Well, the middle of the map sure look like a large swastika and that was enough for blizzard to suspend Kabel from battle.net for 7 days. (He was the one who published the map)
This includes names with racial, ethnic, or national connotations.
This is a warning against the above behavior, which Blizzard deems unacceptable for StarCraft II.
In addition to this warning, your game licence has been issued a suspension as detailed above. Your game licence will not be available for play during this time.
As the account holder, you are responsible for the activity associated with this game licence. Further violations will result in harsher suspensions or permanent closure.
This was a map that was used in the 2011-2012 SK Planet Proleague Season 1. They don't know their own games anymore....
I guess I post this to make people aware of how little can get you suspended and that blizzard perhaps becomes aware of old BW - maps.
Today my account got suspended because I have a map uploaded called Snipers Ridge. It is an identical remake of an old popular BW map with the same name and layout. You can watch the original here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/508_Sniper Ridge
I did not mean to express anything racial with this, nor did I intend to be hateful versus other ethnic groups or nationalities. It was just an old classic map I uploaded for me and my friends to play Starcraft on.
I would appreciate if my penalty can be removed, so I can get back on battle.net and play again.
If this can not be changed, can you atleast do me an other favor?
Please remove all uploaded maps and MOD-files on my account. I am working on a map project together with some other players, and since I am the uploader, no additional patches, updates or maps can be uploaded. (Since my account is locked.)
If the content is removed, then someone else in our mapping group can become the uploader instead, and thereby upload the latest updates for our project. In this way, my suspension will atleast not affect all other players who enjoy to play on the maps we create.
Sorry I was not able to chat online with you about this account action
Following a review of your case, I can confirm that the evidence presented was correct, and that the subsequent action taken was appropriate. Our decision in this matter stands, and will not be overturned.
Please note, it is our policy never to reveal details regarding account investigations, beyond the information given in the original notice mail, for privacy and security reasons.
We now consider this matter closed, and would not look to enter into further communication on the matter.
I hope this has been helpful, and should you ever need help in future, feel free to make another ticket and I will do my best to be the one that replies
Regards, Korethind English Game Master Team Blizzard Europe
Wow, that's a shame. There's been a handful of maps with that on there no? I cant think of any right now but I feel like they exist. Hopefully the suspension gets reversed.
As much as this topic might get out of hand with BLIZZARD SUCKSS ISN'T IN TOUCH WITH FANSSSS
I really doubt that the mod team that actually does this stuff follows BW, does the research and what not. They see a sign that looks like a swastika and that's why they suspended them. Simple as that.
The difference is, in sc2 if you upload a map to bnet, it is basically Blizzard's map. I can agree this is a bit overboard, but you can't compare the situation to bw.
That's fine, but the swastika as a symbol predates the Nazis by thousands of years.
It's very unfortunate that in modern times, it was adopted by the Nazi Party, but it's been used all over the world to mean something completely different.
Once again, I'm going to point out that the swastika in that map has the opposite rotation from the one that the Nazis used, so the moderation was baseless and made out of ignorance.
On April 11 2013 04:23 kingjames01 wrote: Also, the swastika that the Nazis used rotated clockwise... So this doesn't even match!
I have really limited knowledge on the matter, but as far as I know, both configurations are frowned upon because, since the flags could be seen from both sides, both shapes got to be associated with the Nazi party.
Sucks for the mapmaker ;s goes to show how the customer support / GM's aren't necessarily the people who know the game the most lol
I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
On April 11 2013 04:23 kingjames01 wrote: Also, the swastika that the Nazis used rotated clockwise... So this doesn't even match!
I have really limited knowledge on the matter, but as far as I know, both configurations are frowned upon because, since the flags could be seen from both sides, both shapes got to be associated with the Nazi party.
Sucks for the mapmaker ;s goes to show how the customer support / GM's aren't necessarily the people who know the game the most lol
No, the nazi swastika rotates clockwise. That people frown upon anti clockwise ones (and the ones used in other cultures) is just ignorance. This guys' ban is a double fail by some employee but I imagine he could get his ban lifted.
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Well if its a game you made and then tried to sue into oblivion...I would imagine someone would have too.
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Because people who actually care about what they do would typically take 5 minutes to look into something before suspending the account of a paying customer.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
Maybe, but a ban is a bit excessive don't you think? It's just a mistake.
Blizzard scum doesn't deserve the IP rights to their franchise. They're sooooooo rude to their players and communities. This is really making it easier for me to ignore legacy of the void when it's released in 10 years.
On April 11 2013 04:38 Inimic wrote: Blizzard scum doesn't deserve the IP rights to their franchise. They're sooooooo rude to their players and communities. This is really making it easier for me to ignore legacy of the void when it's released in 10 years.
i have fantasized of such thing...but being a slave to starcraft i have no choice but to get all starcraft no matter how much i dislike the game shame on blizzard for taking advantage of us T.T
as for op, its understandable that blizzard would do something like that but it should clear up easily after educating them about sniper ridge and how nazi didnt actually invent the swastika and has been part of many different cultures unrelated to nazi influence
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Lol the focus is more on the ignorance of Blizzard in this regard. Didn't even bother to search up the old BW map. Stupid regardless for a mark that bears the resemblance of a Swastika. Why would a guy who made such a detailed mod go out of his way to make a stupid racist symbol on this map?
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
Buddists might not be too please that you say that. I disagree with the ban, though I am neutral on removing the map.
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Well if its a game you made and then tried to sue into oblivion...I would imagine someone would have too.
I didn't know Blizzard hired lawyers to be on their mod team. I guess that makes sense with all the excess lawyers around these days.
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Because people who actually care about what they do would typically take 5 minutes to look into something before suspending the account of a paying customer.
Not even saying it's excusable cause it's obviously a mistake but I bet you the mod team consists of something like 1-2 people, probably interns, getting hundreds of requests a day and they just autopilot through them. It's a silly mistake, not sure why people want to make it more than that.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
Disagree. It is associated with the Nazi party in the western world, which is a small, albeit loud part of the world population. It is still a holy symbol in places like China and India, which comprise a huge chunk of the world's population. If anything, these type of policies are pretty racist against Asians.
I think a ban is a bit harsh. If Blizzard doesn't want to have those symbols in their game, Nazi symbol or not, they should just remove it and send the uploader a message why they did remove the map.
We have to deal with the swastika being treated as a Nazi symbol nowadays even if this one is actually different from the one that was used back then. But immediately banning a map maker for it is just wrong in my opinion.
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Lol the focus is more on the ignorance of Blizzard in this regard. Didn't even bother to search up the old BW map. Stupid regardless for a mark that bears the resemblance of a Swastika. Why would a guy who made such a detailed mod go out of his way to make a stupid racist symbol on this map?
Because Blizzard mod team should know all there is to know about eSports in Korea? Come on, be realistic here.
However, the nazi's in Germany used one facing right and this one faces left. And unlike a flag, you cannot watch a map from both sides (i.e. from underground).
How about you try to not make maps with inverted swastikas on them, no matter what old maps you are trying to copy? Is that too much common sense for you?
On April 11 2013 04:41 SnowfaLL wrote: typical blizzard really; I had my name banned on Europe before.. yes, this name, "SnowfaLL" - was banned as sexual content..
How can SnowfaLL can be understood as sexual ? Is my understanding of English too limited ?
Blizzard striving to follow the ever-so-successful EA business model: fuck over your fanbase repeatedly, still sell millions of new (and shittier-than-predecessor) titles.
I think this current community is built on the hatred of Blizzard or something. Even though it's probably the smallest part of the SC2 team that made this mistake, down with Blizzard!
I bet a very large % of the people here wouldn't know this was a BW map without it being in the OP
On April 11 2013 04:50 OpticalShot wrote: Blizzard striving to follow the ever-so-successful EA business model: fuck over your fanbase repeatedly, still sell millions of new (and shittier-than-predecessor) titles.
Maybe we should get them voted as worst company for 2014?
Blizzard striving to follow the ever-so-successful EA business model: fuck over your fanbase repeatedly, still sell millions of new (and shittier-than-predecessor) titles.
It'll be hard to one-up EA on that front, but I'm sure they'll try their hardest.
On April 11 2013 04:23 kingjames01 wrote: Also, the swastika that the Nazis used rotated clockwise... So this doesn't even match!
I have really limited knowledge on the matter, but as far as I know, both configurations are frowned upon because, since the flags could be seen from both sides, both shapes got to be associated with the Nazi party.
Sucks for the mapmaker ;s goes to show how the customer support / GM's aren't necessarily the people who know the game the most lol
No, the nazi swastika rotates clockwise. That people frown upon anti clockwise ones (and the ones used in other cultures) is just ignorance. This guys' ban is a double fail by some employee but I imagine he could get his ban lifted.
When I say "both shapes got to be associated", I'm not saying it was rightfully so lol. In the end, Blizzard will want to limit what the users view as offensive. If (ignorant) users do find it offensive, Blizzard will issue approprate action.
