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Canada8157 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aLdVAhv.jpg)
banner by Existor
We’ve just published a new Balance test map titled OrbitalShipyard (3.0.5 Balance v1.0). We’ve created this test map in order to explore burrowed and unburrowed units being in the same sub-group, and having two separate hotkeys for Burrow and Unburrow. We’ve also included bug fixes to the Disruptor and to the Dusk Towers map. We encourage you to test out these changes - to do so, just go to Multiplayer, and navigate to Custom. The new test map will be at the top of the list. We look forward to hearing your feedback and seeing how these changes affect the game, and please remember that none of these changes are final.
Balance Testing Extension ModWe’ve also updated the Extension Mod for balance testing, so that you can play around with these changes on a variety of maps. Those of you who are interested in trying out the Extension Mod can do the following to get started: - Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu
- Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner
- Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen
- Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind these potential changes, you can check out Senior Designer David Kim's Community Feedback Update. We’d like to remind you that feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above. As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to share your feedback!
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
But there are no balance changes...
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United Kingdom20308 Posts
yeah no balance change lol
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your deduction is short sighted.
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where is disruptor vs disruptor boring fix?
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United Kingdom20308 Posts
On December 01 2015 07:39 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
your deduction is short sighted.
It's just funny that they use the word "Balance" six times when it's QOL fixing
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I think it's too hasty to call for balance action. Though I am indeed already sick of disruptors wars, both to play AND to watch.
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United Kingdom20308 Posts
On December 01 2015 07:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I think it's too hasty to call for balance action. Though I am indeed already sick of disruptors wars, both to play AND to watch.
Used to play stargate (into carrier) PvP but they nerfed them to unplayability, much worse than HOTS now. Longer build times (chronoboost helps by 15% instead of 50%), 50 less health.
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What has it been, 20 days or so? They could wait a month at least.
BUT......
If it means disruptor and the wars with it could change/be improve on, then I am all for it. Is I see it, the disruptor is a reusable bane for P. Nothing wrong, but could be changed.
Plus other stuff  .
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On December 01 2015 08:04 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I think it's too hasty to call for balance action. Though I am indeed already sick of disruptors wars, both to play AND to watch. Used to play stargate (into carrier) PvP but they nerfed them to unplayability, much worse than HOTS now. Longer build times (chronoboost helps by 15% instead of 50%), 50 less health.
50 less health ? I wasn't aware of that.
EDIT : just checked, it's silly. The unit is indeed even less viable than in HotS...
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4713 Posts
I'm pretty sure there are some things in the balance or design department that could already use a tweak, yes even now only 20 days after release.
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On December 01 2015 08:14 Destructicon wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are some things in the balance or design department that could already use a tweak, yes even now only 20 days after release.
I'm torn on that. We had close to no high level data about the game so I'm really unsure the time is right for tweaks. Though I do remember they said they would take measures very quickly in the early post-release days -as if the game was in a prolonged beta state- and we haven't seen that yet.
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where is the bunker change?
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The might of Blizzard Entertainment came up with this loooooooooooooooool WTF ?! What?
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We hereby call you to the mighty action of trying different shortcuts for burrowing and unburrowing units.
Now that, my friends, is a change that is sure to renew global interest in SC2.
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United Kingdom20308 Posts
On December 01 2015 08:11 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 08:04 Cyro wrote:On December 01 2015 07:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I think it's too hasty to call for balance action. Though I am indeed already sick of disruptors wars, both to play AND to watch. Used to play stargate (into carrier) PvP but they nerfed them to unplayability, much worse than HOTS now. Longer build times (chronoboost helps by 15% instead of 50%), 50 less health. 50 less health ? I wasn't aware of that. EDIT : just checked, it's silly. The unit is indeed even less viable than in HotS...
Was using air styles vs zerg and vs P in mid-lategame thinking everything looked fine aside from Release Interceptor and then they made the first 6 carriers take ~30-40% longer and have 50 less health in patches
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In sheer unit strength, I cant complain about carriers, they are incredibly strong. Much stronger than n Hots.
Id trade 50 health for the release interceptor ability any day - which allows for much easier harrassment and engages when outnumbered (use it at the start, and carriers will actually reproduce interceptors even if they dont lose any.
Adepts are the Perfect supplement for them, they soak up and deal a lot of damage to hydras, marines - which used to be the original problems.
