During Opening Weekend, Carmac had an insightful chat with Kim Phan regarding the WCS changes and the future of the tournament. It's something that people may have missed during the 14 hour marathon stream, so I've typed it down for everyone to read. If you'd like to watch the actual interview, it is around this part.
Talk me through a little bit about the logic behind those (WCS 2015) changes?
So yesterday we announced the changes for WCS 2015 and I think the biggest change was the unification of WCS America and WCS Europe which is now just WCS. That's the biggest change. And the thinking behind that is to just grow Starcraft 2 globally not only for players but for viewers.
We want to see five years from now who the best Starcraft players are from all over the world not just from Korea. And I think that no one will argue that the best Starcraft 2 players right now come from Korea . They are the highest skilled players. They pretty much dominate every tournament. But there are also a lot of great players out there living outside of Korea. And the opportunities for them to showcase their skill and be recognized is very limited. That's one of the biggest reasons behind our change.
I hope that with that we are able to eventually see players not only coming out from France and from Norway, but also China and all these other great regions that have talented Starcraft players.
Do you have any plans for WCS going beyond the 2015 season? In the past we've had a season, then changes, then another season and then changes again. Is there a plan that exists that is longer than just one year?
Yes we do have plans. But I think that the Starcraft scene evolves quite a bit. The E-sports scene evolves a lot. Having the ability to adapt and to change is something that I'm proud that we're able to do and we've shown that. I think that some years you see incremental changes, some years you see bigger changes. It's really just following the adaptation of the scene. And we have plans, but nothing I'd be ready to share now because they may change, but we do [have plans].
Why did you go from the soft region lock to the tough one?
I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier. And that is creating more opportunities. The intention behind the soft region lock as you mentioned was to do that. But to take it a step back further, 2 to 3 years ago the Starcraft scene looked very different. When we designed WCS I think the ideas was to try to capture what was so great about the scene. And that was people really loved to see Koreans come and play against foreigners. Those were really exciting. It was really exciting to see them come over and compete. It was also arguably maybe increasing the level of skill. And so I think that some of those changes, some of the reasons why we had that implemented in the first place was not only do we want the stronger Korean players to come in and play during prime time, but to showcase that.
I think looking back it might have hurt the scene a bit; hurt the rest of the regional scenes grow. But now with the WCS changes, if we go back maybe the soft region lock didn't achieve what we wanted it to do, simply put. We wanted to help grow and it didn't work. We are still seeing a lot of regional players struggle to come up and I think now with the harder region lock this will be a greater opportunity for them.
Let's talk about the slot distribution for the regions [into premier league]. It seems to me on first glance that it's somewhat arbitrary although right. Is it possible depending on results in the future those slots will be shifted and allocated differently as the balance between regions changes?
The slot distributions were taken from how we did it this year. So you take a look at WCS America: the slot distribution from qualifier to challenger is very close to what you're seeing and what we're doing in 2015. I think we increased china by about 2 slots and Europe is the same thing. So that's our starting point. The great thing about it is these slots now, instead of going from qualifier into challenger, they immediately go into premier. And that's a great thing. That's what we're really excited about, to see these regional players immediately going into premier, immediately playing onsite matches and competing against each other.
So can those slots change? I think it's too early to say that but we're open to that. I think that if one region is performing really well or that scene is growing, then yes there's a possibility that slots may be adjusted.
What are the biggest complaints that you got from the internet, from the community so far and what are the biggest props? What are people the most happy about that you've been able to read on twitter, on reddit, on team liquid, everywhere else?
Well first of all thank you to the community for all of your feedback. We always appreciate it very much so keep them coming, we're reading them. There seems to be some confusion regarding the prize pool so those are some things that I would love to clarify.