In other words, you have to picture that, on the other side of the report (because, if you read the message, it implicates that the map was reported as offensive as far as I know), you may well have some random dude whose entire ancestry was whiped by Nazi Germany, and Blizzard not listening to him would just be a much bigger rep hit than just temp banning some random dude. Imagine the head GM at blizzard having to report to the finance team, because his department didn't ban a map featuring a Swatiska, and it ended in 50 different blogs, and people allegedly started boycotting the game because of that.
I'm not saying what Blizzard did was good (as far as I'm concerned I don't really mind the Swatiska by itself to be honest, although I'm obviously not happy about what happened during WW2), I'm just saying that the customer rep's reaction was logical and totally expectable.
On April 11 2013 04:50 OpticalShot wrote: Blizzard striving to follow the ever-so-successful EA business model: fuck over your fanbase repeatedly, still sell millions of new (and shittier-than-predecessor) titles.
Comparing Blizzard with EA is just stupidity on your part and you should feel bad for even suggesting it. As someone who bought SimCity(lol), FIFA for the Vita (lol) and Madden for the Vita (lol), stop being overdramatic.
On April 11 2013 04:50 OpticalShot wrote: Blizzard striving to follow the ever-so-successful EA business model: fuck over your fanbase repeatedly, still sell millions of new (and shittier-than-) titles.
If this is an example you can find of "fucking over your fanbase", you are really stretching it.
Omg Blizzard doesn't like maps with swastikas on them, how dare they!
If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
On April 11 2013 04:41 SnowfaLL wrote: typical blizzard really; I had my name banned on Europe before.. yes, this name, "SnowfaLL" - was banned as sexual content..
How can SnowfaLL can be understood as sexual ? Is my understanding of English too limited ?
LordGeneral, LordSolar, and LordMilitant are all banned names. Lord is not, Inquisitor is not and names like Ursarkar, Adrastia and Yarrick are all usable.
Oh, ChaosLord is usable too. I'd declare a crusade against the now obvious powers of Chaos at Blizzard, but I fear their power is too great.
Are you sure it's because of the swastika ? The letter from Blizzard makes it sound like they don't like the name "Sniper Ridge", though that reason is equally stupid.
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW.
Removing the map is one thing, but I still disagree with the ban though. It's an honest, if stupid, mistake.
Blizzard employee makes mistake? Shit happens. Map not allowed because looks too much like nazi swastika? Ok. Ban not lifted after explanation? Very disappointing.
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
it seems intentionally offensive to any westerner, you mean
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
How? "The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good" or "auspicious," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". "
That's totally different from the nazi one o_O How can people even mix them up, they're 45 degrees bent to begin with
On April 11 2013 04:44 HeeroFX wrote: Looks like a swastika to me.
Cause you dont' know history. It's not a swastika, it's a religious symbol and has been for much longer than when the Nazi's tried to use it.
Either configuration is illegal in Germany, for reason I am sure I don't need to detail. That is the main reason why most games and media do not ever use the symbol. Not shocked by the ban, this is no joke for some people.
The ban might have been a bit harsh, I don't think it was, and I certainly agree with the map removal, no company wants to be associated with the Nazi's at all.
PS. Blizzard ruining freedom of speech! /trollface
Fact is, that symbol is still a hate symbol, in whatever form it's used. Try waving a 45-degree rotated classic swastika and call it a religious symbol and see how long you last in Germany.
Political correctness is fine, but not when it becomes this silly. I agree fully with Blizzard.
On April 11 2013 04:53 Shikyo wrote: Um that swastika isn't anything negative.
I'm pretty sure the Finnish air force had that swastika as well. It's a positive sign
I think we did way more bad under that sign than the Finnish Air Force did well. It is perfectly understandable that the sign is regarded as offensive.
Completely fine with Blizzards decision. Doesn't matter if its inverted, doesn't matter what it meant before the Nazi Party, the point is 90% of the people will think of swastika in one way or another when they see this image, 89.9% won't care, 0.1% have potential to stir up a tone of shit for blizzard. And this opens up a door for some crazy news segment or newspaper article stating that Blizzard a gaming company that sells games to little kids and are endorsing the Nazi Party, Hitler, Holocosts etc, no matter how tiny of chance that is, they can't take it, simple PR.
On April 11 2013 04:44 HeeroFX wrote: Looks like a swastika to me.
Cause you dont' know history. It's not a swastika, it's a religious symbol and has been for much longer than when the Nazi's tried to use it.
Either configuration is illegal in Germany, for reason I am sure I don't need to detail. That is the main reason why most games and media do not ever use the symbol. Not shocked by the ban, this is no joke for some people.
Ah really? We see it here in Korea a lot, I believe it's used for religious purposes, never walked in one though.
On April 11 2013 05:00 eskimoaN wrote: that's a manji, not a swastika... I've seen it on temples in Korea. It's a symbol of good luck. Here are some links:
thats the thing, most people (and blizzard) dont give a single fuck on correctness and would cry foul. everything in the world revolves around western culture, who gives a fuck about asian culture.
On April 11 2013 04:44 HeeroFX wrote: Looks like a swastika to me.
Cause you dont' know history. It's not a swastika, it's a religious symbol and has been for much longer than when the Nazi's tried to use it.
Either configuration is illegal in Germany, for reason I am sure I don't need to detail. That is the main reason why most games and media do not ever use the symbol. Not shocked by the ban, this is no joke for some people.
Ah really? We see it here in Korea a lot, I believe it's used for religious purposes, never walked in one though.
On April 11 2013 04:27 grs wrote: The difference is, in sc2 if you upload a map to bnet, it is basically Blizzard's map. I can agree this is a bit overboard, but you can't compare the situation to bw.
That's the exact problem, though. When a huge studio/publisher gives themself too much control, they can't help but do random, petty things like this.
On April 11 2013 05:00 eskimoaN wrote: that's a manji, not a swastika... I've seen it on temples in Korea. It's a symbol of good luck. Here are some links:
thats the thing, most people (and blizzard) dont give a single fuck on correctness and would cry foul. everything in the world revolves around western culture, who gives a fuck about asian culture.
It was on the EU server, by the EU department of Blizzard. I think it is ok, to apply western standards there.
Found the original thread with the new KeSPA maps amusing enough as is... Fuck Blizzard anyway, I can kinda see asking Gossen to take down the map (if they are to retarded to actually do some research of their own about the map) but banning and keeping the ban despite the explanation just doesn't really justify any other comment than that one with the tire iron... But I digress, guess what's good enough for OGN to air is too taboo for b.net.
On April 11 2013 04:48 Bagi wrote: It's funny how you can get upset over this.
How about you try to not make maps with inverted swastikas on them, no matter what old maps you are trying to copy? Is that too much common sense for you?
So let me get this straight. Because around 70 years ago, some douchebag with a funny moustache killed a bunch of people while wearing a certain symbol, this shape and any similar shape (even if it has been around for thousands of years in various other cultures) is PERMANENTLY BANNED from ever being used in anything for the rest of human history.
A long while back I started working on a map that had a bikini wearing girl right in the middle of it. Later on I realized that I wouldn't be able to share the map with just a couple of friends for a few laughs like I could do on SC1, since maps are uploaded and shared with whoever finds them. Blizzard has censorship rules like this in place in case you hurt someone else's sensibilities, so uploading a bikini girl map could get me in trouble, and I ditched the idea. Well, that's the excuse I'm using, since once I finished the 'artsy' bits using the editor's brushes, I got too lazy to continue working on the balancing, triggers or anything else.
I'm thinking I could do this with a face, instead of a full body. It'd be less problematic censorship wise (less fun as well, I guess) but I seriously have no clue regarding balance or what makes a map fun, but drawing stuff on it is a challenge I enjoyed.
Regarding Kabel and his map, I don't think the swastika resemblance was intentional. Blizzard has no way of knowing if something offensive was intentional or not, so they stick to their guidelines and ban you accordingly. It does make for people being wary about what they upload but I guess that means the guidelines are working as intended.
I am very disappointed by this. God forbid that we acknowledge other cultures and instantly jump to the worst/ignorant conclusion, you know? If he is not unbanned, we should all send emails to Blizzard for improper reaction to this situation and it will force a difficult situation on them that they were hoping to avoid anyway and this will hopefully allow them to change their procedures.
On April 11 2013 04:44 HeeroFX wrote: Looks like a swastika to me.
Cause you dont' know history. It's not a swastika, it's a religious symbol and has been for much longer than when the Nazi's tried to use it.
Either configuration is illegal in Germany, for reason I am sure I don't need to detail. That is the main reason why most games and media do not ever use the symbol. Not shocked by the ban, this is no joke for some people.
Ah really? We see it here in Korea a lot, I believe it's used for religious purposes, never walked in one though.
