• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:44
CEST 02:44
KST 09:44
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors2Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists22
Community News
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event10Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results12026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) SC2 INu's Battles#15 <BO.9 2Matches> WardiTV Spring Cup SEL Masters #6 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors Why there arent any 256x256 pro maps? BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] RO16 Group Stage - 02 - 10 May
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Movie Stars In Video Games: …
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1601 users

SC2's shrinking talent pool: stuchiu on ESPN - Page 23

Forum Index > SC2 General
545 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 21 22 23 24 25 28 Next All
Ppjack
Profile Joined March 2015
Belgium489 Posts
January 24 2016 18:22 GMT
#441
On January 25 2016 03:16 207aicila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote:

Until you can prove that having only a korean scene where no foreigner can enter because of its own structure is good for starcraft2, I will support the developpment of foreign (aka fucking rest of the world) esport.


Is the fact that previous DreamHack events had better viewership proof enough? If not, I'm willing to wait to make the same argument when numbers are low for other events as well.

Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote:
Starcraft does not live in its own time. If any game can be as sustainable as cs:go or league in term of business opportunities and entertainment, you should always follow this path and developp your market as much as you can.


Oh I see, you're one of those esports zealots who thinks every game that doesn't have 50 million viewers (because League and CS:GO totally aren't exceptions) is dead or that somehow this is a feasible goal for SC2, a much more niche game in a niche and declining genre. Carry on then.

Actually no, feel free to teach more about this scene that I have followed for almost 6 years (and BW for much longer before that), it's quite amusing.


I did not follow broodwar, and I think this korean dominance nostalgia is why this community is so split. Esport has evolved and we should do everything we can to make it global. Starcraft2 is already a niche game in itself (rts genre) don't make it more niche (only korean ecosystem viable)
<;o)
Ppjack
Profile Joined March 2015
Belgium489 Posts
January 24 2016 18:24 GMT
#442
On January 25 2016 03:21 HsDLTitich wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 02:59 Ppjack wrote:
On January 25 2016 02:44 Incognoto wrote:
On January 25 2016 01:48 DJHelium wrote:
On January 25 2016 01:37 Incognoto wrote:
To be fair I think that Nathanias hasn't read the article in its entirety and is assuming that it's a "dead gaem" article (which it is not! on the contrary it's an article which signals a pretty big problem in how Blizzard is stifling the Korean scene).

Starcraft is nate's livelihood so it makes sense that he wouldn't be interesting in giving it credence. I think that were I in his shoes (or any foreigner casters shoe's) I would do my best to not comment on the article. Perhaps be a bit more vocal about Blizzards (borderline racist) policies.


Probably shouldn't comment on what the article is about without reading it.


I read the article.

"The Korean scene is slowly dying out and the new WCS 2016 system does nothin to help it."

Who sets WCS 2016? Blizzard..

Honestly I just have popcorn here with me, seeing foreigners and those who cast them crying about how they're finally free from Korea's reign of terror. My respect for the foreign starcraft community descends a little more each day.

I'm just hoping that the mediatic shit-storm makes Blizzards re-evaluate their policy. The mixing of Korea and the foreign land was really good for both scenes: Koreans and foreigners. We were starting to get to the point where it was slowly become ONE big huge scene and it was awesome to see.

Now we have this big ugly divide.



Do you watch League ?
The only think that lacks in this WCS system is more than only one global event. If you want to watch koreans go watch korean leagues (and I do). But stop complaining about them being held out from every foreign tournament, everyone has its own and Blizzard tried.

The purpose is to have a sustainable foreign scene in the long term (aka not dead game), not tournaments organized for koreans beneficiting of the korean ladder/infrastructures/organisations and so on, to come and grab the money.


So a european organization held a tournament in Europe, why were americans allowed to come and grab our money? This makes no sense.