The prize pool for WCS is not decreasing. What you see today in WCS America and WCS Europe, that prize pool has been combined and it will continue to stay in WCS. The distribution however is still being worked on and I think that shortly after BlizzCon we'll share what that breakdown looks like. But the investment there is still the same. One of the things I can mention is I think right now in premier league the payout stops in premier and you get a little bit in challenger. Next year all of the players who actually come into challenger from their regions will get a prize pool and I think it is safe for me to say that it's somewhere around $2,000 per player who makes it into challenger.
So it's not final?
That one I'm comfortable saying. That one I can say. It'll be final once it's public and it's live but those are some of the things I want to clarify. So we are trying to help grow those different regions and the prize money is still staying there and it's going to be kind of distributed out. I look forward to sharing that more.
Heroes of Newerth, I think people are expecting it to come out sometime next year...
Heroes of Newerth? O.o
Oh my goodness! Oh wow there is no coming back from this. Heroes of the Storm! Heroes of the Storm. This is too complicated for me.
Heroes of the Storm and Hearthstone. Those communities, what can they expect in terms of ecosystem approach, can they expect a WCS similar to what Starcraft has?
What I can say is that we don't think it makes sense to take the same structure in Starcraft and apply it to all of our games. I think that we want to provide a structure and system for the community and the players in those games. So we will be supporting E-sports for Hearthstone and for Heroes of the Storm. But how that looks and how that will be structured will be unique to that game.
Let's talk about WCS for Starcraft a little bit more. If you could go back in time to let's say 2011 2012 what are the things you definitely wouldn't have done knowing what you know today? And granted these were not your decisions as far as I know.
I don't know if there's anything I would say that I'd definitely not have done. I think we've learned a lot. We've definitely learned a lot from the scene and there were reasons behind the decision we made 2-3 years ago. And I think that each time we learn. I can really just focus on the changes going forward. Some of the things that, looking back, we wanna focus on regional growth. We still wanna celebrate the best players in the world and I think you're seeing that here, the World Championship Series Global Finals. We get to see that but we also also want to help grow those other regions. And that's what we're trying to do today. And I'm really really excited for what 2015 has to come.
So I'm gonna push just a little bit. Is there anything you guys regret of how it turned out in the past in WCS? Maybe regret is a strong word.
Regret is a strong word. I don't think it's really regret. What I would say is what we're hoping to get out of WCS in 2015 is we want it to be a conveyor belt of talent. We want to see who the top players are in these different regions. And we also wanna create a system that allows players to safely come in and test their skills. So that when, after time, when you see a lot of pros retiring, when they retire who are those players that are gonna come and fill in their spots. And that's what WCS and all these changes are about.
We are still supporting Korea. We have two leagues in Korea. I am very excited about that. and I'm excited about the opportunities there but I'm definitely more excited to find out outside of Korea, who is the best foreigner? I mean who would you say is the best foreigner outside of Korea?
Right now undeniably Snute.
See I don't know if I'd say that undeniably. You haven't really seen him play against all the other players.
Do you want to make a bet? Who is your favorite?
I would probably say Scarlett's my favorite. I also think HuK is great.
Snute will outdo both HuK and Scarlett in WCS premier league first season. Bet?
I think we'll have to find out. What about Polt?
Foreigner! Foreigner.
He is living in America. And he is playing here. And he is considered a player living outside of Korea.
You are shaming me. [Laughs]
Are you taking your word back now that I threw out Polt? Is Snute no longer your favorite?
Of non Koreans yes he's the best. I don't consider Polt a foreigner. Anyway let's skip to the future maybe a little bit further. My pet peeve is Starcraft 2 multiplayer free to play. Can we expect it in Legacy of the Void?
Oh Carmac. I'm definitely not the right person for you to ask that question. I don't have that answer. But I will say: BlizzCon is next week. There are people that are gonna be there that are the right people to ask.
Will there be answers during BlizzCon?
I guess you'll have to find out. I can't reveal secrets about BlizzCon before BlizzCon.
Okay fair enough. Finally, I'm assuming we haven't exhausted all there is to talk about. How do people ask you questions about WCS?