Germany takes Nazis and anything association with them very seriously. They still have Nazis in their country to this day, in small numbers(much like any extremist in a country). Their history with Nazi movement is a blight on their country and they do not joke around at all when it comes to anything relating to the Nazi party. There is no room for nuance either, as they still have Nazis looking for the graves of party members and all sorts of other weird shit.
All politics are local. Across the world the simple is a harmless symbol. To Germany, it is a blight on their history and the symbol worshiped by extremist to this day.
Well i agree on blizzard removing it , i mean there are the people who really sufferd and probably know the way the simbol really looks and there are the people who just feel offended by everything and report this , why would blizzard bother , i don't agree on the bad , they should just email the guy and say there are some people who find your map offensive and we will remove it. I wonder when will we get over this period of OMFG i am gonna sue you for everything. I wonder how long until we stop searching similarities with these 8 lines and scream. Should we forget and forgive , no , should we blame people who aren't even born at that period , no.
On April 11 2013 04:41 SnowfaLL wrote: typical blizzard really; I had my name banned on Europe before.. yes, this name, "SnowfaLL" - was banned as sexual content..
How can SnowfaLL can be understood as sexual ? Is my understanding of English too limited ?
I don't get it either.
Also, this is insane. There's so many maps you could end up even accidentally with that same symbol - it's an obvious 4 player rotational symmetry. -_-
Just Blizzard employees making sure that the ignorance of the swastika symbol propagates. Personally I'd rather the symbol slowly goes back to its original meaning, instead of forcibly hammering into every new generation that any swastika (even when both the direction and the angle are wrong) equates to the support of a former political entity bent on genocide. To each its own.
On April 11 2013 05:00 eskimoaN wrote: that's a manji, not a swastika... I've seen it on temples in Korea. It's a symbol of good luck. Here are some links:
thats the thing, most people (and blizzard) dont give a single fuck on correctness and would cry foul. everything in the world revolves around western culture, who gives a fuck about asian culture.
Its on the EU server, where Germany is and it is illegal to have the symbol in a game in Germany.
On April 11 2013 05:10 El Caz wrote: A long while back I started working on a map that had a bikini wearing girl right in the middle of it. Later on I realized that I wouldn't be able to share the map with just a couple of friends for a few laughs like I could do on SC1, since maps are uploaded and shared with whoever finds them. Blizzard has censorship rules like this in place in case you hurt someone else's sensibilities, so uploading a bikini girl map could get me in trouble, and I ditched the idea. Well, that's the excuse I'm using, since once I finished the 'artsy' bits using the editor's brushes, I got too lazy to continue working on the balancing, triggers or anything else.
I'm thinking I could do this with a face, instead of a full body. It'd be less problematic censorship wise (less fun as well, I guess) but I seriously have no clue regarding balance or what makes a map fun, but drawing stuff on it is a challenge I enjoyed.
Regarding Kabel and his map, I don't think the swastika resemblance was intentional. Blizzard has no way of knowing if something offensive was intentional or not, so they stick to their guidelines and ban you accordingly. It does make for people being wary about what they upload but I guess that means the guidelines are working as intended.
And teoreticly the age needed to play BW , is a little bigger then the age needed to see a girl in a bikiny :D
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
How? "The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good" or "auspicious," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". "
That's totally different from the nazi one o_O How can people even mix them up, they're 45 degrees bent to begin with
Again the finnish air force had those exact ones
You already know how it's offensive. Show a Westerner a swastika or a sauwastika and 99 times out of 100 they'll tell you that's the Nazi symbol of hatred. It doesn't matter that you specifically have looked into the origin of the symbol, it matters that there are 99 other people to match you who haven't. Additionally, both versions (left-facing and right-facing) were present in the Nazi regime, although only one of them was used on the flag.
Bottom line, it would be a huge battle for Blizzard to host such a map on their servers (you'll notice it already got reported, so someone obviously noticed and objected to it) and it's a much safer route just to remove it. The suspension is unfortunate.
This clearly shows that the Blizzard staff are clearly uneducated and are complete historical imbeciles.
Firstly the map does not depict a Nazi Swastika. The Nazi emblem has 90 degree bends clockwise, as the map shows the bends to the counter clockwise.
MAP
NAZI version
However, I do feel, a good usage of the symbol, and clearly the map was based off the inverse symbols usage at the Red Swastika School which is a government aided PRIMARY school in Singapore. Possibly the Broodwar map designer was a former student? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Swastika_School
While both directions are consider swastikas, as they are the inverse of each other, only the RIGHT HAND bend is associated with the Nazi party.
On April 11 2013 05:00 eskimoaN wrote: that's a manji, not a swastika... I've seen it on temples in Korea. It's a symbol of good luck. Here are some links:
thats the thing, most people (and blizzard) dont give a single fuck on correctness and would cry foul. everything in the world revolves around western culture, who gives a fuck about asian culture.
Its on the EU server, where Germany is and it is illegal to have the symbol in a game in Germany.
Where does the uploader comes from? Thats the only thing that matter. If he is from Poland for example i am pretty confident he would won in court should he wanted to challange Blizzard (we have some precedences in similiar cases). Obviously noone is going to sue Blizzard for something like that, too much trouble for too little gain.
Ps. We have laws prohibiting Nazi propaganda but it has been already established in courts that symbol itself does not constitute nazi propaganda.
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
How? "The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good" or "auspicious," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". "
That's totally different from the nazi one o_O How can people even mix them up, they're 45 degrees bent to begin with
Again the finnish air force had those exact ones
You already know how it's offensive. Show a Westerner a swastika or a sauwastika and 99 times out of 100 they'll tell you that's the Nazi symbol of hatred. It doesn't matter that you specifically have looked into the origin of the symbol, it matters that there are 99 other people to match you who haven't. Additionally, both versions (left-facing and right-facing) were present in the Nazi regime, although only one of them was used on the flag.
Bottom line, it would be a huge battle for Blizzard to host such a map on their servers (you'll notice it already got reported, so someone obviously noticed and objected to it) and it's a much safer route just to remove it. The suspension is unfortunate.
It was also on the EU server and Germany still makes showing the Swastika in any format illegal. If you read the wiki, they still have problems with Neo Nazi in 2005. I doubt they have gone away.
They do realize that isn't even a "bad" Swastika right?
That is the nazi swastika, notice the change in the angle at which the symbol is set. That is the one people hate because of it's significance with the Nazi Party
This is the indian swastika, this one is a symbol of auspiciousness and has been a symbol from the Indus Valley since time immemorial, look at the similarity.
You have no idea of the difficulties this entailed. But then again, people running a simple flower shop like Blizzard might not understand the idea of Google.
I'm sorry, but this ban is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Delete the map if you don't want it on battle.net but anybody with half a brain should very clearly see there was no malicious intent with the reproduction and publication of this map.
I highly doubt that Blizzard is going to take the time to change anything though. I'm sure they get all kinds of appeals on the bans the dole out. Just write the 7 days off as a loss and remember to tip toe around the sensitive natures of those who hold power over you in the future.
I can understand keeping the map off b.net, it's just common sense. Regardless of the origins or orientation of the symbol itself, the vast majority of people will associate it with Nazism. It may be ignorant, but it's just the way it is.
However, keeping the user banned in light of clear evidence that there was no intent to break the ToS or otherwise be malicious is pretty stupid.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
On April 11 2013 04:34 motbob wrote: I am not sure why you expect Blizzard moderators to have a detailed knowledge of an eSport that is unpopular in the West.
Because people who actually care about what they do would typically take 5 minutes to look into something before suspending the account of a paying customer.
you should work as support some time. They have their lists on how to act towards certain things. And it is also heavily influenced by the one that will work on the report. You could say they are extremely biased.
And this happened before, they banned a WoL map 2ish years ago were mob movement would build this as well. And it was sorta a small upset, because a rumor slipped by that the author really intended this, so I guess Blizzard is more sensible towards this. And the support maybe even checked for old cases, which resulted in the ban.
Also high chance if you end up on a low payed support line, that the person doesn't care. Which happens often when you use free services.
I don't really care for Blizzard being over sensitive, everyone is it these days. Because a few drama queens can raise a huge mob within a day. So rather blame those white knights searching the Internet for stuff they can report ...
Its always so annoying when this kinda stuff happens.
From not allowing Jaedong to use his name (even if its due to some automated filter) to not allowing any sort of english (other languages are fine apparently) curse word in a map that you don't even want people outside of your own group of friends to play... (and you can't play such a map in some sort of LAN environment, so you're stuck with the policies).
I know the arguments for this kind of censorship, but it's still annoying as hell to deal with.
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
How? "The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good" or "auspicious," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". "
That's totally different from the nazi one o_O How can people even mix them up, they're 45 degrees bent to begin with
Again the finnish air force had those exact ones
You already know how it's offensive. Show a Westerner a swastika or a sauwastika and 99 times out of 100 they'll tell you that's the Nazi symbol of hatred. It doesn't matter that you specifically have looked into the origin of the symbol, it matters that there are 99 other people to match you who haven't.
