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On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans?
Oh god yes please!
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On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans?
Oh Oh we could start that one right now.
1. Flash
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On February 01 2015 03:37 Ben1500 wrote:
Have people forgotten that taeja nearly won blizzcon, that series versus life easily could have gone either way.
That wasn't the finals, and MMA was playing good enough TvT to take down Bomber, who was considered the best TvT at the time, though to quote MMA Bomber was having an off day. MMA got snubbed pretty bad not even honorable mention. $121K last year--next closest was Bomber at $92K.
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On February 01 2015 03:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Oh Oh we could start that one right now. 1. Flash
Why? I was pretty happy about Flash's year.
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On February 01 2015 03:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Oh Oh we could start that one right now. 1. Flash
That would rather be the "top10 players with the most haters who like to refer to imaginary hords of annoying fanboys who are nowhere to be seen"
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On February 01 2015 03:51 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Oh Oh we could start that one right now. 1. Flash Why? I was pretty happy about Flash's year.
oh... well then nevermind.
1. Scarlett (aka I'm still mad)
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On February 01 2015 03:34 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:29 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 03:21 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 03:10 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:43 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 02:24 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:19 Yonnua wrote:
Every year Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up and teamliquid writers (and many other people) just start going mental and calling him the best player ever. Then when he gets smashed by top tier players at other events they completely ignore it and act as if it never happened. It's crazy.
Players like Maru, Innovation and Bomber have performed on much bigger stages and with greater consistency against the top tier players, but don't get anywhere near as much credit. :/ Yeah like when he edged out Zest 3-0, or edged out soO 3-1, or edged out innovation 3-1. Or maybe you are refering to him getting "smashed" by losing 3-2 to Life twice recently (and lets be real, almost everyone is losing to life right now especially in ZvT) in two of the best series of the year. I know what you mean when you say people overlook his losses, but the way you phrase it passes off his multiple tournament wins as "Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up". Aren't you doing the same thing you claim TL writers are doing? Your view comes off just as biased How is this not exactly what I said? He beats one or two top tier players per event. He barely edges it over people to win events i.e. 4-3 vs Solar & losing to Jim at Shenzhen, 3-2 vs Jaedong & losing to Scarlett/MMA at Homestory Cup, not facing any top tier players at Dreamhack Summer, etc. Then at other tournaments he drops games to Leenock (Dreamhack Winter/Taiwan Open), Flash (3-0 at Homestory Cup), Hyun (WCS), Pigbaby (two different WCS events), Dear/Stardust (ASUS ROG), Major/Hyun (WCS). I'm not claiming he's a bad playing, but saying that he's obviously the best terran of 2014 is crazy while completely ignoring that he lost to random players in loads of the events he played in (even one or two that he won). Acting like he was always undefeatable when he won is ridiculous. Claiming I'm doing the same as the writers is silly because I'm not ignoring data, I'm just using all of the data rather than selecting the little amount that proves that the player I like is the best. I'm also not saying anyone is or isn't the best, I'm saying that calling it so clear cut when other players have had much better performances throughout the year is silly and not backed by data. That tournament that he won by only edging out Solar 4-3 he also 3-0d Zest so I would be curious how you would call that edging someone out. Also, what player HASN'T lost to players that they wouldnt expect them too? Part of the reason that sc2 is so great is that no player is immortal or undefeatable. Also, you trying to discredit his tournament wins in foreign tournaments ignores that NO other player has replicated his results in those tournaments. Innovation (who is also a player i like) tried to live that same way when he went to Acer and didn't NEARLY have the same results as Taeja. I agree that best terran is NOT clear cut, but your initial post baisically said he can barley edge out some top players and only beat "bad" foreign players which Taeja has proven not to be true. TLDR The Best Terran 2014 is by no means clear cut, but claiming that Taeja didn't earn a claim to it, or doesn't deserve to be a candidate (you didn't say that but alot of haters do) is completely stupid. Taeja isn't a God who can beat everyone always, but he has proven that he can consistently dominate overseas, and be dangerous to even the best of the best in korea. Why, when you quite clearly agree with what I said i.e. that top terran isn't clear cut and lots of people have a claim to it, are you being so aggressive and misrepresenting what I said? I in no way said he can only barely beat top players, I said that at the tournaments he won, he only beat 1 or 2 top tier players (i.e. only zest and arguably solar at that tournament), and at other tournaments he gets smashed by random players (i.e. 2-0 by leenock etc at other tournaments). Please don't try to start arguments with people that you agree with for the sake of causing drama. Stop assuming that anyone that thinks other players should