One way is you could tweet at me, or tweet @StarCraft. Our StarCraft community, we get all the feedback from there. You can post on our forums. We follow team liquid. My personal twitter is @kimaphan. I read that pretty often too. So keep the questions coming and we'll be doing more follow up after BlizzCon. We wanna share the points distribution as well as the prize pool breakdown. And then we'll be doing another follow up with the community.
Alright thank you Kim.
Thank you.
I'm gonna go kill myself now, and we're gonna go to a video. Thank you very much.
On November 04 2014 12:27 Noocta wrote: Mobas are all the same anyway, we should all call them heroes of something :p
They should make a moba called Heroes of Esports, featuring important community figures from all the esports right now. Artosis should have the skill false prophesy. He targets one person and makes him invulnerable for 5 seconds, then instantly kills him right after.
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
Polt lives in America right now, studying English at University of Texas in Austin. He has a student and working VISA, so he can play in WCS next year. He's Korean, not American, but NA has adopted him as their hero.
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
I am actually intrigued by the WCS changes the more and more I think about it. It seems like it will be a better indicator at who the best players in the world are, rather than have players who qualify for challenger in NA qualifying and not really being much competition in the long run.
I really don't understand how lumping every region into this big WCS-not-Korea thin is supposed to open up "opportunities for them to showcase their skill". Wouldn't you get to see more good players from different regions if you split them up more?
i actually thought kim was interviewing carmac until halfway into the chichat hah sounds interesting. looks like we'll be getting a lot of interesting news into blizzcon
We want to see five years from now who the best Starcraft players are from all over the world not just from Korea.
Implies that they want foreigners to have a chance to get on the Koreans' level and to progress, right? Then why prevent foreigners-Koreans competition? Also :
See I don't know if I'd say that undeniably. You haven't really seen him [Snute] play against all the other players.
ROFL poor Snute. He'll get proper recognition when he'll win Code S I guess
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
Reminds me of people chanting USA USA when Stephano was playing
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
Reminds me of people chanting USA USA when Stephano was playing
I believe you mean ASU ASU?
I'm happy that we've got Polt now. He really seems to be taking to the country. Plus, no doubt him and Violet are hella brining up the level of play on the ladder.
We want to see five years from now who the best Starcraft players are from all over the world not just from Korea.
Implies that they want foreigners to have a chance to get on the Koreans' level and to progress, right? Then why prevent foreigners-Koreans competition? Also :
See I don't know if I'd say that undeniably. You haven't really seen him [Snute] play against all the other players.
ROFL poor Snute. He'll get proper recognition when he'll win Code S I guess
Just want to clarify that they are in no way preventing foreigner-korean competition.
I really like the way they made these decisions, WCS global is regionlocked, which means koreans don't get to screw us over. We, foreigner on the other hnad are very welcome in all the korean leagues, GOM, Kespa Spotv, sure come and compete!
They looked at this and said we need a hard regionlock, then they said "oh but what about korea then we would have to lock that too, to be fair. Screw it we don't need to be fair, lets totally give foreigners the sweetest deal where they can eat the cookie but still save it." Out league are safe from invaders but we are free to invade the koreans league, brilliant example of unfairness being totally fair =D
Well Heroes of Newerth is more fun than Heroes of the Storm, so he has a point...
Glad to see the overall WCS prize pool staying the same though, 2k to get into challenger will be nice and should allow a good amount of foreigners to stay full-time.
I'm not sure SC2 is going to be around in 5 years, the scene has felt quite dry for a long time now. Changing the tournament format isn't bringing in more viewers.
(Vote): 2010 - just BlizzCon (Vote): 2011 - regional battle.net invitationals + BlizzCon (Vote): 2012 - nationals => continentals => world championships (@notBlizzCon!) (Vote): 2013 - 3 regions, 3 top tier WCS championships, 3 season finals and 1 BlizzCon (Vote): 2014 - 3 regions, 3 top tier WCS championships, 1 BlizzCon, other tournaments more important (Vote): 2015 - upcoming season with double standards for Korea and unKorea
One thing that really stood out of this interview was the perceptions on the definition of ''korean player''.