I'm Polish and I can tell that most people in here know swastika was not only used as nazi symbol.
Poor dude got suspended, and map was being used durring BW in proleague when blizzard had their logos in booths, caster desks and such durring matches. Example : + Show Spoiler +
so by their logic, they did support hateful message while promoting this league using this hateful map
So why does TeamLiquid use nazi maps in 2013???? Should have known that's a nazi symbol, right? I think it's time to email sponsors (blizzard) to demand the removal of TL players from WCS.
On April 11 2013 05:37 hypercube wrote: Stupid decision and will probably get overturned on a higher level.
But you gotta admit that's an unfortunate looking map. IDK what the Kespa guys were thinking when they made it.
For East Asians, it's just a common Buddhist symbol. When [Ragnarok]Valkyrie (who is a Korean, and Korea can be found in East Asia) made the map, it probably felt as normal to him as you or I putting a star shape in our maps. It happens to be one of my favorite maps actually because of the high ground dynamics.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
Or even closer to home, their association with the beautiful music of Anton Bruckner and Richard Wagner.
On April 11 2013 05:37 hypercube wrote: Stupid decision and will probably get overturned on a higher level.
But you gotta admit that's an unfortunate looking map. IDK what the Kespa guys were thinking when they made it.
They were thinking of the common symbol you see throughout asia, for korean bw scene.
Yeah, well some things don't translate well when you go to other countries. Take the word "fanny" when you travel from the US to England. In one country the word is harmless. The other, not so much. All politics are local. Some symbols mean different things to different people.
Come on now blizzard, why are you being dumb and ignorant about it? It doesn't even turn the same way as the nazi sign, or have the same colours... I'd just say that the blizzard administrator isn't really putting up a "hi guys, we're educated!" sign...
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
I'm sorry, but "that easy?" They killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political enemies, etc. etc. under that symbol. It's not like Germany adopted the swastika, threatened to bomb someone, but ended up backing out. They used it as a rallying symbol for a decade's worth of rape, pillaging, and mass genocide. Mass genocide trumps "millenia" of goodness any day of the week, especially considering the latest use being to embroil the entire world into a war that ended up with nukes being lobbed around.
At any rate, what server was this loaded up to? Blizzard Europe, right? They could be worried about German censorship laws, what with their banning of the swastika and what not. If they left it up, and the German government got a hold of them, it could be trouble. So sorry guys, Blizzard still isn't the evil bastard you all like to think he is.
Fact is, that symbol is still a hate symbol, in whatever form it's used. Try waving a 45-degree rotated classic swastika and call it a religious symbol and see how long you last in Germany.
Political correctness is fine, but not when it becomes this silly. I agree fully with Blizzard.
What? Blizzard's response was the politically correct one.
This is like getting banned for saying 'niggardly.'
So why does TeamLiquid use nazi maps in 2013???? Should have known that's a nazi symbol, right? I think it's time to email sponsors (blizzard) to demand the removal of TL players from WCS.
really? TL bw has nothing to do with SC2 squad and it's not the swastika symbol that the nazis used. All of us BW players already know that so we don't care about it. Plus, the map is fun to play on as well.
saddens me to see stuff like this is happening, even though this might get fixed eventualy, there might be hundreds of cases that will never see daylight.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
I'm sorry, but "that easy?" They killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political enemies, etc. etc. under that symbol. It's not like Germany adopted the swastika, threatened to bomb someone, but ended up backing out. They used it as a rallying symbol for a decade's worth of rape, pillaging, and mass genocide. Mass genocide trumps "millenia" of goodness any day of the week, especially considering the latest use being to embroil the entire world into a war that ended up with nukes being lobbed around.
At any rate, what server was this loaded up to? Blizzard Europe, right? They could be worried about German censorship laws, what with their banning of the swastika and what not. If they left it up, and the German government got a hold of them, it could be trouble. So sorry guys, Blizzard still isn't the evil bastard you all like to think he is.
It was Europe and was likely taken down to the German laws you referenced. This is what happens when the game is global, you have to accept that some people view things differently than you.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
I'm sorry, but "that easy?" They killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political enemies, etc. etc. under that symbol. It's not like Germany adopted the swastika, threatened to bomb someone, but ended up backing out. They used it as a rallying symbol for a decade's worth of rape, pillaging, and mass genocide. Mass genocide trumps "millenia" of goodness any day of the week, especially considering the latest use being to embroil the entire world into a war that ended up with nukes being lobbed around.
At any rate, what server was this loaded up to? Blizzard Europe, right? They could be worried about German censorship laws, what with their banning of the swastika and what not. If they left it up, and the German government got a hold of them, it could be trouble. So sorry guys, Blizzard still isn't the evil bastard you all like to think he is.
Ah yes, the microcosmic view of history, localized to one continent.
I'm glad the narrowmindedness of human nature is still strong.
Come on, the BW version has an even more clearly defined swastika in the middle, guess Blizzard has to ban Proleague since they used it.....after all, someone might think that the maker is a nazi and not someone trying to promote interesting gameplay. Political Correctness
I can understand why they would decide to ban based on their initial reaction, but I don't understand how they can uphold the ban once the situation was explained to them. I understand that that shape has become associated with the nazi party for obvious reasons, but the fact is that it really is just a shape. If they used the letter "N" rather than a swastika would we change our alphabets to stop using the letter "N"? I think it is a bit ridiculous to essentially ban the use of a geometric shape because of its history of use a symbol, as horrible as that history may be.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
I'm sorry, but "that easy?" They killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political enemies, etc. etc. under that symbol. It's not like Germany adopted the swastika, threatened to bomb someone, but ended up backing out. They used it as a rallying symbol for a decade's worth of rape, pillaging, and mass genocide. Mass genocide trumps "millenia" of goodness any day of the week, especially considering the latest use being to embroil the entire world into a war that ended up with nukes being lobbed around.
At any rate, what server was this loaded up to? Blizzard Europe, right? They could be worried about German censorship laws, what with their banning of the swastika and what not. If they left it up, and the German government got a hold of them, it could be trouble. So sorry guys, Blizzard still isn't the evil bastard you all like to think he is.
Ah yes, the microcosmic view of history, localized to one continent.
I'm glad the narrowmindedness of human nature is still strong.
Localized to a country that is still ashamed of its history with that symbol and that still has a problem with Neo Nazis today. There is a reason they have that law the books in Germany and Blizzard isn't going to fight them about it. I am sure German players don't want to deal with the of the German government vs Blizzard and the map that kinda looks like a Nazi symbol.
On April 11 2013 04:53 motbob wrote: If the original Sniper Ridge map did not exist, no one would claim that removing the b.net version is a perfectly legitimate exercise of Blizzard's power. The fact that the original map does exist does not change the situation in any significant way. There is no case against Blizzard here. The map seems intentionally offensive to anyone who did not follow competitive BW, and more than 99% of the b.net community did not follow competitive BW. The fact that "it's backwards" is not significant either in determining whether the map is offensive.
Excuse me, but bullshit, thinking it through. They essentially (by this move) stated that since the buddhist swastiska on SR somehow looks like the nazi symbol and are basically the same. It wouldn't have been better or worse if the original map didn't exist, it's slapping east-Asian culture. Honestly, to me it's the same as if I go someone saying "hi, you're nice" and they interpret it as "fuck you", now that would be my bad if I didn't correct them and made sure they understood that I meant the opposite.
Regardless, the swastika being a sun-symbol etc is suppsoed to be common knowledge?? I don't get it
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
I'm sorry, but "that easy?" They killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political enemies, etc. etc. under that symbol. It's not like Germany adopted the swastika, threatened to bomb someone, but ended up backing out. They used it as a rallying symbol for a decade's worth of rape, pillaging, and mass genocide. Mass genocide trumps "millenia" of goodness any day of the week, especially considering the latest use being to embroil the entire world into a war that ended up with nukes being lobbed around.
At any rate, what server was this loaded up to? Blizzard Europe, right? They could be worried about German censorship laws, what with their banning of the swastika and what not. If they left it up, and the German government got a hold of them, it could be trouble. So sorry guys, Blizzard still isn't the evil bastard you all like to think he is.
Ah yes, the microcosmic view of history, localized to one continent.
I'm glad the narrowmindedness of human nature is still strong.
Localized to a country that is still ashamed of its history with that symbol and that still has a problem with Neo Nazis today. There is a reason they have that law the books in Germany and Blizzard isn't going to fight them about it. I am sure German players don't want to deal with the of the German government vs Blizzard and the map that kinda looks like a Nazi symbol.
Keep in mind the Blizzard GM did not say, "The symbol is considered offensive to some people, even though you did not mean it to be and are copying a map that uses a traditional interpretation of the symbol." The GM said, "You tried to offend people with an offensive symbol."
i can see why your angry - and I do think the ban is excessive.
but i can understand why they ban the map.
regardless of whether it is acutally the nazy symbol or not - it IS being associated with the nazis.