have been considered is automatically a "hater". We just have different opinions to the TL writers. There's no need to be aggressive. I am not "starting arguments" you made a post I disagreed with so I made a point. If you think that is aggressive, thats tough but i wouldn't recommend posting on the internet. If you post your opinion, please be prepared for people to respond with counter arguments without complaining that I am trying to start a fight. Calling people stupid and using all caps; now "counter arguments". You learn new stuff every day. On topic: it's important to discuss why players haven't attended certain foreign events. A lot of the time they pull out last minute because they have commitments in GSL etc. In many ways, not being able to play an IEM or Dreamhack at all because you have ro16 or ro8 GSL is a greater sign of achievement than winning that IEM or Dreamhack. Obviously that's contextual though. Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:31 Thax wrote:On February 01 2015 03:21 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 03:10 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:43 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 02:24 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:19 Yonnua wrote:
Every year Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up and teamliquid writers (and many other people) just start going mental and calling him the best player ever. Then when he gets smashed by top tier players at other events they completely ignore it and act as if it never happened. It's crazy.
Players like Maru, Innovation and Bomber have performed on much bigger stages and with greater consistency against the top tier players, but don't get anywhere near as much credit. :/ Yeah like when he edged out Zest 3-0, or edged out soO 3-1, or edged out innovation 3-1. Or maybe you are refering to him getting "smashed" by losing 3-2 to Life twice recently (and lets be real, almost everyone is losing to life right now especially in ZvT) in two of the best series of the year. I know what you mean when you say people overlook his losses, but the way you phrase it passes off his multiple tournament wins as "Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up". Aren't you doing the same thing you claim TL writers are doing? Your view comes off just as biased How is this not exactly what I said? He beats one or two top tier players per event. He barely edges it over people to win events i.e. 4-3 vs Solar & losing to Jim at Shenzhen, 3-2 vs Jaedong & losing to Scarlett/MMA at Homestory Cup, not facing any top tier players at Dreamhack Summer, etc. Then at other tournaments he drops games to Leenock (Dreamhack Winter/Taiwan Open), Flash (3-0 at Homestory Cup), Hyun (WCS), Pigbaby (two different WCS events), Dear/Stardust (ASUS ROG), Major/Hyun (WCS). I'm not claiming he's a bad playing, but saying that he's obviously the best terran of 2014 is crazy while completely ignoring that he lost to random players in loads of the events he played in (even one or two that he won). Acting like he was always undefeatable when he won is ridiculous. Claiming I'm doing the same as the writers is silly because I'm not ignoring data, I'm just using all of the data rather than selecting the little amount that proves that the player I like is the best. I'm also not saying anyone is or isn't the best, I'm saying that calling it so clear cut when other players have had much better performances throughout the year is silly and not backed by data. That tournament that he won by only edging out Solar 4-3 he also 3-0d Zest so I would be curious how you would call that edging someone out. Also, what player HASN'T lost to players that they wouldnt expect them too? Part of the reason that sc2 is so great is that no player is immortal or undefeatable. Also, you trying to discredit his tournament wins in foreign tournaments ignores that NO other player has replicated his results in those tournaments. Innovation (who is also a player i like) tried to live that same way when he went to Acer and didn't NEARLY have the same results as Taeja. I agree that best terran is NOT clear cut, but your initial post baisically said he can barley edge out some top players and only beat "bad" foreign players which Taeja has proven not to be true. TLDR The Best Terran 2014 is by no means clear cut, but claiming that Taeja didn't earn a claim to it, or doesn't deserve to be a candidate (you didn't say that but alot of haters do) is completely stupid. Taeja isn't a God who can beat everyone always, but he has proven that he can consistently dominate overseas, and be dangerous to even the best of the best in korea. Why, when you quite clearly agree with what I said i.e. that top terran isn't clear cut and lots of people have a claim to it, are you being so aggressive and misrepresenting what I said? I in no way said he can only barely beat top players, I said that at the tournaments he won, he only beat 1 or 2 top tier players (i.e. only zest and arguably solar at that tournament), and at other tournaments he gets smashed by random players (i.e. 2-0 by leenock etc at other tournaments). Please don't try to start arguments with people that you agree with for the sake of causing drama. Stop assuming that anyone that thinks other players should have been considered is automatically a "hater". We just have different opinions to the TL writers. There's no need to be aggressive. "Arguably Solar" he says of one of the best performing Zergs of 2014, and Leenock is a "random" now? Maybe if you didn't use so obviously loaded and biased language when hating on other players, people wouldn't get the impression that you were being a "hater". Umm, Lol? What's loaded, talking about players in terms of tiers where the top tier is the players winning and performing in GSL? (or winning top foreign events, which is why Taeja is top tier). Solar wasn't the best performing zerg when he played Taeja. That's like saying beating Maru in 2011 is like beating him now, there's an obvious discrepancy and it was before Solar started smashing.
