Samsung Khan's Solar revealed that he received an game-fixing offer through his facebook.
He posted a captured picture on his facebook. It was a message from his facebook friend named "Lebbe Sebastien" and the content was shocking.
The translation for the picture:
"Hey Solar"
"Yes?"
"Can you fix a game? I am offering 2m won(approximately $2000)"
"I'll block you"
"ok"
"bye"
"Either way you will lose to Vortix. Why wouldn't you earn 2 m won?" ------------------------------------------ Solar posted the picture as soon as he received the message, and people advised him to report it.
The reason Lebbe Sebastien was able to send him a message was that Solar accepted his friend request. As progamers usually accept friend request from fans, a way to directly contact was made, and he offered him impudently.
A KeSPA representative said Recently, approaches to players through social media are increasing. We are getting some reports from players and teams, and responding by cooperating with the appropriate authorities."
Update: Statements from Punchline!:
On May 17 2014 18:57 Stabillo wrote: Hello guys,
First I have to thank the persons who warned me and this is my real account.
If I understood well all the stuff, we have a Facebook person (you can create a million of accounts with the same name on Facebook) who has a contact with Solar to arrange VortiX-Solar in Fragbite Masters.
1) FireCake is a really intelligent person who would never use his real name on Facebook. Nobody is enough unbrained to add someone on Facebook, give such a deal to the person and then hope the guy will accept whereas he does not know you...
2) Why could he arrange Vortix-Solar? He does not know any of them and did not play this competition.
3) Look at the FireCake's playstyle: he dislikes bets and I do not think this guy is able to bet anything in his life, especially 2k whereas he is a student in the real life.
4) I guess the fake TL account "Stabilo" with one "L" is a good evidence. As Faust said, I am always busy on skype because I receive 2000 messages a day... Someone wants to hurt us.
Well, nobody believed it here but I have to write officially: I trust FireCake and I know you did not contact Solar.
The real question is not "Is it the real FireCake?" anymore. The new question is to know "Who tried to make this shit?"
Someone (and they could be several persons) tries to fake my player FireCake and me to hurt us or even Punchline. We know this person knows French and even knows our skype's names, which made me really sad because it means we are "friends" with them
I feel very sorry for everybody. We are very active team to promote Starcraft II and we all do not want to hear things about matchfixing. I hope everybody will understand that we did not take any part in this story of matchfixing.
Have a good day
On May 17 2014 19:07 FireCake wrote: Hi guys,
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Its obviously not firecake, no one is retarded enough to speak with their private name. 1700 euros is a lot tho, i wonder how much this guy planned on making with his bet.
He has quite some pro korean on his friend list i can see Hyun,supernova,bomber,TOP,leenock,Sharp, and legend in it ( probably more but that's the friends we got in common )
On May 17 2014 08:53 shid0x wrote: Its obviously not firecake, no one is retarded enough to speak with their private name. 1700 euros is a lot tho, i wonder how much this guy planned on making with his bet.
hwasin said he got paid 3mil won for each of his two games. this guy only getting 2mil! what a rip off!! lol i hope this is fake. matchfixing is retarded
The offer for the game-fixing has skillful Korean. I think his "rules of Korean spelling" percentage of completion = 85+% but conversation level = 95+% In consider of his spelling and parlance, I think he is native Korean speaker(or level)
What is strange to me is why anyone would offer $2k for a player to throw a match in a small tournament like Fragbite. I would have expected something larger
On May 17 2014 10:06 Vertitto wrote: he still lost to Vortix conspiracy theory: what if he took the offer and make up the declining
well vortix is a top foreigner and can take games off koreans. He also beat MC and went on to beat losira after he beat solar. So its not that suspicious
On May 17 2014 10:10 Bagration wrote: What is strange to me is why anyone would offer $2k for a player to throw a match in a small tournament like Fragbite. I would have expected something larger
why not? the maxbet limit on illegal Korean betting sites is probably pretty high
On May 17 2014 08:53 shid0x wrote: Its obviously not firecake, no one is retarded enough to speak with their private name. 1700 euros is a lot tho, i wonder how much this guy planned on making with his bet.
If money was ever intended to be payed at all..
If Solar intended to accept the offer, it'd be pretty dumb to throw the match without receiving the money beforehand
Or this could be some kind of bait to cause a shitstorm
On May 17 2014 10:10 Bagration wrote: What is strange to me is why anyone would offer $2k for a player to throw a match in a small tournament like Fragbite. I would have expected something larger
nono see if a player were to throw a game they are more likely to throw something small that happens to have a lot of gambling on the line rather than something big where winning could probably get them much more money lol
On May 17 2014 10:15 Boucot wrote: By the way, as much as the situation is annoying, the fact that FireCake's name is so randomly associated to this is really funny.
$2000 to fix a match wow thats quite a bit for 1 best of 3 series in a mid level tournament like Fragbite this guy must have had a fairly large bet to be offering up so much to the player regardless the guy called *spoiler alert* vortix won
On May 17 2014 10:15 Boucot wrote: By the way, as much as the situation is annoying, the fact that FireCake's name is so randomly associated to this is really funny.
i guess it's not that funny for FireCake
Of course. Maybe karma strikes back for the game vs MaNa.
The last comment in the chat is hilarious. "Why refuse? Lucifron is going to win"... High unlikely lol. This guy must be some asshole trying to get Firecake in trouble.
On May 17 2014 10:10 Bagration wrote: What is strange to me is why anyone would offer $2k for a player to throw a match in a small tournament like Fragbite. I would have expected something larger
That is the thing, nobody is looking for "throws" in those smaller tournaments. If you do it in something that is huge, you are under the microscope from all sides.
