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Welcome this month's edition of the top 50 streamers list. 
Table of contents
Huh? What's this?
For those of you who don't already know what this is about: I'm gathering various data (viewers, game, events, etc.) from all the streams that are presented on teamliquid.net (those that you can in the sidebar to your right) and use that data to produce the pretty tables and graphs you see below. The tables only contain SC2 players (that is, streams of people playing games of Starcraft 2) and not casters, teams or other streams. The tables also only contain Starcraft 2 related activities. So, for instance when CatZ is streaming Dota2, it will not be taken into account.
The data I gather is then turned into the tables you see below. One is sorted by the average viewers, the other is sorted by the average viewers times the hours streamed. The latter table favors those that stream a lot, while the former table favors popular streamers regardless of how much they stream. Either ranking has its advantages and disadvantages, and thus I present both.
For either table, I have a minimum required stream time of 5 hours to be included in the list.
The list
Due to space limitations, I have to shorten the headers and leave some data out of the tables presented here. You can get the full tables from the links below.
The headers aren't as clear as I'd like them to be thanks to this, so here's a quick explanation, just in case: "Viewers" denotes the average viewers in the given month. "Hours" are the hours played. "Place diff" and "Viewer diff" are the place and viewer differences compared to last month.
Also, the HTML version linked beneath the images has some more information that I had to leave out due to space limitation, most notably the featured status of the players.
Also also, go and check out Fuzic! Stijn created the awesome looking website with all kinds of stream viewership data. It's much better suited for immediate numbers and analyzing numbers from singular events. Also, it's way prettier than anything I could've ever design. (Note that his project is completely independent from mine, so if you have any questions about it, please ask him and not me.  )
Now, Without further ado, here's this month's tables:
Stray observations and musings
- Congratulations, Destiny, for taking the number one spot in both lists! Now what does it say about the current state of SC2 when a (probably still) retired player gets more viewers than professional SC2 players? Does that mean that the fans prefer an entertainer over a professional? Or did Destiny just bring his regular fanbase over to SC2? Well, we can count out the latter: Last month, Destiny got an average of ~2000 viewers when playing LoL, over 1000 less than his average SC2 viewership. So his good viewer numbers cannot be explained by his fan base alone. Perhaps a more light hearted, entertaining approach to streaming is just what the people want to see.
- Grubby, TaeJa and White-Ra are the losers of last month, all losing a considerable amount of viewers.
- HuK gained a good amount, on the other hand, more than doubling his average viewership. Destiny also gained more than 500 viewers, of course.
- Congratulations to avilo, who finally managed to achieve his goal to get featured here on TL, and immediately climbed 16 spots on this month's list.
- Livinpink is the highest ranked streamer this time who is not yet featured. However, her numbers are from only one streaming session, and I am not 100% sure if she was actually playing during it, or perhaps casting some event. So if anyone actually happens to know what exactly she was streaming on the 5th/6th in the last month, please let me know!
- Also, thank you desRow for suggesting to include a "hour diff" column in the V*H table.
- Here's some information on some of the lesser known names in the lists:
 Hui:Hui is a Taiwanese player who is mostly playing in the TeSL. His fanbase seems to be found mostly outside of teamliquid and in the Taiwanese community, unsurprisingly.
- Tara Babcock: She's an, ahem, model. Google her.
 KingCobra: He's a Russian streamer and commentator, mostly playing daily and weekly cups.
- Notable absentees last month: Bomber, NaNiwa, Polt, Sen, StarDust, and Thorzain.
- If you find any mistakes or errors in the lists, please do let me know, especially concerning team changes or players that you are absolutely sure should be on the lists, but are not.
The big picture
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202013%2010.png) (The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
Note that these are player streams only.
There's not a whole lot to say here, as there has been very little change these past few months. Player streams are still significantly less popular ever since WCS kicked in, and I've hypothesized about the reasons for this in the last month's entry.
So let's have a look at the overall stream views instead. That includes players, casters and events, both major and minor. Note that I only include data from April 2013 onwards here, because the data from before then is incomplete (Major tournaments used to not stream on twitch or hide their live viewer numbers in general).
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202013%2010 all.png) (The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
As you can see, things do not look quite as doom and gloom here. Overall, the stream viewer numbers have been stable in the last couple of months, with the exception of a dip in numbers in September. Non-player streams seem to do reasonably well overall, so it really does appear that the viewers have migrated from watching player streams to watching, for the most part, WCS. Now whether that's a good thing or not probably depends a lot on whether you are a player making money from WCS, or from being a streamer..
WCS
The usual caveats applies:
- The numbers are only from twitch.tv.
- That means: No numbers from anyone watching on gomtv.net.
- No numbers from Chinese streaming sites.
- When there are multiple streams for one event, I will add them up only if they are different language streams. If they are the same language (OSL/GSL), I pick the stream with the higher average viewership.
