EPTNerf the main Terran AoE vs Light units...
When Blizzard wants everyone to attack all the time...why don't units expire after 30 secs? just make them wander of the map.
Community Feedback Update - November 17 - Page 14
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KT_Elwood
Germany1094 Posts
Nerf the main Terran AoE vs Light units... When Blizzard wants everyone to attack all the time...why don't units expire after 30 secs? just make them wander of the map. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On November 27 2016 07:38 washikie wrote: As a bio player it has not affected me much but it's kind of sad that in the patch aimed at making mech work they buffed units that essentially make mech non viable. I don't see how Terran mech is supposed to deal with swarm hosts with there current cost. As a mech player im not happy for mech and bio. Tankivacs were (for me) a nightmare, positioning didnt matter, just drop more tanks and "yolo". A stronger tank was really needed and im glad they buffed it as it is in the current state. What bothers me is that without tankivacs the number of things terran can do to put some pressure on a toss or zerg is very limited and therefor easier to hardcounter. Thats okay if the queen/spores wasnt so incredible strong. Leaving a zerg uncontested means he/she can drone much harder and therefor gain a bigger lead. Also denying creepspread was nice with tankivacs. The "amazing" mech did not came with the patch, tvt is doable but tvz and tvp still feels extreme turtle mode. The old cyclone had the option to be less turtle and boring. Now its HOTS again, but even worse. Since resources are more limited it encourage players to turtle even harder, because losing a gas heavy army is not something you want. The viper/hydra combo is a big problem, that was obvious during the test period. Yet they think its enough to delay the range upgrade for just 71 seconds and 100/100, thats it. Zerg got the most units, most versatile units and many many ways to scout/have vision. Too many roaches? ravagers, too many hydra's? (is that possible?) make lurkers, corruptors into broodlords, lings into banelings, queens great in all stages of the game. Viper can regen energy in a heartbeat etc etc There are almost no downsides to the race. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
All Blizzard has to do is the following: 1. Increase the Swarm Host cost. 2. Decrease Hydra range upgrade by 1. 3. Make Abduct not work on massive units so that Thors and Battlecruicers can be used in TvZ late game. 4. Remove range increase on Raven seeker missile upgrade and revert auto turret damage. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1094 Posts
PDD was good, Tanks killed light units, Hydra range was not OP. But whatabaout da turteling? Fun Fact: Minereals run low faster in Lotv, Turtle mech 3-4 Base won't work against Zerg that just explodes on the map + denies bases and forces Trades. Also on Maps with a "rather difficult" 3rd you can't turtle mech. And the Ravager also is kind of an "Siegebreaker" from the get go. Zerg players never understood that vs Turtle Mech, the WORST thing you can do is plant 23 swarmhosts and wait, instead of FORCING trades via Drop, or Nydus, or techswitches. Or do what Artosis said, Make a map where Hydras have 15 range and see if anyone spots the difference to 3.8. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On November 27 2016 18:40 KT_Elwood wrote: If Blizzard wanted Mech to happen, they could have looked at HotS. PDD was good, Tanks killed light units, Hydra range was not OP. But whatabaout da turteling? Fun Fact: Minereals run low faster in Lotv, Turtle mech 3-4 Base won't work against Zerg that just explodes on the map + denies bases and forces Trades. Also on Maps with a "rather difficult" 3rd you can't turtle mech. And the Ravager also is kind of an "Siegebreaker" from the get go. Zerg players never understood that vs Turtle Mech, the WORST thing you can do is plant 23 swarmhosts and wait, instead of FORCING trades via Drop, or Nydus, or techswitches. Or do what Artosis said, Make a map where Hydras have 15 range and see if anyone spots the difference to 3.8. You should spend more time learning the game rather than whining and pretending you know it... Ravager won't break any siege tank line unless you have 3 ravagers per tank. On HOTS : If zergs were making 28 SH it's because all the other trade resulted with all zerg units dead 0 unit lost for T. You don't trade fight with 13 range units with some 4-6 range units... And do drop when T has 50 touretts... But you probably better than SoO and co... I guess artosis was joking but you take it seriously and use it to whine... 15 range hydras means they would outrange tanks, not even comparable with these 7 range hydra... | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On November 27 2016 19:34 Tyrhanius wrote: You should spend more time learning the game rather than whining and pretending you know it... Ravager won't break any siege tank line unless you have 3 ravagers per tank. On HOTS : If zergs were making 28 SH it's because all the other trade resulted with all zerg units dead 0 unit lost for T. You don't trade fight with 13 range units with some 4-6 range units... And do drop when T has 50 touretts... But you probably better than SoO and co... I guess artosis was joking but you take it seriously and use it to whine... 