I do have a feel that Polt is not in the same category. Like a few Koreans, he's very well known because we see him play more . Definitly, race should not be the only factor wether or not to adopt a player as ''non-korean''. The whole idea is to root for players we care about is it not ? I care about Polt because he adopted USA and USA adopted him, it's good enough for me, and that a win for region lock.
Wow, so the new WCS will have loads of money then? Awesome! Glad to see they're spreading it down, that's exactly how you build the foreign scene. Make it so ~30 people can reliably live off of it so there's a reason to stablish it.
By the by, totally agree with Kim's point of Polt being a foreigner. He is now. Metamorphosis complete!
so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
Reminds me of people chanting USA USA when Stephano was playing
I believe you mean ASU ASU?
I'm happy that we've got Polt now. He really seems to be taking to the country. Plus, no doubt him and Violet are hella brining up the level of play on the ladder.
I, uh, don't know about that last part. Last time I checked, North American ladder was still a wasteland where anyone that's actually highly ranked has to wait over 15 minutes to get a matchup, and then sometimes it's against someone they completely outclass.
Everyone just ladders elsewhere. Wish it wasn't so.
I think dropping 90% of ladder members is very standard after 5 years compared to release. I can imagine that 2m+ active ladder players only playerd ~10games at 3rd season after release.
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
besides which sc2 was inevitably bound to have a huge influx of people who hop on for the nostalgia, play the campaign, mess around in a few multiplayer games and leave. since BW was so popular there were tons of "free" players in the initial scene
but nah im sure logic doesnt apply here and its because blizzard isnt picking the right maps
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
I would be interested in these numbers as well, but I highly doubt any of them had such extreme numbers as 90% dropping of within 1-2years.
On November 04 2014 21:08 brickrd wrote:
besides which sc2 was inevitably bound to have a huge influx of people who hop on for the nostalgia, play the campaign, mess around in a few multiplayer games and leave. since BW was so popular there were tons of "free" players in the initial scene
but nah im sure logic doesnt apply here and its because blizzard isnt picking the right maps
a few times being consistant for 5seasons only to drop of at an extreme pace, many things could've changed how many of these players were retained.
On November 04 2014 18:23 DnCL wrote: One thing that really stood out of this interview was the perceptions on the definition of ''korean player''.
I do have a feel that Polt is not in the same category. Like a few Koreans, he's very well known because we see him play more . Definitly, race should not be the only factor wether or not to adopt a player as ''non-korean''. The whole idea is to root for players we care about is it not ? I care about Polt because he adopted USA and USA adopted him, it's good enough for me, and that a win for region lock.
Maybe Polt is not the same as Cure or Maru and MC is not herO or Zest but in the end it's mostly about nationality.
It would be great if Blizzard promoted some international tournaments that allow koreans in :p Its ok if WCS is "region" locked, but the scene really needs the koreans playing with the foreigners somewhere. About Polt, when we say "foreigner" we are using the word from a korean perspective, so it makes no sense to call him a foreigner XD But yeah, he is american too, so he can compete in WCS unkorea ^^
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
I would be interested in these numbers as well, but I highly doubt any of them had such extreme numbers as 90% dropping of within 1-2years.
I don't think that's comparable, in this constantly changing video games industry any game (that's not free to play) will face fierce competition and distraction from other thousands of titles every year, the massive ad campaigns and the ease of information access thanks to the internet only helps more games to be exposed and to be played, thus players now tend to play games for far less time, while ten years ago it wasn't like this, people buy a game and will stick to a game for a very long time because they don't have so many games to choose from in the first place.
Also, competitive multiplayer games lose playerbase way faster because casuals moved on, the difficulty curve of SC2 doesn't really help as well.
On November 04 2014 22:00 Superbanana wrote: It would be great if Blizzard promoted some international tournaments that allow koreans in :p
Without a doubt they will. The proleague schedule offers room for Koreans to play in those tournaments.