Of course the really interesting numbers here are the WCS finals numbers. An average of ~64500 viewers is probably not quite as much as some would have hoped. We've had multiple big events in the past with >100.000 peak viewers, and the WCS finals did not even came close to a peak like that with a peak viewership of ~80.000. Let's have a closer look:
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Fuzic%2010%20WCS%20Finals%20D3.png) (Image courtesy of fuzic. Check out the full page here.)
As you can see, the viewership of the final day of the WCS finals has been quite stable. That's odd, considering that more people ought to be more interested in watching the grand final rather than the round of 8 of even the semi finals. It's easy to assume that the finals simply were not very interesting, but I'm fairly certain that this was not the case.
I've explained previously that by far the biggest audience for SC2 streams can be found in Europe. And the finals were held in Canada, at a time zone that was not quite ideal for the European viewership. My assumption therefore is that the Europeans having to go to bed (instead of watching the grand final at 3am in the morning) cancelled out the heightened interest in the grand final, leading to a stable viewership overall.
On the second day, viewership actually steadily declined during the event. Again, it's quite unlikely that the event was so horrid that people just stopped watching. If you want the maximum number of viewers, stream at a time convenient for Europeans. It's as simple as that.
GSTL vs. ATC
Not a whole lot to say here. ATC season 2 is doing quite well, while the GSTL is struggling somewhat.
So that's all for this month.
Hope you guys enjoyed, as always. Any kind of feedback is always welcome!
Older entries
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On November 02 2013 01:45 Conti wrote:
I've explained previously that by far the biggest audience for SC2 streams can be found in Europe. And the finals were held in Canada, at a time zone that was not quite ideal for the European viewership. My assumption therefore is that the Europeans having to go to bed (instead of watching the grand final at 3am in the morning)
Yeah, I don't know about anyone else, but I left after the 1-0 during the finals, and that gave me about 4 hours of sleep. I would have liked to see the rest live, but 4 hours is already pushing it.
On November 02 2013 01:45 Conti wrote:
If you want the maximum number of viewers, stream at a time convenient for Europeans. It's as simple as that.
Yes please! (Of course, it obviously doesn't work like that, and it would hardly be fair to everyone else.)
I've been reading these pretty much every month since you started, so I'll take this opportunity to thank you for your work, I find these stats to be pretty interesting.
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As always thanks for compiling these lists
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Finally we have stablized!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Hopefully the west coast time of BlizzCon will help europe viewers some.
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ProTech streamed 387 hours?
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Love the work here. Good job.
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Maybe change Artosis to ttesports instead of casting archon? Both are valid, but it's probably best to swap that?
edit: Top 100 Sexiest Streamers:
Mr Robinson x100
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I'm glad you came back with the total amount of viewers for both tournaments and personal streams, sc2 is doing well now if we can get WCS to lay off the around the clock streaming to give personal streamers a chance, this would be perfect !
Thanks again for your posts!
EDIT: I gifted you gold for including the overall sc2 numbers graph <3
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Small criticism. On the “total SC2 stream viewers by month” graph perhaps you could choose contrasting colours as opposed to ‘pink’ and ‘a marginally lighter shade of pink’  . Aside from that great work as always.
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I want more tournaments. Every tournament back in the day had a different storyline with different guys attending.
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Canada16217 Posts
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393 hours per month is so crazy...
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I missed the finals this past weekend, but 64k avg. for that final day seems low =(.
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Also thank you for adding the hour difference It really tells a lot !
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On November 02 2013 08:36 graNite wrote:
393 hours per month is so crazy...
Livin the dream
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so if destiny always averaged about 1000 less viewers when he was in lol, how much money did he lose when he quit sc2 briefly?
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I hope we can reach 150k or 200k for Blizzcon, but I doubt it.
100k would not be impressive in my book.
Also, these days it's just hard to find a good player stream. Sometimes I want to watch one, but there isn't any. :/
Good job on keeping track of the stats as always. I wish other games had people this dedicated to this kind of stuff.
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On November 02 2013 09:48 Noocta wrote:
I hope we can reach 150k or 200k for Blizzcon, but I doubt it.
100k would not be impressive in my book.
Also, these days it's just hard to find a good player stream. Sometimes I want to watch one, but there isn't any. :/
Good job on keeping track of the stats as always. I wish other games had people this dedicated to this kind of stuff.
BlizzCon is in West Coast. East Coast is okay for Europe but West is very very hard to catch.
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I don't dislike Destiny or something but this is pretty sad imho.
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i totally had to go to sleep during season 3 finals. it started around 3:00 after midnight and next day was monday, so..
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forGG has streamed 306 hours...
That's fucking crazy for a pro...especially for hiding your builds.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Where do you get the data from?
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Wow thankyou, that was informative
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On November 02 2013 02:53 Sufinsil wrote:
Hopefully the west coast time of BlizzCon will help europe viewers some.
Exact opposite. It makes it worse.
Example being IEM NYC finishing around 6pm Eastern time is midnight in central Europe (2am in Russia, 11pm in UK)
6pm for Blizzcon will be 3am for central Europe, 5am Russia and 2am in UK.
