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On January 24 2016 21:58 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote:On January 24 2016 20:52 Zealously wrote:On January 24 2016 19:56 Musicus wrote:
lmao, they are making clickbait out of stu's work :/ I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article  Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. I also definitely get the feeling that some people are almost trying to be offended. Both Nathanias and Apollo essentially shit on stu's entire writing career (or at least his writing ability) on Twitter, and I'd expect them to at least read with two eyes before getting upset.
I think they don't even realise who wrote this. How often did they say on stream that people should check the TL article on this or that before and how good they are.
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On January 24 2016 22:08 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 21:58 Zealously wrote:On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote:On January 24 2016 20:52 Zealously wrote:I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. I also definitely get the feeling that some people are almost trying to be offended. Both Nathanias and Apollo essentially shit on stu's entire writing career (or at least his writing ability) on Twitter, and I'd expect them to at least read with two eyes before getting upset. I think they don't even realise who wrote this. How often did they say on stream that people should check the TL article on this or that before and how good they are.
I don't think they read the whole article. Especially Apollo comes off as a condescending asshole whenever he talks about the new WCS and the Korean scene on Twitter.
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Poor Stu, getting completely attacked by people who don't even know the context of the article; nor did they even fucking bother to read it.
Then again most of the people who attacked the article on twitter have their livelihoods which depend on WCS welfare. so all in all, i can comfortable say that blizzard is absolutely appalling in the way they do things. now the community is taking the backlash of their poor decision making.
i encourage people to actually read the article instead of getting twisted panties over a tweet
I don't think they read the whole article. Especially Apollo comes off as a condescending asshole whenever he talks about the new WCS and the Korean scene on Twitter.
context?
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On January 24 2016 22:15 Incognoto wrote:
Poor Stu, getting completely attacked by people who don't even know the context of the article; nor did they even fucking bother to read it.
Then again most of the people who attacked the article on twitter have their livelihoods which depend on WCS welfare. so all in all, i can comfortable say that blizzard is absolutely appalling in the way they do things. now the community is taking the backlash of their poor decision making.
i encourage people to actually read the article instead of getting twisted panties over a tweet
Yeah it really sucks; certainly doesn't help how disgustingly clickbait-y the ESPN twitter made it sound when they linked it.
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On January 24 2016 22:08 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 21:58 Zealously wrote:On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote:On January 24 2016 20:52 Zealously wrote:I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. I also definitely get the feeling that some people are almost trying to be offended. Both Nathanias and Apollo essentially shit on stu's entire writing career (or at least his writing ability) on Twitter, and I'd expect them to at least read with two eyes before getting upset. I think they don't even realise who wrote this. How often did they say on stream that people should check the TL article on this or that before and how good they are.
People say all sorts of stupid things when they feel their livelihood is threatened. Those two have a big investment in the foreign scene, I can understand why they would get upset when they feel, wrongly, that it is under attack.
They should however be able to see the situation clearly. The system might help them, I say might because I'm not sure the long term effect of sacrificing Korea for the foreign scene will be positive for either, but it is hurting others. No the system alone is not the reason for a decline in Starcrafts populrity, it is not even the main reason, and neither does the article say so. It is just one more hurdle in front of potential korean players.
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On January 24 2016 22:15 Incognoto wrote:Poor Stu, getting completely attacked by people who don't even know the context of the article; nor did they even fucking bother to read it. Then again most of the people who attacked the article on twitter have their livelihoods which depend on WCS welfare. so all in all, i can comfortable say that blizzard is absolutely appalling in the way they do things. now the community is taking the backlash of their poor decision making. i encourage people to actually read the article instead of getting twisted panties over a tweet Show nested quote +I don't think they read the whole article. Especially Apollo comes off as a condescending asshole whenever he talks about the new WCS and the Korean scene on Twitter. context?
I agree the system itself is a very poor decision on Blizzards part, but their guilt does not extend to how people react to comments or articles about it.
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See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague)
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If most people "missunderstand" the article then the problem is in the article.
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On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 20:52 Zealously wrote:I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message.
To be fair in BW you wouldn't have anything if you weren't on a team either. The only difference is that you had 1 more starleague a year (though not in the last 2 years).
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On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague)
The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent offline. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece.
Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up (which isn't really happening much atm). Option B is pretty much dead.
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On January 24 2016 22:31 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote:On January 24 2016 20:52 Zealously wrote:I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. To be fair in BW you wouldn't have anything if you weren't on a team either. The only difference is that you had 1 more starleague a year (though not in the last 2 years).
But now Blizzard is involved at it's all part of WCS. They are arguing that they do not want a BW situation, so I think we should improve the system everywhere and make it better for all players. Not just outside of Korea.
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On January 24 2016 22:32 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up. Option B is pretty much dead.
How does IEM/DH help prosper talent in Korea? Only the best or the richest could go there.
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On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague)
If you genuinely want answers and aren't just baiting, here's why:
SK is a very cutthroat environment that's fantastic for taking in talent and producing very skilled players, but it doesn't have enough money for all of these very skilled players; these are the same players that in the past would travel to international events and destroy everyone who does not come from the same environment, that's how good they are. With this new system, they are no longer able to do so, meaning an SC2 progaming career is increasingly less sustainable for these skilled players, because there are fewer and fewer premier tournaments in Korea. The money needs to come from somewhere, and SC2 is not doing as well in Korea as many of you seem to think, or Wolf tweets about, it's just not the case.
So to my mind, and that of others, it's taking away the potential livelihood of many very skilled players and redistributing it to others who are less deserving, simply for an artificial balance of nationalities, which I think is completely wrong.
