I know a couple kids here from SoCal who are 15 years old who are Grand Masters, pretty amazing kids. They placed pretty dang high in our most recent tournament here. Boyo and Illusion were 15 I think when they first got popular.
I've heard of a few 14yo GMs - Pyre and HeroMarine at 14 years old.
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
So it made me think, who is the youngest Grand Master player ever, on all 3 servers? If this 13 year old kid goes GM, would he be the youngest SC2 GM to date?
I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence, focus, training, coordination and mechanics required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence, focus, training, coordination and mechanics required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
On May 24 2013 13:26 synd wrote: Who cares? What's the point of all these threads like "who's the youngest X Y Z"
Knowing doesnt hurt.
Thanks.
Really solid defence. You justify the thread we get like every week or so by telling me I picked my nose at that age or whatever offensive shit you'll say.
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence, focus, training, coordination and mechanics required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
Playing BW and representing Team Canada in international hockey tournaments. You?
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
On May 24 2013 13:26 synd wrote: Who cares? What's the point of all these threads like "who's the youngest X Y Z"
Knowing doesnt hurt.
Thanks.
I wouldn't say it's more impressive because they're young at all. For one thing, you don't need to be that intelligent to play starcraft at a high level. Secondly, kids around that age have a lot more time than just about everyone else to play, except pro players of course.
Also, being a kid and climbing Everest is hard because you don't have the muscle and endurance to climb it, whereas in starcraft, a kid has everything he or she needs to be good. Now, I'm sure there are some other factors that come in to play here, though I don't think it's anywhere near as big of a deal as people make it out to be, just look at Life lol.
On May 24 2013 13:25 CableStarcraft wrote: I know a couple kids here from SoCal who are 15 years old who are Grand Masters, pretty amazing kids. Boyo and Illusion were 15 I think when they first got popular. They placed pretty dang high in our most recent
I've heard of a few 14yo GMs - Pyre and HeroMarine at 14 years old.
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
So it made me think, who is the youngest Grand Master player ever, on all 3 servers? If this 13 year old kid goes GM, would he be the youngest SC2 GM to date?
On May 24 2013 13:25 CableStarcraft wrote: I know a couple kids here from SoCal who are 15 years old who are Grand Masters, pretty amazing kids. Boyo and Illusion were 15 I think when they first got popular. They placed pretty dang high in our most recent
I've heard of a few 14yo GMs - Pyre and HeroMarine at 14 years old.
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
So it made me think, who is the youngest Grand Master player ever, on all 3 servers? If this 13 year old kid goes GM, would he be the youngest SC2 GM to date?
Damn that insult LOL
You caught my really unfortunate disorganized sentence, sorry. Fixed in OP.
But did I mess something up in your age? You're one of the ones I'd say is incredibly impressive at such a young age.
Yeah age doesn't matter anyways, just because you made it to GM at a young age doesn't mean you'll be godly when you get older. Anyways, we should really be looking at KR anyways, because the other servers are significantly easier to get to GM. My guess would probably be the younger pros, most likely someone like Maru?
On May 24 2013 13:35 Tachion wrote: Maru played in GSL open season 1 when he was 12 years old. He wasn't just GM, he was a fucking GSL contender in Korea.
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
On May 24 2013 13:35 Tachion wrote: Maru played in GSL open season 1 when he was 12 years old. He wasn't just GM, he was a fucking GSL contender in Korea.
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
It does at that age. The brain of a 13 year old is less developed than that of an adult.
only in certain ways. there are a lot of things that children learn much more easily than adults.
there are even certain mental activities where you peak when you're in your early 20's (music/math/chess), and people who are like 13-15 can compete with grown adults who have been working at those things for many years.
this reaction just mainly comes from our educational system which encourages this view that children are somehow stupider versions of adults.
I think video games, especially an RTS game like sc2 can have a significant effect on the intellectual capacities of the players brain over a longer period of time (pays dividends throughout life)
On May 24 2013 13:43 Thrillz wrote: Yeah age doesn't matter anyways, just because you made it to GM at a young age doesn't mean you'll be godly when you get older. Anyways, we should really be looking at KR anyways, because the other servers are significantly easier to get to GM. My guess would probably be the younger pros, most likely someone like Maru?