Add in pylon overcharge and its much easier to get to than in HOTS
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United Kingdom20308 Posts
But why is RI even a thing? They added this fairly abusive behavior to carriers and then removed a ton of base stats so that you have to use the ability to even be on par (well, sub-par.. since the meta has shifted from a lot of air vs zerg to basically none overnight).
It's not fun to play with or against and adds a lot less micro than simpy having the button tell your interceptors to deploy and/or move somewhere without losing control over them, sacrificing them, gaining the ability to build more etc.
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This is what drives me crazy sometimes... if there is a damn BUG in the game, WHY don't they fix it ASAP as it should be? Why do they wait to put other things to fix bugs? Aish...
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Anyone else find it ironic that a swarmhost is the unit depicted. Dead unit.
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This is why no one plays the balance test maps because they do minute changes that high level players wouldnt waste their time with. These changes are bug fixes and QOL fixes, not substantial changes that need to be tested.
Blizzard sometimes, man. They start to show some semblance of dedication to testing, then release a test map every two months with changes that nobody cares about.
If they want to test balance changes, do stuff that tweaks substantial, core parts of the game, units, or statistics. Does not matter if those changes might be overboard or not completely researched internally, but at least put it out there for high level players to test, because right now I'm confident no pro/GM/masters player will touch this map for more than one game (if at all) just to verify how these changes feel mechanically and make sure the bug is actually fixed, which in some cases it ends up not.
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On December 01 2015 07:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I think it's too hasty to call for balance action. Though I am indeed already sick of disruptors wars, both to play AND to watch.
Did you feel the same way about Colossi I hope?
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So wild! People were right when they told me that after beta blizzard will surely continue to try crazy patches! Can't wait for the next sick testmap where they might fundamentally change how the marine-footwork looks like while stimming!
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Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine.
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On December 01 2015 14:58 baabaa wrote:
Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine.
Exactly. Read: Everything is fine.
No, Blizzard, everything is not fine.
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Seriously? Balance test map to test separating burrow and unburrow? Are they really pretending that hard that they are working? WTF IS THIS SHIT?
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this looks like it is the "changes to core mechanics" switch they are pulling now (from blizzcon panel line serving to tell community they have listened and are still willing to fix core mechanics, now they use this so that people who have started following from blizzcon go "ah I see" and the more "hardcore" community is separated and dealt with from that). There could possibly be if they (head of management) are really bad about it a strategy of putting people against each other even in discussions, hoping this population who followed from blizzcon will attack people who "complain" now and praise "blizzard", justifying more "thx for positivity" and complying with this population's proposals further mainstream approach to game etc.
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Lol, why is everyone so upset? They've been talking about testing this change for a little while, now they are putting out a test map. They aren't saying "everything is fine with balance", they are waiting for more information. JUST BECAUSE YOU LOST SOME LADDER MATCHES DOESN'T MEAN A BALANCE PATCH WILL COME SAVE YOU
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 01 2015 15:04 ledarsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 14:58 baabaa wrote:
Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine. Exactly. Read: Everything is fine. No, Blizzard, everything is not fine.
Do people get a kick out of saying these things? When Blizzard do or do not do something, do you feel like you accomplish something by making posts like this? I mean, the fact that they're putting bug fixed and minute changes on a test map might be questionable, but I don't really see how it indicates what you seem to think it does. Every time Blizzard rush a change, they get just as much shit and potentially much more far-reaching consequences. Should they discard all caution?
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On December 01 2015 16:14 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 15:04 ledarsi wrote:On December 01 2015 14:58 baabaa wrote:
Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine. Exactly. Read: Everything is fine. No, Blizzard, everything is not fine. Do people get a kick out of saying these things? When Blizzard do or do not do something, do you feel like you accomplish something by making posts like this? I mean, the fact that they're putting bug fixed and minute changes on a test map might be questionable, but I don't really see how it indicates what you seem to think it does. Every time Blizzard rush a change, they get just as much shit and potentially much more far-reaching consequences. Should they discard all caution?
settle down, forums are made to be shitposted on. What you read on forums represents the community's reaction, regardless if you want it or not.
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Is this only the F2 disruptor selecting Nova bug or does this include the issue with Disruptors smartcasting different than every other unit in the game which makes Disruptor v Lurker incredibly frustrating?
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No I do not get a kick out of pointing out when corporations or companies do things for business reasons rather than for the reasons they should be doing them. I would rather see productive things happening that I would be enthused about. But when it happens, if nobody points it out then they will keep doing it because it would be working.
