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TL.net ESPORTS
4 Posts
 Rogue's triumph at the GSL Super Tournament.  sOs, who held the #8 spot in the Korean ranking, was knocked out of the Global Finals in the process, leaving us with these sixteen players: These sixteen players will be split into the four groups below. 
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
A or B? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
And I don't think that soO can win against Neeb. Group D except first place is unpredictable. Group C is clearly the group of death | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On October 01 2017 23:06 Ej_ wrote: C is the group of death, it has only 1 foreigner. you mean D u_u | ||
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Kerdinand
Germany113 Posts
 I dont think any foreigner but Neeb has a realistic chance of making his group.Still sad for sOs though  , would have loved to the him at Blizzcon again! Lets atleast hope his traitorous teammate Rogue can make something happen! | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
Group B: Rogue First, Neeb Group C: herO, Dark (in whatever order) Group D: INnoVation, Gumiho (in whatever order) | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
Also, Protoss clearly overpowered, Zerg weakest race, nerf oracle | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
I meant Kelazhur, TRUE is American. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On October 01 2017 23:19 AzAlexZ wrote: Group A: TY, Stats (in whatever order) Group B: Rogue First, Neeb Group C: herO, Dark (in whatever order) Group D: INnoVation, Gumiho (in whatever order) Lack of faith in TY ! I disagree for Neeb. soO can make it in 2 bo because of his ZvZ, and then Rogue > Neeb. And Gumiho can be eliminated in ro16 too. Serral can be good enough to beat him if he don't choke. Only special builds can save Gumiho. | ||
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LastAergerer
6 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 01 2017 23:28 DieuCure wrote: Lack of faith in TY! I disagree for Neeb. soO can make it in 2 bo because of his ZvZ, and then Rogue > Neeb. And Gumiho can be eliminated in ro16 too. Serral can be good enough to beat him if he don't choke. Only special builds can save Gumiho. Lack of faith in TY!, not a fan to begin with, but I know his skill is there to make it out I disagree for Neeb. soO can make it in 2 bo because of his ZvZ, and then Rogue > Neeb. True, I'm just predicting that Rogue beats soO in the winners match and Neeb beats soO, also Neeb's vZ is Korean level imo so I think he can maybe beat Rogue (rematch curse), it's possible And Gumiho can be eliminated in ro16 too. possible but unlikely | ||
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beepbeeeeeeep
145 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 01 2017 23:57 LastAergerer wrote: The fact that Neeb only has to practice against a single race is a significant advantage. 2017 GSL Code S season 3 Classic had 3 Zergs's in his group and so he only had to practice vs zerg, yet he still finished last in his group. It's not about how many races you have to play against, it's about how good you are in that matchup. Granted Solar and TY both had 2 terrans in their group and finshed first place but my point still stands | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:02 Zaros wrote: Group B could be crazy, Neeb is a PvZ god but Rogue is just so good, but is Rogue's ZvZ good enough? soO and Nerchio are no joke in ZvZ. soO and Rogue played 5 times this year, starting from GSL S2 ro8. soO face him in GSL ro8, winning 3-2; in Master's Coliseum, beating him 3-1; and in SSL Challenge, crushing him 3-0 meanwhile Rogue beat him in GSL S3 Ro16, winning 2-1 (day before soO 3-0'd him), and beat him in the most recent encounter in Super tournament qualifier, winning 2-0 soO is leading 10-6 Still think soO's form is not as high as Rogue now, but we didn;t get to see Rogue vs a Zerg in yesterday's Shoutcraft or ST#2, so I have no idea how his ZvZ is. But soO lost to Dark 3-1, so we know what his ZvZ is like. | ||
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franzji
United States581 Posts
As for the other groups, group B is a fan favorite group. I think it's a group where a lot of people will be disappointed whoever doesn't make it out. If neeb makes it out we will probably have more balance whining from even though neeb is going to be so practiced in this matchup. In group C I how hero gets out because of the little protoss representation. He should get out, it's the easiest group imo otherwise. And group D is the group of death. Not sure what will happen, any predictions? | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:29 youngjiddle wrote: I am cheering for you snute! In recent years the spotlight has moved off you to other big players like neeb and serral, and I think you and the team liquid sponsership are underappreciated. I'm still your fan, I think your group isn't that bad and you will get out. As for the other groups, group B is a fan favorite group. I think it's a group where a lot of people will be disappointed whoever doesn't make it out. If neeb makes it out we will probably have more balance whining from even though neeb is going to be so practiced in this matchup. In group C I how hero gets out because of the little protoss representation. He should get out, it's the easiest group imo otherwise. And group D is the group of death. Not sure what will happen, any predictions? Gumiho + Inno is my safe prediction Not to say that I have no faith in Serral, cuz him making it out would be the bomb | ||