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On November 02 2013 07:27 Greendotz wrote:Small criticism. On the “total SC2 stream viewers by month” graph perhaps you could choose contrasting colours as opposed to ‘pink’ and ‘a marginally lighter shade of pink’ . Aside from that great work as always.
Yeah, I can't actually tell the difference between the two colours. 
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On November 02 2013 09:41 Sub40APM wrote:
so if destiny always averaged about 1000 less viewers when he was in lol, how much money did he lose when he quit sc2 briefly?
Not much. Destiny left SC2 shortly after he got screwed over by Own3d he only streamed SC2 on Twitch for a while after the incident. He also wasn't averaging 2-3k viewers when he first started streaming on Twitch.
Maybe he lost out on a bit of money, but he easily makes up for it by having fan subscriptions and by build-a-box.
Anyways, I don't think his viewer count heavily relies on what game he is playing cause a lot of the people just watch him cause he has such a "colorful" personality (which is the reason why I still watch his LoL streams even if I think dota is better)
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I think the shift in viewers from player streams to non-player streams is that in general player streams have less commentary than before, as a viewer I want to know what's going on even if I'm not on the tab with the stream.
And this also explains why Destiny is #1 in viewers, he's pretty much the only featured streamer who's always commentating.
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On November 02 2013 10:43 Cheren wrote:
I think the shift in viewers from player streams to non-player streams is that in general player streams have less commentary than before, as a viewer I want to know what's going on even if I'm not on the tab with the stream.
And this also explains why Destiny is #1 in viewers, he's pretty much the only featured streamer who's always commentating.
He also had a bit of help from special guests like XJ9, his ex-girlfriend, and Desrow.
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wow, I didn't know about this until I came across your Top 50 threads.
that's some really really cool info you've collected
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Destiny saving Starcraft like the good ol days.
If Blizzard sets the final past 1AM they'll loose a lot of viewers only because of it.
NEVER leave Europe out of the Finals if you want as many as possible to watch it.
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DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch.
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On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch.
i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs.
I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff.
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On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff.
I guess top tier players will just have to be more entertaining. I'd love to see another Dragon/Destiny. It's really hard to come by a Code S player that streams often and has a funny personality.
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On November 02 2013 11:19 Juicy Orange wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff. I guess top tier players will just have to be more entertaining. I'd love to see another Dragon/Destiny. It's really hard to come by a Code S player that streams often and has a funny personality.
Yeah, I guess you can take the high-road and be smug about being a person who only watches skill above all other things...I just get the feeling that there aren't enough of those people to sustain the entire scene. So I hope SC2 stays interesting and continues to be a balanced and fun game!
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Please feature Knowme, he deserves it as one of the most viewed non-featured Streamers.
Good work as always
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On November 02 2013 08:39 Bayyne wrote:
I missed the finals this past weekend, but 64k avg. for that final day seems low =(.
Its not that surprising because all the fan favorites got knocked out.
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On November 02 2013 11:25 CWeS_Neuling wrote:Please feature Knowme, he deserves it as one of the most viewed non-featured Streamers. Good work as always
I think knowme made it into the list last month or the one before that. Not quite sure which month. Apparently he doesnt have enough views this month to be top 50
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On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff.
Pfff what a load of bullshit. Are you seriously comparing personal streams with tournament streams? No shit people rather watch a guy that has a nice stream set up and commentates rather than someone that doesnt.
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On November 02 2013 11:32 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:25 CWeS_Neuling wrote:Please feature Knowme, he deserves it as one of the most viewed non-featured Streamers. Good work as always I think knowme made it into the list last month or the one before that. Not quite sure which month. Apparently he doesnt have enough views this month to be top 50
im 'always' on the the second list (viewers*hours) as i am streaming quite a lot but dont reach top50 viewers
this month i actually came quite close (254 average viewers and #50 has 257 on the first list)
++ as always: thank you conti
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France77 Posts
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Thanks for this post! God I never knew how hard PainUser streams. I calculated like 13 hours a day roughly, is that even right? God he is such a beast
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The analysis of Destiny ignores the most obvious reason of all - that he has played SC2 FAR longer than he played League and he lost a lot of players transitioning to a game that most were not interested in. He's better (arguably) at SC2, he has been playing it for far longer and has a much richer history with it (this cannot be discounted, the nostalgia factor and the "memory," lane) and obviously his numbers are going to bounce up and be inflated due to switching back.
Much less the reason of "being an entertainer," Destiny hasn't changed - he's just fucking Destiny. SC2 is the game that he has played for three years and it holds a deep place in a lot of viewer's hearts. Destiny and SC2 go together. Ofc he will always have a large amount of viewers because he's fucking awesome but the jump speaks for itself.
The people that watched Destiny for THREE YEARS and bore witness to all the awesome shit that happened are jumping all over this.
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United States23455 Posts
Wow ProTech and Painuser stream HARD.
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On November 02 2013 01:45 Conti wrote:- Livinpink is the highest ranked streamer this time who is not yet featured. However, her numbers are from only one streaming session, and I am not 100% sure if she was actually playing during it, or perhaps casting some event. So if anyone actually happens to know what exactly she was streaming on the 5th/6th in the last month, please let me know!