It's amazing that challenger players will be getting paid 2,000, where before you had to get premier to get into the money(afaik). That changes everything, instead of nearly all wcs prize money flowing back to Korea, you now have a true ecosystem in place that puts money in aspiring players pockets. If i'm a youngster (i'm not) I would be chomping at the bit to get into challenger league.
It all sounds good anyway, guess we have to wait and see how it turns out.
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
On November 04 2014 21:13 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 21:08 brickrd wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:55 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:52 brickrd wrote:
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
I would be interested in these numbers as well, but I highly doubt any of them had such extreme numbers as 90% dropping of within 1-2years.
I don't think that's comparable, in this constantly changing video games industry any game (that's not free to play) will face fierce competition and distraction from other thousands of titles every year, the massive ad campaigns and the ease of information access thanks to the internet only helps more games to be exposed and to be played, thus players now tend to play games for far less time, while ten years ago it wasn't like this, people buy a game and will stick to a game for a very long time because they don't have so many games to choose from in the first place.
Also, competitive multiplayer games lose playerbase way faster because casuals moved on, the difficulty curve of SC2 doesn't really help as well.
the point I was trying to make is they could've done a lot to make more people stick around in the early days, for example battle.net 0.2
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
he meant u cant have a strong player base forever, after some years there are always some decrease in player base but that doesnt mean nobody plays that game anymore
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
On November 04 2014 21:13 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 21:08 brickrd wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:55 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:52 brickrd wrote:
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
I would be interested in these numbers as well, but I highly doubt any of them had such extreme numbers as 90% dropping of within 1-2years.
I don't think that's comparable, in this constantly changing video games industry any game (that's not free to play) will face fierce competition and distraction from other thousands of titles every year, the massive ad campaigns and the ease of information access thanks to the internet only helps more games to be exposed and to be played, thus players now tend to play games for far less time, while ten years ago it wasn't like this, people buy a game and will stick to a game for a very long time because they don't have so many games to choose from in the first place.
Also, competitive multiplayer games lose playerbase way faster because casuals moved on, the difficulty curve of SC2 doesn't really help as well.
That's also why Brood War is so fascinating phenomena - it's one of the very few titles that looks like it has a shot to outlive itself - the other examples that come to mind is SSBM and Quake1 (although I didn't hear about about Q1 non-underground competitions for quite some time so maybe Q1 is no tthe best example).
On November 04 2014 12:27 Noocta wrote: Mobas are all the same anyway, we should all call them heroes of something :p
They should make a moba called Heroes of Esports, featuring important community figures from all the esports right now. Artosis should have the skill false prophesy. He targets one person and makes him invulnerable for 5 seconds, then instantly kills him right after.
hahaha!
Dude you killed me right there xD! Perfect ulti for artosis!
On November 04 2014 12:27 Noocta wrote: Mobas are all the same anyway, we should all call them heroes of something :p
They should make a moba called Heroes of Esports, featuring important community figures from all the esports right now. Artosis should have the skill false prophesy. He targets one person and makes him invulnerable for 5 seconds, then instantly kills him right after.
hahaha!
Dude you killed me right there xD! Perfect ulti for artosis!
On November 04 2014 12:27 Noocta wrote: Mobas are all the same anyway, we should all call them heroes of something :p
They should make a moba called Heroes of Esports, featuring important community figures from all the esports right now. Artosis should have the skill false prophesy. He targets one person and makes him invulnerable for 5 seconds, then instantly kills him right after.
hahaha!
Dude you killed me right there xD! Perfect ulti for artosis!
I really think that the info we have so far is very very "bare bones" and I look forward to hearing about what will happen in 2015 from start to finish.
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
On November 04 2014 21:13 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 21:08 brickrd wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:55 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:52 brickrd wrote:
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
I would be interested in these numbers as well, but I highly doubt any of them had such extreme numbers as 90% dropping of within 1-2years.