Solar was performing very well in Code S well before that tournament. I also never said he was "the" best performing. If you really can't see how being so plainly dismissive of players and their achievements will rub some people the wrong way, than I wont bother anymore though.
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On February 01 2015 03:51 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Oh Oh we could start that one right now. 1. Flash Why? I was pretty happy about Flash's year.
Yeah, Flash's 2014 was definitely his best year so far
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On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans?
That would be full of Prime players
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans?
Nope, but I'll give that out now:
Naniwa
Jaedong
Flash
Scarlett
Stephano
Protoss in general
Terran in general
herO
Innovation
Idra
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On February 01 2015 03:54 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? That would be full of Prime players
No no, it's a list of salty fans, not the list of most depressed ones.
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On February 01 2015 03:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Oh Oh we could start that one right now. 1. Flash That would rather be the "top10 players with the most haters who like to refer to imaginary hords of annoying fanboys who are nowhere to be seen"
Hahaha, this is 100% true :D.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 01 2015 03:54 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? That would be full of Prime players
That would require Prime to have more than 1 fan.
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On February 01 2015 03:54 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Nope, but I'll give that out now: Jaedong
I'm not salty.
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On February 01 2015 03:55 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:54 OtherWorld wrote:On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? That would be full of Prime players That would require Prime to have more than 1 fan.
are you implaying Lilliputin is, in fact, Lorning's alt?
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On February 01 2015 03:57 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:55 stuchiu wrote:On February 01 2015 03:54 OtherWorld wrote:On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? That would be full of Prime players That would require Prime to have more than 1 fan. are you implaying Lilliputin is, in fact, Lorning's alt?
Well, it says so right in this sig.
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I have a really hard time with Taeja as the best Korean Terran, Honestly I would favor Bomber, MMA (maybe), and perhaps innovation over Taeja. Much of Taeja's success is against inferior competition.
Innovation won a gsl. (That in itself is far more difficult than winning the tournaments that taeja won)
MMA 2nd at blizzcon
Bomber won the RBBG in very impressive fashion, defeating several solid Kespa players, including cure. Who at the time was in the semi-finals of the GSL who went on to lost to Innovation 4-3.
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On February 01 2015 03:53 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:34 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 03:29 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 03:21 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 03:10 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:43 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 02:24 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:19 Yonnua wrote:
Every year Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up and teamliquid writers (and many other people) just start going mental and calling him the best player ever. Then when he gets smashed by top tier players at other events they completely ignore it and act as if it never happened. It's crazy.