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
I don't understand this line of thought. Could one of you fully explain it to me? Because as far as I know, being a young skilled chess player, being a young and skilled musician, being a young and skilled scholar -- all are looked at as incredible talent. We liken StarCraft to chess on crack all the time.
How does someone's age not matter in starcraft? There are factors like focus, maturity, discipline, ability to learn from your mistakes, ability to repeat a build consistently, ability to make strategic decisions based on your opponent, positional strategy, coordination of your fingers to what your brain is telling them to do, etc. These are no menial tasks.
On May 24 2013 13:43 Thrillz wrote: Yeah age doesn't matter anyways, just because you made it to GM at a young age doesn't mean you'll be godly when you get older. Anyways, we should really be looking at KR anyways, because the other servers are significantly easier to get to GM. My guess would probably be the younger pros, most likely someone like Maru?
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
I don't understand this line of thought. Could one of you fully explain it to me? Because as far as I know, being a young skilled chess player, being a young and skilled musician, being a young and skilled scholar -- all are looked at as incredible talent. We liken StarCraft to chess on crack all the time.
How does someone's age not matter in starcraft? There are factors like focus, maturity, discipline, ability to learn from your mistakes, ability to repeat a build consistently, ability to make strategic decisions based on your opponent, positional strategy, coordination of your fingers to what your brain is telling them to do, etc. These are no menial tasks.
as i mentioned above, being young doesn't mean you're INFERIOR at learning things.
there are some things children aren't good at, like self control, mental discipline, but there are a lot of things that they can develop at a much more rapid rate than adults.
most of what you list in starcraft isn't stuff you're even really actively thinking about, its just drilling and repeat.
just look at famous chess players, mathematicians, musicians almost all of them were good at a young age and practiced a lot then, by the time they're around 13-15, they are competing with adults who have put many years into their endeavours.
in fact i would say if you HAVEN'T become recognized by that age, you probably will not become a superstar in those areas.
On May 24 2013 13:56 ppshchik wrote: This thread reeks of pedophilia.
Absolutely not. I don't know where you could possibly find this in any post here.
I feel that you said that without actually reading what people said, in a similar fashion that standard media say that violent games cause mass shooting.
You may think it's linked, but there's nothing to support your claims.
On May 24 2013 13:25 CableStarcraft wrote: I know a couple kids here from SoCal who are 15 years old who are Grand Masters, pretty amazing kids. Boyo and Illusion were 15 I think when they first got popular. They placed pretty dang high in our most recent
I've heard of a few 14yo GMs - Pyre and HeroMarine at 14 years old.
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
So it made me think, who is the youngest Grand Master player ever, on all 3 servers? If this 13 year old kid goes GM, would he be the youngest SC2 GM to date?
Damn that insult LOL
Apparently no1 else has seen what you meant yet. Lol
On May 24 2013 13:25 CableStarcraft wrote: I know a couple kids here from SoCal who are 15 years old who are Grand Masters, pretty amazing kids. Boyo and Illusion were 15 I think when they first got popular. They placed pretty dang high in our most recent
I've heard of a few 14yo GMs - Pyre and HeroMarine at 14 years old.
But then we've got this one kid down here who is 13 year old prodigy, beat Gretorp (GM) at our local SoCal tournament, he's 1259 Rank 1 Masters as of 1 minute ago.
So it made me think, who is the youngest Grand Master player ever, on all 3 servers? If this 13 year old kid goes GM, would he be the youngest SC2 GM to date?
Damn that insult LOL
Apparently no1 else has seen what you meant yet. Lol
Baby was the youngest pro-player ever, which imho is more impressive considering he did that during the reign of BW. He was 12 when signed to WeMade and when he was 9 years old was all ready almost taking large prestigious tournaments.
Honestly, I was better at rtses (I understood the eco and army comp / movement and mechanics so much easier) and I was in general quicker apmwise when I was much younger (read age of 11-16). I assume it would be the same for others,so I genuinly dont understand why its so impressive to be young and good at rtses. to me its much more impressive to be old (like 33+) and still be a GM
The thing is that playing computer at too young an age will hurt your development. At the age of 12-16 kids need to be out there with their friends and develop their social skills. They also need to be out there to exercise their muscles instead of sitting at home in front of a screen and just moving his two hands while not talking to anyone. No one can afford to waste that time developing those skills, because the opportunity is never going to come back and it is a lot harder to try and do it later on. Reaching GM requires a daily and continuous commitment and that is too much time wasted on something that will be a waste of time later on when you stop playing the game (even though that may be 5-10 years later).
