the lategame where they underperform.

The last thing Terran needs is even more micro. The micro requirments for the race is already too high, the race should be playable even for those that are not Maru.

i think this is a great idea.
On April 04 2018 22:10 MockHamill wrote:
The last thing Terran needs is even more micro. The micro requirments for the race is already too high, the race should be playable even for those that are not Maru.

true.
that said, i knew it was the most micro intense when i chose to play terran and i just accepted the fact that i'd lose to players who might be considered slightly worse than me who play as zerg or protoss.

i think players with less than 150 APM just have to accept the fact that the game won't be perfectly balanced for them. My APM is around 125 when i play on a regular basis.

I've watched other Code S Korean Terrans play on Twitch and the difference in their APM and my APM means that really..we're playing 2 different games.

Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
getg00d
Profile Joined April 2017
United States120 Posts
April 05 2018 04:54 GMT
#23
On April 05 2018 11:25 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 07:20 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Well, or, true to real form, once mines have detonated, they're dead.


And all units have ammo counters, and fuel gauges, and get tired, and every player has to fill out a hundred pages of paperwork on casualty reports and supply requisitions and logistics.

Realism is a terrible argument for anything in any game.


ha lelmfa0
https://www.twitch.tv/getg00d
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16699 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 05:23:41
April 05 2018 05:22 GMT
#24
On April 05 2018 11:25 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 07:20 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Well, or, true to real form, once mines have detonated, they're dead.


And all units have ammo counters, and fuel gauges, and get tired, and every player has to fill out a hundred pages of paperwork on casualty reports and supply requisitions and logistics.

Realism is a terrible argument for anything in any game.

increased realism has been a popular feature of video games for 40+ years.

+ Show Spoiler +

i couldn't explain it any better than George Plimpton.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
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