The game is a global game,and you can't expect symbols that are considered this offensive somewhere, to be allowed just because its not somewhere else.
It really doesn't matter if its used in religious context in some parts of Asia - when its a complete no go in places like Germany.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
Disagree. It is associated with the Nazi party in the western world, which is a small, albeit loud part of the world population. It is still a holy symbol in places like China and India, which comprise a huge chunk of the world's population. If anything, these type of policies are pretty racist against Asians.
Exactly. All one needs to do is go to the Wikipedia page on swastika to see an extensive list of the symbol's uses outside of Nazism (and it's a fairly simple shape, so it's not a surprise to see it randomly occur in a map such as this - and technically this isn't even right-facing, like the Nazi version of the symbol is). Yet Blizzard's employees don't recognize this, and removing the map or not, even after discovering the creator's non-racist intent, won't even comply with either of his simple, reasonable requests (unban him, or at least free up his maps to others).
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
How can you just shit on an entire culture that uses it as a symbol of positivity and being good?
Does that mean if the Germans had, for whatever arbitrary reason, selected Denmark's coat of arms as their symbol, because thats just as arbitrary as picking a Swastika, then you would be ashamed to reference your own country's coat of arms because it was associated with Nazism?
Is it that easy to pollute an idea? Especially something like the Swastika which has been used for millenia as a symbol of goodness?
I'm sorry, but "that easy?" They killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, political enemies, etc. etc. under that symbol. It's not like Germany adopted the swastika, threatened to bomb someone, but ended up backing out. They used it as a rallying symbol for a decade's worth of rape, pillaging, and mass genocide. Mass genocide trumps "millenia" of goodness any day of the week, especially considering the latest use being to embroil the entire world into a war that ended up with nukes being lobbed around.
At any rate, what server was this loaded up to? Blizzard Europe, right? They could be worried about German censorship laws, what with their banning of the swastika and what not. If they left it up, and the German government got a hold of them, it could be trouble. So sorry guys, Blizzard still isn't the evil bastard you all like to think he is.
Ah yes, the microcosmic view of history, localized to one continent.
I'm glad the narrowmindedness of human nature is still strong.
Localized to a country that is still ashamed of its history with that symbol and that still has a problem with Neo Nazis today. There is a reason they have that law the books in Germany and Blizzard isn't going to fight them about it. I am sure German players don't want to deal with the of the German government vs Blizzard and the map that kinda looks like a Nazi symbol.
Keep in mind the Blizzard GM did not say, "The symbol is considered offensive to some people, even though you did not mean it to be and are copying a map that uses a traditional interpretation of the symbol." The GM said, "You tried to offend people with an offensive symbol."
That's what the ban and upholding it means.
Oh I don't agree with the ban or their response. The person who responded to him was a jerk and clearly he does not need to be banned for this. However, Blizzards reasoning for removing the map is totally reasonable, as it is the EU server and they don't want to cause problem with German laws.
On April 11 2013 06:06 dAPhREAk wrote: thats not a swastika, its the indian peace symbol, or location on asian maps for temples.
it doesnt matter - it similar enough to have the same associations. If it wasn't you wouldn't even have had to state that.
actually, the swastika associated with nazis is right facing. this swastika is left facing, which is only associated with buddhism and asian maps denoting temples. so, only people who are historically-illiterate would get it wrong and be offended.
Neither side is totally wrong or totally right if you ask me (not that anyone did hehe). What they probably should have done is ban the map, warn the creator and then be done with it. If the user continued to make more "offensive" content then an account ban would be in order.
Also, I imagine most people would immediately associate it with a swastika even if it's facing the wrong direction.
On April 11 2013 06:11 cKoL wrote: The Symbol is even banned from the public in germany and u get arrested by posting it in any form that doesnt show any education or historical use.
Here it was used in historical context, I'd say.
edit: also I wanted to add that what you wrote is wrong. You do not get arrested by posting it in any form that isn't bound to education or history. You get arrested by posting it in any form that glorifies nazis. Yes, people had been charged with using it, but the highest court in Germany ruled that it is illegal if it is not showing the nazis in a positive light (it was used on a "nazis out!" sticker).
And obviously we are talking about the nazi version of the swastika, not the budhist version.
On April 11 2013 06:13 AnomalySC2 wrote: Neither side is totally wrong or totally right if you ask me (not that anyone did hehe). What they probably should have done is ban the map, warn the creator and then be done with it. If the user continued to make more "offensive" content then an account ban would be in order.
Also, I imagine most people would immediately associate it with a swastika even if it's facing the wrong direction.
Disagree with Blizzard's decision. I dislike how the Nazi butchered this symbol. More people need to learn about their differences.
Both are illegal in Germany, which is the reason the map was removed.
I think that's speculative? It wasn't in the OP I read.
It doesn't need to be stated outright, that is why it as removed. Any symbol associated with Nazism is super illegal in German and they take that stuff super seriously. Movies and games are completely banned in the country for have a single Nazi symbol. And all the other politically correct reasons as well.
I wonder if the Blizzard employee even clicked on the Sniper Ridge link. I wonder if he even knows what Brood War is. I wonder if he thinks teamliquid.net is some front so mapmakers can make subtly offensive maps under the guise of remade content.
Lol what a joke. Let's repress all images of a symbol, because that symbol is evil! Its arbitrary shape incites people to genocide (except 90% of the world where its a recognized religious symbol). Disregard all the Nazi-founded companies still doing business to this day, they good.
To all this German law crap: Can you play sniper ridge in Germany on BW or does the secret police come and intern you?
Disagree with Blizzard's decision. I dislike how the Nazi butchered this symbol. More people need to learn about their differences.
Both are illegal in Germany, which is the reason the map was removed.
I think that's speculative? It wasn't in the OP I read.
It doesn't need to be stated outright, that is why it as removed. Any symbol associated with Nazism is super illegal in German and they take that stuff super seriously. Movies and games are completely banned in the country for have a single Nazi symbol. And all the other politically correct reasons as well.
Well, I edited my post earlier but I guess it was too late. Using the nazi symbol (yes, I am talking about the nazi version of the swastika, not the budhist version) is only illegal if it supports the nazi ideology or things associated to it. So you can actually use a crossed out version of the symbel in a "nazi out!" poster without legal problems. This is a ruling of the highest court in Germany in the year 2007.
As for why video games may not show nazi symbols even though they are clearly the bad guys (e.g. Wolfenstein)... I think that is actually allowed by now, according to the new ruling. Should any video game company sue the people responsible for banning the game, I think they have good chances of winning, it's just that no video game company bothers doing so.
Disagree with Blizzard's decision. I dislike how the Nazi butchered this symbol. More people need to learn about their differences.
Both are illegal in Germany, which is the reason the map was removed.
I think that's speculative? It wasn't in the OP I read.
It doesn't need to be stated outright, that is why it as removed. Any symbol associated with Nazism is super illegal in German and they take that stuff super seriously. Movies and games are completely banned in the country for have a single Nazi symbol. And all the other politically correct reasons as well.
Well, I edited my post earlier but I guess it was too late. Using the nazi symbol (yes, I am talking about the nazi version of the swastika, not the budhist version) is only illegal if it supports the nazi ideology or things associated to it. So you can actually use a crossed out version of the symbel in a "nazi out!" poster without legal problems. This is a ruling of the highest court in Germany in the year 2007.
I don't think Blizzard is really interested in that fight, but I see where you are coming from. Its a video game folks.
Just because Blizzard screwed up with making the map in the first place doesn't mean it should allow it to continue. I don't agree with the ban, but the map should obviously be deleted.
On April 11 2013 04:28 kingjames01 wrote: That's fine, but the swastika as a symbol predates the Nazis by thousands of years.
It's very unfortunate that in modern times, it was adopted by the Nazi Party, but it's been used all over the world to mean something completely different.
Once again, I'm going to point out that the swastika in that map has the opposite rotation from the one that the Nazis used, so the moderation was baseless and made out of ignorance.
Nonsense. What do people think when they see a swastika? Do they wonder about the direction of the rotation? Do they wonder about the multitude of meanings it had a thousand years ago?
It doesn't matter. A symbol means what people think it means. That is what makes it a symbol - that it means something to people. Intentional or not, this map is fail.
By the way, you know that Nazis were breathing. Maybe should ban breathing as well.
-.- /facepalm
---------
Voldemorts name have been banned and yet it did not stoped his return.
Imagine making fun of that name. Having "Street of Voldemorts defeat". I think that banning symbols/names is really really bad aproach in Anti-Nazism and Anti-Voldemort fight and those strategies should be rethinked.
Disagree with Blizzard's decision. I dislike how the Nazi butchered this symbol. More people need to learn about their differences.