Playing computer games is ok, BUT only if you keep the amount of time spent low and it is best spent together with some friends in the same room. Paracelsus' rule of "too much is bad for you" applies.
On May 24 2013 16:30 Rabiator wrote: The thing is that playing computer at too young an age will hurt your development. At the age of 12-16 kids need to be out there with their friends and develop their social skills. They also need to be out there to exercise their muscles instead of sitting at home in front of a screen and just moving his two hands while not talking to anyone. No one can afford to waste that time developing those skills, because the opportunity is never going to come back and it is a lot harder to try and do it later on. Reaching GM requires a daily and continuous commitment and that is too much time wasted on something that will be a waste of time later on when you stop playing the game (even though that may be 5-10 years later).
Playing computer games is ok, BUT only if you keep the amount of time spent low and it is best spent together with some friends in the same room. Paracelsus' rule of "too much is bad for you" applies.
Pure nonsense. I get high grades wiithout cracking a textbook and being social at school, while still playing lots of video games(~3-4 hours a day). I'm also really fast at running (top 10 fastest in school).
On May 24 2013 16:30 Rabiator wrote: The thing is that playing computer at too young an age will hurt your development. At the age of 12-16 kids need to be out there with their friends and develop their social skills. They also need to be out there to exercise their muscles instead of sitting at home in front of a screen and just moving his two hands while not talking to anyone. No one can afford to waste that time developing those skills, because the opportunity is never going to come back and it is a lot harder to try and do it later on. Reaching GM requires a daily and continuous commitment and that is too much time wasted on something that will be a waste of time later on when you stop playing the game (even though that may be 5-10 years later).
Playing computer games is ok, BUT only if you keep the amount of time spent low and it is best spent together with some friends in the same room. Paracelsus' rule of "too much is bad for you" applies.
Pure nonsense. I get high grades wiithout cracking a textbook and being social at school, while still playing lots of video games(~3-4 hours a day). I'm also really fast at running (top 10 fastest in school).
That may be fine for you, but can you guarantee that it works for all? We (the society as a whole) can not afford to "lose" the potentially smart kids (having an affinity for computer games and thus the computer puts you in the "potentially" smart category) just because they wasted the most important time of their life on playing a game instead of going out and making friends. You have to have those skills to become a member of society and thus a blanket "it works fine for me, so there should be no limit whatsoever" can never ever be the right way to look at things. Since you are a kid you have no experience in how much really is needed; wisdom is something that only comes with age (AND experience).
High grades are relative as a criterion as well, because schools have some nonsense requirements today.
Being really fast at running probably "comes naturally" to you and isnt something which you had to train long and hard for, right? That has something to do with "speed muscles" being relatively prominent for you compared to other kids. So this part of your argument doesnt really count.
Btw. ... how old are you? How much time do you actually spend with friends ... outside school in face-to-face company?
Most important question: Are you spending the time to be in GM or not?
i can't really face my friends outside of school face-to-face because i live in a different city (I'm in an international school because im an immigrant to the country im in) I'll never get anywhere near GM because i dont play starcraft much. Most of the knowlege i have with me is with sheer internet browsing since i was like 9
On May 24 2013 16:34 Fus wrote: The player "Thisgamesuck" is a 13 y/o grandmaster on EU.
I demand actual proof or else it didnt happen, thx in advance. I believe the youngest ever ever ever ever is Maru. Tastosis said it, so i know its a damn fact ^^
I don't care about age. As long as they got results = good players, why would age matter? It's like all of these streams "hey I'm a 13 year old master Terran"... Give me some good games and stop promoting yourself as a wonderchild.
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence, focus, training, coordination and mechanics required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
On May 24 2013 13:26 synd wrote: Who cares? What's the point of all these threads like "who's the youngest X Y Z"
Knowing doesnt hurt.
Thanks.
I was mostly playing outside..
