On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
I don't understand your post. You say "nothing came out in public," but I just told you Life tweeted. You realize Twitter is public? https://twitter.com/Startale_Life I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. Do some research before making ridiculous claims. If you're calling the players liars, there's not much I can do to help you. Other than to tell you, Life and others have no reason to lie.
On March 17 2014 23:55 Phaenoman wrote: Abusing the sound and not mentioning a word, but having a disadvantage in another game where ur opponent uses it and then complaining about it... this is just stupid and proves the lack of sportsmanship. I have to agree with Nachtwind here. What u say makes no sense to me, TRaFFIC.
So, according to you, every single time there are "bad" playing conditions the player needs to complain and/or forfeit. Otherwise, they will never be able to complain again?
Nani was playing LOL the night before. He wanted to cheese his way through the tournament. Hard to do without soundproofing.
No, according to me Naniwa has been abusing this situation. And now that it worked against him in the recent match he started complaining about it. Why didn't he mention this vs Flash? Why now, when he is at a disadvantage?
I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall a player going out of his way after a match to fess up that he gained knowledge due to bad sound proofing -- or if a player did, it's an extremely rare occurrence. A player might acknowledge it if theyre asked in an interview, but no one or very few are going to go out of their way unprovoked. And no one is going to blame them.
At any rate you're making it sound like Nani is maliciously abusing the lack of sound proofing. It's not his prerogative to report it every time it happens. Theres nothing wrong with him reporting it for his own gain. If there really was an issue with sound proofing, it's the fault of the tournament organizers for putting the players in that position. If you're going to hold Nani to that level of credibility and transparency you're going to be sorely disappointed with the rest of the sc2 scene.
Way way back in the GSL Open, Jinro admitted in a post-game interview that he figured Idra was up to something based on the fact that he heard something from the crowd.
On March 17 2014 23:55 Phaenoman wrote: Abusing the sound and not mentioning a word, but having a disadvantage in another game where ur opponent uses it and then complaining about it... this is just stupid and proves the lack of sportsmanship. I have to agree with Nachtwind here. What u say makes no sense to me, TRaFFIC.
So, according to you, every single time there are "bad" playing conditions the player needs to complain and/or forfeit. Otherwise, they will never be able to complain again?
Nani was playing LOL the night before. He wanted to cheese his way through the tournament. Hard to do without soundproofing.
No, according to me Naniwa has been abusing this situation. And now that it worked against him in the recent match he started complaining about it. Why didn't he mention this vs Flash? Why now, when he is at a disadvantage?
I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall a player going out of his way after a match to fess up that he gained knowledge due to bad sound proofing -- or if a player did, it's an extremely rare occurrence. A player might acknowledge it if theyre asked in an interview, but no one or very few are going to go out of their way unprovoked. And no one is going to blame them.
At any rate you're making it sound like Nani is maliciously abusing the lack of sound proofing. It's not his prerogative to report it every time it happens. Theres nothing wrong with him reporting it for his own gain. If there really was an issue with sound proofing, it's the fault of the tournament organizers for putting the players in that position. If you're going to hold Nani to that level of credibility and transparency you're going to be sorely disappointed with the rest of the sc2 scene.
Way way back in the GSL Open, Jinro admitted in a post-game interview that he figured Idra was up to something based on the fact that he heard something from the crowd.
On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
I don't understand your post. You say "nothing came out in public," but I just told you Life tweeted. You realize Twitter is public? https://twitter.com/Startale_Life I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. Do some research before making ridiculous claims. If you're calling the players liars, there's not much I can do to help you. Other than to tell you, Life and others have no reason to lie.
When I said "nothing came out in public" I also mean "officially" as in addressing the problem directly to ESL when they asked the players whether they have problems or not. Or came out later to officially say about problem.
I read Life's tweet but I am not sure whether it is related or not due to it is being posted on 14th March, which he did not play on that date (his match was on 15/03). The date on twitter might be incorrectly for me due to different time zone though.
IIRC, Life was supposed to play on the 14th, but for some reason they decided to roll over the final RO16 match (Life vs Rogue) for the next day. I remember Twitch chat going crazy for a little bit when the stream overlay dropped the news on everyone.
It seems likely that the decision had something to do with Life's response to the noise, but maybe the venue was running short on time and decided to pack it up early? Can't really say for sure.
On March 18 2014 01:40 loft wrote: Kaelaris put it best,"it's naniwas choice whether to forfeit or not."
