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On February 13 2016 06:42 SiaBBo wrote:Hopefully they will also change 2v2/3v3/4v4 maps. Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 06:41 H0i wrote:
Instead of nerfing zerg, they should buff protoss' ability to spread out their units and defend multiple bases in some way. Preferably a way which also helps against roaches/ravagers early to midgame. Yeah it's like Protoss doesn't have warp-in mechanic that can reinforce bases immediately, Photon Overcharge or Mass Recall already.
Well there was this huge PO nerf you may have read about and since lotv, slow warpins and double damage during said slow warpin
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I still think pick sieged tank should stay, if its changed (while buffing the tank) then make the tank unsiege while on the medivac, taking space of one unsieged tank. This way they can be saved but sieged tank drops will be gone.
About a nerf to ravagers, if we are going that direction to fix PvZ, then increased cooldown on bile makes sense. Right now ravagers spam that too much. But i don't think a nerf to zerg early game is the way to go, it may create a situation where protoss all ins a lot because zerg just dies early on, while later zerg is still stronger.
Sure, zerg will play less greedy, but is zerg greed really the issue? I really think the problem lies in mid game armies, that are too strong vs protoss. Hive tech might not be the issue either. Protoss has the tools as long as they make it to the late game on even ground.
In other words, nerf lair tech vs protoss. Do people die to ravagers all ins that much? (please do not take prion terraces into account)
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So... when to deal with the IMBALISK issues in TVZ, blind?
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why not consider cutting out the map with the highest veto rate?
i like how he is waiting to pull the trigger on several different changes that influence each other. like Ravager ability cool down increase and Siege Tank Medivac pick ups. i think bundling the changes together and sticking them one all-at-once into a PTR map is the way to go.
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On February 13 2016 06:51 rockslave wrote:
Do ravagers really need their auto-attack? Maybe that would be a better place to mess that wouldn't make it worse against FF or Liberators.
SC2 does not need to be based even more around abilities imo.
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On February 13 2016 04:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 04:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:I hadn't seen that map archetypes post ( i.imgur.com). Seems interesting conceptually. I'm also disappointed that Blizzard is still at the state of thinking there might be a problem in PvZ. Seems like any changes there will be slow to come. Yeah I think they should do a ravager nerf, at minimum delay the ability. I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really. I imagine that would help a lot, maybe a damage tweak if needed, but at minimum delay the ability. Other then that though what do we change for pvz? What do we buff or nerf? I feel like the only possible issue would be ravagers but other then that what other issues are in the match up that people think are actually imbalanced? Would be curious to note.
The obvious one for me is the mutalisk. Why do Protoss open stargate or double stargate all the time and if they don't they usually go blink? Because if you play any other way a zerg can build 10+ mutas in the midgame and you just don't have the tech or units to combat that.
But what happens is that a lot of times these Protoss players then get rolled by lurkers and ravagers, because zerg in LotV finally has ground units that are somewhat equal to the Protoss robotech units. And since these groundbased games are much more fun than always just trying to catch the opponent with the proper air tech switch I would much rather prefer a mutalisk nerf than a severe lurker/ravager nerf. Though I have been advocating for small ravager nerfs to cooldown and morph time one way or another, since I think these values make the unit too spamy.
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On February 13 2016 07:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 04:23 blade55555 wrote:On February 13 2016 04:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:I hadn't seen that map archetypes post ( i.imgur.com). Seems interesting conceptually. I'm also disappointed that Blizzard is still at the state of thinking there might be a problem in PvZ. Seems like any changes there will be slow to come. Yeah I think they should do a ravager nerf, at minimum delay the ability. I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really. I imagine that would help a lot, maybe a damage tweak if needed, but at minimum delay the ability. Other then that though what do we change for pvz? What do we buff or nerf? I feel like the only possible issue would be ravagers but other then that what other issues are in the match up that people think are actually imbalanced? Would be curious to note. The obvious one for me is the mutalisk. Why do Protoss open stargate or double stargate all the time and if they don't they usually go blink? Because if you play any other way a zerg can build 10+ mutas in the midgame and you just don't have the tech or units to combat that. But what happens is that a lot of times these Protoss players then get rolled by lurkers and ravagers, because zerg in LotV finally has ground units that are somewhat equal to the Protoss robotech units. And since these groundbased games are much more fun than always just trying to catch the opponent with the proper air tech switch I would much rather prefer a mutalisk nerf than a severe lurker/ravager nerf. Though I have been advocating for small ravager nerfs to cooldown and morph time one way or another, since I think these values make the unit too spamy.