On a more serious note, I used to be a better gamer when I was in my teens. I had a way easier time learning mechanics of games. Nowadays I have got other priorities and gaming is a leisure activity, so I don't mind games being kind of easy nowadays.
On May 24 2013 17:53 Teodice wrote: I don't care about age. As long as they got results = good players, why would age matter? It's like all of these streams "hey I'm a 13 year old master Terran"... Give me some good games and stop promoting yourself as a wonderchild.
Maybe the "I'm 13" isn't for you. Maybe its for other young people that would better relate to the streamer knowing that they're about the same age. Saying "13 year old master Terran" is no worse than "American GM Zerg": it's something people can relate to. I'm 30 now and age doesn't matter as much to me in terms of finding people relatable, but when I was that age it absolutely did.
GM status isn't an accurate way of describing how could someone is. Any Korean playing high level games in korea at a very young age would have easily been able to reach GM on EU/US.
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
And as for mt Everest, it is way more interesting to know who is the oldest one...
On May 24 2013 16:34 Fus wrote: The player "Thisgamesuck" is a 13 y/o grandmaster on EU.
I demand actual proof or else it didnt happen, thx in advance. I believe the youngest ever ever ever ever is Maru. Tastosis said it, so i know its a damn fact ^^
Twitch tv and theyoungonessc2 its a shared channel but look at past broadcasts and search for TGS, gm zerg. I belive he is 14 now but he got GM in last season of WoL and in Hots when he was still 13.
On May 24 2013 16:30 Rabiator wrote: The thing is that playing computer at too young an age will hurt your development. At the age of 12-16 kids need to be out there with their friends and develop their social skills. They also need to be out there to exercise their muscles instead of sitting at home in front of a screen and just moving his two hands while not talking to anyone. No one can afford to waste that time developing those skills, because the opportunity is never going to come back and it is a lot harder to try and do it later on. Reaching GM requires a daily and continuous commitment and that is too much time wasted on something that will be a waste of time later on when you stop playing the game (even though that may be 5-10 years later).
Playing computer games is ok, BUT only if you keep the amount of time spent low and it is best spent together with some friends in the same room. Paracelsus' rule of "too much is bad for you" applies.
Pure nonsense. I get high grades wiithout cracking a textbook and being social at school, while still playing lots of video games(~3-4 hours a day). I'm also really fast at running (top 10 fastest in school).
I second that. I also did well in school and played games during most of the day, not doing any studying at all. Of course I had other interests as well, such as playing guitar, reading etc. At that age you just have so much time on your hands to play regularly and have not real worries that it's not that astounding to hear of 13-year-olds to be in GM. The sad thing is that I'm 19 now and only reached Masters during this past month, whilst putting quite a lot of effort into the game.
On May 24 2013 16:30 Rabiator wrote: The thing is that playing computer at too young an age will hurt your development. At the age of 12-16 kids need to be out there with their friends and develop their social skills. They also need to be out there to exercise their muscles instead of sitting at home in front of a screen and just moving his two hands while not talking to anyone. No one can afford to waste that time developing those skills, because the opportunity is never going to come back and it is a lot harder to try and do it later on. Reaching GM requires a daily and continuous commitment and that is too much time wasted on something that will be a waste of time later on when you stop playing the game (even though that may be 5-10 years later).
Playing computer games is ok, BUT only if you keep the amount of time spent low and it is best spent together with some friends in the same room. Paracelsus' rule of "too much is bad for you" applies.
Pure nonsense. I get high grades wiithout cracking a textbook and being social at school, while still playing lots of video games(~3-4 hours a day). I'm also really fast at running (top 10 fastest in school).
Its more interesting to find out who the oldest GM player is rather than the highest. Its been discussed a lot back in BW that a lot of pros start early and retire early because age matters A LOT. At a young age (12~18) you're basically at your prime, fast reflexes, being able to think a bit more clearly (since your younger you're a lot less stressed out than a regular adult), basically your better at SC2 at a younger age than you would be at your 20s (in most cases anyway).
I rather find out the older GMs because despite their age, work, and any forms of things that can cause their body to act weird (hands shaking while macro-ing/micro-ing), they are still able to keep up and play better than most players 2/3 their age.
