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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On January 04 2014 08:20 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:11 opterown wrote:On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote:
Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team. the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners. Fair enough. However, by that reasoning, I will hereby declare Acer to be a Canadian team.
not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank"
along this train of thought, alliance is generally considered a swedish team, despite EG management and having non-swedish players too, because most people's first thoughts are "naniwa" or their dota 2 team.
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Well in that case their most visible and prolific players are Swedish so it makes sense. I only really care about the players when I make distinctions about a team, if a team with foreigner management recruits 3-4 top Koreans to steamroll the competition, I do not consider that a foreign team.
And I will insist on calling Acer Canadian from here on out. Nerchio will now be required to get a maple leaf tattoo covering his back. Innovation can get one on his nose, that way the tattoos will be of roughly equivalent size.
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On January 04 2014 08:22 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:20 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 08:11 opterown wrote:On January 04 2014 04:47 Squat wrote:
Saying Axiom is not a Korean team because TB and Genna are foreigners is like saying the English national football team was Swedish because they had a Swedish coach. The players are Korean, live in Korea and practice vs other Koreans. They are a Korean team. the thing with axiom is that it's strongly associated with TB. when someone says "hey axiom is playing tonight" my first thought is usually not "cool, ryung and crank yay," it's more often "hey that's TB's team." because the association between axiom and TB is so strong, people generally view axiom as a foreign team. english premier league teams, however, have a rich history of competing in england so my first thought of them is not of the swedish or russian or UAE owners. Fair enough. However, by that reasoning, I will hereby declare Acer to be a Canadian team. not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank" along this train of thought, alliance is generally considered a swedish team, despite EG management and having non-swedish players too, because most people's first thoughts are "naniwa" or their dota 2 team.
Yeah exactly. ANd when I think TotalBiscuit, I think of foreigner (not just cuz he's from Britan lol! He lives in America right? America is foreign, I guess.
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On January 04 2014 05:26 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:16 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons. That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious. Rather than repeat myself let's revisit some old quotes: Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 01:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 27 2013 00:57 TheSayo182 wrote:
why not AX-Acer to proleague? I'm honestly getting tired of talks of partnerships between teams. They should be able to stand on their own. Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 00:30 blackone wrote:On December 21 2013 22:43 StarStruck wrote:On December 21 2013 21:18 Ammanas wrote:On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote:
It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT
KT
Samsung
CJ
JinAir
IM
MVP
Prime
AxA
ST
Azubu
FXO
oh god it would be beautiful too much dead wood imo :p more like: SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^ I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds. And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with. Small sample but I think you get the idea.
yep i agree, either axiom and acer join proleague or they dont. They dont need to join together like they are one team. Its not fair to the other teams.
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makes sense, too bad though
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On January 04 2014 08:45 skatblast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:26 StarStruck wrote:On January 04 2014 05:16 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 05:14 StarStruck wrote:On January 04 2014 05:03 Bagration wrote:On January 04 2014 04:36 StarStruck wrote:
Joy to the World. ? I think I've made it abundantly clear over the last couple of months that I'm not a big fan of these sort of partnerships for several reasons. That's news to me actually. Could you explain your reasons? I'm genuinely curious. Rather than repeat myself let's revisit some old quotes: On August 27 2013 01:45 StarStruck wrote:On August 27 2013 00:57 TheSayo182 wrote:
why not AX-Acer to proleague? I'm honestly getting tired of talks of partnerships between teams. They should be able to stand on their own. On December 22 2013 00:30 blackone wrote:On December 21 2013 22:43 StarStruck wrote:On December 21 2013 21:18 Ammanas wrote:On December 21 2013 20:48 lichter wrote:
It would be such a dream come true to get them all on Proleague
SKT
KT
Samsung
CJ
JinAir
IM
MVP
Prime
AxA
ST
