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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On August 25 2015 07:13 SuperFanBoy wrote: A famous pro once said "If you're not attacking, you're probably losing". This patch allows us to focus more on attacking. ask rain if he cares if he's attacking.. | ||
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NyxNax
United States227 Posts
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FalconHoof
Canada183 Posts
On August 25 2015 06:26 hitpoint wrote: How does removing the ability to call-down a mule make terrans more aggressive and able to micro better? I just don't see the correlation. It not like larva inject which has to be done at very specific times or you can just die. If you're not spending that time looking at your base pressing buttons to call down mules, you have more time to focus on the map and army movement.... Seemed pretty self-explanatory to me... You can die just as easily in HOTS as a terran if you don't call down a mule and are a little short on that last supply depot to finish your wall, or if you miss that last chrono on your warpgate and the banelings roll into your wall before you could warp in sentries... | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8307 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:10 Charoisaur wrote: There is already a game where you don't have to focus on macro and can put all your attention on unit movement and strategy. It's called LoL. Why do so many people want to turn sc2 into LoL instead of playing the original? Controlling one unit is still vastly different from controlling many units and for many of us controlling armies is significantly more exciting. | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On August 25 2015 07:40 MirrorWorthy wrote: If you're not spending that time looking at your base pressing buttons to call down mules, you have more time to focus on the map and army movement.... Seemed pretty self-explanatory to me... You can die just as easily in HOTS as a terran if you don't call down a mule and are a little short on that last supply depot to finish your wall, or if you miss that last chrono on your warpgate and the banelings roll into your wall before you could warp in sentries... you think it's because of the time it takes to call down mules? really? how much time do you think it takes? If you don't call the mule down right when its available it's not like an inject.. you can still get that mule. unless of course your orbital is maxed energy but the time it takes to call down 4 or 5 mules is so small.. i hardly think there's any huge benefit from removing that. i really don't think the advantage here is the time you gain from not having to call down mules.. that's pretty inconsequential | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On August 25 2015 07:40 MirrorWorthy wrote: If you're not spending that time looking at your base pressing buttons to call down mules, you have more time to focus on the map and army movement.... Seemed pretty self-explanatory to me... It's not though. Outside of the early game, you can bank all the energy and call down mules in 1 second. It's literally nothing like inject which gets harder as the game goes on. The two can't even be compared. Inject is a "macro mechanic" since it takes the place of adding production for zerg. Mules are just steroids for your mineral income. Terrans add depots, barracks, factories and addons. That's their real macro mechanic. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Manual larva injects make TvZ more interesting, because the Zerg player has to choose between injecting larvae and microing versus an aggressive Terran. Smart players will try to pull back, inject, and then go forward to attack again. But good Terran players know this and will try to force multiple engagements simultaneously. Furthermore, a really smart Terran can scan the inject timing and attack when it's about to finish. A zerg player can choose to prioritize his injects above everything else, but if he does that, his creep spread, or something else, probably suffers. All of those interesting tactical maneuvers are gone with automatic macro. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On August 25 2015 07:57 TheDougler wrote: Controlling one unit is still vastly different from controlling many units and for many of us controlling armies is significantly more exciting. Supreme Commander, etc have automated macro with many units. | ||
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virpi
Germany3599 Posts
On August 24 2015 23:55 myRZeth wrote: I DO want Starcraft to be a game about "who can make more stuff". This is what Starcraft is to me. If I wanted more micro I could be playing Warcraft 3. So much this. I love outmacroing opponents while putting up constant pressure and harassment. There's nothing more rewarding than the final moments of obliteration before the opponent has to gg. Even though I enjoy some micro aspects (keeping scouting stuff alive, blink, splitting, pre battle positioning), macro has always been the more interesting part of Starcraft for me. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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xtorn
4060 Posts
Macro changes are difficult to digest, since I feel that there are a lot of excellent arguments on both sides, for both keeping and simplifying them. But overall i guess the game wont lose depth, it will just emphasize different things. So maybe lets go with the change and witness a different Starcraft. Not a worse one, just different. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
