BlizzCon is coming up, so we want to push the Ultralisk and Cyclone changes to go into effect after the event. BlizzCon gives us the chance to watch the top players compete at the highest levels, which is another opportunity to make balance changes to fine tune the game. With the offseason coming up a few weeks after BlizzCon, we have a great opportunity to get more wide-spread testing, so we plan to apply the balance patch to the ladder at that point. Note that this doesn’t mean all of these changes are final—we will continue to work with all of you to iterate and improve on these changes to get them in a good state for season 1 next year.
Maps
After the BlizzCon finals, we’d like to change out the map pool during the offseason and replace them with familiar existing maps. That way we can focus on the final numbers tuning of the major patch changes during the last ladder season of this year. We’d also like to make sure that the map pool consists of a diverse set of maps so we can be confident we covered all our bases.
The map design team has come up with a rough, initial set of maps for your consideration, so let’s start talking about which of these maps need to be changed out before we finalize the map pool.
Daybreak Dusk Towers Echo Habitation Station Ulrena Newkirk Precinct Whirlwind
Keep in mind that we need to keep a diverse map pool, so if you remove a map of a certain type, please only suggest another map of the same type as its replacement. For example, if you want to remove Dusk Towers, please suggest another macro map
lol dreampool again. I'm fine with that actually, their choices look solid, and anyway with the mapmaking community dying out as well better get prepared to recycle maps forever from now on.
If I were to give my opinion I'd say get Ulrena out but they'll probably want a "strange" map and I dislike them because they're strange, so... This will just be my automatic veto, be it Ulrena, Dasan or Scrap Station.
I mean at least don't bring back maps that were in the pool for the majority of the year already. Take out Dusk Towers, Echo is a really similar map anyway, take another decent macro map instead. And for a rush map like Ulrena, I guess there aren't that many good options.
On October 29 2016 04:20 Elentos wrote: I mean at least don't bring back maps that were in the pool for the majority of the year already. Take out Dusk Towers, Echo is a really similar map anyway, take another decent macro map instead. And for a rush map like Ulrena, I guess there aren't that many good options.
I'd rather have them get back Lerilak Crest, I guess that's a rush map ?
'We really want to fine tune the numbers for balance changes so to not have to take maps in mind we will randomly add WoL and HotS maps that were not made for LotV'
Daybreak - yes Dusk Towers - oh god please no Echo - sure why not Habitation Station - yes Ulrena - fuck you blizz Newkirk Precinct - meh, could be worse Whirlwind - yes
Why just not give us new maps?? Dusk Towers ? Ulreana? Seriously? Like we didn't play on them this year enough! I guess i won't be playing sc2 for 2-3 months. Wonder why people losing interest in the game...
Daybreak was one my favorite maps but not sure how good it'll be in lotv, i mean just look at how balanced KSS is...
Why not orbital shipyard instead of dusk towers? I guess they're both flawed in a different way... As for ulrena i at least wish they make the rush distance longer if they're gonna put it back in the pool.
Please Blizzard, you don't need top 10 players to help to decide if units have to be tweaked or not. You want majority to be happy, not a handful pros, right ?
I feel there are several community/possibly even TLMC maps that didn't quite make the ladder cut that should be considered over old outdated maps. There are several very committed mapmakers as well as many amateur ones with next to no reason to even bother with the idea if they are not going to be utilized during this "off season" sort of period after WCS.
On October 29 2016 05:08 NinjaToss wrote: Dusk Towers is amazing, please bring it back, that's my most favourite map to play on. Please no Ulrena tho
Protoss player excited for Dusk Towers??
No way, color me shocked.
Screw that map, not sure about the pro level but at the casual level playing vs. Protoss on Dusk is a nightmare split map scenario, will be vetoing along with Shitrena.
Daybreak - sure Dusk Towers - HELL NO, I'm sick of it...I'd use Vaani Research Station instead Echo - yes please Habitation Station - HELL YES Ulrena - I like this wonky map Newkirk Precinct - aka "Old Gettysburg" nah Whirlwind - yes
Um plz don't re add ulerena. That map is hellish because of the insane rush dostances. I don't rember the days of opening 1 base to prepare for the inevitable 1 base ravager or pylon rush at my ramp. The map just forces either an early Allin or insane turtling it's not fun. It will be even worse with the removal of tankivacs to hold off the kind of rushes that work on a map like this.