Might have been this. Could also have been streaming this partially under a SC2 tag, as I think that's the bigger draw.
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On November 02 2013 01:45 Conti wrote:
[*]Livinpink is the highest ranked streamer this time who is not yet featured. However, her numbers are from only one streaming session, and I am not 100% sure if she was actually playing during it, or perhaps casting some event. So if anyone actually happens to know what exactly she was streaming on the 5th/6th in the last month, please let me know!
She was streaming a DnD session (8hrs). She had a short (2.5hrs) SC2 stream right before it; the vods are properly tagged as SC2 and DnD, but that information may have got lost somewhere on the way to the stats-collection-thing you use.
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Why doesnt VOD views get counted in some metric? That's like only looking at opening night of a movie. What about the 2 month run + DVD sales?
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The night Destiny hit 8500, the stream was really good. Now I'm no Destiny fanboy, it was just very entertaining with Desrow. Both the games and the banter. I havent watched his stream in ages, but tuned in because I was curious why he had so many viewers that day.
A lot of Koreans dont even have cams, which is one of the draws of watching a streamer. How do we know someone else isnt playing (especially in a team house)? And they like to run replays while they do something else. As a viewer that offends me a little. You can tell they dont really give a shit, so why should we.
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On November 02 2013 14:25 havok55 wrote:
The night Destiny hit 8500, the stream was really good. Now I'm no Destiny fanboy, it was just very entertaining with Desrow. Both the games and the banter. I havent watched his stream in ages, but tuned in because I was curious why he had so many viewers that day.
A lot of Koreans dont even have cams, which is one of the draws of watching a streamer. How do we know someone else isnt playing (especially in a team house)? And they like to run replays while they do something else. As a viewer that offends me a little. You can tell they dont really give a shit, so why should we.
which korean doesn't have a webcam for their stream? I honestly can't remember any of the consistent streamers who don't have cam.
Destiny stream has always been amazing, be it the music or the conversation or the trolling or just watch random shit together.
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I think Bomber and Dragon are the best Korean in regard to streaming and their number backs them up
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So did Dragon actually retire like he said he was going to? Because he did stop for like a week after he said he was on his stream but now he streams almost as much as he used to.
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Taeja, Bomber (no cam months ago, don't know if its still the case), HerO (sometimes has it on), MKP months ago when he was supposedly streaming (people were questioning if it was actually him and not Maru). And lots of less popular Koreans who stream only a few times a month.
Yes there are players who always have a cam and they get decent viewer numbers. That's my point. The ones that care about having a strong viewership probably have a cam. I was responding to people who wonder why so-and-so arent getting viewers. The reason is because their stream sucks.
And when I said Koreans, I meant Koreans on Korean teams. Not EG, most of Liquid, or Select/Dragon/etc who are either obligated to stream or get their income by streaming.
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Russian Federation604 Posts
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All of those streams are entertaining, and they're free. Gotta love the internet.
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On November 02 2013 02:53 Sufinsil wrote:
Hopefully the west coast time of BlizzCon will help europe viewers some.
Depends on when Blizzcon starts, I don't know the times. But yeah it might be a lot better.
EDIT: Omg I'm stupid. It's indeed exact the opposite. It's gonna be even worse.
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On November 02 2013 14:25 havok55 wrote:
The night Destiny hit 8500, the stream was really good. Now I'm no Destiny fanboy, it was just very entertaining with Desrow. Both the games and the banter. I havent watched his stream in ages, but tuned in because I was curious why he had so many viewers that day.
A lot of Koreans dont even have cams, which is one of the draws of watching a streamer. How do we know someone else isnt playing (especially in a team house)? And they like to run replays while they do something else. As a viewer that offends me a little. You can tell they dont really give a shit, so why should we.
I don't remember seeing a streamer without a cam but I agree with you on the subject of playing replays on a stream, it's obnoxious.
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Replays are acceptable if the player doesn't do it frequently and if it's a high-quality game that wasn't streamed or if they provide commentary, Artosis-style.
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On November 02 2013 16:49 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 02:53 Sufinsil wrote:
Hopefully the west coast time of BlizzCon will help europe viewers some. Depends on when Blizzcon starts, I don't know the times. But yeah it might be a lot better. EDIT: Omg I'm stupid. It's indeed exact the opposite. It's gonna be even worse.
If i remember correctly, ro16 starts at around 9pm GMT +1 and ro8 at 2am GMT +1.
So yea,the worst possible time for EU
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On November 02 2013 10:43 Cheren wrote:
I think the shift in viewers from player streams to non-player streams is that in general player streams have less commentary than before, as a viewer I want to know what's going on even if I'm not on the tab with the stream.
And this also explains why Destiny is #1 in viewers, he's pretty much the only featured streamer who's always commentating.
I see you havent watched Welmu stream or elfis. Like Welmu is talking almost all the time what he is doing and why.