But this is TL and like 10 people are gonna jump and be like "nuh uh foreigners can be good too [insert person who literally trained in Korea for 6 months and played in the gsl and/or progleague] see?" and other asinine bullshit that i cant be fucked to respond to.
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On January 24 2016 22:34 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 22:32 Elentos wrote:On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up. Option B is pretty much dead. How does IEM/DH help prosper talent in Korea? Only the best or the richest could go there.
I talk about it in the 2nd paragraph. They open up lineup spots in Proleague. They force teams to field other players than the ones they field every week. In 2015 Proleague IEM Katowice was the only thing that forced KT to deviate from fielding Flash/Life/Stats/TY/Zest every week, for example. It was one of the few times CJ didn't field herO and Jin Air didn't field Maru.
Plus there's always a chance someone unexpected goes through the online qualifiers, I do seem to recall upsets happening.
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On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague)
Why would there be a insentive for proleague teams to foster and pay talent which have zero competitions to compete in? They allready have big enough squads for proleague, if they compete in gsl they are just additional competition to their existing players. I sincerly doubt it is even remotly economically viable for them to pay a living wage to players without any competitions to compete in.
If those players could compete and get money and torunament experience it might be possible but Blizzard denied them that possibility.
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On January 24 2016 22:34 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 22:32 Elentos wrote:On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up. Option B is pretty much dead. How does IEM/DH help prosper talent in Korea? Only the best or the richest could go there.
If you look at the players competing in foreign torunaments over the last years you will quickly notice that this is nto true,
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On January 24 2016 22:32 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent offline. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up (which isn't really happening much atm). Option B is pretty much dead.
If the Kespa teams actually work on it i don't see the problem. You talk about chance to see the new players, why is that even necessary? It's good enough if they train with the team and get better (till they get the chance to play in proleague)
Why don't these newcomers play in olimoleague (or other online cups)? The point is that i really don't think blizzard should be responsible for this in an ecosystem which is already in place for the most part.
Either the ecosystem is interested in finding new players (and there actually are young people interested in playing the game, which might actually be the main problem here) or it is not.
Could there be more done in korea? Yes, but that should be on Kespa/the teams.
On January 24 2016 22:34 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) If you genuinely want answers and aren't just baiting, here's why: SK is a very cutthroat environment that's fantastic for taking in talent and producing very skilled players, but it doesn't have enough money for all of these very skilled players; these are the same players that in the past would travel to international events and destroy everyone who does not come from the same environment, that's how good they are. With this new system, they are no longer able to do so, meaning an SC2 progaming career is increasingly less sustainable for these skilled players, because there are fewer and fewer premier tournaments in Korea. The money needs to come from somewhere, and SC2 is not doing as well in Korea as many of you seem to think, or Wolf tweets about, it's just not the case. So to my mind, and that of others, it's taking away the potential livelihood of many very skilled players and redistributing it to others who are less deserving, simply for an artificial balance of nationalities, which I think is completely wrong. But this is TL and like 10 people are gonna jump and be like "nuh uh foreigners can be good too [insert person who literally trained in Korea for 6 months and played in the gsl and/or progleague] see?" and other asinine bullshit that i cant be fucked to respond to.
You talk about players which are already progamers, it's more about new players though (which would never be able to travel to these foreign events in the first place)
If Korea isn't interested in sc2 to the extent that we can have teams with 15 players each, then that's the sad reality. I don't think blizzard has to do even more (they pretty much already sponsor all of korea ...), the scene has to adapt in this case.
Which means: Less players overall.
That sucks for anybody who loves korean sc2 (let me be clear here, i am one of those  ), but that's the reality we have to deal with.
On January 24 2016 22:45 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:
See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea".
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves.
The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes.
I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) Why would there be a insentive for proleague teams to foster and pay talent which have zero competitions to compete in? They allready have big enough squads for proleague, if they compete in gsl they are just additional competition to their existing players. I sincerly doubt it is even remotly economically viable for them to pay a living wage to players without any competitions to compete in. If those players could compete and get money and torunament experience it might be possible but Blizzard denied them that possibility.
What do you mean? If players retire from proleague squads it should be natural to replace them, no? There will be a point where korean sc2 teams need new players for proleague alone, if that isn't the case right now because the scene simply is too small, then so be it i guess.
Some may argue that blizzard is already artificially creating and keeping the scene, i simply find it very naive and irrational to argue that they should do even more, especially when Kespa/the teams could do more themselves.
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Holy smokes. I don't wanna be in stuchiu's skin now. One of the best if not the best SC2 community writers is being crapped on by two of the leading casters only because ESPN made a clickbaiting tweet. I hope it doesn't discourage stu from writing as much as he does.
And he deserves apologies from Apollo and especially Nathanias.
I'm really appalled now because both Apollo and Nate are among my favourite casters :/
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He can be a great writer even the best.. but first SC2 article being negative isn't good no matter how you spin it,
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On January 24 2016 23:37 corydoras wrote:
Holy smokes. I don't wanna be in stuchiu's skin now. One of the best if not the best SC2 community writers is being crapped on by two of the leading casters only because ESPN made a clickbaiting tweet. I hope it doesn't discourage stu from writing as much as he does.
And he deserves apologies from Apollo and especially Nathanias.
I'm really appalled now because both Apollo and Nate are among my favourite casters :/
Did Nathanias say anything else than just calling the article awful? Like why? Just bashing does no good.
I enjoyed the article btw, you write very well Stuchiu!
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EPT
