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Forum Index > SC2 General
171 CommentsPost a Reply
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Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
September 15 2016 22:04 GMT
#161
On September 16 2016 06:51 Edowyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2016 02:34 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Not sure what they can really change too much, Protoss is already imbalanced vs. Zerg and balanced vs. Terran so have to probably go easy with laying on big buffs for Protoss. Adepts and Immortals are OP, Hydralisks are UP, that's why Hydralisks are getting buffed and Adepts and Immortals aren't lol


Well, I'm not really concerned about balance. I want improvements to the race that seem fun and interesting. Changes to the design of both the adept and the immortal could excite me -- a really late blink and a poorly-thought-out tempest change (among others) simply don't.

Show nested quote +
Lexender wrote:
The thing is no protoss players know what the hell they wan't


Well, lots of Protoss players know what they want ... it's just that we're different people so we all want different kinds of things.

Arguably, there's a lot of similarity between what Protoss players want and what others want for / from Protoss:

- Weaker / removed PO
- Weaker / removed early-game attacks (shades, pulsar beam, the silly tempest ability they added)
- Power reduced in late-game compositions (MS, Tempests, Storm death-ball)

in exchange for:

- Stronger defensive early-game units
- More flexible mid-game gateway units (movers-and-shooters)
- Better distinction between tech paths

Protoss has just as many weird design choices (if not more) as any other race. Why was nothing terribly exciting done here? Just because they're doing well balance-wise hardly means that they don't need design work.

Among other things, all of these abilities contribute to Protoss' late-game power:

- revelation impossible to do anything about
- storm has immense range and damage as well as being "stockpile-able" through the energy mechanic so that very little supply is devoted to extremely powerful zone control
- cannons are the best late-game defensive (zoning) structures because they shoot both up and down
- purification nova is a very-long ranged zoning tool that has the potential to end the game with every shot, as well as making certain units from the opponent completely defunct
- Protoss units generally have the highest health, so in a late-game battle with multiple abilities, tons of micro, and more than even top pros can handle ... Protoss armies simply tend to live the longest

Protoss, as a race, has the weirdest power curve you can imagine. Early game attacks are immensely strong (and what everyone's going for at or near the top), but Protoss without a threat of early pressure is so far behind in the mid-game. Meanwhile, their late game is oppressively strong if the map isn't so heavily spread out that their death-ball can't answer threats everywhere at once (with tempests' range, PO, and tanky adept / difficult to kill DT warp-ins -- the map has to be spread out widely indeed).

Protoss is arguably the most ridiculously designed race of them all. It depends upon early-game attacks (or the immense threat thereof) to influences the rest of the game while having a ridiculously poor mid-game and a too-strong deathball in the late game ...

And looking at representation data on ladders (including how the race is split up among leagues) Protoss is not only currently the least-fun race (least played by far and decreasing overall share over time), but it's also the hardest race to play in the lower range (being short in representation from Masters all the way to the bottom of the ladder).

So, even if they don't want to do the things that I've pointed out, Blizzard should really try to excite Protoss players ... or the game is headed for more of the same frustrations we've all pointed out recently and that have labelled Protoss as the "gimmicky", "all-in", and "a-move" race since the beginning of WoL.

Protoss could absolutely have work done to make it a better race. For the sake of the game, I hope the work gets done.


This is the kind of post that needs to be made and shared, the feedback that is required, wich only helps prove my point.

If theres something you need/want to be changed, you need the feedback to be read and discussed

Seriously you make really good points, and probably a lot of protoss players agree with you, but you can't expect to get something if you don't ask of it first, you should put more effort into making the feedback know, god knows how many post, discussion and constant feedback it took until Blizz decided to make this patch to help mech.
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
September 15 2016 22:08 GMT
#162
Warpprism should have 160hp this way a widow mine can one shot it.
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
petro1987
Profile Joined May 2009
Brazil374 Posts
September 15 2016 22:14 GMT
#163
On September 16 2016 06:43 Vanadiel wrote:
Every games of the final between Life and MVP was mech as far as I remember. There are tons of other mech games in TvZ in WoL, I don't think you followed the scene very well at the time. While not the majority of games, there were a lot of mech games, depending on the maps, usually starting by the 2 factory blue flame hellions opening.


MVP lost the finals btw. Like I said, maybe the word viable has a broad meaning or I am misusing it. Mech was definitely a subpar style, used only in a very specific context. I watched a lot of games in 2010/2011 (not so many in 2012 tho) and I definitely don't remember seeing a lot of mech games.
VHbb
Profile Joined October 2014
689 Posts
September 15 2016 22:19 GMT
#164
On September 16 2016 07:08 Loccstana wrote:
Warpprism should have 160hp this way a widow mine can one shot it.


Agreed. You should also slightly lower marines HP so that adepts can one shot them.
My life for Aiur !
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
September 15 2016 22:32 GMT
#165
On September 16 2016 07:14 petro1987 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2016 06:43 Vanadiel wrote:
Every games of the final between Life and MVP was mech as far as I remember. There are tons of other mech games in TvZ in WoL, I don't think you followed the scene very well at the time. While not the majority of games, there were a lot of mech games, depending on the maps, usually starting by the 2 factory blue flame hellions opening.


MVP lost the finals btw. Like I said, maybe the word viable has a broad meaning or I am misusing it. Mech was definitely a subpar style, used only in a very specific context. I watched a lot of games in 2010/2011 (not so many in 2012 tho) and I definitely don't remember seeing a lot of mech games.