I must say, mad respect to Solar for reporting this!
How do we know this isn't just the cover up? Alleged report of the offer to remove any future use of evidence from his facebook profile, but he still lost the games... >.>
Good on Solar for reporting it - at least it's on the radar now and maybe they'll find out who did it. (I imagine KeSPA takes this very seriously, no matter what tournament it is in.)
Also, Samsung Khan player having a Samsung phone - what a twist!
(Actually, I imagine there's a LOT of Samsung phones in Korea.)
On May 17 2014 10:28 felisconcolori wrote: Good on Solar for reporting it - at least it's on the radar now and maybe they'll find out who did it. (I imagine KeSPA takes this very seriously, no matter what tournament it is in.)
Also, Samsung Khan player having a Samsung phone - what a twist!
(Actually, I imagine there's a LOT of Samsung phones in Korea.)
team probably sponsors that kind of stuff for players skt definitely does
Meh. I don't see how such a deal could be struck between two internet strangers. Solar is not a "good guy" for not accepting. He's just not the dumbest guy.
$2,000 is pretty shitty, to be honest. Especially if it's to lose to a player like Vortix. (Vortix isn't bad, but he's a foreigner) Also agree with AlternativeEgo.
Well, after the Savior incident, players are terrified of getting caught doing this sort of thing (for good reason). It's a good thing, and Solar apparently didn't even listen to his offer, just noped his way out of there.
On May 17 2014 10:28 felisconcolori wrote: Good on Solar for reporting it - at least it's on the radar now and maybe they'll find out who did it. (I imagine KeSPA takes this very seriously, no matter what tournament it is in.)
Also, Samsung Khan player having a Samsung phone - what a twist!
(Actually, I imagine there's a LOT of Samsung phones in Korea.)
team probably sponsors that kind of stuff for players skt definitely does
for a period of time stork used an iphone ironically enough
On May 17 2014 10:28 felisconcolori wrote: Good on Solar for reporting it - at least it's on the radar now and maybe they'll find out who did it. (I imagine KeSPA takes this very seriously, no matter what tournament it is in.)
Also, Samsung Khan player having a Samsung phone - what a twist!
(Actually, I imagine there's a LOT of Samsung phones in Korea.)
team probably sponsors that kind of stuff for players skt definitely does
If team Galaxy does not use Galaxy phones, someone should get fired.
On May 17 2014 10:54 Shinespark wrote: Who is that person that offered the money?
Some random dumbass who is fucking around. There is not trust or guarantee for either of them and he happens to have the same name as Firecake. I mean seriously >.<
On May 17 2014 10:54 Shinespark wrote: Who is that person that offered the money?
Some random dumbass who is fucking around. There is not trust or guarantee for either of them and he happens to have the same name as Firecake. I mean seriously >.<
Should have asked for money up front, then taken the money and then reported it. (although by reporting one might not be able to keep the money(?) depending on how illegal it is to accept money on a certain premise despite not wishing to fulfill the goal)
I think making a generic offer doesn't matter legally even if your identity wasn't hidden at all (although I shouldn't say that since I don't know the Korean position on this). He could have just been bluffing.
On May 17 2014 11:34 Stabilo wrote: Firecake, il paraît que tu as voulu truquer un match, est-ce toi vraiment toi?
Oui, je voulais parier une gross somme sur lui. J'avais besoin d'argent.
Tu sais que la structure punchline n'apprécie pas ce genre de comportement, tu va devoir aller te dénoncer sur le post de TL. Si tu te dénonce, les sanctions seront plus légères. PunchLine est un équipe en devenir. A cause de ton attitude, tu ralentis la progression de l'équipe en donnant une mauvaise image, c'est regretable. Dépêche toi de t'éxcuter. Je suis vraiment déçu.
Non je n'ai pas à me dénoncer, ils n'ont pas besoin de la savoir!
Très bien. Je te suspends temporairement de l'organisation PunchLine et je vais aller te dénoncer sur le topic. Bonne nuit.
Ok fais ce que tu veux!
Firecake, it seems that you wanted to rig a match, do you really you?
Yes, I would bet a gross sum on him. I need money.
You know the punchline structure does not appreciate this kind of behavior, you will have to go turn you on TL post. If you report you, sanctions will be lighter. PunchLine is a team in the making. Because of your attitude, you slow down the progression of the team by giving a bad image, it is regrettable. Hurry up to execute you. I'm really disappointed.
No, I do not have to denounce me, they did not need to know!
I think his point is that the account on TL was just made a few minutes ago and has one post. It is right to be skeptical until things are actually confirmed.
S-Firecake, it seems you wanted to fix a match, is it reallly you ? F-Yes, I wanted to gamble a big amount of money on hm, I needed money S-You know that PunchLine don't appreciate these kind of behavior, you will have to admit it on the TL thread. If you do it, sanctions will be less serious. Punchline is a up&coming team. Because of your behavior, you are slowing down its progression by giving it a bad reputation, that's sad. Do it fast. I'm really disapointed. F-No, I don't have to denounce myself, they don't need to know about it. S-Fine. You are temporary suspended from PunchLine Organization, and i'm going to denounce you on the thread, good night. F-Do as you please.
looking at some admin tool stuff, I can't verify either way that it is or isn't the real stabilo. it seems like it could be, but the stuff i'm going off is not very solid and could be faked without too much trouble.
stabilo: it appears that you offered to rig a match, was it really you?
firecake: yes i wanted to bet a big amount on him, i needed the money
stabilo: punchline doesnt accept this type of behavior, youre gonna have to go fess up to your actions on TL. if you confess your punishment will be less severe. punchline is an up and coming team, your actions are hindering our progression and youre giving us a bad image. hurry up and go apologize, im disapointed
firecake: no i dont need to go confess, they dont need to know anything
stabilo: ok im suspending you temporarily from the team and im gonna expose you. good night
On May 17 2014 11:54 Faust852 wrote: Stabillo is the head manager of Punchline.SC2 (I know him for years now).
can you verify that the new account is actually him though? the main things that make me wonder is, I believe the actual one posts on two other accounts: Stabillo and Punchline!. Confusing to me why he'd register a new one for this.