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:20 AzAlexZ wrote: 2017 GSL Code S season 3 Classic had 3 Zergs's in his group and so he only had to practice vs zerg, yet he still finished last in his group. It's not about how many races you have to play against, it's about how good you are in that matchup. Granted Solar and TY both had 2 terrans in their group and finshed first place but my point still stands Yep but classic sucks against zerg... can't say the same for neeb  | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:32 Clazziquai10 wrote: Yep but classic sucks against zerg... can't say the same for neeb yeah but we are talking about Rogue and soO not Elazer, True, Nerchio, Serral or Snute, not to say they are bad; just that their ZvP is not on Rogue and soO's level The last time that Neeb beat a korean Zerg (that is not True) was in August where he 3-0'd Solar in Olimoleague | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
TY's latest form isn't close to that of the beginning of the year (same goes for soO I think), so Snute has a chance in group A. Stats is going to be first there. A lot can happen in ZvZ, so Nercho has a small chance, we do remember what happened last year in a group with 3 zergs. Unlike herO, Neeb is the master of the macro and late game, so it will be tough for Rouge. Won't be surprised if Neeb will be first in that group, but in that group everything can happen with 3 zergs. Dark will probably take group C, but even though herO's chances aren't smaller then Elazer's, Elazer's ZvP is his strongest match-up, so I won't be surprised if Elazer will make it second out of that group. If I had to bet then its Gumiho out of group D rather then Serral. But Serral has a chance. He beat Byun on the Korean server yesterday, so its not like his ZvT is garbage. Innovation will make first out of this group, and among those who will finish first I think its the safest bet. The chances of the foreigners aren't that high, but I do see 2 of them in the RO8, and Neeb can even take his group I think. Neeb and 1 of Snute, Elazer, Serral, or Nerchio (in the order from the highest to the lowest chances). | ||
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:36 bulya wrote: My bet is 2 foreigners in the RO8. Can't say who they will be, and the highest chances are Neeb's, but the others can also do it. TY's latest form isn't close to that of the beginning of the year (same goes for soO I think), so Snute has a chance in group A. Stats is going to be first there. A lot can happen in ZvZ, so Nercho has a small chance, we do remember what happened last year in a group with 3 zergs. Unlike herO, Neeb is the master of the macro and late game, so it will be tough for Rouge. Won't be surprised if Neeb will be first in that group, but in that group everything can happen with 3 zergs. Dark will probably take group C, but even though herO's chances aren't smaller then Elazer's, Elazer's ZvP is his strongest match-up, so I won't be surprised if Elazer will make it second out of that group. If I had to bet then its Gumiho out of group D rather then Serral. But Serral has a chance. He beat Byun on the Korean server yesterday, so its not like his ZvT is garbage. Innovation will make first out of this group, and among those who will finish first I think its the safest bet. The chances of the foreigners aren't that high, but I do see 2 of them in the RO8, and Neeb can even take his group I think. Neeb and 1 of Snute, Elazer, Serral, or Nerchio (in the order from the highest to the lowest chances). Who wins when a Master of late game PvZ (Neeb) meets a Master of late game ZvP (Rogue)? the won who pulls off a more successful Guerrilla warfare aka who can harass better. The battle between an Unstoppable force (Rogue) and an Immovable object (Neeb) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:32 Clazziquai10 wrote: Yep but classic sucks against zerg... can't say the same for neeb pretty sure Classic has better PvZ than Neeb | ||
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Kruver
Mexico14 Posts
Group A: TY, Stats (in whatever order) Group B: Rogue First, Neeb Group C: herO, Dark (in whatever order) Group D: INnoVation, Gumiho (in whatever order) optimism  | ||
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geokilla
Canada8224 Posts
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ParksonVN
Australia370 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:47 Charoisaur wrote: pretty sure Classic has better PvZ than Neeb no doubt, people still underestimate Classic after all because he doesn't play versus easy players. | ||
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IArako
Germany195 Posts
 A: Stats, Snute B: Neeb, Rogue C: Dark, herO D: Innovation, Serral | ||
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Zzzapper
1791 Posts
On October 02 2017 00:47 Charoisaur wrote: pretty sure Classic has better PvZ than Neeb then how come Neeb's vZ Aligluac rating is 600 points higher for real though, even if comparing ratings for foreigner vs. korean doesn't make much sense, Neeb is the first foreigner to top the rankings since Stephano at his peak which is pretty crazy. I think Stephano's #1 is from before Aligulac actually went live but their back log of games is pretty good | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On October 02 2017 01:15 IArako wrote: Neeb, Snute and Serral gonna make it boys A: Stats, Snute B: Neeb, Rogue C: Dark, herO D: Innovation, Serral Your ro8 looks so unimpressive, i dont know why | ||
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[Svall]Granis
Sweden94 Posts
Also i dont like that it isnt 16 best player based on WCS points (if i understood it correctly) | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On October 02 2017 01:04 ParksonVN wrote: no doubt, people still underestimate Classic after all because he doesn't play versus easy players. He's certainly won against stronger opponents, but his overall vs Zerg record is fairly unimpressive. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On October 02 2017 01:57 [Svall]Granis wrote: INnoVation will win, ezpz Also i dont like that it isnt 16 best player based on WCS points (if i understood it correctly) It is, but 8 for each circuit. Not the most equal distribution, I grant it to you. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3415 Posts