He obviously knew that he had no chance and was emotional about getting proxy scouted.
its a fairly simple, yet stupid, situation first off, everybody knows Naniwa is a whiny kid, he acts like he's 12 years old. second off, Starcraft tournaments have had soundproofing issues FOR YEARS NOW....its not that freakin' hard! and finally, players that consistently cheese aren't deserving of respect, to f*ck around with cheese-rushes in high-end tournaments is disrespectful not only to themselves, opponents, and organizers, but most importantly to the fans
On March 18 2014 01:40 loft wrote: Kaelaris put it best,"it's naniwas choice whether to forfeit or not."
He obviously knew that he had no chance and was emotional about getting proxy scouted.
its a fairly simple, yet stupid, situation first off, everybody knows Naniwa is a whiny kid, he acts like he's 12 years old. second off, Starcraft tournaments have had soundproofing issues FOR YEARS NOW....its not that freakin' hard! and finally, players that consistently cheese aren't deserving of respect, to f*ck around with cheese-rushes in high-end tournaments is disrespectful not only to themselves, opponents, and organizers, but most importantly to the fans
On March 18 2014 01:40 loft wrote: Kaelaris put it best,"it's naniwas choice whether to forfeit or not."
He obviously knew that he had no chance and was emotional about getting proxy scouted.
its a fairly simple, yet stupid, situation first off, everybody knows Naniwa is a whiny kid, he acts like he's 12 years old. second off, Starcraft tournaments have had soundproofing issues FOR YEARS NOW....its not that freakin' hard! and finally, players that consistently cheese aren't deserving of respect, to f*ck around with cheese-rushes in high-end tournaments is disrespectful not only to themselves, opponents, and organizers, but most importantly to the fans
I was with him until he said cheesing is disrespectful to the fans lol. fans in general love a risky allin build in a series.
On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
I don't understand your post. You say "nothing came out in public," but I just told you Life tweeted. You realize Twitter is public? https://twitter.com/Startale_Life I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. Do some research before making ridiculous claims. If you're calling the players liars, there's not much I can do to help you. Other than to tell you, Life and others have no reason to lie.
When I said "nothing came out in public" I also mean "officially" as in addressing the problem directly to ESL when they asked the players whether they have problems or not. Or came out later to officially say about problem.
I read Life's tweet but I am not sure whether it is related or not due to it is being posted on 14th March, which he did not play on that date (his match was on 15/03). The date on twitter might be incorrectly for me due to different time zone though.
Life's tweet had nothing to do with this. Life vs Rogue was initially not going to be on the main stage, so it wasn't going to be played in the booth. The area where they wanted them to play was apparently very noisy, so he complained about it. In the end they postponed the match to the next day and played it on stage in the booths, and no one complained about the soundproofing.
On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
I don't understand your post. You say "nothing came out in public," but I just told you Life tweeted. You realize Twitter is public? https://twitter.com/Startale_Life I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. Do some research before making ridiculous claims. If you're calling the players liars, there's not much I can do to help you. Other than to tell you, Life and others have no reason to lie.
When I said "nothing came out in public" I also mean "officially" as in addressing the problem directly to ESL when they asked the players whether they have problems or not. Or came out later to officially say about problem.
I read Life's tweet but I am not sure whether it is related or not due to it is being posted on 14th March, which he did not play on that date (his match was on 15/03). The date on twitter might be incorrectly for me due to different time zone though.
Life's tweet had nothing to do with this. Life vs Rogue was initially not going to be on the main stage, so it wasn't going to be played in the booth. The area where they wanted them to play was apparently very noisy, so he complained about it. In the end they postponed the match to the next day and played it on stage in the booths, and no one complained about the soundproofing.
Yeah, that's what I think too. So pretty much no one complained about the soundproofing except Naniwa.
On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
I don't understand your post. You say "nothing came out in public," but I just told you Life tweeted. You realize Twitter is public? https://twitter.com/Startale_Life I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. Do some research before making ridiculous claims. If you're calling the players liars, there's not much I can do to help you. Other than to tell you, Life and others have no reason to lie.
When I said "nothing came out in public" I also mean "officially" as in addressing the problem directly to ESL when they asked the players whether they have problems or not. Or came out later to officially say about problem.
I read Life's tweet but I am not sure whether it is related or not due to it is being posted on 14th March, which he did not play on that date (his match was on 15/03). The date on twitter might be incorrectly for me due to different time zone though.