Been forever since I've read/written french, but here goes:
Note: this seemed a bit iffy to me reading it. The wording of a few things felt a bit off, but it could just be my own French being rusty. Still, I'd be skeptical until we can verify Stabillo's identity
Stabillo: Firecak, it looks like you wanted to (fake? not quite sure of the direct translation for truquer) a match, is that really you?
Firecake: Yes, I wanted to bet a large sum on him. I needed money.
Stabillo: You know the PunchLine organization doesn't appreciate this behavior. You'll have to denounce (there's probably a better translation) yourself in a TL post. If you denounce yourself, the sanctions will be lighter. PunchLine is a growing (?) team. Because of your attitude, you're slowing the progression of the team by giving us a negative image, this is regrettable. Hurry up and do it (the post on TL). I am very disappointed.
Firecake: No, I don't have to denounce myself, they don't need to know !
Stabillo: Very well. I'm suspending you temporarily from the organization PunchLine and I will denounce you on the topic. Good night.
Surely it can't be Firecake. Perhaps someone impersonating him, and someone impersonating Stabillo? It would be, quite honestly, the stupidest thing in the world to approach someone about match fixing with your actual name. Is Firecake on that level of retardation? Is that why he likes Swarm Hosts????
(all right everybody's a french expert nowadays I guess :D I'll still leave mine since I took two minutes to write it)
- Firecake, I heard you tried to fix a match, was it really you? - Yeah, I wanted to bet big on him. I needed the money. - You know that the team punchline doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, you're going to have to call yourself out on the TL thread. If you call yourself out, the sanctions won't be as large. Punchline is a team with potential. With this attitude, you're undermining the progression of the team, and it's regrettable. Hurry up and apologize. I am disappoint. - No I don't have to apologize, they don't need to know! - Very well. I am suspending you from the team, and I'm going to call you out on the thread. Good night. - All right do whatever you want.
Honestly this was such good spoken french that it looked fake to me, nobody talks this well on skype lol.
On May 17 2014 11:54 Faust852 wrote: Stabillo is the head manager of Punchline.SC2 (I know him for years now).
can you verify that the new account is actually him though? the main things that make me wonder is, I believe the actual one posts on two other accounts: Stabillo and Punchline!. Confusing to me why he'd register a new one for this.
I'm contacting him on Skype, but he doesn't answer. That really weird because he usually do if he's on his computer since he's a friend and not just an acquaintance. And since he posted here he should be answering me.
Anyway, that's kind of weird that both Stabillo AND firecake are awake at this hour (it's 5AM+) here.
On May 17 2014 11:54 Faust852 wrote: Stabillo is the head manager of Punchline.SC2 (I know him for years now).
can you verify that the new account is actually him though? the main things that make me wonder is, I believe the actual one posts on two other accounts: Stabillo and Punchline!. Confusing to me why he'd register a new one for this.
I'm contacting him on Skype, but he doesn't answer. That really weird because he usually do if he's on his computer since he's a friend and not just an acquaintance. And since he posted here he should be answering me.
Anyway, that's kind of weird that both Stabillo AND firecake are awake at this hour (it's 5AM+) here.
yeah, feels like impersonators right now. At least one of the IPs on the new account is a TOR address, pretty sure the other is a proxy as well. going to remove it from the first post for now.
I personnally thing this is a huge imposture ! Stabillo don't usually write like that. He doesn't respond to me on Skype. It's past 5AM in france. I doubt FireCake is fluant in Korean. I doubt FireCake would admit he wanted to pay a pro if it was true.
On May 17 2014 12:02 Nebuchad wrote: (all right everybody's a french expert nowadays I guess :D I'll still leave mine since I took two minutes to write it)
- Firecake, I heard you tried to fix a match, was it really you? - Yeah, I wanted to bet big on him. I needed the money. - You know that the team punchline doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, you're going to have to call yourself out on the TL thread. If you call yourself out, the sanctions won't be as large. Punchline is a team with potential. With this attitude, you're undermining the progression of the team, and it's regrettable. Hurry up and apologize. I am disappoint. - No I don't have to apologize, they don't need to know! - Very well. I am suspending you from the team, and I'm going to call you out on the thread. Good night. - All right do whatever you want.
Honestly this was such good spoken french that it looked fake to me, nobody talks this well on skype lol.
This is a manager talking to a player about a very serious topic, the use of proper language hardly surprises me.
On May 17 2014 12:10 TT1 wrote: whoever's trying to impersonate firecake must really hate him
God, this is like one of those old murder mysteries, except instead of murder, we have an even more serious crime of match-fixing, and unpopular pro-gamer may or may not be responsible or getting framed. Who dun it?