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On October 02 2017 03:07 Morbidius wrote: Innovation always bombs when he's not playing in Korea. He won an IEM in Germany and has had multiple other top 4 and top 2 finishes outside of Korea... | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 02 2017 03:12 Boggyb wrote: He won an IEM in Germany and has had multiple other top 4 and top 2 finishes outside of Korea... All of that happened years ago. Inno hasn't played overseas since Blizzcon 2015, before Legacy even came out. Using years-old evidence to predict he will "bomb" seems a bit presumptive. As far as groups go, Inno got the best one. None of the 15 other players has a higher chance of advancing in first; 2 foreign Zergs and a player who hasn't delivered since June are as good as it gets at Blizzcon. True and Serral are nowhere near Rogue and Gumiho has been pretty unimpressive as of late, while Inno's TvT looks invincible. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Group B - soO>Nerch. Rogue>Neeb. Rogue>soO. Neeb>Nerch. Neeb>soO. Rogue and Neeb advance Group C - Dark>Kela. Elazer>herO. Dark>Elazer. herO>Kela. Elazer>herO. Dark and Elazer advance Group D - Inno>TRUE. Serral>Gumiho. Serral>Inno. Gumiho>TRUE. Gumiho>Inno. Serral and Gumiho (maybe Inno) will advance On October 02 2017 03:25 pvsnp wrote: All of that happened years ago. Inno hasn't played overseas since Blizzcon 2015, before Legacy even came out. Using years-old evidence to predict he will "bomb" seems a bit presumptive. Didn't he play in Nationwars, Katowice, and shangai this year? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Stats (1st) and TY (2nd) advance, high probability. Group B: Rogue has the best chance to advance in first, but that's predicated on him winning ZvZ, an uncertain matchup in the best of times. soO has a reasonable chance of defeating him in the mirror match to claim first, though his form has not been amazing as of late whereas Rogue is on fire. As strong as Neeb is, he is facing an uphill battle against two of the best ZvP players in the world. Neeb has a modest-to-decent chance to advance in second, but he is definitely not favored. I can't see any way for Nerchio to advance with all three of his opponents favored against him. Rogue and soO advance (any order), high probability. Group C: Who advances is obvious, which order is not. Dark and herO are both in excellent form and virtually guaranteed to advance; the only question is in who gets first. herO narrowly edged out Dark at the Super Tournament, but on the whole they seem very evenly matched. Elazer has a small chance of overcoming herO, but no more than that. Like Nerchio, I can't see any way for Kelazhur to advance. Dark and herO advance (any order), virtually guaranteed. Group D: Inno advancing in first is the easiest call to make in the entire Ro16. Neither Serral nor True have anything close to the ZvT skill needed to stand against him, and his TvT looks nearly invincible. Gumiho has failed to impress as of late, and he is losing his edge of unpredictability as mech becomes more and more standard. Despite that, he is still a very difficult opponent for any foreign Zerg, and should be the most likely to advance in second. Serral has the best chance of any foreigner to advance, but it's still even money at best. Assuming he doesn't lose to True again, he might just be able to overcome Gumiho and advance in second. True is only in a slightly better position than Nerchio and Kelazhur, and he'll most likely end up in the same boat. Inno (1st), virtually guaranteed. Gumiho (2nd), mildly likely--Serral (2nd), mildly unlikely. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 02 2017 03:49 Fango wrote: Group A - Stats>major. Snute>TY. Stats>Snute. TY>Major. TY>Snute. Stats and TY advance Group B - soO>Nerch. Rogue>Neeb. Rogue>soO. Neeb>Nerch. Neeb>soO. Rogue and Neeb advance Group C - Dark>Kela. Elazer>herO. Dark>Elazer. herO>Kela. Elazer>herO. Dark and Elazer advance Group D - Inno>TRUE. Serral>Gumiho. Serral>Inno. Gumiho>TRUE. Gumiho>Inno. Serral and Gumiho (maybe Inno) will advance Didn't he play in Nationwars, Katowice, and shangai this year? Lolwhoops forgot about those. NationWars was interesting but way back in January. He only lost to cheese there anyhow. Katowice happened before he fixed his TvT. Shanghai is the only one I would use as a decent predictor, and yes, Inno losing to herO is a reasonable possibility in Korea or outside of it. Inno might be the favorite, or it might be Rogue, but in both cases neither of them would be anything more than a slight favorite with good momentum. Look at the margins by which they won GSL Season 3 and the Super Tournament. Decider games all the way through. Any of Stats, Dark, Inno, Rogue, and herO are very close to dead even. I wouldn't be shocked to see any of them win/lose of any other. Your predictions seem pretty reasonable, with the glaring exception of Group D. Putting Serral or Gumiho over Inno when both history and form say otherwise....I'm going to assume you're just trolling. | ||
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asongdotnet
United States1060 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:03 pvsnp wrote: Stats (1st) and TY (2nd) advance, high probability. Rogue and soO advance (any order), high probability. Dark and herO advance (any order), virtually guaranteed. Inno (1st), virtually guaranteed. Gumiho (2nd), mildly likely--Serral (2nd), mildly unlikely. I disagree with a few of these. Snute can beat TY, Neeb can beat soO, Elazer can beat herO, Serral can beat Inno and Gumiho, and Gumiho can beat Inno Not saying they will 100% beat them, but they definitely have good shots edit: btw I'm not trolling when I predicted Serral over Gumi and Inno. I 100% believe that mech sucks and Serral can beat it. | ||
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ThreeSixDrew
Canada183 Posts