This smells like painting a smiley face on a pet project that looks helpful, which both management and the less savvy public are going to look on as progress without looking much further. Even the "Call to Action" language looks contrived to sound active and engaged and productive while neither doing nor accomplishing anything of consequence.
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On December 01 2015 16:36 ledarsi wrote:
No I do not get a kick out of pointing out when corporations or companies do things for business reasons rather than for the reasons they should be doing them. I would rather see productive things happening that I would be enthused about. But when it happens, if nobody points it out then they will keep doing it because it would be working.
This smells like painting a smiley face on a pet project that looks helpful, which both management and the less savvy public are going to look on as progress without looking much further. Even the "Call to Action" language looks contrived to sound active and engaged and productive while neither doing nor accomplishing anything of consequence.
+1 agree if we are right writing things like this is community defense
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what exactly is the disruptor bug?
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On December 01 2015 16:44 johax wrote:
what exactly is the disruptor bug?
Enemy disruptorshots targeted on one of you units will cause all of your units to aggro at that disruptor, even when they are out of aggro range or unit sight range. This can lead to a point where your complete army automatically A-moves on a firing disruptor and thus, if you dont stop them, they can be easily picked off.
To the Showtime vs PartinG PvP meta:
I cant understand how you not loved it (as a viewer). It might be a pain in the ass to play but for me, as terran player, it was the best matchup to watch during the play-offs. Yes, one player can lose his army in a very small moment of miscontroll/nocontroll, the fights on the other hand have been very long, with constant aggro, there was no turtle, both players had to expand, both players traded over minutes small bits of their army, every shot could mean the end but still the fight went for minutes, much longer then Lazer Warz. Comparing it with swarmhost vs swarmhost is really a strong claim, as no player turtled up, both had to make moves and create space for expansion, both players constant danced around with their armys instead of rallypointing locust waves against each other. Every lost unit costs something and with the movement from Stalker-Disruptor to Stalker-Disruptor-Tempest the matchup develops after certain gametime.
Also not enough meta is discovered yet, maybe dont go tempest, but amass void-rays in the background, while holding ground with disruptor-stalker long enough? Mass Warp-Prism drop play? Everything seems to be possible while the main fighting is extremly tense with every shot could be the end.
For me, it was a really sick series and PvP showed to be a really cool matchup. Please no nerf to get Lazer-Warzs back and I am happy, that Blizzard just didnt started with a large balance test map with multi changes "from what we learned from dreamhack". It will take at least a single season of GSL/SSL or the first round robin phase of ProLeague to even find out, what has to be changed.
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No mention of the bunker change
God dammit!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 01 2015 18:06 Clonester wrote:Enemy disruptorshots targeted on one of you units will cause all of your units to aggro at that disruptor, even when they are out of aggro range or unit sight range. This can lead to a point where your complete army automatically A-moves on a firing disruptor and thus, if you dont stop them, they can be easily picked off. To the Showtime vs PartinG PvP meta: I cant understand how you not loved it (as a viewer). It might be a pain in the ass to play but for me, as terran player, it was the best matchup to watch during the play-offs. Yes, one player can lose his army in a very small moment of miscontroll/nocontroll, the fights on the other hand have been very long, with constant aggro, there was no turtle, both players had to expand, both players traded over minutes small bits of their army, every shot could mean the end but still the fight went for minutes, much longer then Lazer Warz. Comparing it with swarmhost vs swarmhost is really a strong claim, as no player turtled up, both had to make moves and create space for expansion, both players constant danced around with their armys instead of rallypointing locust waves against each other. Every lost unit costs something and with the movement from Stalker-Disruptor to Stalker-Disruptor-Tempest the matchup develops after certain gametime. Also not enough meta is discovered yet, maybe dont go tempest, but amass void-rays in the background, while holding ground with disruptor-stalker long enough? Mass Warp-Prism drop play? Everything seems to be possible while the main fighting is extremly tense with every shot could be the end. For me, it was a really sick series and PvP showed to be a really cool matchup. Please no nerf to get Lazer-Warzs back and I am happy, that Blizzard just didnt started with a large balance test map with multi changes "from what we learned from dreamhack". It will take at least a single season of GSL/SSL or the first round robin phase of ProLeague to even find out, what has to be changed.
After 3 minutes it was just the same boring thing again and again. It's like watching a comedy movie. If the joke is all the time the same one, it is boring in the end.
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Blizzards attempts at transparency and dialogue is reaching ridiculous levels when they are suggesting a call to action to resolve the addition of new interface features. This is probably simply to generate attention around the change.