Also although I personally loved whirlwind in hots and wol, I don't think with the current late game ballance that introducing maps of that size is a good idea. It's hard enough to pressure on maps like frost I could see whirlwind being on evrey terran's ban list just to avoid the ultra train.
You don't need two turtle-style maps in the map pool. Echo more than covers that, and maps like Dusk Towers and Vaani will just make people hate life on ladder.
Not going to lie, I"d love to see how Hab Stat is going to play out in LoTV. In HoTS it was pretty easy to hold the gold base due to having the 2x wide ramp but now in LoTV with so many more harass options I"m guessing people might shy away from it. Although, it isn't a very base dense map so not sure how it'll play out in LoTV.
Either way, would love to see new maps but I can't deny and say I"m not excited to see my golden child being played on again.
If u want a macro map, dont need to push again recent maps, we can add Entombed Valley, or even Antiga Shipyard. Another standard macro (2 player map) change would be Deadwing, Neo Planet S, or Heavy Rain, instead of Newkirk (not balanced at all in lotv i think but just my opinion). I know u guys of blizzard want every season 1 crazy map, so you say ulrena (dasan atm), I say xel'naga caverns. I love the idea of getting new maps, but seriously, read opinions like this, maybe u remember some map u forgot, like Yeonsu, and make starcraft good again! Keep the work blizz, its really improving (and fix the mmr problem, everyone cant be master).
On October 29 2016 04:17 [PkF] Wire wrote: lol dreampool again. I'm fine with that actually, their choices look solid, and anyway with the mapmaking community dying out as well better get prepared to recycle maps forever from now on.
dying out, but not for lack off effort from mapmakers.
On October 29 2016 04:26 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: 'We really want to fine tune the numbers for balance changes so to not have to take maps in mind we will randomly add WoL and HotS maps that were not made for LotV'
solid logic, critics rate it a perfect 10/10
yeah, this boggles my mind as well.
On October 29 2016 05:06 WinterStarcraft wrote: I feel there are several community/possibly even TLMC maps that didn't quite make the ladder cut that should be considered over old outdated maps. There are several very committed mapmakers as well as many amateur ones with next to no reason to even bother with the idea if they are not going to be utilized during this "off season" sort of period after WCS.
I agree recycling maps that weren't even conceived for lotv specificities instead of giving a chance to those who missed their window (and some of those maps were lotv tailored) is stupid.
wtf why dafaq ppl saying community dying , well that s thing i cant stand about sc2 all those trash ppl saying dead game everything is lost etc ... just pathetic
We don't get to see 10 base maps anymore because of the LotV economy change. Considering this is a testing period, it would be interesting if Blizzard tried adding one of the standard 10 base maps from the old map pools to see how games play out.
If we went in this direction, either Bel'Shir Vestige and Ohana would be great candidates. Considering the lack of bases and openness of these two maps it could make for some fast paced and interesting mid game scenarios. The lack of watchtowers on Ohana is a feature that we works well in a lot modern maps so it would be interesting to see how that works with only 10 bases. I didn't notice any clearly imbalanced scenarios that could arise for the zerg matchups. If terran and protoss players could offer some insight for the other matchups, I'd appreciate it.
Outside of that, other potentially interesting maps include: + Show Spoiler +
Cloud Kingdom - Have the watch towers deactivate after first 5 minutes. My friends and I considered this the most balanced map in the pool back in the day and had plently of great games on it. I remember stalker colossus in zvp being very strong here so it could be interesting to see if LotV colossus are able still able to serve a purpose on this map.
Metropolis - Forced cross spawn and either remove or have the watch towers deactivate after first 5 minutes. I think New Gettysburg has shown us that large island maps can produce interesting games, but because this map lacks the amount of attack paths we see on Precinct, it would make sense to remove the watch towers as they provide to much vision.