On May 17 2014 12:08 Faust852 wrote: I personnally thing this is a huge imposture ! Stabillo don't usually write like that. He doesn't respond to me on Skype. It's past 5AM in france. I doubt FireCake is fluant in Korean. I doubt FireCake would admit he wanted to pay a pro if it was true.
Either way we'll know for sure in a few hours. Might as well assume it's not him for now.
On May 17 2014 12:02 Nebuchad wrote: (all right everybody's a french expert nowadays I guess :D I'll still leave mine since I took two minutes to write it)
- Firecake, I heard you tried to fix a match, was it really you? - Yeah, I wanted to bet big on him. I needed the money. - You know that the team punchline doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, you're going to have to call yourself out on the TL thread. If you call yourself out, the sanctions won't be as large. Punchline is a team with potential. With this attitude, you're undermining the progression of the team, and it's regrettable. Hurry up and apologize. I am disappoint. - No I don't have to apologize, they don't need to know! - Very well. I am suspending you from the team, and I'm going to call you out on the thread. Good night. - All right do whatever you want.
Honestly this was such good spoken french that it looked fake to me, nobody talks this well on skype lol.
This is a manager talking to a player about a very serious topic, the use of proper language hardly surprises me.
It's not about proper language. It's about saying "I do not" instead of "I don't". Several things just don't add up to a real conversation in french on skype to me (maybe other french can confirm or deny)
Also that's "Stabilo" with one "l" and it's a one post account while Stabillo allegedly already has an acc.
Between the one post account, Stabillo already having a personal and team account and the good Korean by Firecake, how in the hell do people actually believe it was Firecake trying to fix a match?
If this was really a scandal you would think Stabillo would have made a thread by now instead of two screenshots of a skype chat.
What bothers me is that someone either just thought of framing a player on the spot after getting ahold of this information, or had planned it ahead of time to deliberately defame somebody and implicate other progamers. Either way it's not healthy for the community.
On May 17 2014 12:35 Caihead wrote: What bothers me is that someone either just thought of framing a player on the spot after getting ahold of this information, or had planned it ahead of time to deliberately defame somebody and implicate other progamers. Either way it's not healthy for the community.
Yeah, this. Someone must have some serious beef with Firecake to try to do this to him. Though since the name used was his on FB, they must have planned the entire thing out, not just spur of the moment, try to jump in on it.
On May 17 2014 12:35 Caihead wrote: What bothers me is that someone either just thought of framing a player on the spot after getting ahold of this information, or had planned it ahead of time to deliberately defame somebody and implicate other progamers. Either way it's not healthy for the community.
Yeah, this. Someone must have some serious beef with Firecake to try to do this to him. Though since the name used was his on FB, they must have planned the entire thing out, not just spur of the moment, try to jump in on it.
Guy on facebook doesn't have to be fakeskype guy. Trolls gonna troll.
On May 17 2014 12:35 Caihead wrote: What bothers me is that someone either just thought of framing a player on the spot after getting ahold of this information, or had planned it ahead of time to deliberately defame somebody and implicate other progamers. Either way it's not healthy for the community.
Yeah, this. Someone must have some serious beef with Firecake to try to do this to him. Though since the name used was his on FB, they must have planned the entire thing out, not just spur of the moment, try to jump in on it.
Guy on facebook doesn't have to be fakeskype guy. Trolls gonna troll.
On May 17 2014 12:41 pure.Wasted wrote: I can't be the only one refreshing this thread every thirty seconds. Scandals and controversies aren't usually this fun!
It's like a game of Clue. Who dun it? Esports Match-fixing Edition
On May 17 2014 12:02 Nebuchad wrote: (all right everybody's a french expert nowadays I guess :D I'll still leave mine since I took two minutes to write it)
- Firecake, I heard you tried to fix a match, was it really you? - Yeah, I wanted to bet big on him. I needed the money. - You know that the team punchline doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, you're going to have to call yourself out on the TL thread. If you call yourself out, the sanctions won't be as large. Punchline is a team with potential. With this attitude, you're undermining the progression of the team, and it's regrettable. Hurry up and apologize. I am disappoint. - No I don't have to apologize, they don't need to know! - Very well. I am suspending you from the team, and I'm going to call you out on the thread. Good night. - All right do whatever you want.
Honestly this was such good spoken french that it looked fake to me, nobody talks this well on skype lol.
This is a manager talking to a player about a very serious topic, the use of proper language hardly surprises me.
It's not about proper language. It's about saying "I do not" instead of "I don't". Several things just don't add up to a real conversation in french on skype to me (maybe other french can confirm or deny)
Also that's "Stabilo" with one "l" and it's a one post account while Stabillo allegedly already has an acc.
Highly suspicious to say the least.
French is ok, not perfect french but familiar french between 2 friends..
On May 17 2014 12:45 devJunk wrote: He should've accepted and then told him to fuck off.
No, because then the fixer could claim that Solar was initially receptive, which would ruin his career even if he did not ultimately accept the offer, simply due to the hit to his reputation.
On May 17 2014 12:45 devJunk wrote: He should've accepted and then told him to fuck off.
No, because then the fixer could claim that Solar was initially receptive, which would ruin his career even if he did not ultimately accept the offer, simply due to the hit to his reputation.
Plus if the guy is using someone elses name and doing something like matchfixing over the internet, the chances of him paying are pretty low anyways.
If Firecake gives consent for an impartial party to have access to any messages between Firecake and Solar's Facebook accounts. Likewise, Solar can give consent to Facebook sharing any messages between him and Firecake to a third party. The latter is more likely for obvious reasons.