Because starcraft is split between foreigners / korea.
It Blizzard wanted to make it totally continentally locked, they could. That would just make no sense
<;o)
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55571 Posts
January 24 2016 18:25 GMT
#443
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote:
Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter?

Well duh, it's about WCS, it was going to happen eventually.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Ansibled
Profile Joined November 2014
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-24 18:25:33
January 24 2016 18:25 GMT
#444
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote:
Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter?

I think it occurs whenever this topic comes up, it's a heated issue and one that rarely people seem to be reasonable on.
'StarCraft is just a fairy tale told to scare children actually.'
TL+ Member
IceBerrY
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany220 Posts
January 24 2016 18:25 GMT
#445
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote:
Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter?


It is a long time trend on TL. If i want to see a discussion, i am prefering reddit. Sad but true.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
January 24 2016 18:26 GMT
#446
Here's the thing. Korea has been in decline before this change too. Flash, Bisu, and many other pros have noted that the crowds and fans were not out in force as they were for BW. SpoTV had to hire cute girls in the audience and have them cheer.

I'm not going to say that this change alone will destabilize Korea sc2 for 2016. The trend has been around for a while. But this change does not do anything to help and even makes the korea scene weaker.

I honestly don't like the decision taken, but with shrinking budgets and decreased willingness on tournament hosts (such as DH) to have sc2 tournaments, this can be seen as a last ditch effort to stabilize the sc2 scene (maybe even grow it). If it does not help, then we'll just go through the motion of an ever shrinking scene that was expected anyway.

I think the future of sc2 will lie with the hardcore and grassroot anyway.

That said, I love you Jealous.
rip passion
207aicila
Profile Joined January 2015
1237 Posts
January 24 2016 18:29 GMT
#447
On January 25 2016 03:22 Ppjack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:16 207aicila wrote:
On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote:

Until you can prove that having only a korean scene where no foreigner can enter because of its own structure is good for starcraft2, I will support the developpment of foreign (aka fucking rest of the world) esport.


Is the fact that previous DreamHack events had better viewership proof enough? If not, I'm willing to wait to make the same argument when numbers are low for other events as well.

On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote:
Starcraft does not live in its own time. If any game can be as sustainable as cs:go or league in term of business opportunities and entertainment, you should always follow this path and developp your market as much as you can.


Oh I see, you're one of those esports zealots who thinks every game that doesn't have 50 million viewers (because League and CS:GO totally aren't exceptions) is dead or that somehow this is a feasible goal for SC2, a much more niche game in a niche and declining genre. Carry on then.

Actually no, feel free to teach more about this scene that I have followed for almost 6 years (and BW for much longer before that), it's quite amusing.


I did not follow broodwar, and I think this korean dominance nostalgia is why this community is so split. Esport has evolved and we should do everything we can to make it global. Starcraft2 is already a niche game in itself (rts genre) don't make it more niche (only korean ecosystem viable)


That's an interesting strawman, but no, BW was not the only esport I followed before SC2, and I don't necessarily have any kind of nostalgia for that particular aspect, although I will tell you it sure created a shit ton of hype when people like ElkY or Legionnaire or IdrA actually went and competed with the Koreans.

I've also followed esports like CS and Quake, whose scenes were fairly interesting in that it was only EU and NA but virtually impossible to play cross-continent at a high level due to latency. NA CS has a reputation of being quite inferior, whereas Quake was a lot more balanced usually.

Anyway that's all beside the point, I simply don't give a shit about the nationality of who I'm watching, I just want to see as many top level games as I can.
mfw people who never followed BW speak about sAviOr as if they know anything... -___-''''
TL+ Member
207aicila
Profile Joined January 2015
1237 Posts
January 24 2016 18:30 GMT
#448
On January 25 2016 03:25 IceBerrY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote:
Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter?


It is a long time trend on TL. If i want to see a discussion, i am prefering reddit. Sad but true.