We need maelstrom back :p
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On February 13 2016 07:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 04:23 blade55555 wrote:On February 13 2016 04:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:I hadn't seen that map archetypes post ( i.imgur.com). Seems interesting conceptually. I'm also disappointed that Blizzard is still at the state of thinking there might be a problem in PvZ. Seems like any changes there will be slow to come. Yeah I think they should do a ravager nerf, at minimum delay the ability. I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really. I imagine that would help a lot, maybe a damage tweak if needed, but at minimum delay the ability. Other then that though what do we change for pvz? What do we buff or nerf? I feel like the only possible issue would be ravagers but other then that what other issues are in the match up that people think are actually imbalanced? Would be curious to note. The obvious one for me is the mutalisk. Why do Protoss open stargate or double stargate all the time and if they don't they usually go blink? Because if you play any other way a zerg can build 10+ mutas in the midgame and you just don't have the tech or units to combat that. But what happens is that a lot of times these Protoss players then get rolled by lurkers and ravagers, because zerg in LotV finally has ground units that are somewhat equal to the Protoss robotech units. And since these groundbased games are much more fun than always just trying to catch the opponent with the proper air tech switch I would much rather prefer a mutalisk nerf than a severe lurker/ravager nerf. Though I have been advocating for small ravager nerfs to cooldown and morph time one way or another, since I think these values make the unit too spamy.
This. Having to blind-counter mutas every single game will make the MU stagnant.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really.
The cooldown is 1.5x longer than blink atm. It actually feels long to use, you're probably more concerned about the time between the first shade ending and the second shade being able to be cast as that's much shorter.
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I think island maps could be interesting, but it might be too soon.
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On February 13 2016 07:31 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really. The cooldown is 1.5x longer than blink atm
Blink has a cd of 7 seconds, Corrosive Bile 6 seconds......soo.....yeah.....
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
On February 13 2016 07:42 Jonsoload wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 07:31 Cyro wrote:You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really. The cooldown is 1.5x longer than blink atm Blink has a cd of 7 seconds, Corrosive Bile 6 seconds......soo.....yeah.....
Oops - for clarity, the line before that quote is talking about the adept shade cooldown: I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. Which is 11 seconds.
The gap between shade 1 ending and shade 2 starting is only 4 seconds, however.
If the shade lasted 5s and had a 6s gap to next one (instead of lasting 7s and having a 4s gap) it would feel completely different and adress those zerg complaints without changing the CD, IMO.
If it has to be changed in the first place, which seems unneccesary since PvT is roughly even and there's strong argument for Z being ahead in PvZ
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So... how about longer cooldown on bile, regeneration nerf on mutas, -1 armor for chitinous plating research (maybe reducing the cost), remove sieged tank drops (not affecting sieged tank pick up), remove liberator range tech (or nerf and reduce cost), buff siege tank damage slightly, and nerf immortal ability slightly.
Fixed?
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On February 13 2016 07:26 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 07:16 Big J wrote:On February 13 2016 04:23 blade55555 wrote:On February 13 2016 04:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:I hadn't seen that map archetypes post ( i.imgur.com). Seems interesting conceptually. I'm also disappointed that Blizzard is still at the state of thinking there might be a problem in PvZ. Seems like any changes there will be slow to come. Yeah I think they should do a ravager nerf, at minimum delay the ability. I think that and the adept's ability need longer cool downs. You shouldn't be able to spam it every 5 seconds, make it 15 seconds or something so you can't just mindlessly spam the ability with no consequence really. I imagine that would help a lot, maybe a damage tweak if needed, but at minimum delay the ability. Other then that though what do we change for pvz? What do we buff or nerf? I feel like the only possible issue would be ravagers but other then that what other issues are in the match up that people think are actually imbalanced? Would be curious to note. The obvious one for me is the mutalisk. Why do Protoss open stargate or double stargate all the time and if they don't they usually go blink? Because if you play any other way a zerg can build 10+ mutas in the midgame and you just don't have the tech or units to combat that. But what happens is that a lot of times these Protoss players then get rolled by lurkers and ravagers, because zerg in LotV finally has ground units that are somewhat equal to the Protoss robotech units. And since these groundbased games are much more fun than always just trying to catch the opponent with the proper air tech switch I would much rather prefer a mutalisk nerf than a severe lurker/ravager nerf. Though I have been advocating for small ravager nerfs to cooldown and morph time one way or another, since I think these values make the unit too spamy. This. Having to blind-counter mutas every single game will make the MU stagnant.
I agree with this to some extent. I think that the current meta in PvZ has been around inconsistently yet persistently: Protoss always opens Twilight for option of Blink or Stargate in order to not be rolled by Zerg. However, I'm not sure I see a huge problem with that. I mean, if Mutas get nerf'd, you can bascially say goodbye -- they're already shit against a Protoss that is prepared for them, and the central aspect of Mutas is that they can swoop in at just the right moment and deal enormous damage. Fun to deal with as a Protoss? No. However, I do like the strategic depth that it can bring to the table.