So, Solar please show the messages to kespa directly, in person, so that photoshopping is taken out of doubt. The next step would be to see whether Firecake is really tied to the facebook account. How can we confirm that? Perhaps looking at that account's other friends and see if they had encounters/messages that shows whether it is legitimately Firecake or not. Does the that account have uploads of pictures that only the real Firecake would possess?
The truth is out there if we all don't jump to conclusions in either direction. And if not, well, whatever, nothing happened so we can just applaud Solar for his stand-up behaviour. Maybe this is a warning to other professional gamers/casters/etc. to verify the true identity of other notable people on twitter, facebook, etc.
On May 17 2014 12:02 Nebuchad wrote: (all right everybody's a french expert nowadays I guess :D I'll still leave mine since I took two minutes to write it)
- Firecake, I heard you tried to fix a match, was it really you? - Yeah, I wanted to bet big on him. I needed the money. - You know that the team punchline doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, you're going to have to call yourself out on the TL thread. If you call yourself out, the sanctions won't be as large. Punchline is a team with potential. With this attitude, you're undermining the progression of the team, and it's regrettable. Hurry up and apologize. I am disappoint. - No I don't have to apologize, they don't need to know! - Very well. I am suspending you from the team, and I'm going to call you out on the thread. Good night. - All right do whatever you want.
Honestly this was such good spoken french that it looked fake to me, nobody talks this well on skype lol.
This is a manager talking to a player about a very serious topic, the use of proper language hardly surprises me.
It's not about proper language. It's about saying "I do not" instead of "I don't". Several things just don't add up to a real conversation in french on skype to me (maybe other french can confirm or deny)
Also that's "Stabilo" with one "l" and it's a one post account while Stabillo allegedly already has an acc.
Highly suspicious to say the least.
Yeah, this conversation is correct in French, but it seems too polite, especially when talking about matchfixing, and on Skype. Definitely fishy.
On May 17 2014 14:20 Zenbrez wrote: Thing is I doubt it was even a real offer. Was probably just somebody looking to start some drama.
pretty much this. I mean, the guy that asked Sora to fix the match didn't even "try" to convince him to change his mind lol. I would figure he would try much more than that if he's that interested in it. Also, the whole Korean thing and then someone mentioning the time in France and the messages etc... is all suspicious and likely not firecake.
So... your current theory is that someone is trying to pin this all on Firecake... why?? I mean no disrespect to the guy, but he's not that important. Why would anyone go to such lengths?
On May 17 2014 14:35 Shinespark wrote: So... your current theory is that someone is trying to pin this all on Firecake... why?? I mean no disrespect to the guy, but he's not that important. Why would anyone go to such lengths?
when I saw the topic, I thought Blizzard invited Solar to its balance team to "fix the game" and didn't understand why they asked Solar in particular. Then I remembered other meanings of the word "fix". Do I even english?!
On May 17 2014 15:01 IAmWithStupid wrote: Lol, I went full retard on this: + Show Spoiler +
when I saw the topic, I thought Blizzard invited Solar to its balance team to "fix the game" and didn't understand why they asked Solar in particular. Then I remembered other meanings of the word "fix". Do I even english?!
It's okay man, it was a poorly worded title. I thought the same thing when I first saw the title.
On May 17 2014 15:01 IAmWithStupid wrote: Lol, I went full retard on this: + Show Spoiler +
when I saw the topic, I thought Blizzard invited Solar to its balance team to "fix the game" and didn't understand why they asked Solar in particular. Then I remembered other meanings of the word "fix". Do I even english?!
On May 17 2014 15:01 Kokolat wrote: Just for information, firecake as nothing to do with it ^_^ it's not him at all
Yeah the moderator banned the imposter.
Still though, you kinda have to golf clap this scammer. He hated Firecake enough to set up a hoax over Facebook, Skype, and TL in Korean, French, and English respectively. Would definitely not want to cut someone like him off while driving.
Unfortunate. I'm guessing this was a hoax or something considering the name he used, but it really goes to show how easy this can be. Either way huge respect to Solar for reporting it.
On May 17 2014 15:01 Kokolat wrote: Just for information, firecake as nothing to do with it ^_^ it's not him at all
Yeah the moderator banned the imposter.
Still though, you kinda have to golf clap this scammer. He hated Firecake enough to set up a hoax over Facebook, Skype, and TL in Korean, French, and English respectively. Would definitely not want to cut someone like him off while driving.
I wonder what firecake did, maybe someone is sick of swarm host stalemates. Watch out stephano, you're next.
For the most part through reading op's post I thought fix as in help us correct our bugs on x game and I was wondering why solar was being so mean, then I realized xd
On May 17 2014 15:01 IAmWithStupid wrote: Lol, I went full retard on this: + Show Spoiler +
when I saw the topic, I thought Blizzard invited Solar to its balance team to "fix the game" and didn't understand why they asked Solar in particular. Then I remembered other meanings of the word "fix". Do I even english?!
same for me lol, I thought Blizzard finally invited pros to work directly with the balance/design team :D
maybe a dumb question but what do they mean with fixing a match? i think it is losing a match on purpose so that the persons bet comes out. but im not sure.
On May 17 2014 18:16 SCguineapig wrote: maybe a dumb question but what do they mean with fixing a match? i think it is losing a match on purpose so that the persons bet comes out. but im not sure.
Seeing Nal_Ra this upset was something else. This was right around the time I was really starting to become more aware of the BW pro scene and really keep up with it. Was never a sAviOr fan but I was a big fan of Nal_Ra, and the anger he had here was just nuts.
First I have to thank the persons who warned me and this is my real account.