I don't think that's comparable, in this constantly changing video games industry any game (that's not free to play) will face fierce competition and distraction from other thousands of titles every year, the massive ad campaigns and the ease of information access thanks to the internet only helps more games to be exposed and to be played, thus players now tend to play games for far less time, while ten years ago it wasn't like this, people buy a game and will stick to a game for a very long time because they don't have so many games to choose from in the first place.
Also, competitive multiplayer games lose playerbase way faster because casuals moved on, the difficulty curve of SC2 doesn't really help as well.
That's also why Brood War is so fascinating phenomena - it's one of the very few titles that looks like it has a shot to outlive itself - the other examples that come to mind is SSBM and Quake1 (although I didn't hear about about Q1 non-underground competitions for quite some time so maybe Q1 is no tthe best example).
Well from a playerbase/competition perspective BW is dead on a global level (if you count out Korean BW which is a confined place and has way less international appeal), the only true legendary competitive game still very active and alive is Melee. CS lives on a much improved standalone modern remake so that probably don't count, Quake is good as dead after id's horrible fundamental changes to Quake Live.
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
You think more than 50% of the original playerbase remains?
On November 04 2014 21:13 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 21:08 brickrd wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:55 Meavis wrote:
On November 04 2014 20:52 brickrd wrote:
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
i dont see you posting any numbers about what percentage of initial players have left those games?? so it seems you don't get the point
I would be interested in these numbers as well, but I highly doubt any of them had such extreme numbers as 90% dropping of within 1-2years.
I don't think that's comparable, in this constantly changing video games industry any game (that's not free to play) will face fierce competition and distraction from other thousands of titles every year, the massive ad campaigns and the ease of information access thanks to the internet only helps more games to be exposed and to be played, thus players now tend to play games for far less time, while ten years ago it wasn't like this, people buy a game and will stick to a game for a very long time because they don't have so many games to choose from in the first place.
Also, competitive multiplayer games lose playerbase way faster because casuals moved on, the difficulty curve of SC2 doesn't really help as well.
the point I was trying to make is they could've done a lot to make more people stick around in the early days, for example battle.net 0.2
I do agree on this, early WoL SC2 has serious fundamental non-balance issues not fixed until nearly 3 years later in Patch 2.0.
We want to see five years from now who the best Starcraft players are from all over the world not just from Korea.
Implies that they want foreigners to have a chance to get on the Koreans' level and to progress, right? Then why prevent foreigners-Koreans competition? Also :
See I don't know if I'd say that undeniably. You haven't really seen him [Snute] play against all the other players.
ROFL poor Snute. He'll get proper recognition when he'll win Code S I guess
Just want to clarify that they are in no way preventing foreigner-korean competition.
I really like the way they made these decisions, WCS global is regionlocked, which means koreans don't get to screw us over. We, foreigner on the other hnad are very welcome in all the korean leagues, GOM, Kespa Spotv, sure come and compete!
They looked at this and said we need a hard regionlock, then they said "oh but what about korea then we would have to lock that too, to be fair. Screw it we don't need to be fair, lets totally give foreigners the sweetest deal where they can eat the cookie but still save it." Out league are safe from invaders but we are free to invade the koreans league, brilliant example of unfairness being totally fair =D
You're awfully naive. Koreans that manage to get residential visas for EU or NA will still compete in. Don't make the mistake of thinking there are few either, I'm sure Polt, Hyun, the GEM guys the mYi guys, MMA, ForGG and a couple of others that I'm probably forgetting. Also, no foreigner in his right mind will try going to Korea and if they do they will get booted back to EU/NA with their tails behind their backs.
On November 05 2014 02:19 aXa wrote: I didn't get the newerth thingy. Can someone explain ?
EDIT: Oh, it's another game. Still don't get why it's so funny :S
It's funny to me because I also get confused amidst these moba clones. Blizzard should've called their game something else. I really thought the acronym was a joke at first...