15 range hydras means they would outrange tanks, not even comparable with these 7 range hydra... SH were also made vs bio later in Hots. The reasoning, that you really depend on them to win vs mech, is not true. They were good, but the reason was the preferred playstyle, being able to turtle as zerg, sit back and macro. No Zerg is going to tell you that SH was needed to play vs bio, still it was viable and ppl played it, just bcuz they liked it. So don't try to defend your race, instead try to be objective. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On November 27 2016 19:49 Phaenoman wrote: SH were also made vs bio later in Hots. The reasoning, that you really depend on them to win vs mech, is not true. They were good, but the reason was the preferred playstyle, being able to turtle as zerg, sit back and macro. No Zerg is going to tell you that SH was needed to play vs bio, still it was viable and ppl played it, just bcuz they liked it. So don't try to defend your race, instead try to be objective. Just rewatch mech after they kill the SH on HOTS : you could see best zerg of the world like Life being crushed by mech. But yeah a no name terran says " just do drop and nyndus : would have beaten mech ez" he probably know better how to play than kespa players, and gsl-champion... And you're the same : " stephano beats qxc with SH vs bio" : "proof SH was imba". If you were objective you would say : The sh was balanced but get nerfed for design reasons, the games were long and boring, but yeah the unit was the only things zerg had to fight mech camp style and protoss deathball. Now on lotv zerg they give zerg some new tools so we can expect to beat these composition with other units. | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On November 27 2016 21:34 Tyrhanius wrote: Just rewatch mech after they kill the SH on HOTS : you could see best zerg of the world like Life being crushed by mech. But yeah a no name terran says " just do drop and nyndus : would have beaten mech ez" he probably know better how to play than kespa players, and gsl-champion... And you're the same : " stephano beats qxc with SH vs bio" : "proof SH was imba". If you were objective you would say : The sh was balanced but get nerfed for design reasons, the games were long and boring, but yeah the unit was the only things zerg had to fight mech camp style and protoss deathball. Now on lotv zerg they give zerg some new tools so we can expect to beat these composition with other units. Where did I say that SH was imba? Seriously read my post b4 replying in a way, that only shows you don't wanna discuss, but complain no matter what I say. Then tell me sir, why did Zergs start to use SH vs bio? At least we agree that SH was bad design-wise. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1094 Posts
2h SH vs Mech games were an EU/NA thing, not so much KR. Bad Players went SH, complained that doing nothing for 40 Minutes did nothing. With the nerf on SH, SUDDENLY Zerg just Crushed turtle terran mech, because they did not sit back, doing nothing. Keep your "Learn to play" for flaming on ladder. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On November 18 2016 04:59 xTJx wrote: It's just a joke that terran got a cheese that doesn't put them behind in the game even when they deal no damage, and it's been 1 year. If koreans haven't figured it out by now, it's because there's no counter. And this adding to a matchup where zerg's only chance is getting hive, just totaly broken. For 6 years protoss players have been allowed to cannon rush to masters, and now terran is just as retarded, guess this is the apex of Blizzard's vision of balance. The fact that the best zerg in the world opens pool first says everything about this game. Are you talking about mass Reapers? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
I'm fine with tvz and tvt since they were in an awesome state in HotS but I really really dislike that tvp has reverted back to static collosus play after all the fun we had with the gateway heavy comps. doesn't have much to do with this patch though. the collossus nerf was the one thing I was looking forward the most when LotV was announced but for some reason they reverted it in a previous patch... | ||
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FoxDog