If I understood well all the stuff, we have a Facebook person (you can create a million of accounts with the same name on Facebook) who has a contact with Solar to arrange VortiX-Solar in Fragbite Masters.
1) FireCake is a really intelligent person who would never use his real name on Facebook. Nobody is enough unbrained to add someone on Facebook, give such a deal to the person and then hope the guy will accept whereas he does not know you...
2) Why could he arrange Vortix-Solar? He does not know any of them and did not play this competition.
3) Look at the FireCake's playstyle: he dislikes bets and I do not think this guy is able to bet anything in his life, especially 2k whereas he is a student in the real life.
4) I guess the fake TL account "Stabilo" with one "L" is a good evidence. As Faust said, I am always busy on skype because I receive 2000 messages a day... Someone wants to hurt us.
Well, nobody believed it here but I have to write officially: I trust FireCake and I know you did not contact Solar.
The real question is not "Is it the real FireCake?" anymore. The new question is to know "Who tried to make this shit?"
Someone (and they could be several persons) tries to fake my player FireCake and me to hurt us or even Punchline. We know this person knows French and even knows our skype's names, which made me really sad because it means we are "friends" with them
I feel very sorry for everybody. We are very active team to promote Starcraft II and we all do not want to hear things about matchfixing. I hope everybody will understand that we did not take any part in this story of matchfixing.
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
If you are the real Firecake (your English is suspiciously good for a French guy ), don't worry. I doubt anyone really believes you have anything to do with. This is obviously the work of an impostor.
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Now that's a great idea! A BO9 FireCake vs Solar showmatch should silence all the drama around here for a week or so.
On May 17 2014 19:05 mantequilla wrote: Isn't 2000$ a bit too much for a single match? I think this is a joke and Solar fell for it.
It's actually a bit on the low side compared to BW matchfixing. I doubt it's a joke and for every Solar that exposes it I wouldn't be surprised if others are taking offers like this (especially those not on reliable teams/salaries).
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Yeah, don't sweat it. Pretty obviously some sort of imposter, though your words are certainly appreciated.
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Now that's a great idea! A BO9 FireCake vs Solar showmatch should silence all the drama around here for a week or so.
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
If you are the real Firecake (your English is suspiciously good for a French guy ), don't worry. I doubt anyone really believes you have anything to do with. This is obviously the work of an impostor.
I think everybody should worry about that kind of drama. I am not a famous pro player, i am not even a full time player, and however there is (are ?) people trying to destroy my esport carreer through many fake accounts on different websites and in different languages This drama is funny because its a bad fake (btw, thank the admin who identified the fake Stabillo) but its also a bit sad to see someone who tries desperatly to hurt me. Now imagine what an evil person could do to the most famous people in the community where a lot of money are involved.
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Now that's a great idea! A BO9 FireCake vs Solar showmatch should silence all the drama around here for a week or so.
This is a bit silly. I kinda doubt that someone would want to fix Fragbite Finals. 2 m wons are probably offered without any understanding of exchange rates and its actual value in Korea. $2000 is a silly small value to even consider risking your entire career on, especially for someone as established as Solar. I doubt large sums of money is being exchanged in sc2 betting market these days, getting a LoL carry to throw a match is much more likely.
I have to say i am very shocked to learn that someone would try to hurt FireCake and/or his team like that. I can understand that some people might not like him du to his past behavior but it's not a reason to steal his identity and commit a felony ! I am 100% behind FireCake, Stabillo and Punchline and i hope the thief of identity will be found soon.
The fake skype conversation was hilarious tbh, it looked like a script written by the worse film maker in the world. Even a 5year old boy wouldn't believe it was real.
As much as massing up swarmhosts makes you one of the most horrible people on the planet, FireCake probably didn't do it. Props to Solar for reporting it.
It's discusting. Why would someone want to hurt a "no name" team. Punchline is a great French team but it's practicly unknown outside of France and Firecake.
This is really really sick and twisted. I can't even try to think why someone would take lengths to do something like that. I mean.
Obvious this person knows Stabillo, Firecake and punchline and French and Korean, so that's someone they know... It's just... i'm baffled. This is really twisted and ... i don't have any words for this. It's just a freaking fuck.
Glad it was found that it was an imposter so punchline name is clear.
Do we know if the KR employed in the screenshot is correct ? That might help them found who did this.
It's discusting. Why would someone want to hurt a "no name" team. Punchline is a great French team but it's practicly unknown outside of France and Firecake.
This is really really sick and twisted. I can't even try to think why someone would take lengths to do something like that. I mean.
Obvious this person knows Stabillo, Firecake and punchline and French and Korean, so that's someone they know... It's just... i'm baffled. This is really twisted and ... i don't have any words for this. It's just a freaking fuck.
Glad it was found that it was an imposter so punchline name is clear.
Do we know if the KR employed in the screenshot is correct ? That might help them found who did this.
OR - one person who knows Firecake and Stabillo, French, and has (money to pay) a Korean accomplice
is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Now that's a great idea! A BO9 FireCake vs Solar showmatch should silence all the drama around here for a week or so.
For a week unless NaNiwa strikes back
EDIT: Interesting situation and development. I wonder how frequent such occurences are - the fact that the number is increasing is no indicator.
On May 17 2014 14:04 Loccstana wrote: Remember him?
There was about 10 other individuals aside from Savior so kinda bad on your part for singling someone out specifically when others were involved.
Either way, match-fixing is always and always going to occur within Esports whether we like it or not. Unless someone comes out about it there isnt really much we can do in regards unless its pretty obvious within a game (but even then it can still be tedious and difficult to determine).