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On December 01 2015 18:35 Penev wrote:
No mention of the bunker change
God dammit!
All my plans are ruined.
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This was purposed by the community on reddit I think, blizzard has already said they ain't sure how different level of skill reacts to it so a test map makes perfect sense
It's actually depressing to see how we get more on topic discussion about this on reddit than tl.
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I do not get why everybody is angry. I mean this needs to be tested. There are people who have concerns about this burrow change and do not want it to change. They like to ctrl+click burrowed roaches to control them. This is probably not possible anymore if there is only one subgroup. On reddit there were several heated discussions about this. With this test map both groups, the ones who want this change and the ones who do not, can test it without theory crafting and see whether their worries or hopes are justified. Of course they could have waited with this for the next "real" test scenario but then Blizz would get flamed because they waited with this minor thing so long. (IMO it is much to early to have one before first GSL.)
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 01 2015 16:24 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 16:14 Zealously wrote:On December 01 2015 15:04 ledarsi wrote:On December 01 2015 14:58 baabaa wrote:
Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine. Exactly. Read: Everything is fine. No, Blizzard, everything is not fine. Do people get a kick out of saying these things? When Blizzard do or do not do something, do you feel like you accomplish something by making posts like this? I mean, the fact that they're putting bug fixed and minute changes on a test map might be questionable, but I don't really see how it indicates what you seem to think it does. Every time Blizzard rush a change, they get just as much shit and potentially much more far-reaching consequences. Should they discard all caution? settle down, forums are made to be shitposted on. What you read on forums represents the community's reaction, regardless if you want it or not.
And I'm criticizing this particular reaction for being shortsighted and narrow-minded. Funny how that works.
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On December 01 2015 20:10 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 16:24 juvenal wrote:On December 01 2015 16:14 Zealously wrote:On December 01 2015 15:04 ledarsi wrote:On December 01 2015 14:58 baabaa wrote:
Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine. Exactly. Read: Everything is fine. No, Blizzard, everything is not fine. Do people get a kick out of saying these things? When Blizzard do or do not do something, do you feel like you accomplish something by making posts like this? I mean, the fact that they're putting bug fixed and minute changes on a test map might be questionable, but I don't really see how it indicates what you seem to think it does. Every time Blizzard rush a change, they get just as much shit and potentially much more far-reaching consequences. Should they discard all caution? settle down, forums are made to be shitposted on. What you read on forums represents the community's reaction, regardless if you want it or not. And I'm criticizing this particular reaction for being shortsighted and narrow-minded. Funny how that works.
Good thing you are an admin and he's not ^^
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 01 2015 20:17 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 20:10 Zealously wrote:On December 01 2015 16:24 juvenal wrote:On December 01 2015 16:14 Zealously wrote:On December 01 2015 15:04 ledarsi wrote:On December 01 2015 14:58 baabaa wrote:
Translation: nothing else needs fixing with more priority than burrow/unburrow. Real translation: we are emphasizing this to try to create the impression that everything else is fine. Exactly. Read: Everything is fine. No, Blizzard, everything is not fine. Do people get a kick out of saying these things? When Blizzard do or do not do something, do you feel like you accomplish something by making posts like this? I mean, the fact that they're putting bug fixed and minute changes on a test map might be questionable, but I don't really see how it indicates what you seem to think it does. Every time Blizzard rush a change, they get just as much shit and potentially much more far-reaching consequences. Should they discard all caution? settle down, forums are made to be shitposted on. What you read on forums represents the community's reaction, regardless if you want it or not. And I'm criticizing this particular reaction for being shortsighted and narrow-minded. Funny how that works. Good thing you are an admin and he's not ^^
That really doesn't have anything to do with this particular pet peeve though; it's not like being angry or upset about Blizzard's direction is against TL rules, I just think it's predictable, stale and illogical when people go up in arms over nothing lol
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On December 01 2015 07:46 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:39 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
your deduction is short sighted. It's just funny that they use the word "Balance" six times when it's QOL fixing
Which can have a direct effect on balance 
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Do we really need a test map for such changes?
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They might as well do a community poll for whether this change should happen or not, would be a fun experiment.
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On December 01 2015 21:36 Timelog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:46 Cyro wrote:On December 01 2015 07:39 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
your deduction is short sighted. It's just funny that they use the word "Balance" six times when it's QOL fixing Which can have a direct effect on balance
That depends in which camp you sit on the opinion what balance is and what difficulty is.