Both are illegal in Germany, which is the reason the map was removed.
I think that's speculative? It wasn't in the OP I read.
It's true, I guess blizzard doesn't want to be banned from Germany for 7 days or more
They can remove the map without banning the player/mapmaker.
They can remove the map without the GM handling the ticket acting like a fucking cunt to the user that submitted it, whether the ban remains or not. To me that's the one part that you cannot possibly defend in any circumstance and with any argument. Like sure the usage of Swastika is questionable and a can of worms in and of itself, sure they are technically allowed to ban people for no reason. But you cannot dispute the fact that the GM responded like a complete and utter prick, for no reason whatsoever, in fact seemingly just to spite the guy that wrote the ticket. That is inexcusable.
Disagree with Blizzard's decision. I dislike how the Nazi butchered this symbol. More people need to learn about their differences.
Both are illegal in Germany, which is the reason the map was removed.
I think that's speculative? It wasn't in the OP I read.
It doesn't need to be stated outright, that is why it as removed. Any symbol associated with Nazism is super illegal in German and they take that stuff super seriously. Movies and games are completely banned in the country for have a single Nazi symbol. And all the other politically correct reasons as well.
Are you trying to say that the random guy who reviewed this map is versed in German law, or that Blizzard's general CYA policy against "offensive" material has a huge list of provisions like "no swastikas because German legal code" that we don't get to see (instead getting the generic watered down bit about offensive things) and the guy who reviewed the map correlated that provision with the Buddhist swastika on this map (despite that Buddhist symbols tend to be exempted from swastika censorship in Germany)? Or did someone from the Bundespolizei phone Blizzard and make them aware of this? And in any case, how did you get such inside information that the rest of us aren't privy to?
Everyone in this thread who supports the Blizzard decision should go search "Kyoto" in Google maps and proceed to write a letter to Google condemning them for using offensive imagery on their site.
On April 11 2013 06:31 Popkiller wrote: Everyone in this thread who supports the Blizzard decision should go search "Kyoto" in Google maps and proceed to write a letter to Google condemning them for using offensive imagery on their site.
I don't get it....i did it and i saw a map of the city of Kyoto? which is what I expected to see?
But in all seriousness guys blizzard has the right to do what they want you all agreed to it by hitting accept the Terms of use to play SC 2 and to create a battle.net.
I think Blizzard made an appropriate decision, but it's quite sad that a simple symbol with 3000+ year history cannot be used without hurting people just because a massively crazy people used it for their symbol. (Though, I don't think that is a Nazi symbol, because, as I know, they used it only in clockwise.)
On April 11 2013 04:28 kingjames01 wrote: That's fine, but the swastika as a symbol predates the Nazis by thousands of years.
It's very unfortunate that in modern times, it was adopted by the Nazi Party, but it's been used all over the world to mean something completely different.
Once again, I'm going to point out that the swastika in that map has the opposite rotation from the one that the Nazis used, so the moderation was baseless and made out of ignorance.
Nonsense. What do people think when they see a swastika? Do they wonder about the direction of the rotation? Do they wonder about the multitude of meanings it had a thousand years ago?
It doesn't matter. A symbol means what people think it means. That is what makes it a symbol - that it means something to people. Intentional or not, this map is fail.
No it is not "fail".
Sniper Ridge is a very good BW map that allows very good BW games. Sure it is a fucking pain in the butt if you get lurker contained.
Man, getting lurker contained on Sniper Ridge is a test of nerves and faith. The most zen player will go apeshit bananas and atheists bend their knees in a pray for God's mercy.
On April 11 2013 06:31 Popkiller wrote: Everyone in this thread who supports the Blizzard decision should go search "Kyoto" in Google maps and proceed to write a letter to Google condemning them for using offensive imagery on their site.
I don't get it....i did it and i saw a map of the city of Kyoto? which is what I expected to see?
But in all seriousness guys blizzard has the right to do what they want you all agreed to it by hitting accept the Terms of use to play SC 2 and to create a battle.net.
This picture pretty much sums up the difference. Dont group different cultures/events together because they "look alike". That is racist and discriminating.
Wtf? Blizzard has swastika on theyr own maps... At least very similiar to swastika. Now theres only korhal city that reminds of it but there used to be a lot more.
I hope this has been helpful, and should you ever need help in future, feel free to make another ticket and I will do my best to be the one that replies
It's probably the default last sentence but it looks like he's trolling the guy. Lol.
god fucking damn it blizzard and its retarded GMs.
Also even if there ever was a map with a "real" nazi cross who would even care ? I mean seriously its not like the map would tell you to burn people or something...
On April 11 2013 06:31 Popkiller wrote: Everyone in this thread who supports the Blizzard decision should go search "Kyoto" in Google maps and proceed to write a letter to Google condemning them for using offensive imagery on their site.
I don't get it....i did it and i saw a map of the city of Kyoto? which is what I expected to see?
But in all seriousness guys blizzard has the right to do what they want you all agreed to it by hitting accept the Terms of use to play SC 2 and to create a battle.net.
japanese maps use the left facing swastika to denote temples in the city.
Hi, I'm actively part of the Starbow team and the guy who textured this map.
I personally asked that we should include a remake of Sniper Ridge for the Starbow map pool because it promotes positional play.
I agree that Blizzard is perfectly justified in removing the map for the sheer sake of political correctedness.
I am not happy at how they actually handled the situation though. This is a map played in proleague, still played by teamliquid.net BW TLS, and a large part of Starcraft history. This is blizzs own baby here as a port, not a drawing of a penis and then uploaded intended to be offensive.
Is a suspension really required here?
It is pretty obvious to see how the symbolism could be overlooked. Hell, I didn't even realize there was a swastika like symbol until my girlfriend pointed it out, this is after watching BW esports, the recent TLS, and playing plenty of matches on it.
Is blizz gleefully not aware that coincidence can occur?
so instead of educating the people in regards to swastika, they made them ignorant of its actual usage that dates back thousands of years and implement a negative image rather than dissipating the hatred symbol as just another symbol, is over valued enough to discriminate against asian culture.
dude this is hilarious, i feel so bad for Kahel or whatever his name is. I never expected a map to look like that though. I mean I used to play in BW, but ..ye..
Maintaining the ban of Kabelkorven for that is a little bit too much in my opinion. He had a no bad intentions doing that.
They should have hid the map only (as they can't remove files from battle.net) and should have contacted him via mail that that symbol is not ok to be used.
edit: oh, it wasn't a ban... well, 7 day suspension might be ok... but... well... I still feel 7 days is too much for that... I would have started with a delete + warning without suspension...
Does blizzard have the right to enforce political correctness in this fashion....sure I suppose it's their game.
Did they clearly A) miss the meaning off the facing of that symbol, and B) hand out a rather heavy handed punishment for a map played on for years...you bet they did.
I'd agree with the camp of educating people rather then being a bunch of ignorant baboons. Considering the facing of that symbol has so many different meanings in so many cultures.
If it was a Nazi style swastika I get the ban, but it's not. At the most they should of removed the map and given a warning if they don't want anything that even resembles it and don't mind insulting a lot of Asian cultures.
Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
On April 11 2013 06:52 jinorazi wrote: so instead of educating the people in regards to swastika, they made them ignorant of its actual usage that dates back thousands of years and implement a negative image rather than dissipating the hatred symbol as just another symbol, is over valued enough to discriminate against asian culture.
great german law.
I'm just gonna stop posting in this couple of threads now, but I have to add:
Anyone and everyone who supports the Blizzard GM in his decision is directly contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity, with regards to a topic that most people have an extremely shallow understanding of to begin with.
On April 11 2013 07:02 Sup3rior wrote: Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
Wanting to play a BW Pro League map in SC2 does not a nazi make. It's unfortunate.
But honestly with the high/low ground mechanics, the map is less interesting.
What is the point of reviewing bans on a case by case basis if this sort of action is considered 'appropriate action'? The whole point of a human being reviewing something is that they can (hopefully) exercise wise judgements instead of letting a rule do the thinking for them.
1. It's not even the swastika the Nazis used (assuming they banned in on the grounds that "Nazi symbol = inappropriate, therefore ban), it is a Manji. 2. There's more than enough circumstantial evidence (PL map precedence, no clear modifications from original, no demonstrable malicious intent other than uploading the map) to be able to see that there was absolutely no harm intended here.
I could understand if they forced you to post a disclaimer on the map information or blocked the map preview (both still wrong IMO, but comparatively "better"), but I firmly believe that the decision made here was clearly in the wrong.
Start a petition, if enough people complain they can't ignore it. I for one would definitely sign one.
On April 11 2013 07:02 Sup3rior wrote: Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
no, actually it is not. it is amazing that such a huge event occurred and people still arent educated about the issue though.
i am fine with the map being removed to prevent historically-illiterate people's delicate sensibilities, but banning the guy was completely unwarranted. not only was it a blizzard map to begin with, but it has also been played in professional matches.