I actually did my thesis on this matter for a ethics course a few months ago and comparing what I saw/read/knew then comparing it to today's research into the matter was definitely a shocker to see.
On May 18 2014 08:29 Waise wrote: is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
Why is it that everyone just assumes there's only one guy doing everything? Why can't it be that someone was like, "oh hey, I'm a troll, I notice that this korean guy used the name "Lebbe Sébastien", let me create this picture with the purpose of trolling people, ahah I'm so smart and superior"?
It seems magnitudes more likely than the alternative to me...
On May 18 2014 08:29 Waise wrote: is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
"Is match fixing a serious thing in Korea?"
Say what?
?? is there a problem with my question? i am an american-canadian starcraft fan. i've heard of savior and things like that, but i don't live in korea or know much about their culture, their laws or how these incidents are handled. perhaps you misread me? i am not speaking of fans and tournaments taking match fixing seriously, i am talking about prosecution under the law and what is necessary for legal authorities to prove match fixing and how it is prosecuted.
sorry, i'm not some geeky esports super-fan who clips newspaper articles about starcraft matchfixing. it was a perfectly reasonable question on my part...
On May 18 2014 01:18 miniskirt wrote: what would firecake even gain from this game?
Exposure? Even if he can't muster a single win, he gets his name out there. *I'm assuming you are taking about their showmatch.
no, i'm saying what would firecake gain from having solar drop a match against vortix it's stupid to even consider he would be implicated in fixing a match he has no interest in
On May 18 2014 08:29 Waise wrote: is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
"Is match fixing a serious thing in Korea?"
Say what?
?? is there a problem with my question? i am an american-canadian starcraft fan. i've heard of savior and things like that, but i don't live in korea or know much about their culture, their laws or how these incidents are handled. perhaps you misread me? i am not speaking of fans and tournaments taking match fixing seriously, i am talking about prosecution under the law and what is necessary for legal authorities to prove match fixing and how it is prosecuted.
sorry, i'm not some geeky esports super-fan who clips newspaper articles about starcraft matchfixing. it was a perfectly reasonable question on my part...
the answer to your question is yes it's taken seriously, and is punishable under korean law.
On May 18 2014 08:29 Waise wrote: is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
Yes, it is. Is anyone going to start an international manhunt for this person to arrest and prosecute? No. It was an offer with a categorical refusal. There's nothing there except a bad joke or a bonehead. If this happens with regularity and someone is making money from gamers taking a dive, then you have a problem.
IMO this seems to be like Romney making a $50000 bet during a debate. He wasn't serious, but the amount seemed plausible enough to cause trouble. I think this might be a similar kind of joke.
On May 18 2014 01:18 miniskirt wrote: what would firecake even gain from this game?
Exposure? Even if he can't muster a single win, he gets his name out there. *I'm assuming you are taking about their showmatch.
no, i'm saying what would firecake gain from having solar drop a match against vortix it's stupid to even consider he would be implicated in fixing a match he has no interest in
Matchfixers earn by placing huge bets against the player who is throwing on betting sites. Of course, it's not firecake in this case, but hypothetically, that's how he would gain.
Sport (and e-sport) died the day you could bet 1$ on it. The "real" results in sport are a far away dream ... i don't know the situation in e-sport but it's only a question of time before things get completely spoiled. The good part is that most of the people won't realize that so everything will continue to appear right and clear.
My first reaction to this drama was "lol". But I fear that if Stabillo (my manager at PunchLine) took the time to wake up me this morning he expects that I develop a little more ... I never tried to matchfix one my games and I will never do such a thing. I play sc2 because I love this game, I love practice and give the best of myself. I guess the reason mentioned for this matchfix is money. Honestly, if I played this game solely for money I think i would have have stopped this game a long time ago and I would focus all my energy on my engineering studies.
I don't know what else can i say, i proposed a showmatch between Solar and me to end this drama, i think that could be funny :D
Now that's a great idea! A BO9 FireCake vs Solar showmatch should silence all the drama around here for a week or so.
For a week unless NaNiwa strikes back
EDIT: Interesting situation and development. I wonder how frequent such occurences are - the fact that the number is increasing is no indicator.
It is interesting but it doesn't make any sense to me. In this case the person who made contact offered $2000. Let's say that the odds for Vortix winning was 2.0 (probably slightly lower but it makes for easy math). Then he had to put $6000 in total on the line to make a $2000 profit, but with no guarantee of Solar actually going through with it. Betting on yourself or cooperating with friends I can get, but not strangers making contact on the internet.
So to me this is about trying to get players off their game or a twisted view of internet fun time
On May 18 2014 08:29 Waise wrote: is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
"Is match fixing a serious thing in Korea?"
Say what?
?? is there a problem with my question? i am an american-canadian starcraft fan. i've heard of savior and things like that, but i don't live in korea or know much about their culture, their laws or how these incidents are handled. perhaps you misread me? i am not speaking of fans and tournaments taking match fixing seriously, i am talking about prosecution under the law and what is necessary for legal authorities to prove match fixing and how it is prosecuted.
sorry, i'm not some geeky esports super-fan who clips newspaper articles about starcraft matchfixing. it was a perfectly reasonable question on my part...
I'm sorry. The match fixing scandal was about the biggest tragedy to ever hit starcraft. Several teams had to close due to sponsors backing out and so on.