Neeb has the best shot of winning it all, or making it to the final (in terms of foreigners). Perhaps Nerchio, Snute, or Elazer could pull out a RO4, or longshot RO2. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:28 ThreeSixDrew wrote: I think we will have 2 or 3 foreigner in the RO8 and 1 in the RO4. Neeb has the best shot of winning it all, or making it to the final (in terms of foreigners). Perhaps Nerchio, Snute, or Elazer could pull out a RO4, or longshot RO2. Neeb has almost no chance against herO, Dark, Gumiho and Inno (and very little chance vs TY and Stats) the only Koreans in this tournament he can reliably beat are soO and True everyone else would stomp him or take it to 5 games | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:14 Fango wrote: I disagree with a few of these. Snute can beat TY, Neeb can beat soO, Elazer can beat herO, Serral can beat Inno and Gumiho, and Gumiho can beat Inno Not saying they will 100% beat them, but they definitely have good shots edit: btw I'm not trolling when I predicted Serral over Gumi and Inno. I 100% believe that mech sucks and Serral can beat it. You saw the bio TvZ that Inno played yesterday, right? And you remember the bio TvZ that Inno beat Serral with at GSL vs the World, despite throwing away 30 supply for free? I'm really not sure how you (or anyone) can conclude that Serral can defeat Inno when Inno has both beaten Serral and players far more skilled than Serral (Rogue, Dark). Regarding mech, I'm far from convinced that SH are the be-all-end-all that avilo raves about. Certainly they are strong, and certainly Rogue won with them but I think that has more to do with Rogue's skill than SH themselves. Macro was the deciding factor in both of the mech games. Also, Inno never tried battle mech, which I intuitively think would counter SH. Bluntly put, I simply don't think Serral has the macro to beat Inno. He has a better chance against Gumiho because Gumiho's bio is pretty trash, but I would call them even at best. Similar argument applies to Snute vs TY. soO defeated Stats, he can definitely beat Neeb (though I expect it to be somewhat close). herO beat Dark and went 3-4 against Rogue, he can most certainly defeat Elazer. Gumiho can beat Inno, sure, anything can happen in a mirror. But Inno has a far more impressive TvT record in recent times, and far more impressive form in general to boot. In general, the foreigners are facing an uphill battle. Certainly some of them could win. But is it likely? I really don't think so. | ||
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Legan
Finland368 Posts
Group A has Stats, Dark and TY. All of them will be at Blizzcon, and Stats and TY will also share group there. Group B has first one of two foreigners that are in Blizzcon, Serral, and also INnoVation. They will also share their group at Blizzcon. Group C has the second foreigner, Elazer, that gets to play against Rogue for ZvZ, Byun for ZvT and Classic ZvP to show his current level at each matchup. Only Rogue will be also at Blizzcon. Group D has SoO, GuMiho and HerO, that will be at Blizzcon. They will not face each other again at group stage but also did not face each other at the Super Tournament. We can at least see the current level of play and is their practice paying off from Serral and Elazer. Also, these matches seem like the last matches that we will see them playing in Korea before them having to return to Europe to qualify for WESG. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:36 pvsnp wrote: You saw the bio TvZ that Inno played yesterday, right? And you remember the bio TvZ that Inno beat Serral with at GSL vs the World, despite throwing away 30 supply for free? I'm really not sure how you (or anyone) can conclude that Serral can defeat Inno when Inno has both beaten Serral and players far more skilled than Serral (Rogue, Dark). Regarding mech, I'm far from convinced that SH are the be-all-end-all that avilo raves about. Certainly they are strong, and certainly Rogue won with them but I think that has more to do with Rogue's skill than SH themselves. Macro was the deciding factor in both of the mech games. Also, Inno never tried battle mech, which I intuitively think would counter SH. Bluntly put, I simply don't think Serral has the macro to beat Inno. He has a better chance against Gumiho because Gumiho's bio is pretty trash, but I would call them even at best. Similar argument applies to Snute vs TY. soO defeated Stats, he can definitely beat Neeb (though I expect it to be somewhat close). herO beat Dark and went 3-4 against Rogue, he can most certainly defeat Elazer. Gumiho can beat Inno, sure, anything can happen in a mirror. But Inno has a far more impressive TvT record in recent times, and far more impressive form in general to boot. In general, the foreigners are facing an uphill battle. Certainly some of them could win. But is it likely? I really don't think so. Snute beat him, Serral can do it too | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On October 02 2017 02:05 DieuCure wrote: It is, but 8 for each circuit. Not the most equal distribution, I grant it to you. dunno why it bothers people so much. it's the same in other sports that have separate leagues and divisions. for years in MLB (baseball) the american league was considered stronger than the national league and before that vice versa. the champions from each league still play off for the final even if one league is better. the idea that all prize money and tournament money should go to the top core of players is weird, counterintuitive, and regressive. if there aren't opportunities for B leaguers to take prizes and championships there's no reason for them to play | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Snute beat him in an online Bo1 in Shoutcraft Kings, a tournament so notorious for overhyped upsets that TL wrote a (poorly-titled) article on the subject. Not exactly the strongest of evidence. Snute can win. Serral can win. They just aren't favored. