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How do you not get bored of debating the same thing over and over again
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 04 2014 05:04 Talin wrote:
How do you not get bored of debating the same thing over and over again
Because reasons
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On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:?
I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons.
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If the GSTL were to come back somehow (which I doubt) I hope the partnership gets revived. I wonder what's going to happen with rent/accommodation of Acer players. Oh how I wish there could be a unified team league. Not seeing teams like AxA or Startale compete in a team league is going to be quite a void. I hope ATC and the SC2L are continued next year and that they do well.
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On January 04 2014 04:54 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:43 WetSocks wrote:On January 04 2014 04:27 tshi wrote:
shame, it's two of the best foreign teams : ( TB himself calls Axiom a Korean team Haha that's cute.
No it's more semantic's than anything...
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On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons.
Go on, what have you got against it? Personally I think such mutually beneficial agreements are great for the game. It would be interesting to see your reasons for the contrary.
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On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons.
That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious.
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On January 04 2014 05:16 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons. That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious.
Rather than repeat myself let's revisit some old quotes:
On August 27 2013 01:45 StarStruck wrote:I'm honestly getting tired of talks of partnerships between teams. They should be able to stand on their own.
On December 22 2013 00:30 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2013 22:43 StarStruck wrote:On December 21 2013 21:18 Ammanas wrote:On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote:
It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT
KT
Samsung
CJ
JinAir
IM
MVP
Prime
AxA
ST
Azubu
FXO
oh god it would be beautiful too much dead wood imo :p more like: SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^ I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds. And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with.
Small sample but I think you get the idea.
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On January 04 2014 04:13 -niL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 03:56 GumBa wrote:Was great while it lasted :D Hope Acer partners with a kespa team and Inno and MMA can play in PL  AcerSKT
If that happened you might as well end Proleague and award SKT the title now
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On January 04 2014 05:29 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:13 -niL wrote:On January 04 2014 03:56 GumBa wrote:Was great while it lasted :D Hope Acer partners with a kespa team and Inno and MMA can play in PL AcerSKT If that happened you might as well end Proleague and award SKT the title now
As if a partnership would change anything in that matter
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On January 04 2014 05:29 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:13 -niL wrote:On January 04 2014 03:56 GumBa wrote:Was great while it lasted :D Hope Acer partners with a kespa team and Inno and MMA can play in PL AcerSKT If that happened you might as well end Proleague and award SKT the title now
Technically the Telecom roster should be good enough to win it now. Anything less would be an underachievement. They should at least be able to make it to Grand Finals with the boys playing the way they are.
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Anything less is always an underachievement.
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On January 04 2014 05:40 Talin wrote:
Anything less is always an underachievement.
Specifically in their case because they're usually in the hunt. Last season I'd agree because several of their players under performed.
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On January 04 2014 05:26 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:16 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons. That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious. Rather than repeat myself let's revisit some old quotes: Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 01:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 27 2013 00:57 TheSayo182 wrote:
why not AX-Acer to proleague? I'm honestly getting tired of talks of partnerships between teams. They should be able to stand on their own. Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 00:30 blackone wrote:On December 21 2013 22:43 StarStruck wrote:On December 21 2013 21:18 Ammanas wrote:On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote:
It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT
KT
Samsung
CJ
JinAir
IM
MVP
Prime
AxA
ST
Azubu
FXO
oh god it would be beautiful too much dead wood imo :p more like: SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^ I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds. And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with. Small sample but I think you get the idea.
Idk which thread this comes from (hence I haven't read the context) but I mostly agree with this.
For ex., while I do love to see HerO at PL I also feel bad for the IM players that won't get their spot because of him. I also don't see IM-TL quite as a partnership, it's more like a "lend me a player please". Same would be if a Kespa team partners with EG to have Jaedong, or with Mouz to have Dear.
Also I think the team loses some identity in this way. Think of your favourite <insert any sport here> team... if they borrow a top tier player and win a championship, it doesn't feel the same as winning it by their own, neither for the fans nor for the players.
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On January 04 2014 05:26 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:16 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons. That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious. Rather than repeat myself let's revisit some old quotes: Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 01:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 27 2013 00:57 TheSayo182 wrote:
why not AX-Acer to proleague? I'm honestly getting tired of talks of partnerships between teams. They should be able to stand on their own. Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 00:30 blackone wrote:On December 21 2013 22:43 StarStruck wrote:On December 21 2013 21:18 Ammanas wrote:On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote:
It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT
KT
Samsung
CJ
JinAir
IM
MVP
Prime
AxA
ST
Azubu
FXO
oh god it would be beautiful too much dead wood imo :p more like: SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^ I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds. And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with. Small sample but I think you get the idea.
Fair points. I also wish there was more emphasis on teamleagues in the scene, but there's a vicious cycle that we have. With so little emphasis and attention on team leagues, teams often find it financially unfeasible to have massive rosters, instead opting to have leaner rosters. This also makes it harder for teams to participate in team leagues due to their small rosters, which hurts the team leagues if teams cannot participate. Thus, with less teams, the teamleagues do not get as much attention and the cycle continues.
We saw how GSTL fell apart due to lack of teams, and even PL has not had an easy time getting the teams for each season. In the foreign scene, the ATC has implemented the joker and revive rule to help leaner teams survive. The teamleagues need teams to participate badly, which is why partnerships are allowed so that more teams can join. Partnerships may be a necessary evil in that regard.
I understand what you mean. Branding must also be taken into consideration when doing a potential partnership. I personally thought the Axiom-Acer partnership made sense as the Axiom and Acer cultures seemed to mesh well together, and many members of the team had been ex-Slayers teammates. On the the other hand, I hated the EG-TL partnership, because it really ruined the greatest rivalry in foreign Starcraft 2, and all we got in exchange was getting to see EG-TL get embarrassed in PL.
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So did MMA and Innovation get kicked out of the house?
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Not surprising, but unfortunate. That combined roster was MONSTROUS.
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Pro League has started already. So seeing AxiomAcer in Pro League is not going to happen this year. Also it is very expensive for teams to play in Pro League and require players to live in Korea almost full time. So no WCS NA/EU players can play in Pro League. It is a damn shame about GSTL though, a very good alternative to Pro League. Just another nail in the coffin for SC2 in Korea 
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote:
Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team.
the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners.
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Sweden7978 Posts
On January 04 2014 08:11 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote:
Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team. the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners.
Fair enough. However, by that reasoning, I will hereby declare Acer to be a Canadian team.
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EPT