170 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QXTSOPfGLaU/maxresdefault.jpg) i still cant believe how terrible the new cyclone is, the purpose of the unit when it had 6 range was to delay protosses 3rd while forcing him to hold back on warp prism harass which is absolutely necessary for mech to function in the current game protoss just takes quick 3rd while denying you your natural with stalkers/adepts and by the time you take your 3rd he is saturated on 4 bases, now he can go disruptors which butcher every mech unit since they are too slow to catch the disruptors, or they can go mass carrier which got buffed in this patch, you can no longer kill the interceptors and have the protoss run out of money. Disruptors have never been adressed, carriers have never been adressed. In the current game zerg just techs up to roach hydra viper and the viper blinding clouds all the tanks so their damage does not actually improve, nothing changed in tvz mech. and for terran, the new cyclone is completely useless, you must understand that if the units purpose is to counter armored the siege tank is simply a better option, not only is the dps insanely low vs armored and guardian shielded units but it is straightup LOW damage, i do not see cyclone armies defeating zerg or protoss armies of any composition including mass roach and stalkers cost for cost and the anti air attack is pitiful, it should be automated if anything, but you must understand nobody is going to play the cyclones anti air dps when you can just make one marine and get the same, the cyclones purpose was to act as an earlygame aggression unit whilst the tank acted as a core army unit, because cyclones do not stack whatsoever. I never thought i would say this, but i am quitting the game and the only reason i will come back is if they fix carriers, vipers and cyclones, what is the testmap even FOR when we tell david kim this over and over, and he literally pretends there is no issue. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Garbage in the sense that you have to turtle for the map's ressources exhaustion. In the later stages of HOTS, we all saw how the viper made mech's best (and only) strategy was to camp, because moving out of turret cover was suicide. With parasitic bomb, 7 range hydras, insanely cheap swarm hosts, the ravager, this is even more true. Stronger tanks won't change how vipers can bleed out your army for free and prevent you from moving out, while SHs can strech your defenses so hard and for free, and that 7 range hydra concave with blinding cloud will kill you if you want to move out. To sum up : TvZ mech is back to the "free energy damage VS free units damage and free energy damage", with mass raven VS SHs and vipers. The following changes HAVE to be made to even out the game : TERRAN - CYLONE : redesign the cyclone with godd AA, movespeed, and micro potential, because it serves no purpose. Maybe revert to the old cyclone, and modify it to be 3 supply, 20 more health (140), no upgrade for lock damage but 150/75 and reactorable. - RAVEN : revert the auto turret raven buff - REAPER : make the reaper grenade deal no damage (from 10), and give it a tech lab upgrade to have utility in the later stages of the game (giving it spider mines, for instance?) - BC : add 1 range to the BC to match the hydra - THOR : increase the thor's movespeed to unsieged tank movespeed - GHOSTS : make ghost snipe recast the animation with each instance of damage, instead of cancelling it. Each time a ghost takes a hit while sniping will make it recast the spell. Make the spell cost energy only if the shot is fired. PROTOSS - COLOSSUS : rebuff the colossus to its HOTS strength so it can deal with 7 range hydras - DT : remove blink DT - TEMPEST : redesign the tempest for it to TRADE well with positionnal units, while being suceptible to AA threats. - SENTRY : make the hallucination 75 energy (from 100) to help protoss scout, and increase the ticklebeam to 10 flat damage - WARP PRISM : nerf the warp prism pickup range to 3 - (MSC : redesign photon overcharge, no one likes this mechanic) ZERG - QUEEN : queen range buff, the tankivac cut make this change overwhelming in early game defense (but keep the spore change). Make transfusion 75 energy for mass queens strategies to be less overwhelming. - SH : redesign the SH, this unit will either be OP or terrible because of its horrible design - VIPER : make the abduct unable to target GROUND massive, so that thors can zone them out and prevent vipers from bleeding out mech armies that are not behind 20 turrets. Redesign parastic bomb or cut it, 7 range hydras are now very good and reliable anti air - INFESTOR : remove burrowed fungal. Keep burrowed neural parasite. Burrowed fungal is ridiculous against terran (because they lack constant detection), but the neural is underused enough to be casted stealthily. Give fungal a "silence", in the way that fungaled units can't cast spells. - BL : re buff the BL back to 11 range. 10 range makes it quite bad against any number of thors with SCVs repairing around it | ||
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Hider
Denmark9408 Posts
In the later stages of HOTS, we all saw how the viper made mech's best (and only) strategy was to camp, because moving out of turret cover was suicide. I remember thinking that as early as HOTS beta. The only way to beat Vipers was through a critical mass of Vikings. In my opinion, Abduct should first be completely redesigned so its a strong singletarget ability but has counterplay. This means that you now can kill Vipers without relying on a critical mass of Vikings that needs to oneshot Vipers before they get pulled away. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On November 28 2016 19:58 Hider wrote: I remember thinking that as early as HOTS beta. The only way to beat Vipers was through a critical mass of Vikings. In my opinion, Abduct should first be completely redesigned so its a strong singletarget ability but has counterplay. This means that you now can kill Vipers instead of relying on a critical mass of Vikings that needs to oneshot Vipers before they get pulled away. And that was before they had parasitic bomb. Now, even with a critical mass of vikings, you must be very cautious not to die, because if your vikings clump, you are in for a very bad time. Viper is, since LotV, the complete package. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17149 Posts