I'm more curious about the theoretical side of this: If you were to raise your child to be a professional SC2 player, like parents do in other sports, how old would they have to be to get into GM?
Chess kids can reach this level when they're about 9 or 10, but Starcraft strategy is a little more abstract, and the mechanical element might be difficult at that age. Still, if you start drilling the mechanics into them starting at age 8, I think you might be able to produce a 10-year old GM.
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
On May 24 2013 13:29 Ratch! wrote:
On May 24 2013 13:26 synd wrote: Who cares? What's the point of all these threads like "who's the youngest X Y Z"
Knowing doesnt hurt.
Thanks.
I wouldn't say it's more impressive because they're young at all. For one thing, you don't need to be that intelligent to play starcraft at a high level. Secondly, kids around that age have a lot more time than just about everyone else to play, except pro players of course.
Also, being a kid and climbing Everest is hard because you don't have the muscle and endurance to climb it, whereas in starcraft, a kid has everything he or she needs to be good. Now, I'm sure there are some other factors that come in to play here, though I don't think it's anywhere near as big of a deal as people make it out to be, just look at Life lol.
Um...if anything goes to judge by the more intelligent the player the better they will be. You don't get to be anything but a ladder hero by just brute-forcing your way through every game you play. SC is certainly on the same intellectual stage as thinker's game like Chess.
On May 24 2013 19:03 Cel.erity wrote: I'm more curious about the theoretical side of this: If you were to raise your child to be a professional SC2 player, like parents do in other sports, how old would they have to be to get into GM?
Chess kids can reach this level when they're about 9 or 10, but Starcraft strategy is a little more abstract, and the mechanical element might be difficult at that age. Still, if you start drilling the mechanics into them starting at age 8, I think you might be able to produce a 10-year old GM.
I think you are correct with this assumption. And if you grew up using a computer and didn't mess with consoles, and SC2 or rts was the only thing you played mostly, your mechanics could be godlike. I know between the age of 10-17 were my best gaming years by far.
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
It does at that age. The brain of a 13 year old is less developed than that of an adult.
Not in such a way that has a significant impact on the performance of an RTS game.
That's an interesting question. There are certainly ways that kids that age usually lack the capability for certain analytical reasoning skills that might be helpful in Starcraft.
I'm making that assertion based on research into mathematical ability and essentially how "teachable" certain kinds of reasoning are at that age. There's published research that suggests that certain kinds of reasoning can't be taught to the typical 13-year-old no matter what effort you and the kid puts into it, whereas an average 14- or 15-year-old can catch on quickly. On the other hand, there are certainly outliers who don't fit the pattern at all.
There's also the question of manual dexterity. Most kids in early adolescence have a harder time training up their dexterity to an adult level, but there are exceptional examples there too.
In all, there are likely developmental reasons that kids usually don't become really good at Starcraft until they hit 14 or 15, probably more than just questions of focus. However, it doesn't surprise me to see the occasional 11-13 year old stand out.
Edit: Purely on the mathematical reasoning front, there's evidence that most people don't really fully develop until their mid-20s. I'm not asserting that those skills are necessary for the game, or making a statement about how much they help, just using it as an illustration of how a developing kid's capabilities might be limited by their stage of development in ways that may not be obvious to them.
On May 24 2013 13:35 Tachion wrote: Maru played in GSL open season 1 when he was 12 years old. He wasn't just GM, he was a fucking GSL contender in Korea.
Maru like a total boss....shame he's been struggling since the switch to HotS
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
It does at that age. The brain of a 13 year old is less developed than that of an adult.
The brain doesn't stop developing until after 25. That doesn't make it impressive when a 24 year old does something that a 25 year old can't do.