Derelict Watcher - No changes are necessary. Tankivacs at the 3 and 9 o'clock bases would be strong in zvt, but if it becomes an issue players can take the other 3rd.
Neo Planet S - While I think this map was one of the hardest zvt maps if the opponent went bio mine, it produced a lot of really interesting games in all the zerg match ups. There was also an especially cool tvt polt played on this map, but sadly I don't remember the tournament or opponent.
I've been masters as zerg since the league came out and have memories of just about every map that has been in the ladder pool. So for what its worth, I think I have a solid idea of what constitutes a good/bad map for zergs. I can't speak for the other races, but these are maps that none of my terran or protoss buddies have had to many complaints about.
[edit] mixed up New Gettysburg with Newkirk Precinct
while i love the concept of dreampool 2.0 for the wcs off-season, i disagree with adding maps to the pool that have already been played in lotv such as dusk towers and ulrena.
I'm not ready to go play Dusk Towers again already and to a less degree Ulrena. Dusk Towers -> Bel'shir Vestige For Ulrena I don't really know what they want to achieve with that map other than it's weird, but I feel like Habitation Station already plays out a bit like Ulrena. If you want weird, you can go with Foxtrot Labs, other than that I wouldn't mind seeing Yeonsu or something. It's a pretty good map to test Swarm Hosts and Mech, while being smaller as opposed to something like Heavy Rain.
On October 29 2016 05:06 WinterStarcraft wrote: I feel there are several community/possibly even TLMC maps that didn't quite make the ladder cut that should be considered over old outdated maps. There are several very committed mapmakers as well as many amateur ones with next to no reason to even bother with the idea if they are not going to be utilized during this "off season" sort of period after WCS.
DK said on reddit that he wants to use old maps so we can focus on the balance-changes and not on the maps. the community maps look solid but they haven't seen high-level play yet which could expose potential imbalance. that would somewhat screw the quality of balance-testing.
On October 29 2016 05:06 WinterStarcraft wrote: I feel there are several community/possibly even TLMC maps that didn't quite make the ladder cut that should be considered over old outdated maps. There are several very committed mapmakers as well as many amateur ones with next to no reason to even bother with the idea if they are not going to be utilized during this "off season" sort of period after WCS.
DK said on reddit that he wants to use old maps so we can focus on the balance-changes and not on the maps. the community maps look solid but they haven't seen high-level play yet which could expose potential imbalance. that would somewhat screw the quality of balance-testing.
Most of these old maps aren't balanced for LotV either though.
On October 29 2016 05:06 WinterStarcraft wrote: I feel there are several community/possibly even TLMC maps that didn't quite make the ladder cut that should be considered over old outdated maps. There are several very committed mapmakers as well as many amateur ones with next to no reason to even bother with the idea if they are not going to be utilized during this "off season" sort of period after WCS.
DK said on reddit that he wants to use old maps so we can focus on the balance-changes and not on the maps. the community maps look solid but they haven't seen high-level play yet which could expose potential imbalance. that would somewhat screw the quality of balance-testing.
Most of these old maps aren't balanced for LotV either though.
I don't think that makes much of a difference. king sejong and frost work well too.
Foxtrot Labs! some epic games that map was producing in hots. Swap it for daybreak. Btw why is there only one 4 player map? And why is it becoming a new standard? We used to have 3 4-player maps...
directing discussion^^ you can never know who where the feedback may have been taken from to make a decision (maybe nowhere in particular or just select that which went as originally intended) (meanwhile you're not talking about something else) (who is serious about helping a selection for map pool by community wouldn't set up a poll?)
On October 29 2016 05:06 WinterStarcraft wrote: I feel there are several community/possibly even TLMC maps that didn't quite make the ladder cut that should be considered over old outdated maps. There are several very committed mapmakers as well as many amateur ones with next to no reason to even bother with the idea if they are not going to be utilized during this "off season" sort of period after WCS.
DK said on reddit that he wants to use old maps so we can focus on the balance-changes and not on the maps. the community maps look solid but they haven't seen high-level play yet which could expose potential imbalance. that would somewhat screw the quality of balance-testing.
Most of these old maps aren't balanced for LotV either though.