Players like Maru, Innovation and Bomber have performed on much bigger stages and with greater consistency against the top tier players, but don't get anywhere near as much credit. :/ Yeah like when he edged out Zest 3-0, or edged out soO 3-1, or edged out innovation 3-1. Or maybe you are refering to him getting "smashed" by losing 3-2 to Life twice recently (and lets be real, almost everyone is losing to life right now especially in ZvT) in two of the best series of the year. I know what you mean when you say people overlook his losses, but the way you phrase it passes off his multiple tournament wins as "Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up". Aren't you doing the same thing you claim TL writers are doing? Your view comes off just as biased How is this not exactly what I said? He beats one or two top tier players per event. He barely edges it over people to win events i.e. 4-3 vs Solar & losing to Jim at Shenzhen, 3-2 vs Jaedong & losing to Scarlett/MMA at Homestory Cup, not facing any top tier players at Dreamhack Summer, etc. Then at other tournaments he drops games to Leenock (Dreamhack Winter/Taiwan Open), Flash (3-0 at Homestory Cup), Hyun (WCS), Pigbaby (two different WCS events), Dear/Stardust (ASUS ROG), Major/Hyun (WCS). I'm not claiming he's a bad playing, but saying that he's obviously the best terran of 2014 is crazy while completely ignoring that he lost to random players in loads of the events he played in (even one or two that he won). Acting like he was always undefeatable when he won is ridiculous. Claiming I'm doing the same as the writers is silly because I'm not ignoring data, I'm just using all of the data rather than selecting the little amount that proves that the player I like is the best. I'm also not saying anyone is or isn't the best, I'm saying that calling it so clear cut when other players have had much better performances throughout the year is silly and not backed by data. That tournament that he won by only edging out Solar 4-3 he also 3-0d Zest so I would be curious how you would call that edging someone out. Also, what player HASN'T lost to players that they wouldnt expect them too? Part of the reason that sc2 is so great is that no player is immortal or undefeatable. Also, you trying to discredit his tournament wins in foreign tournaments ignores that NO other player has replicated his results in those tournaments. Innovation (who is also a player i like) tried to live that same way when he went to Acer and didn't NEARLY have the same results as Taeja. I agree that best terran is NOT clear cut, but your initial post baisically said he can barley edge out some top players and only beat "bad" foreign players which Taeja has proven not to be true. TLDR The Best Terran 2014 is by no means clear cut, but claiming that Taeja didn't earn a claim to it, or doesn't deserve to be a candidate (you didn't say that but alot of haters do) is completely stupid. Taeja isn't a God who can beat everyone always, but he has proven that he can consistently dominate overseas, and be dangerous to even the best of the best in korea. Why, when you quite clearly agree with what I said i.e. that top terran isn't clear cut and lots of people have a claim to it, are you being so aggressive and misrepresenting what I said? I in no way said he can only barely beat top players, I said that at the tournaments he won, he only beat 1 or 2 top tier players (i.e. only zest and arguably solar at that tournament), and at other tournaments he gets smashed by random players (i.e. 2-0 by leenock etc at other tournaments). Please don't try to start arguments with people that you agree with for the sake of causing drama. Stop assuming that anyone that thinks other players should have been considered is automatically a "hater". We just have different opinions to the TL writers. There's no need to be aggressive. I am not "starting arguments" you made a post I disagreed with so I made a point. If you think that is aggressive, thats tough but i wouldn't recommend posting on the internet. If you post your opinion, please be prepared for people to respond with counter arguments without complaining that I am trying to start a fight. Calling people stupid and using all caps; now "counter arguments". You learn new stuff every day. On topic: it's important to discuss why players haven't attended certain foreign events. A lot of the time they pull out last minute because they have commitments in GSL etc. In many ways, not being able to play an IEM or Dreamhack at all because you have ro16 or ro8 GSL is a greater sign of achievement than winning that IEM or Dreamhack. Obviously that's contextual though. On February 01 2015 03:31 Thax wrote:On February 01 2015 03:21 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 03:10 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:43 Yonnua wrote:On February 01 2015 02:24 tjtombo wrote:On February 01 2015 02:19 Yonnua wrote:
Every year Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up and teamliquid writers (and many other people) just start going mental and calling him the best player ever. Then when he gets smashed by top tier players at other events they completely ignore it and act as if it never happened. It's crazy.