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Destiny's stream is so good because he does other things than just playing starcraft though. Like, when he plays it's more entertaining to watch him than it is to watch WCS. I'm not kidding when I say this. It's really fun to see Destiny talk smack about protoss while playing it. Do I learn anything about playing zerg when watching him? Fuck no. Am I entertained? Fuck yes. The down time between games is him just talking with chat or discussing varied topics. His chat on his website at destiny.gg is also really amazing. It's extremely laid back and I sometimes find myself laughing out loud; solely because the people in destiny's chat are funny (emotes are really funny too).
I think it also has something to do with people preferring fun over high level of play. When most people play a game, they do so for fun. Winning, laddering and super competitive play is fun in its own right but there's something to be said about playing the game to actually have fun. Blizzard failed to understand this and it's why you see amazing players like JD stream with less than 2000 viewers. Destiny's stream is proof that a game has to be fun before anything else. That's why Destiny's stream has so many viewers.
Same thing can be said for Idra really. You learn quite a lot from his stream but the way he presents it, with his dry humour and straight-to-the-point attitude is also entertaining. Day9 has a shit ton of viewers not just because his analysis is spot on but because he's so fucking funny with that.
Tl:dr: games are supposed to be fun, not competitive
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Nice stats.
Destiny's stream been so entertaining this month. He's low gm level, but talks through the game. It was really fun when he brought Desrow on to coach him. More streamers should try that. It's a viewer magnet.
And the return of DEMU.
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Hahaha Destiny on top! Thanks for doing this as always.
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Now before anyone crys wolve about WCS EU, i want to take a better look at it. The argument of the OP for the bad numbers of the season 3 finals is, that it was held in a bad time zone for the european viewership (which is quite logical). However if this would be the only problem WCS EU would have had the same numbers for the third season as they had for the second and if you look them up the differences are pretty big for the first day,. This can be quite misleading, so you need to look a bit closer to be get the "real" picture.
day 1 season 2
day 1 season 3
A 11k difference on average and a 17k for the peak. I don't remember what happend @ 17:42 day 1 season 3, but it sure as hell cost the stream many viewers. now let us have a look @ day 2
day 2 season 2
day 2 season 3
A 5k difference on average and a 6k for the peak. As you can see this is a slight decline, but it shows that the viewership for the EU side did not drop to much.
Now we can see, that the big drop for te first day is not a example for the state of the viewership of prof. SC2. Still the situation is grim. What some people forget is, that this is not the first decline, it is the third one in a row. WCSEU season 1 day 1 had an average of 55k and day 2 around 82 - on AVERAGE. Now we all can agree that this is becouse of HOTS, but this also means, that HOTS could not maintain their viewership gains and was nothing more than just a flash.
I think we can all agree, that this is a problem, becouse LOTV will take its time (probably till 2015, but that is ofc speculation) and until then sc2 needs at least to be stable and stop the decline.
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Painuser and Protech both have some sick total streamed hours for a single month. The closest progamer is ForGG who with around 300 hours is still 80 hours behind them, damn.
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On November 02 2013 09:41 Sub40APM wrote:
so if destiny always averaged about 1000 less viewers when he was in lol, how much money did he lose when he quit sc2 briefly?
he had better numbers for lol than he did for sc2 at the time, but now its the other way around, so it only makes sense for him to come back to sc2.
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On November 02 2013 19:13 Incognoto wrote:
Destiny's stream is so good because he does other things than just playing starcraft though. Like, when he plays it's more entertaining to watch him than it is to watch WCS. I'm not kidding when I say this. It's really fun to see Destiny talk smack about protoss while playing it. Do I learn anything about playing zerg when watching him? Fuck no. Am I entertained? Fuck yes. The down time between games is him just talking with chat or discussing varied topics. His chat on his website at destiny.gg is also really amazing. It's extremely laid back and I sometimes find myself laughing out loud; solely because the people in destiny's chat are funny (emotes are really funny too).
I think it also has something to do with people preferring fun over high level of play. When most people play a game, they do so for fun. Winning, laddering and super competitive play is fun in its own right but there's something to be said about playing the game to actually have fun. Blizzard failed to understand this and it's why you see amazing players like JD stream with less than 2000 viewers. Destiny's stream is proof that a game has to be fun before anything else. That's why Destiny's stream has so many viewers.
Same thing can be said for Idra really. You learn quite a lot from his stream but the way he presents it, with his dry humour and straight-to-the-point attitude is also entertaining. Day9 has a shit ton of viewers not just because his analysis is spot on but because he's so fucking funny with that.
Tl:dr: games are supposed to be fun, not competitive
Are you kidding me? Watching either stream or worse, engaging with their cretinous fanbases is like wading in a river of verbal and intellectual sewage.
Still, at least some people have some taste. DeMuslim remains the best, most interesting, most intelligent streamer out there and continues to be rewarded for his diligence.
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On November 02 2013 06:12 desRow wrote:I'm glad you came back with the total amount of viewers for both tournaments and personal streams, sc2 is doing well now if we can get WCS to lay off the around the clock streaming to give personal streamers a chance, this would be perfect ! Thanks again for your posts! EDIT: I gifted you gold for including the overall sc2 numbers graph <3
Thank you, dear Sir. You're awesome.
