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An Examination of the History of the Map Pool - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
104 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
469 Posts
April 05 2016 15:33 GMT
#21
Good article, minor detail: stephano didn't invent 3 base vs protoss (3 base vs protoss has existed since BW and it was very rampant all throughout the early stages of WoL - as soon as forge expand became popular) nor did he invent bl/infestor. He did perfect the latter, though.
wjat
Profile Joined August 2015
385 Posts
April 05 2016 15:34 GMT
#22
Awesome article. Congratz!!!
Superbanana
Profile Joined May 2014
2369 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 15:44:08
April 05 2016 15:36 GMT
#23
"What is strategic diversity and interesting gameplay?"

Considering the method used by Blizzard, its a safe assumption they meant "different gameplay in different maps" by strategic diversity. If its interesting or not its far too subjective.

However, i think its the wrong way to deal with gameplay diversity, the real problem is maps that force the same playstyle in the same matchup. That means lack of gameplay diversity in the same map. Being forced into the same playstyle is not any better if you are still forced into 7 different ones, one per map. Even worse if you are forced to cheese or all in.

The LotV maps so far had a lack of gameplay diversity. What they did promote is different playstyles in different maps, which is not necessarily good and so far has been poorly executed imo.

minor edit
In PvZ the zerg can make the situation spire out of control but protoss can adept to the situation.
wjat
Profile Joined August 2015
385 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 15:38:45
April 05 2016 15:36 GMT
#24
On April 06 2016 00:33 Comedy wrote:
Good article, minor detail: stephano didn't invent 3 base vs protoss (3 base vs protoss has existed since BW and it was very rampant all throughout the early stages of WoL - as soon as forge expand became popular) nor did he invent bl/infestor. He did perfect the latter, though.


Stephano invented the 3base before pool vs protoss in sc2. (BW is not sc2) Moreover he was the first to compo bl/infestor when he was not even the best french player. (see his awesome come back vs ToD on Xel naga caverns)

Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16098 Posts
April 05 2016 15:37 GMT
#25
On April 06 2016 00:29 Topher_Doll wrote:
An interesting look but you make a lot of assertions that kind of go against what the community was actually saying, the desire to move to 3 base meta wasn't really a conscious decision that you say stemmed from the community actually if you look at reddit or TL from back then many disliked 3 base meta.

Also the idea of a standard map has changed since WoL so a WoL standard map is not the same as a LotV standard map so just reusing that term without context is a bad idea.

I like the history of maps you do but some of your claims run counter to history and your inaccuracies and using the LotV "standard" to apply to WoL "standard" and vice versa cause some issues with some of your points. This is even more evident when you look at some "standard" WoL maps and many would view them as gimmicky in LotV and the same could be said if you flipped the expansions. I think a better discussion would be on what is a standard maps because what some pros consider standard other pros don't. Polt has said there were three standard maps in the pool, I believe CatZ said two to three, HuK has said none. That tells you a lot right there. Define standard in LotV before doing a commentary on history.

But the history of the maps being laid out was cool.

he never said a WoL standard map would be a standard map now too.

but I'm pretty sure maps like daybreak and CK would be regarded as standard today too. Although they maybe wouldn't be 100% balanced.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States14003 Posts
April 05 2016 15:37 GMT
#26
On April 06 2016 00:19 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:16 Cricketer12 wrote:
On April 05 2016 23:25 lichter wrote:
have fun loading this, kids on mobile

Took me about 3 seconds.

Also, sick stuff stu!

Lots of great nostalgia and memories in this article.


DID YOU WATCH THE VODS THO

Ah crap...let me do it tomorrow, after I take my econ test.
Engage, Zero target Engage, Engage, Kagari target Engage, Engage.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 05 2016 15:38 GMT
#27
Hm, just deleted 20 mins of textwall. I guess the clue of what I wanted to write is that this is - as we are used to from stu at this point - a very well written text about very minor things. Obviously every map is different and you can strategize around that. The question is, are two balanced HotS maps different enough so that players can actually take advantage of superior strategic decision making? My opinion is no, you could pretty much play the very same standard build on all maps. My very hope would be that blizzard just steps out at some point and balances the game in a way that 60% Orbital Shipyard winrate for Terran and 60% Lerilak Crest winrate for Zerg go away out of the respective matchups, because the underperforming race got improved tools to strategize with to also use the features they have trouble with.
Jintoss
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong117 Posts
April 05 2016 15:39 GMT
#28
Nice article, hard to read but well researched. Unfortunate it didn't translate to any thoughtful conclusions or suggestions.