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
Seems straight up racist in my opinion. If Korea has the best SC players in the world they shouldn't be punished for it. People seem to be overlooking how inconsiderate this is to the Koreans as well as other players that are not from EU or the Americas simply because they want people from their countries to win tournaments. Imagine if the Olympics did this, would be pretty dumb wouldn't it.
On November 04 2014 18:56 Meavis wrote: so they constantly change the system, and blame it on esports evoling to fast, when little to nothing is moving and they're just walking behind on everything. then theres also the part of no regrets, how about losing 90% of your initial scene? are there no regrets about that?
There are no regrets. As she said "regret is a strong word". If something doesnt work perfectly but (very) close, then there is nothing to regret. I dont know what you mean with "initial scene".
90% is a big number, I don't understand how you can not have regrets about that, with that I mean active player numbers, in the first few seasons (1-5) there were 3million+ active ladder players every season, right now a good season means more than 400.000.
people dont just play the same video games forever lol
gues that's why nobody plays wc3, scbw, d2 or plenty of other old games anymore, oh woops
If you don't think the player base for each and every one of those games declined year over year, you don't know much. Nobody plays the same game forever, and eventually every game is left with nothing but its few most dedicated players.
We want to see five years from now who the best Starcraft players are from all over the world not just from Korea.
Implies that they want foreigners to have a chance to get on the Koreans' level and to progress, right? Then why prevent foreigners-Koreans competition? Also :
See I don't know if I'd say that undeniably. You haven't really seen him [Snute] play against all the other players.
ROFL poor Snute. He'll get proper recognition when he'll win Code S I guess
Just want to clarify that they are in no way preventing foreigner-korean competition.
I really like the way they made these decisions, WCS global is regionlocked, which means koreans don't get to screw us over. We, foreigner on the other hnad are very welcome in all the korean leagues, GOM, Kespa Spotv, sure come and compete!
They looked at this and said we need a hard regionlock, then they said "oh but what about korea then we would have to lock that too, to be fair. Screw it we don't need to be fair, lets totally give foreigners the sweetest deal where they can eat the cookie but still save it." Out league are safe from invaders but we are free to invade the koreans league, brilliant example of unfairness being totally fair =D
You're awfully naive. Koreans that manage to get residential visas for EU or NA will still compete in. Don't make the mistake of thinking there are few either, I'm sure Polt, Hyun, the GEM guys the mYi guys, MMA, ForGG and a couple of others that I'm probably forgetting. Also, no foreigner in his right mind will try going to Korea and if they do they will get booted back to EU/NA with their tails behind their backs.
Actually only Polt and Violet seem confirmed for next year, maybe the ROOT Koreans too (I have no idea but I kinda remember CatZ saying that they would try). All the GEM guys as well as ForGG (and I'd bet MMA and the mYi guys) don't have the required visa and probably won't have.
On November 05 2014 14:15 Livemau wrote: Seems straight up racist in my opinion. If Korea has the best SC players in the world they shouldn't be punished for it. People seem to be overlooking how inconsiderate this is to the Koreans as well as other players that are not from EU or the Americas simply because they want people from their countries to win tournaments. Imagine if the Olympics did this, would be pretty dumb wouldn't it.
WCG was the equivalent of Olympics and now there's WECG and IeSF (gz KT). If Blizzard wants foreigners in Blizzcon, they should just invite them like so many times before. Bring back season finals!
season finals in addition to league finals were a nightmare to plan amid other premier tournaments. There is an upside for Koreans in all this, they are getting a second premier league to compete in (similar to the old OSL/MSL dynamic in BW, I guess)
On November 05 2014 12:37 ROOTCatZ wrote: reading this whole thing hurt me a bit inside, this is my opinion on regional growth before any of this ever happened over 3 years ago - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CAXidm7roE
I agree with what you said there. What's your opinion of the current changes?
On November 04 2014 12:38 Silvana wrote: So, wait, when I see people saying Polt is American, chanting USAUSAUSA, I thought they were joking? What on Earth???
They are, but the joke became a reality overtime. It's kind of like American SC2 folklore.
EPT
]
