On February 13 2016 05:21 cheekymonkey wrote: Please don't kill the reaper. It's an interesting unit right now, and reaper openings make the game more entertaining. I fear that blizzard will go overboard with this. Someone suggested making the bomb an upgrade. This would result in 0 usage of this upgrade. No one will make a tech-lab and the invest in an upgrade for a unit that loses its utility very quickly.
How about increasing the Reaper bomb cool down by 5 seconds?
On February 13 2016 04:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I hadn't seen that map archetypes post (i.imgur.com). Seems interesting conceptually.
I'm also disappointed that Blizzard is still at the state of thinking there might be a problem in PvZ. Seems like any changes there will be slow to come.
Yeah I think they should do a ravager nerf, at minimum delay the ability. I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really.
I imagine that would help a lot, maybe a damage tweak if needed, but at minimum delay the ability.
Other then that though what do we change for pvz? What do we buff or nerf? I feel like the only possible issue would be ravagers but other then that what other issues are in the match up that people think are actually imbalanced? Would be curious to note.
The obvious one for me is the mutalisk. Why do Protoss open stargate or double stargate all the time and if they don't they usually go blink? Because if you play any other way a zerg can build 10+ mutas in the midgame and you just don't have the tech or units to combat that. But what happens is that a lot of times these Protoss players then get rolled by lurkers and ravagers, because zerg in LotV finally has ground units that are somewhat equal to the Protoss robotech units. And since these groundbased games are much more fun than always just trying to catch the opponent with the proper air tech switch I would much rather prefer a mutalisk nerf than a severe lurker/ravager nerf. Though I have been advocating for small ravager nerfs to cooldown and morph time one way or another, since I think these values make the unit too spamy.
Yes that is an issue. Protoss needs an anti ground buff versus Mutalisks and I forgot about that problem with the match up (I never do mutas really and never have as I am not a fan of base trades). I don't know if they need a new unit or if they can buff blink stalkers against air as I do agree that Protoss does have to open up stargate. If they don't then Muta's just destroy them.
I don't think Blizzard should nerf Mutas and I hope what they do is buff AA ground for Toss and that should help a lot. Terran has a million ways to deal with Mutas with thors, widow mines, liberators, etc and Toss only has Phoenix. I do hope this does get looked into at some point as I personally find it boring seeing a stargateless Toss get destroyed due to the Muta switch.
What if there were an island type map that had bridges trigger after a certain time in the game? Say... 7 minutes or so. I'm actually not sure of game length and timing anymore, since I'm far more of a spectator than a player, but is this something that could be considered?
I'm thinking of maps similar to the ones used in the ShoutCraft Team League. There were a lot of unique maps, and there was one kind of like that. If i remember correctly, there were neutral turrets, and bridge controls to a high-yield base. That's a little different than what I'm suggesting, but perhaps something similar.
On February 13 2016 05:30 ejozl wrote: In TvT is there no viability of making 1-3 Ghosts? I've been playing it some on my off race. Snipe is sick vs Reapers, they fair well vs Hellions and can EMP Cloaked Banshee's.
I don't want to come across as overly harsh, but you must be playing at low levels because in TvT when it goes to Reaper wars you can be almost dead before the factory is finished. There is no way you could possibly have Ghosts out to deal with the Reapers in the openings that are common/possible in TvT.
That said, I dont think the Reaper should be changed. If it's changed it loses any viability and purpose -- Like someone mentinoed, making the grenade an upgrade would be so hilariously the wrong move because NOBODY will research an ability you can use in the first 2 minutes of the game for it to be pretty much worthless in the rest of the game.
On February 13 2016 05:30 ejozl wrote: In TvT is there no viability of making 1-3 Ghosts? I've been playing it some on my off race. Snipe is sick vs Reapers, they fair well vs Hellions and can EMP Cloaked Banshee's.
I don't want to come across as overly harsh, but you must be playing at low levels because in TvT when it goes to Reaper wars you can be almost dead before the factory is finished. There is no way you could possibly have Ghosts out to deal with the Reapers in the openings that are common/possible in TvT.
That said, I dont think the Reaper should be changed. If it's changed it loses any viability and purpose -- Like someone mentinoed, making the grenade an upgrade would be so hilariously the wrong move because NOBODY will research an ability you can use in the first 2 minutes of the game for it to be pretty much worthless in the rest of the game.
Reapers should be nerfed via the maps.
The only person who mentioned making the reaper grenade an upgrade was me, and the original person who criticized the idea didn't bother reading that it was to change its use. Lose the grenade it currently has and gain its anti building attack it had in WoL. This makes it worthwhile in the later game and still worth while in the early game due to its still existent harass potential. Yes making the grenade as is an upgrade is silly, but making it a unit that is worth using beyond 5 minutes isn't.
Think it would be good to make Ravager mortar have an attack penalty vs. buildings, would help a lot in their strength vs. bunkers, pylons, and cannons.
On February 13 2016 04:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I hadn't seen that map archetypes post (i.imgur.com). Seems interesting conceptually.
I'm also disappointed that Blizzard is still at the state of thinking there might be a problem in PvZ. Seems like any changes there will be slow to come.
Yeah I think they should do a ravager nerf, at minimum delay the ability. I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really.
I imagine that would help a lot, maybe a damage tweak if needed, but at minimum delay the ability.