You mean Reddit where the collective opinion on a topic changes on a dime and if you're not 100% in agreement you'll get downvoted to oblivion and flamed by drama-fiending shitposters? I'll take a real discussion board any day of the week, well, any except NeoGAF.
mfw people who never followed BW speak about sAviOr as if they know anything... -___-''''
TL+ Member
IceBerrY
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany220 Posts
January 24 2016 18:38 GMT
#449
On January 25 2016 03:30 207aicila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:25 IceBerrY wrote:
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote:
Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter?


It is a long time trend on TL. If i want to see a discussion, i am prefering reddit. Sad but true.


You mean Reddit where the collective opinion on a topic changes on a dime and if you're not 100% in agreement you'll get downvoted to oblivion and flamed by drama-fiending shitposters? I'll take a real discussion board any day of the week, well, any except NeoGAF.


Touché.

On a serious note, i didn´t really mean it, it´s just that people on TL are arguing heavier, then i can remember.
Arvendilin
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany1878 Posts
January 24 2016 18:41 GMT
#450
On January 25 2016 02:22 Elentos wrote:

Anyone from around the world can play in WCS and even Korean players can "buy in" so WCS is neither continental, nor national.

Sometimes, I feel like Twitter is a problem for humanity.

It is continental because all the NA players suck so much they don't even matter HEEEYOOOO
My heroes: Jangbi, Bisu, Stork and BeSt for BW, Rain, Zest and Stats for SC2! Need a better Signature tbh...
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
January 24 2016 18:48 GMT
#451
Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO.

rip passion
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28528 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-24 18:56:43
January 24 2016 18:55 GMT
#452
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote:
Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO.

https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425

Nah, he just means to say Spain and Brazil are the best nations in football so should be able to send more teams and the continent of Asia sucks so should be excluded (to make room for the extra teams the best are sending), sarcastically of course. But yeah, these analogies aren't helping much xD
I Protoss winner, could it be?
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
January 24 2016 18:56 GMT
#453
Oh so we're using this thread as the drama thread.

Ya Apollo and Nate were way out of line, especially Nathanias who I've lost a lot of respect for over this.
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Arvendilin
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany1878 Posts
January 24 2016 18:56 GMT
#454
Can I just say... I love Thorin, he actually defends stuchiu and then goes on an all-out aggressive war, thats pretty fun :D

It might be a bad sign but I aggree with him on a lot of things lol
My heroes: Jangbi, Bisu, Stork and BeSt for BW, Rain, Zest and Stats for SC2! Need a better Signature tbh...
Wrath
Profile Blog Joined July 2014
3174 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-24 19:08:47
January 24 2016 18:57 GMT
#455
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote:
Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO.

https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425


This is not racial issue but stupidity issue. We are not fighting over because Foreigners are having more tournaments to play and win, we support that. But we say that should not come at the cost of Koreans. But no, lets keep shit posting twitter, that will be better as a community figurehead.

The article targets an issue with the Korean scene and that WCS changes ignores that and focuses only on the foreigners. What our glorious community figures do? Insulting and author the call him "shitter" while admitting not reading the article. Then slowly start saying "It was not my intention"

"IT IS AN HONEST MISTAKE"...

Now the whole twitter evolved and everyone joining their own sides and calling each other out over a tweet... A FUCKING TWEET!

And the drama continues tonight on twitter...

EDIT: fixed a typo...
Arvendilin
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany1878 Posts
January 24 2016 18:58 GMT
#456
On January 25 2016 03:55 Penev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote:
Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO.

https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425

Nah, he just means to say Spain and Brazil are the best nations in football so should be able to send more teams and the continent of Asia sucks so should be excluded (to make room for the extra teams the best are sending), sarcastically of course. But yeah, these analogies aren't helping much xD

Lets be honest, he's just salty the Netherlands didn't qualify for the EuroCup and fears that if it gets unlocked they'd never get into the worldcup looking at their level of play
My heroes: Jangbi, Bisu, Stork and BeSt for BW, Rain, Zest and Stats for SC2! Need a better Signature tbh...
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
January 24 2016 18:58 GMT
#457
On January 25 2016 03:56 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Oh so we're using this thread as the drama thread.