On November 28 2016 19:47 JackONeill wrote: TERRAN - CYLONE : redesign the cyclone with godd AA, movespeed, and micro potential, because it serves no purpose. Maybe revert to the old cyclone, and modify it to be 3 supply, 20 more health (140), no upgrade for lock damage but 150/75 and reactorable. - THOR : increase the thor's movespeed to unsieged tank movespeed DK stated part of the "mech fantasy" is its immobility. Blizzard will have to reverse course on this philosophy in order to consider these changes you've outlined. On November 28 2016 18:34 FoxDog wrote: I never thought i would say this, but i am quitting the game and the only reason i will come back is if they fix carriers, vipers and cyclones, what is the testmap even FOR when we tell david kim this over and over, and he literally pretends there is no issue. DK stated repeatedly that not enough games were being played on the test map leading up to the release of patch 3.8. It should be no surprise to any one that there are big balance issues right now. its not that he is "not listening" its that he does not have enough data to make a conclusion. small sample size. now that the game is in wide distribution on the main ladder there will be a large enough data set. now that you are quitting i guess we won't see your multiple posts in every single thread about mech viability. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On November 28 2016 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote: DK stated part of the "mech fantasy" is its immobility. Blizzard will have to reverse course on this philosophy in order to consider these changes you've outlined. It's not because the core mech army functions well while being immobile that all the units have to. Hellions, banshees, old cyclones are better at taking fights where they can kite and be mobile. DK stated that the core AA from mech comps should be the thor. And with the tempest range nerf, why not, they're already doing very well against BLs and BCs. But that doesn't mean that the cyclone can't fit early and mid game ground AA requirement. And when i say requirement, i mean absolute necessity. For mech to work and for it not to be a turtlefest, there is a sore need for early, reliable ground AA in mech comp. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9408 Posts
On November 28 2016 20:49 petro1987 wrote: And that was before they had parasitic bomb. Now, even with a critical mass of vikings, you must be very cautious not to die, because if your vikings clump, you are in for a very bad time. Viper is, since LotV, the complete package. Yeh, and something I would like to see a lot is a redesign of anti-air for mech: 1. Make Thor anti-massive (vs air) 2. Make Cyclone anti-armored (vs air) 3. Make Viking/Liberator support vs light units (just merge them into one). That would make mech in Sc2 an experience that more similarly matches that of BW mech and its for a variety of reasons alot more sound. In this specific instance it would give the Cyclone a role to beat Vipers, however I have a ton more planned out in terms of how units (for all races) could have unique roles in various situations while creating a "healthy" gameplay dynamic. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On November 28 2016 22:42 Hider wrote: Yeh, and something I would like to see a lot is a redesign of anti-air for mech: 1. Make Thor anti-massive. 2. Make Cyclone anti-armored. 3. Make Viking support vs light units. That would make mech in Sc2 an experience that more similarly matches that of BW mech and its for a variety of reasons alot more sound. In this specific instance it would give the Cyclone a role to beat Vipers, however I have a ton more planned out in terms of how units (for all races) could have unique roles in various situations while creating a "healthy" gameplay dynamic. Tbh, I lean more on the simple solution side. I would just replace thor with goliath (and redesign cyclone to serve a different purpose). I like this approach more, because I don't really like a RTS game to be a pure composition battle. I like the execution part of the strategy to be more important than the composition side. That's why I'm also not very fond of hard counters. Btw, the reasoning of not putting the goliath because it's a "mech marine" doesn't even make any sense to me. The unit has enough differences to not be considered a mech marine. It cannot be healed, has lower dps per cost, higher hp, etc. Is the hydralisk a zerg marine then? or is the stalker a protoss marine? It seems when they run out of reasonable arguments, they tend to use platitudes to make their points. It's just silly. | ||
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