On November 02 2013 07:27 Greendotz wrote:Small criticism. On the “total SC2 stream viewers by month” graph perhaps you could choose contrasting colours as opposed to ‘pink’ and ‘a marginally lighter shade of pink’ . Aside from that great work as always.
Yes. No idea what I was thinking there. Just reuploaded the graph with proper colors.
On November 02 2013 12:51 Sithril wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 01:45 Conti wrote:
[*]Livinpink is the highest ranked streamer this time who is not yet featured. However, her numbers are from only one streaming session, and I am not 100% sure if she was actually playing during it, or perhaps casting some event. So if anyone actually happens to know what exactly she was streaming on the 5th/6th in the last month, please let me know!
She was streaming a DnD session (8hrs). She had a short (2.5hrs) SC2 stream right before it; the vods are properly tagged as SC2 and DnD, but that information may have got lost somewhere on the way to the stats-collection-thing you use.
Hmm, that's probably it, yes. A streamer has to tag their game both on twitch and here on teamliquid, so she probably just forgot the latter. It happens.
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On November 02 2013 21:51 RESOqub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 19:13 Incognoto wrote:
Destiny's stream is so good because he does other things than just playing starcraft though. Like, when he plays it's more entertaining to watch him than it is to watch WCS. I'm not kidding when I say this. It's really fun to see Destiny talk smack about protoss while playing it. Do I learn anything about playing zerg when watching him? Fuck no. Am I entertained? Fuck yes. The down time between games is him just talking with chat or discussing varied topics. His chat on his website at destiny.gg is also really amazing. It's extremely laid back and I sometimes find myself laughing out loud; solely because the people in destiny's chat are funny (emotes are really funny too).
I think it also has something to do with people preferring fun over high level of play. When most people play a game, they do so for fun. Winning, laddering and super competitive play is fun in its own right but there's something to be said about playing the game to actually have fun. Blizzard failed to understand this and it's why you see amazing players like JD stream with less than 2000 viewers. Destiny's stream is proof that a game has to be fun before anything else. That's why Destiny's stream has so many viewers.
Same thing can be said for Idra really. You learn quite a lot from his stream but the way he presents it, with his dry humour and straight-to-the-point attitude is also entertaining. Day9 has a shit ton of viewers not just because his analysis is spot on but because he's so fucking funny with that.
Tl:dr: games are supposed to be fun, not competitive Are you kidding me? Watching either stream or worse, engaging with their cretinous fanbases is like wading in a river of verbal and intellectual sewage. Still, at least some people have some taste. DeMuslim remains the best, most interesting, most intelligent streamer out there and continues to be rewarded for his diligence.
You realize all fanbases are more or less the same, right? When you call out any particular streamers fanbase, you're more or less insulting the entire stream-viewing community, whether or not you realize it.
"At least some people have good taste...those are the people who agree with my PoV, though." How enlightening.
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On November 02 2013 18:50 Fody03 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 16:49 HolydaKing wrote:On November 02 2013 02:53 Sufinsil wrote:
Hopefully the west coast time of BlizzCon will help europe viewers some. Depends on when Blizzcon starts, I don't know the times. But yeah it might be a lot better. EDIT: Omg I'm stupid. It's indeed exact the opposite. It's gonna be even worse. If i remember correctly, ro16 starts at around 9pm GMT +1 and ro8 at 2am GMT +1. So yea,the worst possible time for EU
The worst possible time to me is when the tournaments take place in Asia (ie starting time at 3AM).
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I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that the finals just weren't that interesting.
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On November 03 2013 01:28 Kyir wrote:
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that the finals just weren't that interesting.
Indeed, it could very well have contributed. What we would need is to understand where the viewers are sitting and see the distribution for different events. Surely NSA must have this data easily accessible...?
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This analysis is always wonderfully done
thank you!
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On November 02 2013 11:19 Juicy Orange wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff. I guess top tier players will just have to be more entertaining. I'd love to see another Dragon/Destiny. It's really hard to come by a Code S player that streams often and has a funny personality.
It's not about making *funny* faces on the cam and doing weird sounds (things korean streamers think are funny). It's about being genuine, interesting and in total symbiosis with your viewership. Grubby does that to an extent (minus the totally genuine part, he seems..fake or something)
I don't think any other streamer will ever be able to be as entertaining as destiny. It may sound creepy but when he is live I see him as a big brother (even if he is younger than me) and I feel emotionally involved with what he says/experience on his stream/life.
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With BlizzCon We have to keep in mind that its stream should be available from blizzard website and will attract viewers outside from SC2 community much more.
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On November 03 2013 18:53 YuiHirasawa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:19 Juicy Orange wrote:On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff. I guess top tier players will just have to be more entertaining. I'd love to see another Dragon/Destiny. It's really hard to come by a Code S player that streams often and has a funny personality. I don't think any other streamer will ever be able to be as entertaining as destiny. It may sound creepy but when he is live I see him as a big brother (even if he is younger than me) and I feel emotionally involved with what he says/experience on his stream/life.