Azubu
FXO
oh god it would be beautiful too much dead wood imo :p more like: SKT KT Samsung (absorbing azubu players) CJ JinAir IM MVP Prime AxA ST Prime+fOU someone to partner with mouz for Dear, EG for Jaedong and TL for HerO ^^ I'm really beginning to loathe partnerships. Let me explain why. These players on Western teams can basically come and go as they please and get the best of both world's while the other players miss arguably more opportunities because their priority is to stay and play PL (yes, I realized it has gotten a little better over the years with more KeSPA players attending more events). Also, this goes back to the idea of hired mercs and this makes it two-fold. Remember what people were saying about Mouz with the announcement of Dear joining the team (cudos to Mouz for not making an announcement of an announcement some say) and now you have these guys getting all the luxuries in the World, keeping their prize money intact (look at guys like Jangbi) and being able to compete and get good training in PL. Not many downsides now is there? I think more choices should be made and it doesn't necessarily give the players on those teams competing in PL a vote of confidence either because the teams continue to outsource players to come play with them. You deprive someone already on your roster exposure and experience when they could benefit more from it. :V Every big name on the market would want to go to a Western team under this structure and try to get a partnership with a KeSPA team unless the KeSPA teams throw a stupid amount of money at the player. These players get the best of both worlds. And it devalues the idea of a team league. The point isn't to showcase the best players, that's what individual leagues are for. Proleague is supposed to be a contest between teams, so I don't think they should just tack on the best non-kespa players to some random team they have no connection with. Small sample but I think you get the idea. yep i agree, either axiom and acer join proleague or they dont. They dont need to join together like they are one team. Its not fair to the other teams.
This whole "not fair to other teams" thing is laughable. You think it's as easy as just getting a bunch of good players together in one place and then just steamrolling Proleague? Look how well that worked out for EGTL... Axiom-Acer was a legitimate team coached under the same roof with a singular purpose. We did not have the absolute best individual players, it was not a supergroup filled with GSL and WCS champions. No, those were the other teams, the ones we beat over and over again because we were the most cohesive and well-rounded team in that league. Axiom-Acer was not a marriage of convenience and it's infuriating to see people discredit the hard work our players put in over some ridiculous technicality. What on earth is with this whole fairness thing anyway? So if I just bought MMA and Innovation then it would have been fair? Is it fair that a bunch of the eSFs best players got poached by KeSPA teams? Is it fair to the foreign teams when someone like Mousesports picks up Dear? Who gets to judge what is "fair"?
Winning team leagues is a hell of a lot more than just having good players, it's about having a good team and frankly outside of Proleague? There wasn't anyone on Axiom-Acers level and I doubt there ever will be again. Hell outside of Acer themselves as we saw during ATC, there wasn't even anyone on Axioms level.
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On January 04 2014 09:49 -RusH wrote:
Acer > Axiom.
This is a pretty great troll post right here. Just throw that shit out there and let people take sides, the argument will start on its own. You don't even need to do any work or prove your point, other posters will do that for you. I give it a 7/10 trolls.
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Hmm. your'e absolutely right. gl to both teams.
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WCS killing teams...again.
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On January 04 2014 10:06 aeligos wrote:
WCS killing teams...again.
What does WCS have to do with it? Aside from the obvious that we don't really wanna do Proleague because it would interfere with playing in WCS, WCS is not the reason GSTL went tits up.
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Blaming WCS for the Korean scene imploding is just incorrect. And neither is it because of LoL, if anything LoL is subsidizing starcraft in Korea right now.
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On January 04 2014 08:22 opterown wrote:
not everyone's first thought is scarlett - i'd say a significant number will think MMA, or Bogus, or Acer the computer company as well. for axiom though, i'd wager almost everyone thinks "TB" before "crank"
I definitely think Scarlett and that shit talker guy, but that's because i focus on players, like one should, and when it comes to foreign teams recruiting Koreans it always feels like they're token Koreans to gain legitimacy/results. That sounds harsh i don't intend it to be so, but it's a common if not standard thing. Every team has them. Liquid Hero/Taeja, EG with all theirs, Acer's Bogus/MMA, Mouz.Dear, SK.MC, the list probably goes on but i'm not playing that game i quit it's too hard. Point is these are foreign teams bolstering their stocks with strong Koreans.
