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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 05 2015 06:22 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:57 Plexa wrote:On May 05 2015 05:42 Barrin wrote:
"In the DH mod, you can actually all-in with very little probes, because 8 probes is just all you need." - MaNa after denying LaLuSh's expansion. Not quite the quote, but words to that effect. Right, that's what I said. What did he say, exactly? We really still need to work on our terms here. 8 probes is now maximum "efficiency", down from 16. But it still takes 24 workers to fully saturate for maximum "income". Actually, you can fit more than 24 in DH, but the gain is negligible (especially past ~28). That was Mana's quote 
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Italy12248 Posts
The thing with going from DH10 to DH9 is that with 10 minerals per trip it's actually really easy to max quickly anyway, meaning that armies grow too quickly for the alternative econ to kick in, as you still max on 3bases.
Im starting to think that the "perfect" model might be DH9, along with something to slow down army growth across the board, but i don't know what that something could be. Looking at macro mechanics alone, just for this one mod, is probably too big of a step. Keep in mind that the idea behind any DH model is to tweak something really simple (it's a single variable in the editor) just to test its consequences in depth, rather than making massive changes across the board (which is more similar to the LotV model).
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United States10890 Posts
Interested to get the replay pack from this, was unable to watch due to work! Thanks for all the hard work TL~
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On May 05 2015 07:03 Teoita wrote:
Im starting to think that the "perfect" model might be DH9, along with something to slow down army growth across the board, but i don't know what that something could be.
Maybe lowering the supply provided by supply buildings/units very slightly?
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Italy12248 Posts
Maybe, that's just an idea, at the end of the day im not a developer so who knows 
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While waiting for the finals I figured to write my opinion on the mod since I've played quite a few games today.
You can feel there's more income once you are 3+ bases, but early game this mod actually helps allins since you can attack with fewer workers (as Protoss for example) or just 2 raxing vs Zerg will give you better economy compared to normal HotS.
I don't really think people will start going 4-5 bases earlier, the problem isn't in the economy I mean sure you have more income and going from 3 to 4 bases will give you ~200-300 more income per minute, but it doesn't justify spreading your bases so much and opening yourself to the potential harass. The only race that would benefit from this mod 3+ bases is Zerg, while Terran and Protoss would benefit early game.
The income difference from going 1 extra base just isn't worth it in the mid game and in my opinion this is pretty much normal HotS and people will use same play styles (allining off 2/3 bases) and allins will become stronger early game.
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Yep. You have to further bend the curve... DH8
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On May 05 2015 07:13 Beastyqt wrote:
While waiting for the finals I figured to write my opinion on the mod since I've played quite a few games today.
You can feel there's more income once you are 3+ bases, but early game this mod actually helps allins since you can attack with fewer workers (as Protoss for example) or just 2 raxing vs Zerg will give you better economy compared to normal HotS.
I don't really think people will start going 4-5 bases earlier, the problem isn't in the economy I mean sure you have more income and going from 3 to 4 bases will give you ~200-300 more income per minute, but it doesn't justify spreading your bases so much and opening yourself to the potential harass. The only race that would benefit from this mod 3+ bases is Zerg, while Terran and Protoss would benefit early game.
The income difference from going 1 extra base just isn't worth it in the mid game and in my opinion this is pretty much normal HotS and people will use same play styles (allining off 2/3 bases) and allins will become stronger early game.
Exactly mirrors my own thoughts. Very much worth considering this analysis imo.
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On May 05 2015 07:29 TheDwf wrote:
Yep. You have to further bend the curve... DH8
And soon we are at DH6 and see that it is not the solution.
You cant fix numbers if the system is broken. And DH is more hyped then useable. A lot of talk does not make a good economy modell if it fails during the playtest. And it fails during the play test.
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I'm going to have to stop watching now so I'll just post my impressions from the few games I saw.
The economy overall feels a bit more interesting, with the midgame benefiting from being stretched out, but the early game saw a lot of strong rushes (basically what Mana, Lalush and Beastyqt said). Also, there seemed to be more of a snowball effect, if you got ahead, especially if you got map control, you could build on your lead much more easily. There weren't that many close games. It must be granted, though, that the sample was tiny and there's no established meta or standard builds.
All in all, this tournament was very helpful in seeing how the economy model works, thanks for all the organizers.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
We'd also be interested in hearing what other participants thought about the mod Thanks beasty/lalush
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Uh sorry, I forgot that it was today, for some reason I thought it was on the 7th May. Woops!
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On May 05 2015 08:00 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:29 TheDwf wrote:
Yep. You have to further bend the curve... DH8 And soon we are at DH6 and see that it is not the solution. You cant fix numbers if the system is broken. And DH is more hyped then useable. A lot of talk does not make a good economy modell if it fails during the playtest. And it fails during the play test.
The playtesting is completely meaningless cause all the balance,macro mechanics and unit design are centered around the hots/wol economy.
Obviously a new economy might not work perfectly with the current unit balance / race balance, that's not shocking at all.
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On May 05 2015 08:00 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:29 TheDwf wrote:
Yep. You have to further bend the curve... DH8 And soon we are at DH6 and see that it is not the solution. You cant fix numbers if the system is broken. And DH is more hyped then useable. A lot of talk does not make a good economy modell if it fails during the playtest. And it fails during the play test.
What you don't understand is that experimenting an economic change in a vacuum has a limited impact to begin with, since it is the basis of the system. Everything would have to be rebalanced around that. Plus there are two different problems to solve:
(1) The economy on 1 base grows too fast;
(2) 48 workers on 5 bases should yield more than 48 workers on 4 bases, which themselves should yield more than 48 workers on 3 bases.
The DH principle simply addresses the last point; that's why you can't get a miracle upon testing, because the first issue triggers way earlier than the second. On one base, DH9 actually accelerates the part that needs to be slowed down (see Beastyqt's posts for the consequences), while slowing down too late/too little. DH8 is superior since it targets the critical zone. At any rate, testing something with a stronger effect is better when you have already difficulties in feeling the real impact.
The actual implementation that you use to get the desired shape of the curve has no importance whatsoever, Blizzard can code it the way they want.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Thanks everyone for playing and watching! Was a fun event I like the mod D:
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I overslept the check in period but I did play a lot of zvt and it felt like I could ever take a third because the Terran either all ined on 2 base or sat on 1 base and build large marine/hellion army which hit early do to dh. Maybe it's becuase I'm bad idk. But there's definetly an early game change.
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when is the next tournament like this? maybe on on eu for once?
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United States7483 Posts
On May 05 2015 07:03 Teoita wrote:
The thing with going from DH10 to DH9 is that with 10 minerals per trip it's actually really easy to max quickly anyway, meaning that armies grow too quickly for the alternative econ to kick in, as you still max on 3bases.
Im starting to think that the "perfect" model might be DH9, along with something to slow down army growth across the board, but i don't know what that something could be. Looking at macro mechanics alone, just for this one mod, is probably too big of a step. Keep in mind that the idea behind any DH model is to tweak something really simple (it's a single variable in the editor) just to test its consequences in depth, rather than making massive changes across the board (which is more similar to the LotV model).
DH9 with FRB!
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Canada2764 Posts
On May 05 2015 08:01 Plexa wrote:We'd also be interested in hearing what other participants thought about the mod Thanks beasty/lalush
I dumpstered a masters player with proxies, 10/10 mod
Seriously though, rushes /did/ seem a bit strong. But then again, I'm way, way too awful to really say much, but big thanks for putting it together and even bigger thanks for letting me shit on people with your model. <3 forevers
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What was the final result of the tournament? The bracket is not updated.
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EPT