I think we should consider what the world of PvZ would be like with a small Ravager nerf that would weaken them in the early midgame. In my mind, it seems as if this would mean that Protoss would be able to avoid going into tech that can hold back Ravager timings or dying instantly to certain Ravager builds. I think that it's boring as a P to have to build double Robo after every Stargate opening I do just to get enough Disruptors and Immortals out to push back a Ravager/Roach/Hydra timing. And don't even get me started about 1 or 2 base Ravager timings on Ulrena.
Ultimately, I think that there needs to be balance map exploration here...DKim seems to be carefully considering the changes, which makes me happy, because pushing these through too quickly could really fuck up the game.
On a different note, I'm unhappy with the new classification of maps Blizzard is considering...I think it's going to oblige the developers to make a map from every category on the table, and will overall pigeon-hole the dev team and SC2 community into only thinking about maps from a set, mapped-out viewpoint. Essentially, it closes off the possibility for other ways of seeing the map-making process.
I can't comment on the other match-ups, but it seems as if Blizzard is going at this pretty level-headedly, which is good, because I've been unsure of some of their recent posts.
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They still doesn't see a problem with lurkers.
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As someone said, the mutalisk vs phoenix at PvZ needs to be fixed. Toss needs to open penix and blink all the games.. Maybe instead of 5+2 range for phoenix, go back to the 6 range from WOL? That would make the phoenix not useless or op against mutas.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
On February 13 2016 08:22 StarscreamG1 wrote:
As someone said, the mutalisk vs phoenix at PvZ needs to be fixed. Toss needs to open penix and blink all the games.. Maybe instead of 5+2 range for phoenix, go back to the 6 range from WOL? That would make the phoenix not useless or op against mutas.
I've seen several pro games recently with a zerg muta-switching into a protoss who already has 6-8 phoenix's because muta+viper is fairly strong against phoenix even with APC upgraded. There's no need for phoenix nerf
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The solution at this point seems clear, I'm a fan of smaller balance changes in a game of such depth like Starcraft, but when things are a problem they need to be addressed sooner rather then later, people are competing for serious money so being slothful on prudent balance changes seems a bit irresponsible.
I like being a bit OP as much as the next Zerg but watching professional level ZvP is kinda bad at the moment, Protoss seems really screwed against Lurkers unless they have Templars ready to go. Ravager pushes when executed seem deadly and Immortals (even though I think it was too good vs. mech previously) kind of went from a scary unit to a juicy target.
Change Bile, don't just nerf it, in it's current incarnation medivac pickup will never be nerfed which sucks because tankivacs existing because Ravagers exist seems really counter productive, Zerg didn't even need any help against mech back in HOTS so an ability that seems fine tuned to killing Siege Tanks seems like a prime candidate for a change.
Perhaps buff Ravager combat stats and make it a bit more effective against light units with Bile becoming a passive ability? Roach/Hydra is notoriously shit against bio and notoriously strong against mech play, so why not nerf Bile to be better vs bio and worse vs mech? Maybe +2 innate damage against light biological units? I don't know, anything really.
Immortal could probably use a small buff, Sentry also needs a bit of love, a high sentry count used to be scary, now they are just delicious gas heavy targets for Bile. Once again, Bile needs to be removed in it's current form so the Sentry can actually be used again, good force fields were a distinct mark or high caliber Protoss players, now it's unusable at the pro level since Ravagers are a go to unit in every single match up.
Still really surprised Liberator not addressed, Mutalisk only exists to defend drops now, totally neutering an iconic unit feels a bit harsh to Mutalisk harass which has a very high skill cap.
Change Bile to +2 innate vs bio/remove projectile, tankivacs are mandatory with it in the game.
Revert Immortals to previous form so they can fight Lurkers more straight up, or at the very least absorb more damage.
Nerf Liberator splash or make it move slower, the unit is the definition of abusive and it's another hard counter unit which is the last thing this game needs. Buff Ghost or Banshee and nerf this unit please. I don't even lose that many games to it, it's not "op" it's just really dumb to play against. Apologies on coming off with an opinion like this but the unit is too versatile (fast, durable, kills drones better then banshees, holds ground better then tanks, and massacres Mutalisks in small and large numbers)
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Nothing about Ultras? You are wasting your time on deliberating on Reapers but you are not addressing Ultras. Awesome. So awesome. TvZ is so fun now. Just waiting for this broken unit to spawn and write gg.
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EPT