For my part easy to play and strong is the same thing, so I agree with you.
But a lot of people will differentiate between those two somehow and then quality of life --> easier to play is not the same as a balance change.
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But nice to see blizzard still makes core changes to the game after release.
Apparently their talk at blizzcon wasn't just PR.
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I just think its funny that we need a test map for a 2 hotkey burrow setup. ITs not really gamechanging.
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Test results: Awesome change, I think there are a few issues that need to be tweaked but overall better than before.
Here are some notes:
Testing with the following:
Zergling
Baneling
Lurker
Ravager
Roach
Hydra
Queen
Infestor
-Unburrowing becomes a lot more managable, you can have a bunch of units selected, some burrowed and some not, and hit the unburrow key, which will unburrow everything (except Lurkers which is good, and one other case I think is a bug, see below)
-Burrowed units no longer have a different portraits, however, control left clicking a burrowed unit will still only select burrowed units of that kind, so that functionality remains(yay).
-The functionality to select all burrowed units via portraits however, is gone (even in lurkers). This might be ok since the groupings overlap now anyway, but separate portraits would be nice to keep in my opinion
-While having Lurkers as the active sub-group with all other units, hitting burrow will only burrow the Lurkers, this is good as it doesn't mess up lurker micro.
- selecting all units and hitting burrow will burrow all units EXCEPT the Lurker. This is GOOD, because it's treated separately so people won't be accidentally burrowing everything just to put lurkers in the ground.
Some possible bugs/issues:
The ability to unborrow units of different types is strictly dependent on the states of the active sub-group. Meaning if you have a group of Ling/Bling, and some of the zerglings are burrowed, but none of the banelings are, then you CANNOT unburrow the zerglings without tabbing to the subgroup (since banelings take priority over zerglings).
If at least ONE of the banlings IS burrowed however, then the ability becomes active and hitting unburrow will unburrow everything.
This might be fixable by just having the command card always display a grayed out version of the unburrow button for all units.
Swarm Hosts are treated like any other unit, however since they can only attack when burrowed, like the Lurker, I think they should be treated in kind, meaning that burrowing all regular units excludes Lurkers AND SwarmHosts.
I will test more later, but I'm late for work now...
Overall, this is awesome to see. Thank you Blizzard for not being scared to change core mechanics 
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i got my spade what do you need digging up?
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I do not understand? Where is the text about nydus, ravagers, parasitic bomb and ultralisk armour? Do I need to change my browser?
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On December 02 2015 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand? Where is the text about nydus, ravagers, parasitic bomb and ultralisk armour? Do I need to change my browser?
Can you explain this post to me?
I don't understand. Blizzard has a timeframe for when they want to pop the first balance patch. Should they not fix *anything* else until this time? Why is it bad for blizzard to try and improve their game outside of balance?
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This is amazing. I know it's not a huge balance change but it is an enormous quality of life change for zerg players. I haven't used the test map so I don't know if it works as intended, but if it works the same as terran I am all for it. I don't think all the complaining is warranted.
Gaining an extra hotkey is my opinion not a big deal - there are a lot of spare keys on the keyboard. The functionality improvements are really helpful though and definitely worth the drawbacks.
Dasian seems to have covered everything - I agree with him on all his points. The first bug he mentions should definitely be addressed. The second possible issue should be addressed too, if lurkers are treated separately so should swarmhosts because they both attack while burrowed. That's just a consistency thing.
I love the control click still only selecting burrowed units of that kind functionality. It retains the benefits of being able to manage burrowed units separately while improving everything else.
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On December 02 2015 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand? Where is the text about nydus, ravagers, parasitic bomb and ultralisk armour? Do I need to change my browser?
Just your attitude to the game and the other players in it
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Since I can not post in the Bnet forum. Maybe somebody reads it here.
Build a few lings, burrow some. Select all lings. Unburrow hotkey does not work. Clicking works fine. Does not happen with roaches. Can somebody confirm this?
Edit: Even though it showed a hotkey in the command card, it was unbound in the menu. Reassigning the hotkey solved the problem.
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On December 01 2015 10:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 07:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I think it's too hasty to call for balance action. Though I am indeed already sick of disruptors wars, both to play AND to watch. Did you feel the same way about Colossi I hope?
No. Is it politically incorrect to say so ? I don't like volatility, not gonna lie about it. Colossi weren't perfect, but disruptors are just sickening.
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EPT