Other then that though what do we change for pvz? What do we buff or nerf? I feel like the only possible issue would be ravagers but other then that what other issues are in the match up that people think are actually imbalanced? Would be curious to note.
The obvious one for me is the mutalisk. Why do Protoss open stargate or double stargate all the time and if they don't they usually go blink? Because if you play any other way a zerg can build 10+ mutas in the midgame and you just don't have the tech or units to combat that. But what happens is that a lot of times these Protoss players then get rolled by lurkers and ravagers, because zerg in LotV finally has ground units that are somewhat equal to the Protoss robotech units. And since these groundbased games are much more fun than always just trying to catch the opponent with the proper air tech switch I would much rather prefer a mutalisk nerf than a severe lurker/ravager nerf. Though I have been advocating for small ravager nerfs to cooldown and morph time one way or another, since I think these values make the unit too spamy.
Yes that is an issue. Protoss needs an anti ground buff versus Mutalisks and I forgot about that problem with the match up (I never do mutas really and never have as I am not a fan of base trades). I don't know if they need a new unit or if they can buff blink stalkers against air as I do agree that Protoss does have to open up stargate. If they don't then Muta's just destroy them.
I don't think Blizzard should nerf Mutas and I hope what they do is buff AA ground for Toss and that should help a lot. Terran has a million ways to deal with Mutas with thors, widow mines, liberators, etc and Toss only has Phoenix. I do hope this does get looked into at some point as I personally find it boring seeing a stargateless Toss get destroyed due to the Muta switch.
I doubt D Kim's ego would allow for it. 1) I don't think he wants to appease "harsh critics:" I've been giving grief over this and pleading for something to be done since I've played SC 2. If you concede, you have to admit that maybe you've been wrong all this time. 2) Mutas are another unit he has buffed (speed and regen...). It's not good optics if you have to keep nerfing units, in some way, after buffing them. He missed the window of acceptability: if you make a mistake and promptly rectify it, then that's good/natural. However, if it takes years... then that's kinda like saying "yeah, I've gotten paid to imbalance the game. I probably should return some money..."
So, in short, Kim will try to find whatever workaround he can to achieve near 50% numbers. If the game ends up resembling all that is trash, at the end of the day he is just going to say "well, I did my job." The only real question is how will he go about achieving 50% in a horrible way. In HotS it was via all-ins. Is there a gimmicky strat that can be buffed to get to 50%? Can he reduce warp-in times drastically? Will be interesting to see how someone who has no interest in the betterment of the game goes about it...
On February 13 2016 08:32 jpg06051992 wrote: The solution at this point seems clear, I'm a fan of smaller balance changes in a game of such depth like Starcraft, but when things are a problem they need to be addressed sooner rather then later, people are competing for serious money so being slothful on prudent balance changes seems a bit irresponsible.
it takes at least 1 year after release for a diverse race RTS to come close to being balanced. Diverse race RTS games have always been tough to balance. Any one whose primary income relies upon this game that does not know this is being irresponsible.
i prefer Blizzard to take their time and let things simmer and cook a little before making any changes. If that means it takes 1.5 years...then so be it.
For me, as a zerg player, 5.33 maps out of 7 maps were disastrous. Surely there are many zerg favored maps (ex. lerilak, prion terraces, etc.), but I never enjoyed playing on those maps. Most of those maps had certain problems with vs T or vs Z, and too strong all-ins. The only maps enjoyable were Dusk Towers and Ruins of Seras(only cross/horizontal spawns).
On February 13 2016 12:27 OSCEWiNtER wrote: Ravager nerf would be necessary, but I think Blizz should also do something with the lingdrops, it seem to cause very hard time to protoss players.
Toss is mostly hurting at the start IMO. There are deadly timings where you have 1 overcharge instead of 3 due to the energy cost
Maybe Blizzard should fire one of their mapmakers and use that money to pay prizes for community designed maps. Would be good if the community got to vote for a least half of the map pool too, then DK would have to make fairly convincing arguments to get every map he wanted.
On February 13 2016 13:03 Korakys wrote: Maybe Blizzard should fire one of their mapmakers and use that money to pay prizes for community designed maps. Would be good if the community got to vote for a least half of the map pool too, then DK would have to make fairly convincing arguments to get every map he wanted.
The problem of course is that the community at large is terrible at judging maps. Biome won the popular vote for the fourth TL map contest after all (though I do blame the voting system for pushing the map that stand out the most).
Still fake discussion, still nothing being done, people are still getting frustred on the ladder. - disruptor ping pong PvP - ridiculous TvT drop tanks - ridiculous "terran on a timer let's try to kill the most drones" TvZ - ridiculous warp prism based PvT
TvZ especially, everyone sees it's a stupid matchup were terran is overwhelming in harass while playing on a timer. You're forced to push push push harass harass make something happen, while zerg is camping hard as fuck (not by choice) waiting for ultras and T3 where he'll always win.
- OF COURSE the ravager needs a nerf - OF COURSE the reaper needs a nerf - OF COURSE the tankivac needs to be removed - OF COURSE the blink pickup needs to be removed
But then again, blizzard entertainment, the compagny who brought you 30 dmg charge zealot : "yeaaah, we'll waaait. We're loooking into it. We neeeed more feedback. Yeaaaah."
EPT
