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On January 04 2016 07:40 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote:
So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners... Why? Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario. But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think.
7 top8
3 top5
1 top4
1 top3
1 Major Tournament title in early WoL
2 GSL participations (first two GSLs)
more price money than Idra, Jinro, Bunny and probably others on the list
9 consecutive WCS Premier seasons, i.e. all of them. Don't know how you can say his WCS results were up and down, because then literally everyone else's were too because they didn't even qualify everytime.
He is probably top3 or top5 when it comes to the number of deep Premier runs, which doesn't even count the consistency with which he qualified and placed top12 or top16, the only thing he doesn't have is a finals/championship.
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55566 Posts
On January 04 2016 07:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 07:40 Elentos wrote:On January 04 2016 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote:
So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners... Why? Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario. But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think. 7 top8 3 top5 1 top4 1 top3 1 Major Tournament title in early WoL 2 GSL participations (first two GSLs) more price money than Idra, Jinro, Bunny and probably others on the list 9 consecutive WCS Premier seasons, i.e. all of them. Don't know how you can say his WCS results were up and down, because then literally everyone else's were too because they didn't even qualify everytime. He is probably top3 or top5 when it comes to the number of deep Premier runs, which doesn't even count the consistency with which he qualified and placed top12 or top16, the only thing he doesn't have is a finals/championship.
What I meant by the WCS remark is that he was having drastic shifts in form a lot. Sometimes top 8, other times RO32. This year he had that group where he went from getting completely owned on 1 day to crushing iaguz in the rematch on the next. Like, it looks consistent from the outside because he got into every season but internally it's much more fluctuating.
I love TLO but I can see how there wouldn't be space on this list for him despite all he did in his career. Especially since he never won anything that big.
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I don't think you should count earnings at all really, that would just minimalize the impact of early accomplishments so much. For example, Huk got fucking 5k for WINNING an MLG in which he defeated Thestc, MKP, MC etc, whereas today that is what you would get for getting into premier league
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France12907 Posts
IdrA higher than both VortiX and Nerchio? Or even higher than Jinro?
He had big mouth about imbalances but during early GSL worse results than Jinro and he beat a few koreans when zerg was utterly strong, meh.
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On January 04 2016 07:41 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Suprise top5:
5 - @liquidret
4 - Select
3 - Xigua
2 - Bly
1 - Firecake
no no no no, just no.
No surprise list without WhiteRa !
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your Country52797 Posts
On January 04 2016 07:59 Aocowns wrote:
I don't think you should count earnings at all really, that would just minimalize the impact of early accomplishments so much. For example, Huk got fucking 5k for WINNING an MLG in which he defeated Thestc, MKP, MC etc, whereas today that is what you would get for getting into premier league
I don't believe that earnings are actually considered here.
Edit:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/482944-the-process-of-creating-the-top-15-greatest-list
The first step was to take out criteria that I considered irrelevant in the making of the lists. Those criteria were:
Money won
Online Tournaments/Qualifiers
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On January 04 2016 08:19 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
Are you trying to say that in the early seasons of GSL, terran was not favoured vs zerg?
Do you understand what "foreign" mean?
just failed to see how that was relevant whatsoever in the context of games in korea
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On January 04 2016 08:20 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 08:19 Hider wrote:
Are you trying to say that in the early seasons of GSL, terran was not favoured vs zerg?
Do you understand what "foreign" mean? just failed to see how that was relevant whatsoever in the context of games in korea
Okay, reread it again, slightly misread it, my bad.
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Has foreigner terran EVER been favored in anything? List of foreigner terrans who won anything notable:
thorzain
bunny
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On January 04 2016 08:22 HugoBallzak wrote:
Has foreigner terran EVER been favored in anything? List of foreigner terrans who won anything notable:
thorzain
bunny
Marinelord, as of like an hour ago
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On January 04 2016 07:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 07:40 Elentos wrote:On January 04 2016 07:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote:
So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners... Why? Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario. But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think. 7 top8 3 top5 1 top4 1 top3 1 Major Tournament title in early WoL 2 GSL participations (first two GSLs) more price money than Idra, Jinro, Bunny and probably others on the list 9 consecutive WCS Premier seasons, i.e. all of them. Don't know how you can say his WCS results were up and down, because then literally everyone else's were too because they didn't even qualify everytime. He is probably top3 or top5 when it comes to the number of deep Premier runs, which doesn't even count the consistency with which he qualified and placed top12 or top16, the only thing he doesn't have is a finals/championship.
I guess the problem for TLO is probably that he just never was a top 3-5 top foreigner at any point in time (besides maybe early WOL).
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On January 04 2016 08:22 HugoBallzak wrote:
Has foreigner terran EVER been favored in anything? List of foreigner terrans who won anything notable:
thorzain
bunny
I mean that was always my initial point; that even though Korean terrans continued to perform very well in 2011, foreign terrans didn't, and thus I wouldn't give extra credit to a Zerg or protoss relative to a terran player.
But yeh, when we are talking about Jinro's 2010/very early 2011 results, I think its fair to discredit his results sligthly in favor of racial imbalance.