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:36 pvsnp wrote: You saw the bio TvZ that Inno played yesterday, right? And you remember the bio TvZ that Inno beat Serral with at GSL vs the World, despite throwing away 30 supply for free? I'm really not sure how you (or anyone) can conclude that Serral can defeat Inno when Inno has both beaten Serral and players far more skilled than Serral (Rogue, Dark). Regarding mech, I'm far from convinced that SH are the be-all-end-all that avilo raves about. Certainly they are strong, and certainly Rogue won with them but I think that has more to do with Rogue's skill than SH themselves. Macro was the deciding factor in both of the mech games. Also, Inno never tried battle mech, which I intuitively think would counter SH. If Inno plays bio, he can beat Serral any day. But I don't trust him to, every terran seems to think mech is the way. Now I'm not an avilo fan by any means, but SW-viper just destroys it. I haven't seen mech work anywhere since Inno beat Dark with it, so I can easily credit that to Inno suprising him, and Dark not preparing for mech As far as gumiho goes, his TvZ isn't even that good. I've been saying this for a while and he hasn't been able to sway my opinion, he won GSL of the back of TvT. Serral stomped him in the map test tournament the other day as well. I think Serral will beat Gumiho in the first round, whether he beats Inno or not is up for debate | ||
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lastride
2390 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12043 Posts
edit: Serral has the best chance probably | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
On October 01 2017 23:19 Kerdinand wrote: So.... Ro8 only Koreans confirmed? I dont think any foreigner but Neeb has a realistic chance of making his group.Still sad for sOs though , would have loved to the him at Blizzcon again! Lets atleast hope his traitorous teammate Rogue can make something happen!As I expect, sOs will be playing at BlizzCon, that means, one of the Koreans before him will not be able to play, so the groups will shift and sOs will go to the group with Nerchio and Neeb. | ||
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Kitai
United States869 Posts
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DSh1
292 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:59 Fango wrote: If Inno plays bio, he can beat Serral any day. But I don't trust him to, every terran seems to think mech is the way. Now I'm not an avilo fan by any means, but SW-viper just destroys it. I haven't seen mech work anywhere since Inno beat Dark with it, so I can easily credit that to Inno suprising him, and Dark not preparing for mech As far as gumiho goes, his TvZ isn't even that good. I've been saying this for a while and he hasn't been able to sway my opinion, he won GSL of the back of TvT. Serral stomped him in the map test tournament the other day as well. I think Serral will beat Gumiho in the first round, whether he beats Inno or not is up for debate Oh I see. Well, Serral > Inno's mech is a much more reasonable conclusion than Serral > Inno's bio given the evidence we have to work with. But we saw yesterday that Inno realized mech wouldn't work and switched to bio. I don't see how he wouldn't make the same choice at Blizzcon. That's assuming that he even bothers to try mech at Blizzcon; after what happened yesterday I guarantee Inno is giving some serious thought as to whether he should practice bio or mech in TvZ, and which styles to practice them in. I cannot possibly imagine that the Korean Zergs don't try SH against mech on ladder in the next month, nor can I imagine that Inno (and the other Terrans) will not find either a counter or an alternative way to approach TvZ given that they have a month to prepare. And like I said before, I think you give too much credit to SH and not enough to Rogue. They aren't some magical freewin panacea, and raw macro strength goes a long way in TvZ. Rogue and Inno have that kind of strength in spades, but Serral? Rogue defeated Inno's mech by soft-containing him and slowly wearing him down with SH+Vipers until Inno was forced to either attack or die a slow death. Suiciding one army to get rid of Inno's screen, followed by a crackling remax to clean up the tanks was how he finished. All of that requires a lot of mechanical skill, expanding all over the map while keeping up the pressure on Terran and deflecting any hellion/banshee/thor drop harass, and protecting the SH on cooldown. Rogue has the necessary skill, Dark probably does as well, but I'm not sure Serral does. Regarding Gumiho, I think you do have a point in that his TvZ is not amazing. But to claim that Serral is guaranteed to defeat him is pushing that a bit too far imo. Gumiho is virtually guaranteed to mech against Serral, since that's what he does, but similar to what I already said, I cannot imagine that Gumiho is not aware of how Rogue defeated Inno's mech, and he will try his utmost to find some kind of counter/workaround for that. At Blizzcon, Gumiho will play Serral in the first round. Inno will most certainly be watching that match, and can easily decide to go bio or mech based on how Gumiho does in that match. If he sees Serral stomp all over Gumiho, I don't see why you would think Inno would stick to mech. ^Hell, in 2015 when Inno's mech actually was basically unbeatable, he chose to go bio against Life. He made that choice in a far more favorable meta against a far stronger opponent. If he can make a choice like that, I don't see any reason he wouldn't go bio against Serral. TL;DR: I can't see Inno losing to Serral. Gumiho might lose. Gumiho might be able to take Inno out in a TvT as well. But Inno losing to a Zerg not named Dark/Rogue? I just can't see it happening. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Makro
France16890 Posts
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
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stevemachine17