I think that in this game the only thing that matters is if you are the best, not your age. You should give people praise based on what they earn, not when they earn it. Too many kids get a big head that way. As you said the brain hasn't stopped developing. They don't know how to handle the fame etc. (this is clear in other professions you get a kid in the spotlight). Treat a 13 year old GM how you would treat any other GM. It isn't useful to spotlight them unless they do something worthy of spotlight. Place in GSL, win an MLG or something (like Life).
age 12+ is basically point when you should not be surprised by someones skill compared to age. 10-12 is also age when kids in normal sports (football for example) start learning tactics and stuff because at younger age they don't really understand it.
as for prime, belief that you're well past your prime in 20s in just bullshit. Problem with current old generation is that they didn't grew up with video games. That crucial time of development in young age is something they miss. Today, when kids grew up with video games they are used to it, used to think like gamer and play like real gamer. They will be able to play till their 30's easily. Only problem that still exist is time when you need to quit fooling around and start living real life. But there's no "max age" because it's not the same if you compare 2 30 year old guys if 1 started gaming in the age od 5 and other when he was 25. I don't see any sport/activity where you're at 30 so much worse than when you're 18, quite on contrary.
On May 24 2013 19:03 Cel.erity wrote: I'm more curious about the theoretical side of this: If you were to raise your child to be a professional SC2 player, like parents do in other sports, how old would they have to be to get into GM?
Chess kids can reach this level when they're about 9 or 10, but Starcraft strategy is a little more abstract, and the mechanical element might be difficult at that age. Still, if you start drilling the mechanics into them starting at age 8, I think you might be able to produce a 10-year old GM.
I think you are correct with this assumption. And if you grew up using a computer and didn't mess with consoles, and SC2 or rts was the only thing you played mostly, your mechanics could be godlike. I know between the age of 10-17 were my best gaming years by far.
There's good and bad aspects to learning young. If you learn bad, you'll have a hard time breaking those habits. Its also funny to think of a player whose hands are too small to stretch to the ctrl key. I'd say the youngest to start would be 7-8 years old. Maybe GM 11-12 years old, if there really fast 10.
On May 25 2013 00:12 bLah. wrote: age 12+ is basically point when you should not be surprised by someones skill compared to age. 10-12 is also age when kids in normal sports (football for example) start learning tactics and stuff because at younger age they don't really understand it.
as for prime, belief that you're well past your prime in 20s in just bullshit. Problem with current old generation is that they didn't grew up with video games. That crucial time of development in young age is something they miss. Today, when kids grew up with video games they are used to it, used to think like gamer and play like real gamer. They will be able to play till their 30's easily. Only problem that still exist is time when you need to quit fooling around and start living real life. But there's no "max age" because it's not the same if you compare 2 30 year old guys if 1 started gaming in the age od 5 and other when he was 25. I don't see any sport/activity where you're at 30 so much worse than when you're 18, quite on contrary.
Well there was some research done on BW players and your reactions ect lower when you get older. But how old is this "old generation" you are talking about. The first rts I played was Dune 2 and it came out in 92.
On May 25 2013 00:12 bLah. wrote: Problem with current old generation is that they didn't grew up with video games.
A current 40-45 year old who plays video games today was likely to have been playing (very demanding) video games at age 10.
I don't think so. I'm 30, and the NES came out when I was very young. Most people didn't own a system before that. Props to my parents though, they had the original Odyssey system with Space Invaders and all that stuff before I was even born.
On May 24 2013 16:30 Rabiator wrote: The thing is that playing computer at too young an age will hurt your development. At the age of 12-16 kids need to be out there with their friends and develop their social skills. They also need to be out there to exercise their muscles instead of sitting at home in front of a screen and just moving his two hands while not talking to anyone. No one can afford to waste that time developing those skills, because the opportunity is never going to come back and it is a lot harder to try and do it later on. Reaching GM requires a daily and continuous commitment and that is too much time wasted on something that will be a waste of time later on when you stop playing the game (even though that may be 5-10 years later).
Playing computer games is ok, BUT only if you keep the amount of time spent low and it is best spent together with some friends in the same room. Paracelsus' rule of "too much is bad for you" applies.
Pure nonsense. I get high grades wiithout cracking a textbook and being social at school, while still playing lots of video games(~3-4 hours a day). I'm also really fast at running (top 10 fastest in school).
That may be fine for you, but can you guarantee that it works for all? We (the society as a whole) can not afford to "lose" the potentially smart kids (having an affinity for computer games and thus the computer puts you in the "potentially" smart category) just because they wasted the most important time of their life on playing a game instead of going out and making friends. You have to have those skills to become a member of society and thus a blanket "it works fine for me, so there should be no limit whatsoever" can never ever be the right way to look at things. Since you are a kid you have no experience in how much really is needed; wisdom is something that only comes with age (AND experience).