Players like Maru, Innovation and Bomber have performed on much bigger stages and with greater consistency against the top tier players, but don't get anywhere near as much credit. :/ Yeah like when he edged out Zest 3-0, or edged out soO 3-1, or edged out innovation 3-1. Or maybe you are refering to him getting "smashed" by losing 3-2 to Life twice recently (and lets be real, almost everyone is losing to life right now especially in ZvT) in two of the best series of the year. I know what you mean when you say people overlook his losses, but the way you phrase it passes off his multiple tournament wins as "Taeja beats a bunch of lower tier players at random tournaments then edges it over the one or two top tier players that turn up". Aren't you doing the same thing you claim TL writers are doing? Your view comes off just as biased How is this not exactly what I said? He beats one or two top tier players per event. He barely edges it over people to win events i.e. 4-3 vs Solar & losing to Jim at Shenzhen, 3-2 vs Jaedong & losing to Scarlett/MMA at Homestory Cup, not facing any top tier players at Dreamhack Summer, etc. Then at other tournaments he drops games to Leenock (Dreamhack Winter/Taiwan Open), Flash (3-0 at Homestory Cup), Hyun (WCS), Pigbaby (two different WCS events), Dear/Stardust (ASUS ROG), Major/Hyun (WCS). I'm not claiming he's a bad playing, but saying that he's obviously the best terran of 2014 is crazy while completely ignoring that he lost to random players in loads of the events he played in (even one or two that he won). Acting like he was always undefeatable when he won is ridiculous. Claiming I'm doing the same as the writers is silly because I'm not ignoring data, I'm just using all of the data rather than selecting the little amount that proves that the player I like is the best. I'm also not saying anyone is or isn't the best, I'm saying that calling it so clear cut when other players have had much better performances throughout the year is silly and not backed by data. That tournament that he won by only edging out Solar 4-3 he also 3-0d Zest so I would be curious how you would call that edging someone out. Also, what player HASN'T lost to players that they wouldnt expect them too? Part of the reason that sc2 is so great is that no player is immortal or undefeatable. Also, you trying to discredit his tournament wins in foreign tournaments ignores that NO other player has replicated his results in those tournaments. Innovation (who is also a player i like) tried to live that same way when he went to Acer and didn't NEARLY have the same results as Taeja. I agree that best terran is NOT clear cut, but your initial post baisically said he can barley edge out some top players and only beat "bad" foreign players which Taeja has proven not to be true. TLDR The Best Terran 2014 is by no means clear cut, but claiming that Taeja didn't earn a claim to it, or doesn't deserve to be a candidate (you didn't say that but alot of haters do) is completely stupid. Taeja isn't a God who can beat everyone always, but he has proven that he can consistently dominate overseas, and be dangerous to even the best of the best in korea. Why, when you quite clearly agree with what I said i.e. that top terran isn't clear cut and lots of people have a claim to it, are you being so aggressive and misrepresenting what I said? I in no way said he can only barely beat top players, I said that at the tournaments he won, he only beat 1 or 2 top tier players (i.e. only zest and arguably solar at that tournament), and at other tournaments he gets smashed by random players (i.e. 2-0 by leenock etc at other tournaments). Please don't try to start arguments with people that you agree with for the sake of causing drama. Stop assuming that anyone that thinks other players should have been considered is automatically a "hater". We just have different opinions to the TL writers. There's no need to be aggressive. "Arguably Solar" he says of one of the best performing Zergs of 2014, and Leenock is a "random" now? Maybe if you didn't use so obviously loaded and biased language when hating on other players, people wouldn't get the impression that you were being a "hater". Umm, Lol? What's loaded, talking about players in terms of tiers where the top tier is the players winning and performing in GSL? (or winning top foreign events, which is why Taeja is top tier). Solar wasn't the best performing zerg when he played Taeja. That's like saying beating Maru in 2011 is like beating him now, there's an obvious discrepancy and it was before Solar started smashing. Solar was performing very well in Code S well before that tournament. I also never said he was "the" best performing. If you really can't see how being so plainly dismissive of players and their achievements will rub some people the wrong way, than I wont bother anymore though.
In none of my posts have I been dismissive of players achievements. I've just put them in context of other players and the grand scheme of things. If you were compiling a list of "players likely able to win a code S", I don't think Solar would have been in many people's list. That's what we're looking at in terms of a top tier. Recognising that there are multiple tiers of players and that beating higher tiers means more isn't in any way insulting or dismissing players not in the top tier.
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On February 01 2015 03:54 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 03:43 Ej_ wrote:On February 01 2015 03:33 stuchiu wrote:
There is one more year end list to be released. Top 10 players with the saltiest fans? Nope, but I'll give that out now: Naniwa Jaedong Flash Scarlett Stephano Protoss in general Terran in general herO Innovation Idra
"Zerg in general" not even in the top3? Denied
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EPT