I don't think that makes much of a difference. king sejong and frost work well too.
They had to hotfix the mineral lines of King Sejong Station due to unreachable liberator harass though. And in general KSS and Frost aren't as balanced in LotV as in HotS.
People hated the Dreampool when they had the choice of what maps to choose, what makes Blizzard think they'll like it when they don't even get to choose which horror they have to go through?
Not the biggest fan of the map pool, big fan of the upcoming changes though. Also the recent changes with new skins etc, have been a good idea I believe.
I don't know why they want to go through with the cyclone without buffing his AA or taking into account that it recently was used with lots of sucess by KR terrans. Compared to much more important and assured changes such as the tank buff/tankivac cut or the liberator AA nerf, i don't see why they'd proceed this way
I'm pretty sure they want to deploy the cyclone and ultralisk changes to the test map, and everything to the ladder during the off-season. Just pushing the former doesn't make any sense.
I think people are seeing the maps as in "balanced for current patch" and as in "good for testing incoming patch"
Whirlwind for example is probably one of the maps with the easiest to secure 4 bases and is pretty good mech map, Daybreak and Newkirk are also really good mech maps, meanwhile I don't think theres any LotV map thats as good as these for mech (mostly because mech is so dead nobody plays it)
Same thing for Habitation and Ulrena, for example if they can make cyclone rushes balanced on Ulrena they can balance it on any map.
I'm sure more than one of the guys posting here will like to read some of the ideas an experienced Mapmaker has regarding the OffSeason Map Pool with old maps.
On October 31 2016 00:46 Lexender wrote: I think people are seeing the maps as in "balanced for current patch" and as in "good for testing incoming patch"
Whirlwind for example is probably one of the maps with the easiest to secure 4 bases and is pretty good mech map, Daybreak and Newkirk are also really good mech maps, meanwhile I don't think theres any LotV map thats as good as these for mech (mostly because mech is so dead nobody plays it)
Same thing for Habitation and Ulrena, for example if they can make cyclone rushes balanced on Ulrena they can balance it on any map.
It's a bit hard to explain, but maps are tailored to design and the meta, and are only really restricted by design asymmetries, anything else can easily be accounted of and has little to no impacts on maps.
I have no doubt that no matter what changes in design or balance come, maps will have 0 problem adepting, design shouldn't need to be looking at these particular maps. there is very little to learn from that can't be considered for in a vacuum, what is not so easy to determine in a vacuum, are the very extreme maps.
My suggestion if you want to test balance and design in relation to maps, is to have extreme maps, if not, you might as well not bother.
On October 29 2016 04:15 Kantuva wrote: Daybreak Dusk Towers Echo Habitation Station Ulrena Newkirk Precinct Whirlwind
For the sake of people that are still playing this game just forget about :
- frigging dusk tower : we have played 10000 games on this map, 9000 of which were not particulary interesting, to say the least. This map was a cool beginner's map when LotV's meta was being figured out, now we have grown up, we don't need this anymore.
For a big macro map, I think we should just keep KSS cause it's just better than dusk tower in every regard.
- echo : I don't see what in this map can make someone not using a veto, it's ugly, boring and certainly not balanced for LotV units, liberators in particular have free access to mineral lines, you don't even have vision on them on the 3/9 o'clock base cause of high grounds behind the minerals.
If there really nostalgia for HotS maps, take Vaani research station instead, which is better designed and is more interesting to play in mid and late game. Or any other map really. Even Catallena. Or just 6 maps. But please no Echo.
- whirlwind : I loved this map, but it's not a map for LotV. big 4 player maps is not needed imho, but if we really want one Iron fortress would do a better job I think...
For the rest, I want to say why not? not sure we'd gain in map pool quality, except for newkirk which i will gladly play again.
For everyone who hates Ulrena - stop calling it shitrena or lulrena or w/e. It's URINA obviously. The shittiest map ever made.