High grades are relative as a criterion as well, because schools have some nonsense requirements today.
Being really fast at running probably "comes naturally" to you and isnt something which you had to train long and hard for, right? That has something to do with "speed muscles" being relatively prominent for you compared to other kids. So this part of your argument doesnt really count.
Btw. ... how old are you? How much time do you actually spend with friends ... outside school in face-to-face company?
Most important question: Are you spending the time to be in GM or not?
Yeah so.. you're telling him that his example is invalid because it works "just for him" while making a general statement about what teenagers 12-16 should and should not be doing? Of course it isn't recommended for one person to spend ALL of their time doing something which they can't live of of later on, but just like DinosaurPoop's situation isn't true for everyone, neither is yours.
I also find it weird you would say society would lose someone if they decided they wouldn't make friends. What about introverts? What about people who don't desire a lot of friends and would rather spend time on their own? What about simply living in an environment without people who share your interests? There are many other useful skills besides "social skills" which are more useful to society than sharing stories about who kissed who last night.
Like there are "speed muscles", there are also people who can get pretty close to GM while doing other stuff with their lives or dedicating themselves to a different activity. And there are a number of benefits too: Learning to dedicate yourself to a project, strategic thinking, learning from mistakes, learning to handle disappointment, learning how to effectively spend time, which helps with A LOT of jobs. Also, which specific social skill would one train being face to face which can't be trained online? You might want to tell the current generation, considering like 90% turned into smartphone zombies.
There are many ways of living a happy life and making the world a better place, which makes me feel like your idea, while being one of the valid ways to live a great life, is way too limited.
---
OT: I think it's amazing having all these young talents, it would be pretty fun to know who the youngest (and oldest) person is, like we know Flash is the youngest OSL winner, Life is the youngest GSL winner and Mind is the youngest MSL Winner. It would be fun to have a summarizing topic I guess, so we know who to keep our eye on (:
On May 25 2013 00:36 Eatme wrote: Well there was some research done on BW players and your reactions ect lower when you get older. But how old is this "old generation" you are talking about. The first rts I played was Dune 2 and it came out in 92.
actually most of reaserches are young vs new, I didn't really find anyone measured through couple of years with some extensive tests. As for old generation, yea but it wasn't gaming (games were mechanically and strategicaly shit) nor was it widespread. Keep in mind that Korea got their gaming just before Starcraft came out (which is basically one of the main reasons why it was so popular) I mean, you become worse as you grow older but that starts way later in life, it doesn't start when you're 20-25. I also remember being A LOT better at fps games when I was 13, but that was because I played 7h a day instead of 1 like I do now. There's no way that 13yo me would be able to compete against me now if I continued to practice.
On May 25 2013 00:12 bLah. wrote: Problem with current old generation is that they didn't grew up with video games.
A current 40-45 year old who plays video games today was likely to have been playing (very demanding) video games at age 10.
I don't think so. I'm 30, and the NES came out when I was very young. Most people didn't own a system before that. Props to my parents though, they had the original Odyssey system with Space Invaders and all that stuff before I was even born.
I was born in 75 and started with Atari. NES had some pretty tough games. Duck Hunt past the first 10-15 levels becomes pretty tense. Metal Gear was one of my first 'rage inducer'. The alarm/alert noise still ticks me off. Tall as I am, I never fit in the cardboard box properly :D
13 year old GM is impressive, if only because young and old gamers alike have become more sophisticated over the years. Tougher competition, more competition. The Wizard movie with Fred Savage almost looks a bit prophetic with me watching E-Sports devolp as it has as I near 40.
On May 24 2013 23:33 Meridian wrote: If you're younger it just means you have more time on your hands, doesn't make it any more impressive.
Of course it's more impressive to achieve GM rank the younger you are. Personally it would be a hillarious tournament to see all the old experienced guys getting wooped by some kiddo
It's simple... basicly the impressive part is that they(he) can compete with older guys whoms brains are way more developed. It's awesome!
That's a good question. But seeing as though the sweet spot for esport pros seems to be between 16 and 21, I'm more curious as to who the oldest GM would be. Of course this is just coming from a casual observer that has followed the scene for a while.