I must admit the similarity to the swastika really is distracting and conjures images of Nazism up. There should not be a suspention but I understand why they don't want this map in Battle.net.
I'm sure there is a way to modify the map so that it still has the same basic layout but isn't so strikingly Nazi-ish.
On April 11 2013 07:06 fuzzylogic44 wrote: I must admit the similarity to the swastika really is distracting and conjures images of Nazism up. There should not be a suspention but I understand why they don't want this map in Battle.net.
I'm sure there is a way to modify the map so that it still has the same basic layout but isn't so strikingly Nazi-ish.
There is no reason. Whole "ban the crap out of them" logic may work on internet, but not in real life. We should not ban swastika, we should RIDICULE it. That is real way to fight Nazis. As long as we take them seriously, they will take themselves seriously as well. And that is exact oposite of what we want.
On April 11 2013 07:02 Sup3rior wrote: Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
no, actually it is not. it is amazing that such a huge event occurred and people still arent educated about the issue though.
i am fine with the map being removed to prevent historically-illiterate people's delicate sensibilities, but banning the guy was completely unwarranted. not only was it a blizzard map to begin with, but it has also been played in professional matches.
Sniper Ridge is not a Blizzard map, so how could you expect a modern community manager who has never watched BW to know that it exists? Even after being presented with evidence of the map's existence, they suspended the Kabel. That's going way fucking overboard.
On April 11 2013 07:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Anyone and everyone who supports the Blizzard GM in his decision is directly contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity, with regards to a topic that most people have an extremely shallow understanding of to begin with.
The response of Blizzard is pretty stupid as usual unfortunately. Ban a map that has been used in proleague for years.. sigh
Anyone and everyone who supports the Blizzard GM in his decision is directly contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity, with regards to a topic that most people have an extremely shallow understanding of to begin with.
On April 11 2013 07:02 Sup3rior wrote: Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
Wanting to play a BW Pro League map in SC2 does not a nazi make. It's unfortunate.
But honestly with the high/low ground mechanics, the map is less interesting.
Hmm, you have a good point.
The high ground mechanics of SC2 is total bullshit and would pretty much nullify any sort of interesting gameplay that could happen on Sniper Ridge.
While the sensitivity to the issue is okay, the decision to suspend his/her account defies justice. A swastika is a powerful symbol of a terrible past, but 70 years later and what is actually a manji should allow us to play a modded map on an internet game that tends to have fairly intelligent users. I get that the admin wants to cover himself and just make a decision, but come on now. If you find the image offensive -- which is beyond narrow minded at this point in history -- then don't play the map or watch the many replays of old BW games.
On April 11 2013 07:20 Mordanis wrote: The suspension was because of the name having racial/ethnic/national meaning? Was there some nazi training campt or something called sniper ridge?
There is a serie of maps in BW themed "Ridge":
Sniper Ridge
Heartbreak Ridge
Bloody Ridge
I think the "Sniper" part of Sniper Ridge comes from the fact that the ridges make it look like a sniper cross, not from Nazi references....
I can understand why Blizzard would want to remove this map, whether it's backwards doesn't matter so much. As for the ban, IMO it's Blizzard's way of reducing the "inappropriate" maps that they have to respond to. If they simply removed the map without consequence, there is no deterrent effect to reduce "inappropriate" maps from popping up constantly, thus the short ban. So, while it seems unfair to the mapmaker, it's not exactly a tragedy, and it's reasonable for Blizzard to respond in this way.
On April 11 2013 07:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Anyone and everyone who supports the Blizzard GM in his decision is directly contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity, with regards to a topic that most people have an extremely shallow understanding of to begin with.
Having said that, I wouldn't want to be accused of "contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity", whatever that bloviated bullshit is supposed to mean.
thats funny, a friend of mine has been playing SC2 with the ID "DarkFührer" daily since the day of release without a single warning or ban. He has been reported several times but the GMs have never done anything.
(no, hes not a nazi, he picked the name to troll people)
My problem with this isn't necessarily that a user got banned for having a swastika-like shape in a map, but the fact that they banned this guy with such swiftness, and yet they VERY rarely ban anyone for hacking
On April 11 2013 07:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Anyone and everyone who supports the Blizzard GM in his decision is directly contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity, with regards to a topic that most people have an extremely shallow understanding of to begin with.
This. It's absurd that a map used in proleague is banned. It's absurd that a map is banned for something it sort of resembles accidentally. It's absurd that a symbol which is used really commonly in the place where a huge percentage of Blizzard's playerbase lives is banned. It's ridiculous that someone who clearly uploaded with good intentions is banned instead of just the map being banned.
On April 11 2013 07:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Anyone and everyone who supports the Blizzard GM in his decision is directly contributing to the cultural and intellectual stagnation of humanity, with regards to a topic that most people have an extremely shallow understanding of to begin with.
Haha, like being in school hmm? Oh the irony. Nice to know you kept your sanity after all.
Blizzard's response seems perfectly reasonable. There's no need for maps resembling swastika's (even if they're flipped around) and someone got an insignificant 7 day ban for it because blizzard doesn't have hours to sort out every single report (these are the same guys as the WoW/Diablo GM's).
The SC2 version also looks much more like a swastika than the old BW one.
On April 11 2013 07:02 Sup3rior wrote: Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
Wanting to play a BW Pro League map in SC2 does not a nazi make. It's unfortunate.
But honestly with the high/low ground mechanics, the map is less interesting.
Hmm, you have a good point.
The high ground mechanics of SC2 is total bullshit and would pretty much nullify any sort of interesting gameplay that could happen on Sniper Ridge.
It was not for SC2. It was for his mod Starbow that has different highground mechanics.
Also, its pretty obvious that that image brings pictures of nazis and WW2 and all that stuff. But at the same time its a fact that that image is NOT the nazi swastika and has a whole different meaning. That and the fact it was used in proleague for years is why I think the correct decision by Blizz should have been to remove the map and not ban the maker (with explanation why it was removed).
On April 11 2013 07:02 Sup3rior wrote: Suprised at how many wannabe-nazis there are in this thread. It obviously looks like that symbol that is the symbol of millions of deaths and suffering in larger parts of the world. Can you really not survive with playing the hundreds of other bw-maps that exist and doesnt have theese kind of symbols in them.,
no, actually it is not. it is amazing that such a huge event occurred and people still arent educated about the issue though.
i am fine with the map being removed to prevent historically-illiterate people's delicate sensibilities, but banning the guy was completely unwarranted. not only was it a blizzard map to begin with, but it has also been played in professional matches.
Sniper Ridge is not a Blizzard map, so how could you expect a modern community manager who has never watched BW to know that it exists? Even after being presented with evidence of the map's existence, they suspended the Kabel. That's going way fucking overboard.
oh, i stand corrected. i thought the OP said it was a blizzard map, but its actually just a bw map.
On April 11 2013 07:31 The Stapler wrote: My problem with this isn't necessarily that a user got banned for having a swastika-like shape in a map, but the fact that they banned this guy with such swiftness, and yet they VERY rarely ban anyone for hacking
I guess they dont want to take any risks because that symbol is banned in several countries and any game using it will be removed from all sales. Maybe they just dont want to risk it. All it takes is a parent seeing the minimap, reporting it and then its up to interpretation if the whole game will be banned in for example germany.
One issue is that kespa has been making ports of bw maps for proleague. Are they gonna ban kespa officals who upload a version of this map for proleague?
All people supporting this ban should build themselves plastic buble and isolate themself from real world. There are terrible things out there. Forbiding things that symbolise them is just negation of their existence. Have you ever tried to tell your friend that he does not exist. Well, if you did, maybe you realised, he still exist, even after your claim. -.-
If I showed that map to anyone who's never played StarCarft (any version), 100% guaranteed the first thing they'll notice will be how much it looks like a swastika.
Given it's a remake of the original I'd say the ban is harsh and should be removed, but I wouldn't expect the guy who decided to ban to know what a BW map looked like and as such I agree with the ban in the first place given that they won't have known.
I actually think this is alright, just there are simple rules... just follow them. I mean looking at the map, i would say it not appropriate as it resembles swastika.
On April 11 2013 07:49 SgtCoDFish wrote: If I showed that map to anyone who's never played StarCarft (any version), 100% guaranteed the first thing they'll notice will be how much it looks like a swastika.
Given it's a remake of the original I'd say the ban is harsh and should be removed, but I wouldn't expect the guy who decided to ban to know what a BW map looked like and as such I agree with the ban in the first place given that they won't have known.
there is nothing wrong with seeing that as a swastika, the problem is everyone is associating it with nazi and ignoring/overlooking manja or symbol of old indian/budhist symbol that existed for thousands of years before hitler.