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On January 04 2016 08:22 HugoBallzak wrote:
Has foreigner terran EVER been favored in anything? List of foreigner terrans who won anything notable:
thorzain
bunny
Princess-ilovealtaria-special-light-shofu-NoNge-CuteAngel-Memory-Kitty-Terran-Major-WinDy-Britney-FUCKING-JUANITO-LOPEZ
One day, mark my words. He will regain the hype he had, and he will win something for the glory of Mexico and Copa América
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On January 04 2016 06:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 05:40 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So top 5 from here has to be
5. Scarlett
4. Snute
3. Huk
2. Naniwa
1. Stephano Agreed, unless they put Snute ahead of HuK... but HuK should still definitely be ahead of Scarlett, and I can't think of anyone else besides these 5 who are deserving of the Top 5.
huk above snute is legit, i agree with SGTK
also stuchiuu said it was the hardest part for him and i understand, since chosing between mana and nerchio has been tough i suppose
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On January 04 2016 07:37 t3tsubo wrote:
Sepaking fo the Marinelord 5-0, I'm sad QXC won't make the list even though the pull off the first foreigner vs korea sc2 all kill.
I think that achievement is still vastly overrated. It should be noted for what it is: A foreigner terran beating Mvp in bo1 and not losing a few additional games to weak opponents. But the rest of the series (BBi, dreamerTT and horror) could have been the early rounds of a Go4. If IM would have taken that match seriously and send their whole real team out (Nestea, Losira, Yonghwa, YoDa and korean Happy in addition to Mvp), that match would have ended very differently and everybody knew that back then.
Don't get me wrong, a foreigner terran defeating Mvp is something, that should be noted, especially in 2011, so in combination with the "easy" wins I'd rate it about as high as GoOdy 2-0 MMA or Sjow 2-1 Life(maybe a slight bit higher) and probably higher than some of the TSL 3 upsets (GoOdy 2-1 Nestea, Adelscott 2-0 Mvp) . But for example DIMAGA ending Nesteas undefeated ZvZ-streak was a much bigger thing back then. Also keep in mind that in the same season of GSTL ThorZaIN and Fenix both did get tripple kills against partially more established players. (Just naming upsets here, ofc. a few other results were more impressive, but also more expected).
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France12907 Posts
On January 04 2016 09:14 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 07:37 t3tsubo wrote:
Sepaking fo the Marinelord 5-0, I'm sad QXC won't make the list even though the pull off the first foreigner vs korea sc2 all kill. I think that achievement is still vastly overrated. It should be noted for what it is: A foreigner terran beating Mvp in bo1 and not losing a few additional games to weak opponents. But the rest of the series (BBi, dreamerTT and horror) could have been the early rounds of a Go4. If IM would have taken that match seriously and send their whole real team out (Nestea, Losira, Yonghwa, YoDa and korean Happy in addition to Mvp), that match would have ended very differently and everybody knew that back then. Don't get me wrong, a foreigner terran defeating Mvp is something, that should be noted, especially in 2011, so in combination with the "easy" wins I'd rate it about as high as GoOdy 2-0 MMA or Sjow 2-1 Life(maybe a slight bit higher) and probably higher than some of the TSL 3 upsets (GoOdy 2-1 Nestea, Adelscott 2-0 Mvp) . But for example DIMAGA ending Nesteas undefeated ZvZ-streak was a much bigger thing back then. Also keep in mind that in the same season of GSTL ThorZaIN and Fenix both did get tripple kills against partially more established players. (Just naming upsets here, ofc. a few other results were more impressive, but also more expected).
Adel Mvp was incredibly funny (Mvp got his reaper surrounded by probes and stuff like that) because koreans weren't used at all to lag back then.
It's not even an achievement.
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Cool write up. I would have swapped Idra and Nerchio, but other than that, cool!
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On January 04 2016 09:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 09:14 Xoronius wrote:On January 04 2016 07:37 t3tsubo wrote:
Sepaking fo the Marinelord 5-0, I'm sad QXC won't make the list even though the pull off the first foreigner vs korea sc2 all kill. I think that achievement is still vastly overrated. It should be noted for what it is: A foreigner terran beating Mvp in bo1 and not losing a few additional games to weak opponents. But the rest of the series (BBi, dreamerTT and horror) could have been the early rounds of a Go4. If IM would have taken that match seriously and send their whole real team out (Nestea, Losira, Yonghwa, YoDa and korean Happy in addition to Mvp), that match would have ended very differently and everybody knew that back then. Don't get me wrong, a foreigner terran defeating Mvp is something, that should be noted, especially in 2011, so in combination with the "easy" wins I'd rate it about as high as GoOdy 2-0 MMA or Sjow 2-1 Life(maybe a slight bit higher) and probably higher than some of the TSL 3 upsets (GoOdy 2-1 Nestea, Adelscott 2-0 Mvp) . But for example DIMAGA ending Nesteas undefeated ZvZ-streak was a much bigger thing back then. Also keep in mind that in the same season of GSTL ThorZaIN and Fenix both did get tripple kills against partially more established players. (Just naming upsets here, ofc. a few other results were more impressive, but also more expected). Adel Mvp was incredibly funny (Mvp got his reaper surrounded by probes and stuff like that) because koreans weren't used at all to lag back then. It's not even an achievement.
MVP's TvP was also really bad for a long period as well. I think he first got it fixed until he beat Naniwa.
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EPT