It says a lot about the community, though, haha. There are THAT many people really interested in seeing that stuff. I wonder what that will mean for the long-run of things. I wonder if TL will beat Reddit 'cause god knows it's impossible to work together haha
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On November 02 2013 20:04 Crytash wrote:Now before anyone crys wolve about WCS EU, i want to take a better look at it. The argument of the OP for the bad numbers of the season 3 finals is, that it was held in a bad time zone for the european viewership (which is quite logical). However if this would be the only problem WCS EU would have had the same numbers for the third season as they had for the second and if you look them up the differences are pretty big for the first day,. This can be quite misleading, so you need to look a bit closer to be get the "real" picture. day 1 season 2day 1 season 3A 11k difference on average and a 17k for the peak. I don't remember what happend @ 17:42 day 1 season 3, but it sure as hell cost the stream many viewers. now let us have a look @ day 2 day 2 season 2day 2 season 3A 5k difference on average and a 6k for the peak. As you can see this is a slight decline, but it shows that the viewership for the EU side did not drop to much. Now we can see, that the big drop for te first day is not a example for the state of the viewership of prof. SC2. Still the situation is grim. What some people forget is, that this is not the first decline, it is the third one in a row. WCSEU season 1 day 1 had an average of 55k and day 2 around 82 - on AVERAGE. Now we all can agree that this is becouse of HOTS, but this also means, that HOTS could not maintain their viewership gains and was nothing more than just a flash. I think we can all agree, that this is a problem, becouse LOTV will take its time (probably till 2015, but that is ofc speculation) and until then sc2 needs at least to be stable and stop the decline.
You could also argue that the season 2 EU finals had 5 Europeans with atleast one of them having a good shot at the finals(Naniwa) and the season 3 finals just had 3 Europeans with no one realistically having a chance of winning the whole thing.
I don't think that you can say that the drop in viewership is becuase of HOTS. I feel that people sometimes get fed up with WCS especially with EU because they mostly did round of 16 and round of 8 in the same week. Which makes the scene over saturated. I would like to see what things like Dreamhack, IEM and Red Bull were and are doing with viewers. If there is a big drop here then we can say that there is a problem with HOTS maintaining viewers.
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Destiny is coming back mofos!!!
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Wow, Tara is quite hot. hope she sticks around!
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Just to say that there were around 7k people on the french stream for the WCS finals that you did not take into account since it was not on twitch (daylimotion).
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On November 05 2013 20:43 Piotr wrote:
Just to say that there were around 7k people on the french stream for the WCS finals that you did not take into account since it was not on twitch (daylimotion).
As long as a stream is linked from teamliquid, I'll get the numbers regardless of the actual streaming host. Assuming the streaming host actually provides such numbers, which daylimotion does.
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Hmm, last month and this month I took a hiatus from SC2 because of work... I shouldn't even be on here. I definitely didn't stream 20+ hours of StarCraft at 200 viewers. That was all other games.
I thought the hours/viewers only counted days we streamed under the SC category?
Anyway, I'll be switching to random and re-starting practice in December! I miss SC2!
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For me at least its because of destiny that i have started to watch sc2 streams again, its even got me thinking of hoping on the ladder.
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I'd like to point out that I've heard from Korean pros that even they watch Destiny, no matter the game he's streaming.
Streams are like Television, people watch to be entertained, and it's more entertaining (for most) to watch something that isn't just game play. We want to see decent game play (to imply that Destiny's not at least decent is ignorant) and comedy. I think the guy's a dick, but damned if he ain't funny.
I don't think this means anything about the state of SC2, I think if nothing else it proves that it can continue as an entertaining medium. I do think it removes quite a bit of the emphasis on extremely good players though.
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Korean pros watch destiny? why would they? he's funny yes but I'm not quite sure that koreans understand english (generally speaking)
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On November 02 2013 11:19 Juicy Orange wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff. I guess top tier players will just have to be more entertaining. I'd love to see another Dragon/Destiny. It's really hard to come by a Code S player that streams often and has a funny personality.
Its becaue they sold their soul to be that good
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On November 03 2013 19:27 Viserion wrote:
With BlizzCon We have to keep in mind that its stream should be available from blizzard website and will attract viewers outside from SC2 community much more.
It's also much more friendly for EU being friday/saturday. I simply cannot stay up late on sundays. I have work/university to and that means I'm much more inclined to go to sleep early and watch the VoDs later or just read the result in the LR.
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On November 07 2013 05:21 TaraBabcock wrote:Hmm, last month and this month I took a hiatus from SC2 because of work... I shouldn't even be on here. I definitely didn't stream 20+ hours of StarCraft at 200 viewers. That was all other games. I thought the hours/viewers only counted days we streamed under the SC category? Anyway, I'll be switching to random and re-starting practice in December! I miss SC2!
The most likely explanation is that you forgot to set the game to something other than SC2 here on teamliquid. Looking at my database, that seems to be just what happened. As far as teamliquid is concerned, you did not play anything but SC2 in the last month (and this month, too!).