Locking out 95% of the player base from advanced maps doesn't seem like a good idea.
We are the blades of Aiur
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
April 05 2016 15:40 GMT
#29
Maaaaaps

This is pretty cool. Hope DK gets this
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16098 Posts
April 05 2016 15:40 GMT
#30
On April 06 2016 00:36 Superbanana wrote:
"What is strategic diversity and interesting gameplay?"

Considering the method used by Blizzard, its a safe assumption they meant "different gameplay in different maps" by strategic diversity. If its interesting or not its far too subjective.

However, i think its the wrong way to deal with gameplay diversity, the real problem is maps that force the same playstyle in the same matchup. That means lack of gameplay diversity in the same map. Being forced into the same playstyle is not any better if you are still forced into 7 different ones, one per map. Even worse if you are forced to cheese or all in.

The LotV maps so far had a lack of gameplay diversity. What they did promote is different playstyles in different maps, which is not necessarily good and so far has been bad imo.

the article did a good job showing the gameplay differences between "standard" maps contradicting DKs statement that all standard maps play out the same.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
469 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 15:42:41
April 05 2016 15:41 GMT
#31
On April 06 2016 00:36 wjat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:33 Comedy wrote:
Good article, minor detail: stephano didn't invent 3 base vs protoss (3 base vs protoss has existed since BW and it was very rampant all throughout the early stages of WoL - as soon as forge expand became popular) nor did he invent bl/infestor. He did perfect the latter, though.


Stephano invented the 3base before pool vs protoss in sc2. (BW is not sc2) Moreover he was the first to compo bl/infestor when he was not even the best french player. (see his awesome come back vs ToD on Xel naga caverns)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbORwuLWFqA


what. stephano was notorious for going 15 pool into 3 hatch literally every game just to play it safe because he felt so comfortable vs protoss, while other zergs went for 3 bases more greedily.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16098 Posts
April 05 2016 15:45 GMT
#32
On April 06 2016 00:38 Big J wrote:
Hm, just deleted 20 mins of textwall. I guess the clue of what I wanted to write is that this is - as we are used to from stu at this point - a very well written text about very minor things. Obviously every map is different and you can strategize around that. The question is, are two balanced HotS maps different enough so that players can actually take advantage of superior strategic decision making? My opinion is no, you could pretty much play the very same standard build on all maps. My very hope would be that blizzard just steps out at some point and balances the game in a way that 60% Orbital Shipyard winrate for Terran and 60% Lerilak Crest winrate for Zerg go away out of the respective matchups, because the underperforming race got improved tools to strategize with to also use the features they have trouble with.

yes you could play the same build on every map. but you could also play EVERY build on EVERY map. ( so if the player chooses to do just one build every game he can do it of course)
I think the players choosing which style they want to play is better than the map forcing a playstyle on the player.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 05 2016 15:48 GMT
#33
On April 06 2016 00:36 wjat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:33 Comedy wrote:
Good article, minor detail: stephano didn't invent 3 base vs protoss (3 base vs protoss has existed since BW and it was very rampant all throughout the early stages of WoL - as soon as forge expand became popular) nor did he invent bl/infestor. He did perfect the latter, though.


Stephano invented the 3base before pool vs protoss in sc2. (BW is not sc2) Moreover he was the first to compo bl/infestor when he was not even the best french player. (see his awesome come back vs ToD on Xel naga caverns)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbORwuLWFqA


Oh, I noticed this mistake as well. 3 base zerg builds weren't invented or popularized by Stephano. E.g. NesTea did them way back at the start of 2011 when Terminus was introduced, e.g. in March 2011's GSTL finals against Alicia and they just slowly became standard once the maps allowed for them.
Superbanana
Profile Joined May 2014
2369 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 15:50:47
April 05 2016 15:50 GMT
#34
On April 06 2016 00:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:36 Superbanana wrote:
"What is strategic diversity and interesting gameplay?"

Considering the method used by Blizzard, its a safe assumption they meant "different gameplay in different maps" by strategic diversity. If its interesting or not its far too subjective.

However, i think its the wrong way to deal with gameplay diversity, the real problem is maps that force the same playstyle in the same matchup. That means lack of gameplay diversity in the same map. Being forced into the same playstyle is not any better if you are still forced into 7 different ones, one per map. Even worse if you are forced to cheese or all in.

The LotV maps so far had a lack of gameplay diversity. What they did promote is different playstyles in different maps, which is not necessarily good and so far has been bad imo.

the article did a good job showing the gameplay differences between "standard" maps contradicting DKs statement that all standard maps play out the same.


Yeah, i think so too.