On a serious note though, i lost any track of sanity in the changes and announcements they make, so yeah... Whatever. God knows what brilliant idea pops out in their minds tomorrow. They only consistency i see is: - never adressing the real issues under the pressure of the community like reworking SH after a whole year of cancer pvz, and now again when everybody almost forgot about the ultra being "OP" they suddenly propose the armor "nerf", which is about to go live without any testing LOL (don't think it's really worth discussing though, cause it's has literally nothing to do with what this game really needs) - insane stubbornness and tunnel vision with emphasis on adding micro abilities neglecting any rational boundaries, which results in constant units roles and abilities overlapping (dt's blink lol) that's beyond any comprehension - no clear plan on how the game should look like (aside from units having tons of micro abilities), e.g. tempest going from aoe anti muta to being a 15 range slow moving cancer and now to zoning (???) unit (what next?), or stating that lurker and reaver has no place in the game then eventually introducing lurker and a reaver (which is not callled a reaver to prove blizzard was right about reaver having no place in the game), or removing a warhound then reintroducing warhound in the form of cyclone or introducing tankivacs then removing tanivacs or w/e. - emphasis on everlasting balance rework instead of fixing the core design issues. I feel like they are almost obsessed with the idea balance being the scapegoat for all that's happening with the game while in fact it's irrelevant.
On October 31 2016 20:48 insitelol wrote: For everyone who hates Ulrena - stop calling it shitrena or lulrena or w/e. It's URINA obviously. The shittiest map ever made.
It's actually a good map, but people don't like to adapt and to micro, so they vote for maps that don't punish early game mistakes.
They're more comfortable with dusk towers cause they can survive even if they butchered their build.
Don't know where to whine about it but we don't have race specific map statistics atm. The winrates shown in game are all races combined so it doesn't mean anything at all.
On October 31 2016 20:48 insitelol wrote: For everyone who hates Ulrena - stop calling it shitrena or lulrena or w/e. It's URINA obviously. The shittiest map ever made.
It's actually a good map, but people don't like to adapt and to micro, so they vote for maps that don't punish early game mistakes.
They're more comfortable with dusk towers cause they can survive even if they butchered their build.
TBH no, it's actually quite a bad map, ulrena is on a level of "barely playable" in terms of proportions, space usage and base placement, and it fails to deliver in any area that doesn't include the short attack path.
Some how sometime in the future. Steps of war could make a come back to the ladder map pools. and scrap station and sakuras plateau and metalopolis, shattered temple with close spawn availble
On November 01 2016 10:20 Nerchio wrote: This is sad :p
Go out there and bitch for us. Blizzard doesn't listen to plebs. Remind them BW existed for 17 years now because of amazing community maps and not their own genius island map ideas.
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
On November 01 2016 10:20 Nerchio wrote: This is sad :p
Go out there and bitch for us. Blizzard doesn't listen to plebs. Remind them BW existed for 17 years now because of amazing community maps and not their own genius island map ideas.
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
That's only six maps. What's the seventh?
Probably still Daybreak.
To be fair, if there was one map you wanted to see how bad splitting the map was with the new tanksm, it's day break.
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
That's only six maps. What's the seventh?
Probably still Daybreak.
To be fair, if there was one map you wanted to see how bad splitting the map was with the new tanksm, it's day break.
Dude I dunno, it's gonna be pretty brutal on Echo and Vaani.
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
That's only six maps. What's the seventh?
Probably still Daybreak.
To be fair, if there was one map you wanted to see how bad splitting the map was with the new tanksm, it's day break.
Dude I dunno, it's gonna be pretty brutal on Echo and Vaani.
I just assumed everyone was proxy hatching vaani, just like the old days.
New map pool: Echo Habitation Station Overgrowth Newkirk Precinct TE Whirlwind Vaani Research station
Other things to note: -They're not getting as much testing as they want -They'll use the off-season to continue polishing the changes -The off-season will be shorter than a regular season -They will try to use more community maps during the first ladder season of 2017
That's only six maps. What's the seventh?
Probably still Daybreak.
To be fair, if there was one map you wanted to see how bad splitting the map was with the new tanksm, it's day break.
Dude I dunno, it's gonna be pretty brutal on Echo and Vaani.
I just assumed everyone was proxy hatching vaani, just like the old days.
Vaani is pretty open in the middle so you could get some decent hydra concaves.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