It happens all the time. Just set the game to misc (or whatever you're playing) here on TL.
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I am actually surprised that I am the first to acknowledge that I am a little bit shocked that ATC has a higher viewer count than GSTL. Does the viewer count of the GSTL also include the Korean viewers (like the viewer count from the ATC does)?
edit: and ofc as always, much much thanks for the interesting numbers, Conti.
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On November 07 2013 06:38 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 05:21 TaraBabcock wrote:Hmm, last month and this month I took a hiatus from SC2 because of work... I shouldn't even be on here. I definitely didn't stream 20+ hours of StarCraft at 200 viewers. That was all other games. I thought the hours/viewers only counted days we streamed under the SC category? Anyway, I'll be switching to random and re-starting practice in December! I miss SC2! The most likely explanation is that you forgot to set the game to something other than SC2 here on teamliquid. Looking at my database, that seems to be just what happened. As far as teamliquid is concerned, you did not play anything but SC2 in the last month (and this month, too!). It happens all the time. Just set the game to misc (or whatever you're playing) here on TL.
Oh, yeah, I don't change TL. I didn't know anyone did that. I thought the stats came from Twitch. Ouch, that sucks. Must be a LOT of misinformation then with streamer who play multiple games.
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On November 02 2013 11:07 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
DESTINY! Definitely something to think about that a retired(?) player is at the top... I think when watching personal streams, people prefer an entertaining personality over pure skill.
Also congrats again to Avilo! I started watching his stream when he got featured and his mech is superfun to watch. i think it just goes to show that personality > * at the end of the day in terms of numbers. There are always going to be nameless koreans who are better than a shitton of people, but the audience that makes up those huge numbers doesn't care about that stuff.. A lot of people who just watch SC2 want to be entertained, so of course interesting people like Destiny will get more eyeballs. I think it's funny that the number of people who want to watch high-level play is so low. I dont' see how this community will sustain itself after a long time if most of the people who watch are just casual players and stuff.
I think it more has to do with there are constantly a billion tournaments going on which feature the high-level play so people get their high-level play fix there. Where as you don't get to see the "personality" people such as destiny in tournaments as much so when they stream people are more interested in watching because it is something they don't see as much
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On November 08 2013 10:39 TaraBabcock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 06:38 Conti wrote:On November 07 2013 05:21 TaraBabcock wrote:Hmm, last month and this month I took a hiatus from SC2 because of work... I shouldn't even be on here. I definitely didn't stream 20+ hours of StarCraft at 200 viewers. That was all other games. I thought the hours/viewers only counted days we streamed under the SC category? Anyway, I'll be switching to random and re-starting practice in December! I miss SC2! The most likely explanation is that you forgot to set the game to something other than SC2 here on teamliquid. Looking at my database, that seems to be just what happened. As far as teamliquid is concerned, you did not play anything but SC2 in the last month (and this month, too!). It happens all the time. Just set the game to misc (or whatever you're playing) here on TL. Oh, yeah, I don't change TL. I didn't know anyone did that. I thought the stats came from Twitch. Ouch, that sucks. Must be a LOT of misinformation then with streamer who play multiple games.
I wouldn't quite go that far. People do forget to change their game all the time, but that applies equally to twitch and to teamliquid.net. And the vast majority of the streamers that do appear on the top 50 lists most likely spend far more time here on teamliquid than anywhere else, since they are primarily (or even solely) Starcraft 2 players/streamers. So they're very unlikely to forget to set/change their game here. In addition, every featured streamer is sorted under the game he's playing here on tl.net's sidebar, so if he/she's listed under the wrong game people will immediately notice and let him/her know.
So, basically, this is only a potential issue for non-featured streamers, who still get good viewer numbers, but who do not get most of these viewers from teamliquid.net, and who are not primarily SC2 players. Which, I think, is a group only consisting of you.
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On November 08 2013 10:39 TaraBabcock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 06:38 Conti wrote:On November 07 2013 05:21 TaraBabcock wrote:Hmm, last month and this month I took a hiatus from SC2 because of work... I shouldn't even be on here. I definitely didn't stream 20+ hours of StarCraft at 200 viewers. That was all other games. I thought the hours/viewers only counted days we streamed under the SC category? Anyway, I'll be switching to random and re-starting practice in December! I miss SC2! The most likely explanation is that you forgot to set the game to something other than SC2 here on teamliquid. Looking at my database, that seems to be just what happened. As far as teamliquid is concerned, you did not play anything but SC2 in the last month (and this month, too!). It happens all the time. Just set the game to misc (or whatever you're playing) here on TL. Oh, yeah, I don't change TL. I didn't know anyone did that. I thought the stats came from Twitch. Ouch, that sucks. Must be a LOT of misinformation then with streamer who play multiple games.
I find you weird, but I miss that weirdness.
come back soon and so I can watch your stream sometimes :D
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EPT![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202013%2010.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202013%2010x.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/WCS%202013%2010.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8028950/TL/GSTL%20ATC%2010.png)