On May 18 2014 08:29 Waise wrote: is conspiring to fix an online esports match something korean authorities would even take seriously? how common is this, really, and is there any real policing of it?
if it is a serious offense in korea, can't solar just show the facebook message to the authorities and let them take it from there? and if it is not taken seriously, there's nothing we can do unless the imposter reveals himself somehow (which is likely, as people who do this sort of thing often brag/want attention and fame)
"Is match fixing a serious thing in Korea?"
Say what?
?? is there a problem with my question? i am an american-canadian starcraft fan. i've heard of savior and things like that, but i don't live in korea or know much about their culture, their laws or how these incidents are handled. perhaps you misread me? i am not speaking of fans and tournaments taking match fixing seriously, i am talking about prosecution under the law and what is necessary for legal authorities to prove match fixing and how it is prosecuted.
sorry, i'm not some geeky esports super-fan who clips newspaper articles about starcraft matchfixing. it was a perfectly reasonable question on my part...
I'm sorry. The match fixing scandal was about the biggest tragedy to ever hit starcraft. Several teams had to close due to sponsors backing out and so on.
Also it's worth to point out that match fixing is a crime also in Canada and USA.
It would be kinda awesome if this was FireCake's plan since the beginning. 1) Send an obvious compromising message from his real name. 2) Everybody goes: "Firecake too smart for that, it's not him" 3) FireCake: "Let me organize some show match now that everyone is talking about me." 4) ... 5) ... (Swarmhost games take quite long) 6) Profit.
On May 18 2014 23:33 ZenithM wrote: It would be kinda awesome if this was FireCake's plan since the beginning. 1) Send an obvious compromising message from his real name. 2) Everybody goes: "Firecake too smart for that, it's not him" 3) FireCake: "Let me organize some show match now that everyone is talking about me." 4) ... 5) ... (Swarmhost games take quite long) 6) Profit.
"Profit" being an 0-5 loss against #1 Samsung Zerg?
On May 18 2014 23:33 ZenithM wrote: It would be kinda awesome if this was FireCake's plan since the beginning. 1) Send an obvious compromising message from his real name. 2) Everybody goes: "Firecake too smart for that, it's not him" 3) FireCake: "Let me organize some show match now that everyone is talking about me." 4) ... 5) ... (Swarmhost games take quite long) 6) Profit.
"Profit" being an 0-5 loss against #1 Samsung Zerg?
If he successfully goes swarm hosts, he can use that time between the spawn and his loss and suck the youth out of the wasted time of viewers.
On May 18 2014 23:33 ZenithM wrote: It would be kinda awesome if this was FireCake's plan since the beginning. 1) Send an obvious compromising message from his real name. 2) Everybody goes: "Firecake too smart for that, it's not him" 3) FireCake: "Let me organize some show match now that everyone is talking about me." 4) ... 5) ... (Swarmhost games take quite long) 6) Profit.
"Profit" being an 0-5 loss against #1 Samsung Zerg?
Nah, the profit is for us. I'm running out of locusts these days, gotta replenish my stock.
On May 18 2014 23:33 ZenithM wrote: It would be kinda awesome if this was FireCake's plan since the beginning. 1) Send an obvious compromising message from his real name. 2) Everybody goes: "Firecake too smart for that, it's not him" 3) FireCake: "Let me organize some show match now that everyone is talking about me." 4) ... 5) ... (Swarmhost games take quite long) 6) Profit.
"Profit" being an 0-5 loss against #1 Samsung Zerg?
On May 18 2014 23:33 ZenithM wrote: It would be kinda awesome if this was FireCake's plan since the beginning. 1) Send an obvious compromising message from his real name. 2) Everybody goes: "Firecake too smart for that, it's not him" 3) FireCake: "Let me organize some show match now that everyone is talking about me." 4) ... 5) ... (Swarmhost games take quite long) 6) Profit.
"Profit" being an 0-5 loss against #1 Samsung Zerg?
Good job solar. wish there was a way to figure out if the person offering was someone important, don't think its firecake.. using his own name lol, that would be silly, or have we been meta'd?
Omg, after the updates, I'm 100% sure that was the real FireCake! He planned this all 100 moves ahead, and was using this drama to set up a showmatch between him and Solar. I bet in the dysmal alternate reality where Solar actually accepts the offer FireCake would've just bailed cause he just wanted to play a showmatch with Solar and not drop 2k on a match he probably doesn't care too much about. FireCake learned Korean specifically for this stunt.
Hello. I was the fake Stabilo. You have been trolled. Congratulation. But im not the guy on FB, it was just a coincidence. Of course, Firecake is innoncent. People are just so credulous lol.....
On May 19 2014 23:55 bapor wrote: Hello. I was the fake Stabilo. You have been trolled. Congratulation.
I don't think I remember an instance where a troll worked less in the history of the internet.
Considering you put all your heart into creating the best possible fake you could create... I think it says something about your talent, sir.
it's not very difficult, really, to start a rumor and convince a few people that something bad might be true. great and effective trolls are a form of satire which expose flaws in people's way of thinking; this type of troll is more similar to smacking someone in the face and saying "ha! you got smacked in the face!" there's no nuance or intelligence to it. just meaningless chaos from a bored soul
EPT![[image loading]](http://nimage.dailygame.co.kr/phpwas/restmb_idxmake.php?idx=3&simg=2014051708015013936_20140517080317_2.jpg)
Punchline ESC
![[image loading]](http://eu.media4.battle.net/cms/gallery/LWHDA3IQMF7H1342009221176.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://cnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2010/04/22/312277d6-f0fc-11e2-8c7c-d4ae52e62bcc/51887390ec3bc7e7237d73facbcad948/savior3.jpg)