I know this doesnt refer to SC2 directly, but if i remember right, Baby (aka TY) got his progamer license in BW (and that way better than entering GM :D ) when he was like 10-11 y.o ?
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
And as for mt Everest, it is way more interesting to know who is the oldest one...
An 80 year old Japanese man recently became the oldest person to summit everest.
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
It does at that age. The brain of a 13 year old is less developed than that of an adult.
Good thing you don't need a brain to get GM on NA
LOL, Ouch. Idra-esqe comment. I usually mention that to my girlfriend when encouraging her to ladder. Closest I got was a few Bronze League Hero's episodes.
Nice stuff, but you people tend to forget starcraft is a game with two players, so doesn't that mean if GM league has 100 thirteen to fifteen year olds then if you want to be promoted to GM you will have around a 50 percent chance to find a 13-15 yr old gm? Even if the numbers are much smaller than that, if there are seven 13-15 year old in Grandmaster league, then guess how much would be in masters? You people are arguing based on the idea that calculating the skill of a 13 year old is thinking that he is in a league full of people older than him.
Btw, you can train ANYONE to find tactical and strategic patterns to any game, for example, there was this puzzle game called flipgame which was near impossible to beat, but then i started to see that the values of each square is not variable, every box has this boolean value which is hidden, and when all of them are 0, the game is solved , then i started to see that to determine the value of a square, there are a total of five variables you need to take in. If all squares around it have the boolean value(not the color) of false, then it is false, etc.
It wouldn't take a monkey to eventually figure out the 'correct' mechanics. Mechanics today are strategies of the past. Keep producing workers? Maynard. also im turning 13 this weekend :D (although my birthday on TL is fake.)
On May 24 2013 13:29 askmc70 wrote: your age doesnt matter in starcraft
It does at that age. The brain of a 13 year old is less developed than that of an adult.
Good thing you don't need a brain to get GM on NA
LOL, Ouch. Idra-esqe comment. I usually mention that to my girlfriend when encouraging her to ladder. Closest I got was a few Bronze League Hero's episodes.
Wouldnt surprise me if it turns out to be Life. Before he was famous he was ranked number 1 GM on korea several times. That was back when he was probably 14.
Imho it's not that impressive when you are very young. It's more impressive when you are old. I'd like to know who is the oldest GM player. If you are young you learn a lot faster and you have a lot more free time. If you tell your child to play like 8 hours a day since the age of 8 he'll be GM by the age of 12...
On May 24 2013 13:29 CableStarcraft wrote: I think it's a legitimate question & discussion. It says a lot about a person if they're the youngest to achieve certain thing. Like the youngest person to climb Everest - that's a pretty freakin big deal.
Likewise, with the skills, strategy, and intelligence, focus, training, coordination and mechanics required with StarCraft as a competitive game especially, I think that young peoples' accomplishments are even more impressive when they're that young. What were you doing at 13-15? Picking your nose and playing Putt-Putt?
On May 24 2013 13:29 Ratch! wrote:
On May 24 2013 13:26 synd wrote: Who cares? What's the point of all these threads like "who's the youngest X Y Z"
Knowing doesnt hurt.
Thanks.
Really solid defence. You justify the thread we get like every week or so by telling me I picked my nose at that age or whatever offensive shit you'll say.
Stop for a second and ask yourself. "What is a forum?" The answer is a place where people gather to discuss various topics/issues. It's an ancient word and an ancient tradition. If you don't like the conversation a few people are having, to to a different part of the forum and partake there.
Why do you have a right to tell other people to shut up mid conversation just because you think that what they are talking about has gotten old?
It would be interesting if people had information on a 10 year old GM or something of the sort. Get your needless negativity out of here plz.
Considering GM in Korea simply is alot harder then GM in EU and NA, it's not really fair if you were to compare them and find the youngest player in GM of any region. (and who actualy has the most young talent around at the highest level)
So pure statistic based on difficulty young players might have the highest % to succeed into NA Grand Master.
As a prodigy well we only have one right now and that's Life
On May 30 2013 19:46 mafaba wrote: Show me a 30 years old man with a family and a job whos gm, then iam impressed.
^ This. Being good at a game as a kid isnt impressive. You should be better than adults because you have more time to play + you have an easier time to learn things.