Ya Apollo and Nate were way out of line, especially Nathanias who I've lost a lot of respect for over this.


You go and put the results here now! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/502741-dreamhack-leipzig-day-3

Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
January 24 2016 19:00 GMT
#458
On January 25 2016 03:58 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:56 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Oh so we're using this thread as the drama thread.

Ya Apollo and Nate were way out of line, especially Nathanias who I've lost a lot of respect for over this.


You go and put the results here now! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/502741-dreamhack-leipzig-day-3


NO! I had it as a link to liquipedia and someone changed it without my consent. I'm not updating it out of principle now
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
207aicila
Profile Joined January 2015
1237 Posts
January 24 2016 19:03 GMT
#459
On January 25 2016 03:57 WrathSCII wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote:
Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO.

https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425


This is not racial issue but stupidity issue. We are not fighting over because Foreigners are having more tournaments to play and win, we support that. But we say that should not come at the cost of Koreans. But no, lets keep shit posting twitter, that will be better as a community figurehead.

The article targets an issue with the Korean scene and that WCS changes ignores that and focuses only on the foreigners. What our glorious community figures do? Insulting and author and call him "shitter" while admitting not reading the article. Then slowly start saying "It was not my intention"

"IT IS AN HONEST MISTAKE"...

Now the whole twitter evolved and everyone joining their own sides and calling each other out over a tweet... A FUCKING TWEET!

And the drama continues tonight on twitter...




These are the kind of people supposedly representing our scene...
mfw people who never followed BW speak about sAviOr as if they know anything... -___-''''
TL+ Member
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28528 Posts
January 24 2016 19:04 GMT
#460
On January 25 2016 03:58 Arvendilin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2016 03:55 Penev wrote:
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote:
Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO.

https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425

Nah, he just means to say Spain and Brazil are the best nations in football so should be able to send more teams and the continent of Asia sucks so should be excluded (to make room for the extra teams the best are sending), sarcastically of course. But yeah, these analogies aren't helping much xD

Lets be honest, he's just salty the Netherlands didn't qualify for the EuroCup and fears that if it gets unlocked they'd never get into the worldcup looking at their level of play

I'm one of them

D':

But you're probably right
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Prev 1 21 22 23 24 25 28 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
00:00
The 5.4k Patch Clash #17
CranKy Ducklings74
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech97
ROOTCatZ 61
RuFF_SC2 17
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5487
Artosis 750
910 39
NaDa 16
Terrorterran 1
Dota 2
monkeys_forever697
League of Legends
Doublelift3503
JimRising 519
Counter-Strike
taco 722
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang01006
hungrybox815
Mew2King69
Other Games
gofns13576
tarik_tv9633
summit1g8582
Liquid`RaSZi1234
Maynarde124
ViBE53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1306
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream47
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• EnkiAlexander 50
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP10
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 17m
Afreeca Starleague
9h 17m
Jaedong vs Light
Wardi Open
10h 17m
Monday Night Weeklies
15h 17m
Replay Cast
23h 17m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 9h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 9h
Snow vs Flash
WardiTV Invitational
1d 10h
SHIN vs Nicoract
Solar vs Nice
GSL
2 days
Classic vs Cure
Maru vs Rogue
GSL
3 days
SHIN vs Zoun
ByuN vs herO
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
OSC
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Escore
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Zoun vs Ryung
Lambo vs ShoWTimE
Replay Cast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
SHIN vs Bunny
ByuN vs Shameless
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Krystianer vs TriGGeR
Cure vs Rogue
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Zoun
Clem vs Lambo
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-02
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W6
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Escore Tournament S2: W7
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.