45 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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ParksonVN
Australia370 Posts
On October 02 2017 04:59 Fango wrote: If Inno plays bio, he can beat Serral any day. But I don't trust him to, every terran seems to think mech is the way. Now I'm not an avilo fan by any means, but SW-viper just destroys it. I haven't seen mech work anywhere since Inno beat Dark with it, so I can easily credit that to Inno suprising him, and Dark not preparing for mech As far as gumiho goes, his TvZ isn't even that good. I've been saying this for a while and he hasn't been able to sway my opinion, he won GSL of the back of TvT. Serral stomped him in the map test tournament the other day as well. I think Serral will beat Gumiho in the first round, whether he beats Inno or not is up for debate it's ridiculous that somehow people think Zerg is favor against mech just because Rogue can do it  . | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 10:37 ParksonVN wrote: it's ridiculous that somehow people think Zerg is favor against mech just because Rogue can do it . Snute can also do it, even if it was only once | ||
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Azhrak
Finland1194 Posts
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rotta
5582 Posts
On October 02 2017 16:30 Azhrak wrote: I really hope at least one of the foreigners will go through to play at BlizzCon. I think Neeb, Serral or Snute will make it. Barcraft if Serral makes it? | ||
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Azhrak
Finland1194 Posts
Too bad there's no Buza anymore, those guys would let us stay past regular hours and watch BlizzCon until 7 AM. This is the problem with barcrafts for BlizzCon in Finland when we're 10 hours ahead of the local time. No public bar will be open for the whole thing so at best we'd see 2 matches (from 10 PM to 2 AM) and with bad luck those would not be Serral's matches. I've organized a private "office-craft" too for this reason in the past. At least I can ask around. Would be dope. | ||
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Azhrak
Finland1194 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ovYW71H.png) Sorry Kelazhur, run out of room. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
The only foreigner that looks like they might have a chance of advancing is Neeb, only one match up and soO hasn't looked as sharp lately. Rogue however looked fantastic, I'd be very surprised if Neeb got past him. Serral is probably equally fucked as Snute, two of the best TvZ's in Korea in his group. Although if Gumiho comes in with some oddball shit like he did in the last GSL season that doesn't work Serral MIGHT have a chance. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 02 2017 18:12 Vindicare605 wrote: Snute is so fucked lol but at least he only has to practice one match up. The only foreigner that looks like they might have a chance of advancing is Neeb, only one match up and soO hasn't looked as sharp lately. Rogue however looked fantastic, I'd be very surprised if Neeb got past him. Elazer is probably equally fucked as Snute, two of the best TvZ's in Korea in his group. Although if Gumiho comes in with some oddball shit like he did in the last GSL season that doesn't work Elazer MIGHT have a chance. I think you mean Serral, Elazer is in Group C with Dark, herO and Kelazhur | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On October 02 2017 18:14 AzAlexZ wrote: I think you mean Serral, Elazer is in Group C with Dark, herO and Kelazhur Yea just realized that, editing now. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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Corvuuss
Austria354 Posts
On October 02 2017 18:49 opisska wrote: I am really happy about the format, glad they didn't go with single elimination and that they didn't put all foreigners to one side of the bracket. This way we get some really great foreigner vs. korean action! Why would they ever do that, that would be even more stupid than anything blizzard has done before with WCS. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
Neeb vs Zergs Stats vs TY rematch (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_XI_-_World_Championship) Polish Dark vs Real Dark Serral vs Innovation rematch Perfect groups! | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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buffzerg33
96 Posts
Hope Dark will be champion. | ||
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IAmWithStupid
Russian Federation1016 Posts
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highsis
259 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 02 2017 10:37 ParksonVN wrote: it's ridiculous that somehow people think Zerg is favor against mech just because Rogue can do it . Rogue isn't why I say mech is bad. The entire korean terran collective are playing mech and none of them are winning right now. Rogue is just another top zerg who knows how to deal with it And I've been saying this for a while btw. I called every terran that goes mech in ST2 to lose before they even played. And guess what happened? I feel like people are hyping up Gumiho purely because he's a GSL champ, and ignoring his actual play. Providing no choking occurs, Serral is honestly better in the matchup | ||
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mbriantyne