Axiom by contrast was always created as a Korean team. Look at the roster, there was no bolstering. Watch the original interviews and listen to the words and intent of the owners from day one. It's clear as the day what this team was created as. But if you want to be super crude, like most seem to want to when saying 'Axiom = TB = Foreign', then it's just as easily 'SlayerS + new owner'. If replacing Boxer with The Bains is enough to convert a team's entire being from Korean to Foreign - if all it takes for people to ignore context is to have a really loud and visible mouthpiece, then that's, i dunno. That's just such a simplistic way of viewing things, i can't even slow down my brain to comprehend that. It's a label, it's form over substance.
It's understandable though that people don't pay any attention to Axiom and instead focus on TB. Shit, i don't pay any attention to other teams, so i'm not gonna act like i know anything about them. TB is pretty loud and difficult to ignore, i imagine. But we should be talking about a team here, not one man. I thought we, wise esports consumers who don't overreact to things at all, were meant to be smarter than that.
That does fit in well with and i agree with StarStruck's dislike of partnerships. Sure i enjoyed the AxA thing, lots of players i really like ya ya ya champions woo :3 :3 :3 A fun thing but i want some stability in this scene and i want more team leagues. Even AxA and TLEG were DEFINTIELY NOT marriages of convenience and as was to be expected their time was limited. How can you invest energy into the scene when things change so much? It's really lame and i'd probably find it lamer if i watched BW and got to enjoy proleague in all its glorious glory. I'm almost glad i don't have that as a point of comparison!
I don't see it being addressed easily either since the global nature prevents it. TB's own (paraphrased) words - PL prevents WCS participation. StarStruck's excellent posts sum the whole thing up well. Players cannot be locked down into one region long term. Travel is too harsh, and they miss out on foreign tournament cash ins. I want there to be another strong team league to encourage roster stability and consistency and thus increase my ability to invest in teams and rivalries but i can't see how it could happen. Regular GSTL carnival style events? The PL format is so much more epic though. I'm at a loss, it's a real shame.
edit: sick clarification edit sorry plz dont hurt me
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Now it's time for Prime-Axiom 
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On January 04 2014 11:03 aike wrote:Now it's time for Prime-Axiom
Yeah that ain't gonna happen unless we somehow take ownership of Primes entire roster. Axiom-Acer worked because it was one team under one coach in one training style under one roof. Primes coach has entirely different ideas, you can't run a Proleague team that way with 2 disparate halves.
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I wonder if Acer players in Korea's moving...
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On January 04 2014 11:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:Yeah that ain't gonna happen unless we somehow take ownership of Primes entire roster. Axiom-Acer worked because it was one team under one coach in one training style under one roof. Primes coach has entirely different ideas, you can't run a Proleague team that way with 2 disparate halves.
So what you're saying is you're buying Prime? 
THEY NEED YOUR HELP, JOHN!
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On January 04 2014 11:47 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 11:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 04 2014 11:03 aike wrote:Now it's time for Prime-Axiom Yeah that ain't gonna happen unless we somehow take ownership of Primes entire roster. Axiom-Acer worked because it was one team under one coach in one training style under one roof. Primes coach has entirely different ideas, you can't run a Proleague team that way with 2 disparate halves. So what you're saying is you're buying Prime? THEY NEED YOUR HELP, JOHN!
1. Buy Prime
2. Add Axiom's players into the Prime roster
3. Release all of Prime's players
4. Axiom has effectively replaced Prime in Proleague
5. Profit?
:p
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I think everything except the profit part looks doable.
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On January 04 2014 12:02 Squat wrote:
I think everything except the profit part looks doable.
This guy gets it
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EPT