Ghosts as a gas dump just makes so much sense and would really increase their visibility in game. It would make them less viable in Mech compositions though but right now I feel that it's a worthwhile trade off. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On August 25 2015 08:37 Djzapz wrote: One question I have now is, how do low level terrans and protoss cope with zerg now? Seems like automatic injects would severely favor zerg at those levels where people were sloppy with injection in the first place... Zerg will be the best race at low levels | ||
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
On August 25 2015 08:29 virpi wrote: So much this. I love outmacroing opponents while putting up constant pressure and harassment. There's nothing more rewarding than the final moments of obliteration before the opponent has to gg. Even though I enjoy some micro aspects (keeping scouting stuff alive, blink, splitting, pre battle positioning), macro has always been the more interesting part of Starcraft for me. If that's true can't you have just as much fun playing versus an AI and just massing up, hell why do you need an opponent? Maybe you should play SimCity or Cities Skylines instead. For me I think the positioning, and decision making aspects are where true skill is shown. People act like macro isn't a thing anymore. You still have to multitask and continue production while you harass and move your army around. You can still outmacro your opponent. | ||
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Corgi
United States408 Posts
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virpi
Germany3599 Posts
On August 25 2015 08:52 thurst0n wrote: Thank you for saying all this. I agree with you. I just hope certain people I keep seeing pop up on the beta chat will take the time to digest this. Some minds don't want to change. If that's true can't you have just as much fun playing versus an AI and just massing up, hell why do you need an opponent? Maybe you should play SimCity or Cities Skylines instead. For me I think the positioning, and decision making aspects are where true skill is shown. People act like macro isn't a thing anymore. You still have to multitask and continue production while you harass and move your army around. You can still outmacro your opponent. You completely misunderstood my post. I don't want mass up mindlessly, I want to OUTPLAY my opponent. Outmacroing him is just a part of that, of course strategy, decision making and micro are also very important. (and I do enjoy them very much.) I don't enjoy playing vs AI, actually I really hate that. I love the challenge of the "real" game. I'm actually quite fond of the new patch, as hitting injects mainly is a mechanical task without any strategical depth. To me, having good macro doesn't only mean that you have more stuff, it also means that you have more of the right stuff. And you can't build the right stuff, if you're playing on auto-pilot. Without the macro mechanics, you still have to build workers constantly, avoid supply blocks and know how your build order works. (transitions, reactions, timings, etc.) PS: I played Cities Skylines and liked it. But without zerg and the possibility to multitask like a madman, it became boring pretty quickly.  | ||
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CometNine
New Zealand87 Posts
On August 25 2015 08:37 Djzapz wrote: One question I have now is, how do low level terrans and protoss cope with zerg now? Seems like automatic injects would severely favor zerg at those levels where people were sloppy with injection in the first place... Assuming you mean Gold and Lower then I can answer this. I play random and so far I have a 100% win rate in PvZ and TvZ lol, bizarrely - my ZvX is really bad... 0% winrate (from 6 games). Two PvZ's I've played yesterday, I've come from behind to win as well. So while these 'sloppy' zergs don't have much to do in the way of injecting, their unit compositions and positioning are probably what causes them to lose. Also, given that they only have base hatcheries and no macro hatcheries, their larvae count isn't that high to continuously be aggressive. TvZ - I've found Hellion/bat, Tank, Cyclone off three bases is enough to hold off most things. I add in liberators if I scout a spire. ZvP - I've died to a Voidray push and proxy oracles followed up by a gateway push off two bases. ZvZ - I've died to a Hydra/Lurker rush (when I was teching to spire) and a ling/bane all-in. ZvT - proxy 2 rax and bunker rush vs hatch first, 3 factory cyclone / hellbat push when I was attempting to take my third. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
On August 24 2015 23:55 myRZeth wrote: I DO want Starcraft to be a game about "who can make more stuff". This is what Starcraft is to me. If I wanted more micro I could be playing Warcraft 3. That is what was said when SC2 first came onto the scene! In fact a lot of hardcore BW fans will still say SC2 is not Starcraft since its too easy to macro and now its more about army positioning etc. Maybe blizzard should remove automining,MBS and all that crap. Make it more like broodwar with its difficulty in macro. The macro-mechanics in SC2 have always been a badly designed bandaid meant to address the easing of the game from broodwar due to all these neat features. It resulted in major imbalances and have resulted in numerous design articles in team liquid itself. Yet adding them still didn't make SC2 macro for 2 of the 3 races any more harder. The last 5 years have proven that the macro mechanics in their current form is not the answer. Its about time that something new was tried. | ||
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KrOeastbound
England59 Posts
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