Life's tweet had nothing to do with this. Life vs Rogue was initially not going to be on the main stage, so it wasn't going to be played in the booth. The area where they wanted them to play was apparently very noisy, so he complained about it. In the end they postponed the match to the next day and played it on stage in the booths, and no one complained about the soundproofing.
yep, this is correct. Life tweeted that he wanted the main stage as well(that same tweet). It had nothing to do with soundproofing and such. Also, as mentioned, other players haven't mentioned much on this sound issue.
This leads me to believe that he used it as an excuse to forfeit his matches. It's too bad though. I opened the stream to see what's up and such and knew he was retiring(I think lol) and just happened to open it as Polt was building the bunker so I saw what transpired. He should've just played his games, lost 0-3 in decent fashion then walked out and bowed or did something to thank the fans considering he's retiring. I think most people would've greatly increased their opinion of him, he would've gotten a lot of cheers instead of the booing and wouldn't have had to face the backlash meaning if he returns, most would want him back and such. Instead, he ended up imo being disrespectful to his opponent and everyone else. Either way, best of luck to him!
On March 17 2014 23:55 Phaenoman wrote: Abusing the sound and not mentioning a word, but having a disadvantage in another game where ur opponent uses it and then complaining about it... this is just stupid and proves the lack of sportsmanship. I have to agree with Nachtwind here. What u say makes no sense to me, TRaFFIC.
So, according to you, every single time there are "bad" playing conditions the player needs to complain and/or forfeit. Otherwise, they will never be able to complain again?
Nani was playing LOL the night before. He wanted to cheese his way through the tournament. Hard to do without soundproofing.
No, according to me Naniwa has been abusing this situation. And now that it worked against him in the recent match he started complaining about it. Why didn't he mention this vs Flash? Why now, when he is at a disadvantage?
I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall a player going out of his way after a match to fess up that he gained knowledge due to bad sound proofing -- or if a player did, it's an extremely rare occurrence. A player might acknowledge it if theyre asked in an interview, but no one or very few are going to go out of their way unprovoked. And no one is going to blame them.
At any rate you're making it sound like Nani is maliciously abusing the lack of sound proofing. It's not his prerogative to report it every time it happens. Theres nothing wrong with him reporting it for his own gain. If there really was an issue with sound proofing, it's the fault of the tournament organizers for putting the players in that position. If you're going to hold Nani to that level of credibility and transparency you're going to be sorely disappointed with the rest of the sc2 scene.
Way way back in the GSL Open, Jinro admitted in a post-game interview that he figured Idra was up to something based on the fact that he heard something from the crowd.
It's difficult for players to complain and poo poo over the event especially when its running. Its just bad politics for everyone involved and more often than not there is a sense of peer pressure to play along and accept these issues. I know, I've been to a number of tournaments and sat in the booths with the headsets and you can hear music and the muffled crowd especially if a players sounds aren't high and without music.
Its pretty much impossible to have a full sound proof booth without changing air pressure and minimizing vibrations. Alternative is to play negative noise but hugely expensive to do and I'm not sure it's feasible.
Now I believe Naniwai when he says there were sound issues but
Naniwai's decision to forfeit was a huge gamble and walking out on stage like that made it worse. We know he didn't prepare and we also know he wanted out of this game after IEM so the sound issue is pretty much a saving face excuse which backfired and even though I believe him on that issue what he doesn't realize is that if he had won it are we to believe he would make the same comments? probably not.
This exit probably tops IdrA's from the game by quite a bit. Thanks for the stories Naniwai!
IEM didn't even have booths back in the early days and bo
On March 18 2014 15:46 baubo wrote: So what's the reason for all the soundproof issues at tournaments again? Is it really that costly to build a booth that can withstand the sound of a large audience?
No one else complained about the soundproof issue and the staffs even tested the booth afterward and the soundproof worked fine. sOs is not even fazed to use the same kind of proxy in his finals too. I am not sure whether we can really take Naniwa's word about this issue.
Humans have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. This is totally wrong. Startale Life tweeted "angry iem" and "very big sound ; i want open brackets stage." I heard rumours of other players talking out as well. Do you REALLY think Nani would write to his 40k followers a blatant lie, that Polt COULD hear the crowd. Polt could easily respond saying it's not true.
To be clear, I'm fine with it. I'd rather have big crowds showing up and the players deal with it.
People did and do tell a blatant lie to more than 40k people before so I don't really think that this is really an argument. There are no conclusive evidences to support that there is a soundproof issue at the event.
You said you heard a rumor about other player talking out about this issue, but noting came out to public so I hold my doubt about that rumor for now, unless people start to come out and complain openly, like what many players did when GSL has soundproofing problem. Until then, the majority of "circumstantial" evidence seems to point out that there is no soundproofing issue.