3 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 03 2017 05:03 Fango wrote: Rogue isn't why I say mech is bad. The entire korean terran collective are playing mech and none of them are winning right now. Rogue is just another top zerg who knows how to deal with it And I've been saying this for a while btw. I called every terran that goes mech in ST2 to lose before they even played. And guess what happened? I feel like people are hyping up Gumiho purely because he's a GSL champ, and ignoring his actual play. Providing no choking occurs, Serral is honestly better in the matchup I hope you are wrong, but I fear you are right. Bio just isn't as strong as it used to be. Hydra/Ling/Bane basically guarantees that Ultras will hit the battlefield and from that point onward Zerg dictates the pace. TY and Inno will be the only top bio Terrans at Blizzcon, and unless they can level up fast it's going to be a sad Blizzcon for everyone who dislikes ZvZ. Is there any (legit) comp harder to control than MMM + Liberator/Ghost/Viking? | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On October 03 2017 05:03 Fango wrote: Rogue isn't why I say mech is bad. The entire korean terran collective are playing mech and none of them are winning right now. Rogue is just another top zerg who knows how to deal with it And I've been saying this for a while btw. I called every terran that goes mech in ST2 to lose before they even played. And guess what happened? I feel like people are hyping up Gumiho purely because he's a GSL champ, and ignoring his actual play. Providing no choking occurs, Serral is honestly better in the matchup Inno won GSL s3, SSL s1 and IEM Gyeonggi partly because of his mechplay against Zerg, so I do not know, he probably knows better than you, which strategy he should use | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 03 2017 05:35 MrWayne wrote: Inno won GSL s3, SSL s1 and IEM Gyeonggi partly because of his mechplay against Zerg, so I do not know, he probably knows better than you, which strategy he should use While I have no doubt Inno knows far better than anyone here how to mech against Zerg (and is probably working on a solution to SH at this very moment), it is probably worth noting that he faced 0 SH in all those tournaments. Personally, my theorycrafting says that battle mech is probably the way to go, but I'm curious to see what Inno comes up with. I'm just hoping that a viable answer does in face exist, because being forced into bio against LBH is a losing prospect. | ||
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Penev
28453 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 03 2017 05:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: when does group play take place? Nothing been announced yet, but presumably the week before like it usually is. So like October 27th or so. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 03 2017 05:35 MrWayne wrote: Inno won GSL s3, SSL s1 and IEM Gyeonggi partly because of his mechplay against Zerg, so I do not know, he probably knows better than you, which strategy he should use He played mech in one or two games in SSL, it wasn't the TvZ meta at the time. They worked becuase he suprised his opponents. Same with GSL season 3, Inno won because Dark wasn't prepared to deal with mech. This was clear from Dark's game decisions And if I'm so wrong, why has no high level terran won a mech game since Inno vs Dark in GSL then? That was clearly the moment that every terran decided it was the way. You say Inno knows what strats he should use not me right? Then why is it he got crushed in both mech games against Rogue, when I was the one saying he will lose if he mechs? He won 2/3 non-mech games to put a perspective on it, he can clearly win some games against Rogue with the usual bio tank style Look, I'm not trying to devalue Inno as a player. I'm simply saying that mech, in it's current state, is not viable. At least, not in the way terrans been recently using it. And ofc I'm not a trained coach, but results don't lie | ||
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 03 2017 07:00 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: There's 3 players I really want to win and they're all in Group B Rip I'm feeling inordinately pleased that the three players I cheer for are all in different groups. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
sOs is busy right now filling out military registration paperwork for immediate enlistment - in Rogue's name.Like, 85% sure. $O$ when he's pulled the levers: -->   <--Rogue when he finds out. | ||
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MoonyD
Australia191 Posts
On October 01 2017 23:20 KalWarkov wrote: Every group has 2 foreigners, except when you treat TRUE as a korean, then its D having only 1... Also, Protoss clearly overpowered, Zerg weakest race, nerf oracle There we go, was waiting to see how many comments down I'd have to read until someone starts complaining about a race being OP or too weak. No evidence or proof to back up your statement, just pure opinions that toss is OP because it's toss. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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maruzest
Korea (South)87 Posts
On October 03 2017 05:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: when does group play take place? https://blizzcon.com/en-us/esports/sc2 October 27th. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 03 2017 13:25 MoonyD wrote: There we go, was waiting to see how many comments down I'd have to read until someone starts complaining about a race being OP or too weak. No evidence or proof to back up your statement, just pure opinions that toss is OP because it's toss. when you miss the clear and obvious sarcasm in his post smh Need to up your sarcasm game my friend | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 03 2017 07:00 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: There's 3 players I really want to win and they're all in Group B At least "your" players are there | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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szwe
1 Post
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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slit
Spain212 Posts
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Penev
28453 Posts
But I got instructions from the team to participate in Proleague and focus solely on Proleague ugh.. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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Savagewood