While the LotV map pools promoted different gameplay in different maps, the strategic diversity on each map only got worse, or at least the mpas are not helping (the standard ones have more diverse gameplay).
In PvZ the zerg can make the situation spire out of control but protoss can adept to the situation.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
April 05 2016 15:51 GMT
#35
This is the the best article topic. I've wanted something like this for a long while.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 15:56:34
April 05 2016 15:56 GMT
#36
On April 06 2016 00:45 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:38 Big J wrote:
Hm, just deleted 20 mins of textwall. I guess the clue of what I wanted to write is that this is - as we are used to from stu at this point - a very well written text about very minor things. Obviously every map is different and you can strategize around that. The question is, are two balanced HotS maps different enough so that players can actually take advantage of superior strategic decision making? My opinion is no, you could pretty much play the very same standard build on all maps. My very hope would be that blizzard just steps out at some point and balances the game in a way that 60% Orbital Shipyard winrate for Terran and 60% Lerilak Crest winrate for Zerg go away out of the respective matchups, because the underperforming race got improved tools to strategize with to also use the features they have trouble with.

yes you could play the same build on every map. but you could also play EVERY build on EVERY map. ( so if the player chooses to do just one build every game he can do it of course)
I think the players choosing which style they want to play is better than the map forcing a playstyle on the player.


What do you mean with that? Semantically speaking: You can play any build on any map if you just choose to. It's just not going to be good on any map. Which is what I am talking about when I say you *can* do them.
An aggressive opening that uses the rush distance of Ulrena is surely not going to be good on a map like Overgrowth. So no, you cannot reasonably say you can do "that Ulrena build" on any map. You cannot do a spine crawler backdoor rush like on Expedition Lost on Overgrowth. You cannot do a good gangnam style opening on Frost. So no, I disagree. You couldn't do any build on any map. Most builds were plain garbage on most maps. You could do a few builds, that we then called standard builds.
Arceus
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Vietnam8333 Posts
April 05 2016 16:07 GMT
#37
At some point (late 2014, early 2015), GSL and especially KeSPA mapmakers seemed to significantly slow down their output. SPL havent got new unique maps for such a long time. I wonder if they are just lazy or Blizzard enforced some kind of policy to unify map pools. No disrespect to foreign mapmakers but I havent truly enjoyed new maps since the days of Arkanoid, Neo Planet S or Merry-Go-Round
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16098 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-05 16:09:07
April 05 2016 16:08 GMT
#38
On April 06 2016 00:56 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2016 00:45 Charoisaur wrote:
On April 06 2016 00:38 Big J wrote:
Hm, just deleted 20 mins of textwall. I guess the clue of what I wanted to write is that this is - as we are used to from stu at this point - a very well written text about very minor things. Obviously every map is different and you can strategize around that. The question is, are two balanced HotS maps different enough so that players can actually take advantage of superior strategic decision making? My opinion is no, you could pretty much play the very same standard build on all maps. My very hope would be that blizzard just steps out at some point and balances the game in a way that 60% Orbital Shipyard winrate for Terran and 60% Lerilak Crest winrate for Zerg go away out of the respective matchups, because the underperforming race got improved tools to strategize with to also use the features they have trouble with.

yes you could play the same build on every map. but you could also play EVERY build on EVERY map. ( so if the player chooses to do just one build every game he can do it of course)
I think the players choosing which style they want to play is better than the map forcing a playstyle on the player.


What do you mean with that? Semantically speaking: You can play any build on any map if you just choose to. It's just not going to be good on any map. Which is what I am talking about when I say you *can* do them.
An aggressive opening that uses the rush distance of Ulrena is surely not going to be good on a map like Overgrowth. So no, you cannot reasonably say you can do "that Ulrena build" on any map. You cannot do a spine crawler backdoor rush like on Expedition Lost on Overgrowth. You cannot do a good gangnam style opening on Frost. So no, I disagree. You couldn't do any build on any map. Most builds were plain garbage on most maps. You could do a few builds, that we then called standard builds.

I see I didn't articulate myself accurately enough.
my point is that although you can do the same build on every map there is still a huge variety of builds you can do. It's not like in every overgrowth game we see the same build.
In fact the numbers of different viable build orders is higher than on most unique maps. On prion for example you have to open 3 rax reaper every game if you don't want to play from behind, on ulrena you have to open with an early tank in tvz etc...
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Alluton
Profile Joined February 2015
Finland113 Posts
April 05 2016 16:08 GMT
#39
Great article. Hopefully it catches blizz attention too.
Aocowns
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway6070 Posts
April 05 2016 16:15 GMT
#40
Great read, great perspective, solid opinions. Let's see if blizzard does more than acknowledge it's existence!
I'm a salt-lord and hater of mech and ForGG, don't take me seriously, it's just my salt-humour speaking i swear. |KadaverBB best TL gaoler| |~IdrA's #1 fan~| SetGuitarsToKill and Duckk are my martyr heroes |
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