I don't understand your post. You say "nothing came out in public," but I just told you Life tweeted. You realize Twitter is public? https://twitter.com/Startale_Life I shouldn't have to do your homework for you. Do some research before making ridiculous claims. If you're calling the players liars, there's not much I can do to help you. Other than to tell you, Life and others have no reason to lie.
When I said "nothing came out in public" I also mean "officially" as in addressing the problem directly to ESL when they asked the players whether they have problems or not. Or came out later to officially say about problem.
I read Life's tweet but I am not sure whether it is related or not due to it is being posted on 14th March, which he did not play on that date (his match was on 15/03). The date on twitter might be incorrectly for me due to different time zone though.
Life's tweet had nothing to do with this. Life vs Rogue was initially not going to be on the main stage, so it wasn't going to be played in the booth. The area where they wanted them to play was apparently very noisy, so he complained about it. In the end they postponed the match to the next day and played it on stage in the booths, and no one complained about the soundproofing.
yep, this is correct. Life tweeted that he wanted the main stage as well(that same tweet). It had nothing to do with soundproofing and such. Also, as mentioned, other players haven't mentioned much on this sound issue.
This leads me to believe that he used it as an excuse to forfeit his matches. It's too bad though. I opened the stream to see what's up and such and knew he was retiring(I think lol) and just happened to open it as Polt was building the bunker so I saw what transpired. He should've just played his games, lost 0-3 in decent fashion then walked out and bowed or did something to thank the fans considering he's retiring. I think most people would've greatly increased their opinion of him, he would've gotten a lot of cheers instead of the booing and wouldn't have had to face the backlash meaning if he returns, most would want him back and such. Instead, he ended up imo being disrespectful to his opponent and everyone else. Either way, best of luck to him!
On March 18 2014 01:40 loft wrote: Kaelaris put it best,"it's naniwas choice whether to forfeit or not."
He obviously knew that he had no chance and was emotional about getting proxy scouted.
its a fairly simple, yet stupid, situation first off, everybody knows Naniwa is a whiny kid, he acts like he's 12 years old. second off, Starcraft tournaments have had soundproofing issues FOR YEARS NOW....its not that freakin' hard! and finally, players that consistently cheese aren't deserving of respect, to f*ck around with cheese-rushes in high-end tournaments is disrespectful not only to themselves, opponents, and organizers, but most importantly to the fans
Yeah, sOs was incredibly disrespectful to every single person in esports for cheesing two times in a row vs herO in the finals. He's not worthy of the first place. Shame on him.
On March 18 2014 01:40 loft wrote: Kaelaris put it best,"it's naniwas choice whether to forfeit or not."
He obviously knew that he had no chance and was emotional about getting proxy scouted.
its a fairly simple, yet stupid, situation first off, everybody knows Naniwa is a whiny kid, he acts like he's 12 years old. second off, Starcraft tournaments have had soundproofing issues FOR YEARS NOW....its not that freakin' hard! and finally, players that consistently cheese aren't deserving of respect, to f*ck around with cheese-rushes in high-end tournaments is disrespectful not only to themselves, opponents, and organizers, but most importantly to the fans
Yeah, sOs was incredibly disrespectful to every single person in esports for cheesing two times in a row vs herO in the finals. He's not worthy of the first place. Shame on him.
Yep. 100,000 dollar bills ya'll.
Shame doesn't even enter the equation if I'm in his shoes.
On March 18 2014 01:40 loft wrote: Kaelaris put it best,"it's naniwas choice whether to forfeit or not."
He obviously knew that he had no chance and was emotional about getting proxy scouted.
its a fairly simple, yet stupid, situation first off, everybody knows Naniwa is a whiny kid, he acts like he's 12 years old. second off, Starcraft tournaments have had soundproofing issues FOR YEARS NOW....its not that freakin' hard! and finally, players that consistently cheese aren't deserving of respect, to f*ck around with cheese-rushes in high-end tournaments is disrespectful not only to themselves, opponents, and organizers, but most importantly to the fans
Cheese itself is not the issue in the slightest, and is not a measure of respect. It's just a tool. What isn't deserving of respect is stupid childish demeanor, disgusting and for which he should be publicly "crucified" for the longest time. I never liked him, mostly because that idea of "personality" repulses me instead of being interesting.
I am still waiting for a response from Alliance. Bottom line: This is unacceptable. The defense he gets blows my mind!!! I don't have to be an "anti-fan" to think what Naniwa did was wrong on SO many levels. Grow up Naniwa. You won't be missed
EPT