United States83 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On October 04 2017 04:16 Savagewood wrote: REALLY wish we had SOS over TRUE. I really don't see sOs moving to a WCS Region, but it could happen I suppose. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
So WCS won't be played out in the arena at Blizzcon, sucks. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 04 2017 06:47 Ansibled wrote: https://blizzcon.com/en-us/schedule#fri-nov-3 So WCS won't be played out in the arena at Blizzcon, sucks. ugh, this has killed a lot of the blizzcon hype for me. The stage was a fucking spectacle. Considering the amount of extra money they (and we) have put into the WCS finals this year, to give us a downgrade just feels bad edit: ok as I've just learned from reddit, we still get the arena stage for the grand finals. I guess that's when like 80% of the viewers come in anyway haha | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 04 2017 01:06 Penev wrote: soO winning in the Blizzcon finals vs a terran, Innovation, would be the best SC2 story, for me ugh.. I hope iloveoov has a hard time sleeping after seeing this what the actual fuck? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On October 04 2017 14:30 AzAlexZ wrote: I hope iloveoov has a hard time sleeping after seeing this what the actual fuck? You are signed, housed and paid by SKT - you play for SKT. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On October 04 2017 09:10 Fango wrote: ugh, this has killed a lot of the blizzcon hype for me. The stage was a fucking spectacle. Considering the amount of extra money they (and we) have put into the WCS finals this year, to give us a downgrade just feels bad edit: ok as I've just learned from reddit, we still get the arena stage for the grand finals. I guess that's when like 80% of the viewers come in anyway haha You place too much emphasis on what is not | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On October 04 2017 14:50 Ej_ wrote: You are signed, housed and paid by SKT - you play for SKT. i totally fuking forgot about that lol me and my brain after a 2-and-a-half-hour exam rip | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 04 2017 15:06 DieuCure wrote: You place too much emphasis on what is not The blizzcon sc2 stage was iconic. Its disappointing to spend the year waiting to see it again, just for blizz to give it to overwatch | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
Well you will get it with two places instead of one ( because of the stream in the arena ). But I'm a little worried for the starcraft hall of honor | ||
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GohgamX
Canada1096 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
On October 04 2017 19:55 Fango wrote: The blizzcon sc2 stage was iconic. Its disappointing to spend the year waiting to see it again, just for blizz to give it to overwatch If I recall correctly, the 2013 Blizzcon was in Hall A? Or maybe it was Hall B? Anyway it was still hype af. That was the first SC2 tournament I watched live and it was amazing. Shame JD lost in the finals. I love the Arena though. But OW is their biggest game right now, and we have to adjust unfortunately. At least the final will be there. EDIT: I don't see us getting the arena for the finals, it still says Hall A ancthe schedule. Is that info legit? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 04 2017 21:07 DieuCure wrote: Because the only important thing for you is getting an empty arena until the hots, overwatch, wow and hs viewers come to fill it ? Well you will get it with two places instead of one ( because of the stream in the arena ). But I'm a little worried for the starcraft hall of honor Don't assume shit, I never even said I wanted the arena for the entire event..... I said it's an iconic part of sc2 as an esport. Which it is. Am I not allowed to be disappointed that one of my favorite events of the year is getting downgraded, in favour of an esport that isn't even good? | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
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engesser1
264 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
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TheTwatyEvildoer
United States34 Posts
C should be Dark and Elazer. HerO might be able to upset and sang a spot, but it's doubtful. Kal I see taking a couple games but not winning any sets. All in all, the group should be a nail bitter compared to A and D. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On October 14 2017 09:38 TheTwatyEvildoer wrote: Group B and C are going to be the closest imo. Neeb's Pvz is very soild and on top of that, its the only matchup he has to prep for. The Zergs are in a werid spot though. ZvZ is easy grounds for an upset. I don't feel strongly about Nerchios Zvz to get behind him, let alone the fact he would have to beat soO. Between soO and Rouge, I honestly believe it will just come down to who can out miname each other during their matches. C should be Dark and Elazer. HerO might be able to upset and sang a spot, but it's doubtful. Kal I see taking a couple games but not winning any sets. All in all, the group should be a nail bitter compared to A and D. It's a giant upset if Elazer beats herO. herO is in massive form at the moment, just won Masters Coliseum over Rogue, INnoVation, soO and Dear. Beat all of them convincingly too. Just off a Super Tournament finals as well. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On October 14 2017 10:56 Olli wrote: It's a giant upset if Elazer beats herO. herO is in massive form at the moment, just won Masters Coliseum over Rogue, INnoVation, soO and Dear. Beat all of them convincingly too. Just off a Super Tournament finals as well. Obviously with the consideration that it's an online tournament, but yeah, herO's PvZ has looked quite good recently--especially since he just beat Dark in the Super Tournament. | ||
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the_last_terran1
48 Posts
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