There weren't as many mech games as bio+tank games in WoL, but they were still there and they were significantly more common than bio strategies were in BW TvP. Even though mech in WoL tended to be very specific to certain players or maps and was harder to play, it still made a bigger presence in the scene than you're giving it credit for.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Edowyth
Profile Joined October 2010
United States183 Posts
September 16 2016 01:01 GMT
#166
On September 16 2016 07:04 Lexender wrote:
Seriously you make really good points, and probably a lot of protoss players agree with you, but you can't expect to get something if you don't ask of it first, you should put more effort into making the feedback know, god knows how many post, discussion and constant feedback it took until Blizz decided to make this patch to help mech.


Well, I've said it all multiple times in various forums (battle.net forums, here, and even on reddit). Multiple people have been saying these things since WoL, though it's crystallized a lot more during the LotV beta and simply been repeated a lot since then.
"Q. How do I check a valid [e-]mail address? A. You can't, at least, not in real time. Bummer, eh?" /r/programming
Of course, you could just send them a validation email.
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-16 01:32:16
September 16 2016 01:30 GMT
#167
On September 16 2016 10:01 Edowyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2016 07:04 Lexender wrote:
Seriously you make really good points, and probably a lot of protoss players agree with you, but you can't expect to get something if you don't ask of it first, you should put more effort into making the feedback know, god knows how many post, discussion and constant feedback it took until Blizz decided to make this patch to help mech.


Well, I've said it all multiple times in various forums (battle.net forums, here, and even on reddit). Multiple people have been saying these things since WoL, though it's crystallized a lot more during the LotV beta and simply been repeated a lot since then.


That's because it's gotten worse with LOTV. If you take the exemple of DTs, from WOL to LOTV : if you rush 2 bases drop DTs with a hidden dark shrine on the map in TvP, it's extremely hard to scout.But it's a strategy that can end the game immediatly if the opponent has no appropriate detection :
- in WOL, if the terran has detection and you deal little damage, you were in a very bad spot. Terran would have a stim timing with medivacs that would be incredibly hard to hold
- in HOTS, in the same situation, nexus PO would help the protoss stay alive. However, terran could still deny a third for some time until the protoss had a strong army
- in LOTV, protoss takes a third while the attack is going on, and has a ranged prism to save his DTs. There is no good reason for protoss to loose more than 2 DTs even if things are going terribly. Meanwhile, pylon PO gives protoss the ability to stay alive on 3 bases against a 2 bases terran, even if DT drop on 2 bases can litteraly end the game

Of course one would have to consider "how much damage protoss can deal early game to survive the liberator count in mid game", so just looking at this strat isn't a global proof, but it shows how things got worse from WOL desing-wise. Things that have the potential to end the game in a binary fashion should not be something you can easily transition out.
That's an incredibily idiotic design choice that should not be present in a strategy game.
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24202 Posts
September 17 2016 21:38 GMT
#168
Are blink DTs actually useful ?
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24202 Posts
September 17 2016 21:42 GMT
#169
Really hard to find players on the balance test mod with matchmaking... queues are excruciatingly long.
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-18 02:22:08
September 17 2016 22:27 GMT
#170
On September 18 2016 06:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Really hard to find players on the balance test mod with matchmaking... queues are excruciatingly long.


you want to add me on b.net? I'll pm you
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
September 18 2016 00:32 GMT
#171
On September 18 2016 06:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Really hard to find players on the balance test mod with matchmaking... queues are excruciatingly long.

Change into NA region.But you will queue with almost only terran.
SHODAN
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1106 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-18 03:55:16
September 18 2016 00:35 GMT
#172
I have played ~100 games on the balance test mod. I want to touch upon a particular build which is shaking up the TvP meta big time. I'm a master league terran (~5000 MMR). after using this build for ~20 matches, I have a 100% winrate against protoss players who go for a typical fast expand.

1-base double factory cyclone

gas
barracks (proxy)
gas
orbital
reaper
factory
factory
double cyclone production hereafter
pull 4-5 SCVs on auto-repair

I float the barracks to the protoss base after my reaper spawns. this gives me vision so my cyclones don't take free damage going up the ramp. I rally the cyclones straight to the protoss natural and bring some SCVs for repair.

cyclones can outlast the damage an overcharged pylon, with the help of repairing SCVs. stalkers, immortals and gateway units just die. I'm convinced that this build can't be defended with a typical gatewayexpand/tech build. so what should protoss players do? after some testing, I found that one possible answer is void rays. if the protoss player probe scouts and sees 1-base double fact, then throws down a stargate, this rush can be defended. I'm not sure about expand before stargate, but stargate before expand definitely works. the other option is 2 extra gates after expand (3 gate before tech). however, if terran catches wind of this (which is likely, thanks to the floating raxx), a widow mine or banshee follow up might be difficult to deal with.

the cyclone AA nerf made the unit sufficiently weaker vs air units. naturally, double factory leads into mech. stargate tech is a very strong route vs mech. later in the game, once both players have expanded and tank/turret pushes are a threat, it seems that a composition of tempests, disruptors and zealots is a solid choice. I hope more toss players will try void rays on the ladder if they run into this build. I'm not sure if cyclones are imba (they aren't), but they are definitely strong vP and prevent toss from being too greedy in the early game.

tldr: void rays are a solid counter to cyclone rushes.

replays:
typical fast nexus/mothership core into robo. this would have held INoVation's cyclone rush in LotV 1.0, but fails to hold it in the new patch:
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/21725/

stargate/void ray before expand. toss holds, though for some reason he made 2 extra gates before expanding, which is definitely not necessary. chrono on the stargate and zealots from 1 gate should be enough. both of us have significantly delayed expands, though my opponent could have taken his much faster without the extra gates:
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/21726/
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