I don't really see the big problem or need for outrage. No it probably shouldn't be banned and probably wouldn't have been if it was discussed during a meeting with research into its background, but Blizzard has tons of maps uploaded and individual GMs do not take the time to research if "dong-o-topolis" really is a cultural reference and the penises on the map are accidental or deliberate, and they don't take an hour to ponder the ethical and societal implications of making dongs taboo in a 16+ game. They know that in 99% of cases the right decision is to block the map and impose a mild punishment on the uploader.
Even if you are lucky and hit a GM who watched professional BW and recognized the map they might still reasonably block it since it might offend a lot of ignorant users who stumble upon it and write angry e-mails at Blizzard. You would probably need someone higher up in Blizzard to make the decision to let a map through that contains prominent features that could be mistaken for Nazi symbolism. I'm sure that if KeSPA or MLG expressed a desire to have it available, then they could.
It's understandable why Blizzard suspended him. But it's going overboard to keep the suspension even when presented strong evidence of no malicious intent.
This is pretty dumb, but there are a lot of people pretty sensitive about this sort of stuff. Even a Japanese/Chinese character from a comic and such can get people all riled up about it, so you can't really do much about it.
For people who think it's reasonable to remove it because it 'resembles' something you don't like...How about you go travel abroad and tell the numerous cultures / countries to take down their symbols because they look Exactly the Same as the one on snipers ridge.
For that matter lets remove anything that offends or resembles something that offends people from everything. You get the idea here, by the time we get done there will be nothing. Lets make an example just in case you don't get the idea, something that hits home.
Vegans don't like meat and find eating animals repulsive. So lets remove all those soy meat like products from grocery stores so that the Vegans don't even have to see a meat like product on the shelf. Of course meat has to go too.
Nazi's were a hate group (still are largely), so not allowing that symbol makes sense. Removing anything similar to (see soy burger example) is taking political correctness way to far. Especially considering in our global world, many people use that exact same symbol in a ton of Asian cultures to mean good things.
TLDR: Being overly politically correct is really just as bad as being racist, sexiest, etc. etc. in my book.
In the Spirit of this thread, Here is a message i received from Blizz over 2 years ago. The comment I made was IN A PRIVATE PARTY CHAT WITH FRIENDS, not in game.
Greetings,
Account Name:Hidden Character Name:Hidden
A user of the above account has recently been involved in actions deemed inappropriate for StarCraft II by the In-Game Support staff of Blizzard Entertainment. This decision was made after a thorough investigation of the situation as a whole.
Though we are unable to discuss the outcomes of our investigations due to privacy concerns, rest assured that this incident has been looked into very thoroughly, and the appropriate actions have been taken on all involved accounts.
Any disputes or questions concerning the following account action can only be addressed by Account Administration. If you have any further enquiries regarding your account status, please use the web form at the following address: https://us.blizzard.com/support/webform.xml?locale=en_US.
Account Action:Education
Offense:Inappropriate This category includes both clear and masked language which: Is a mildly inappropriate reference to human anatomy or bodily functions Is otherwise considered objectionable
Details (Note - Times are listed in Greenwich Mean Time, GMT):
2011-12-21 08:27:52 Hidden#453 Player I LUV FUCKING HAWT CHOCOLAT
For further information, please view StarCraft II Policies and Terms of Use Agreement: (http://us.blizzard.com/support/article/SC2policies) and (http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/termsofuse.html). Please be aware that additional inappropriate actions may result in further disciplinary action, up to or including account closure.
We understand that these policies may seem harsh, but they are in place to ensure that every player is able to fully enjoy their time in StarCraft II. Thank you in advance for respecting our position.
On April 11 2013 07:53 WigglingSquid wrote: Perhaps you could try playing around with the tileset to alter the colors so that the svastika-lookalike is not as prominent.
Given that Blizzard wrote "Further violations will result in harsher suspensions or permanent closure." I would be careful about trying to pass through what would seem like a camouflaged swastika. Blizzard are not exactly known for the leniency when it comes to stuff like this, and I don't think I have ever heard of them undoing a ban/suspension. In any case the situation is frankly a bit silly.
Sorry, but reverse or not it looks an awful lot like a swastika, something which simply doesnt "need" to be in the game. I could go on the "ra ra ra but it meant something else 200 years ago" , but the fact is that here and now it is a symbol associated with the nazi party and the atrocities they commited (Though eventually it will hopefully go back to its old symbolic meaning). im not offended by it, but my grandma would be.
Also it seems likely that a user reported the map and the CS guy just acted on the report & what he's seen, it makes alot more sense for blizzard to remove potentially offensive content & ban the user than it is to refuse to take action and instead end up int he papers as a company that "condones this type of stuff"
7 days does seem harsh, but if you arent harsh then people will just try and abuse that.
PS Passive aggressive OP ftw.
Edit - EU Customer service- does it not make sense for him to interpret it in a way relevant to european and not old asian culture?
On April 11 2013 07:49 SgtCoDFish wrote: If I showed that map to anyone who's never played StarCarft (any version), 100% guaranteed the first thing they'll notice will be how much it looks like a swastika.
Given it's a remake of the original I'd say the ban is harsh and should be removed, but I wouldn't expect the guy who decided to ban to know what a BW map looked like and as such I agree with the ban in the first place given that they won't have known.
there is nothing wrong with seeing that as a swastika, the problem is everyone is associating it with nazi and ignoring/overlooking manja or symbol of old indian/budhist symbol that existed for thousands of years before hitler.
And there's nothing wrong with calling someone a "faggot", because it means a bundle of sticks! And there's nothing with with "fag" either, that means cigarette!
And "queer" means strange! "Gay" means happy! "Wicked" means evil!
Things change in meaning. When the Nazi party used the swastika as its symbol, the meaning changed.
On April 11 2013 07:53 WigglingSquid wrote: Perhaps you could try playing around with the tileset to alter the colors so that the svastika-lookalike is not as prominent.
Given that Blizzard wrote "Further violations will result in harsher suspensions or permanent closure." I would be careful about trying to pass through what would seem like a camouflaged swastika. Blizzard are not exactly known for the leniency when it comes to stuff like this, and I don't think I have ever heard of them undoing a ban/suspension. In any case the situation is frankly a bit silly.
Well, of course he should contact Blizzard first. They already know that his intentions are not to play around with nazi iconography, as they confirmed that he was merely replicating the original map, so it would be reasonable to expect them to collaborate. Of course, being reasonable might be outside the realm of Blizzard policy.
On April 11 2013 07:56 ma5ta wrote: In the Spirit of this thread, Here is a message i received from Blizz over 2 years ago. The comment I made was IN A PRIVATE PARTY CHAT WITH FRIENDS, not in game.
Greetings,
Account Name:Hidden Character Name:Hidden
A user of the above account has recently been involved in actions deemed inappropriate for StarCraft II by the In-Game Support staff of Blizzard Entertainment. This decision was made after a thorough investigation of the situation as a whole.
Though we are unable to discuss the outcomes of our investigations due to privacy concerns, rest assured that this incident has been looked into very thoroughly, and the appropriate actions have been taken on all involved accounts.
Any disputes or questions concerning the following account action can only be addressed by Account Administration. If you have any further enquiries regarding your account status, please use the web form at the following address: https://us.blizzard.com/support/webform.xml?locale=en_US.
Account Action:Education
Offense:Inappropriate This category includes both clear and masked language which: Is a mildly inappropriate reference to human anatomy or bodily functions Is otherwise considered objectionable
Details (Note - Times are listed in Greenwich Mean Time, GMT):
2011-12-21 08:27:52 Hidden#453 Player I LUV FUCKING HAWT CHOCOLAT
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We understand that these policies may seem harsh, but they are in place to ensure that every player is able to fully enjoy their time in StarCraft II. Thank you in advance for respecting our position.
lol @ hawt chocolat. i got banned for using masked profanity (i.e., #$#% #$#$) on a battle.net thread about how people should sue blizzard in a class action related to diablo 3.
On April 11 2013 07:55 Nerski wrote: For people who think it's reasonable to remove it because it 'resembles' something you don't like...How about you go travel abroad and tell the numerous cultures / countries to take down their symbols because they look Exactly the Same as the one on snipers ridge.
For that matter lets remove anything that offends or resembles something that offends people from everything. You get the idea here, by the time we get done there will be nothing. Lets make an example just in case you don't get the idea, something that hits home.
Vegans don't like meat and find eating animals repulsive. So lets remove all those soy meat like products from grocery stores so that the Vegans don't even have to see a meat like product on the shelf. Of course meat has to go too.
Nazi's were a hate group (still are largely), so not allowing that symbol makes sense. Removing anything similar to (see soy burger example) is taking political correctness way to far. Especially considering in our global world, many people use that exact same symbol in a ton of Asian cultures to mean good things.
TLDR: Being overly politically correct is really just as bad as being racist, sexiest, etc. etc. in my book.
I'm not defending blizzard here, but I have to register my strong disagreement with your final statement. "Political correctness" is all about trying to NOT offend/hurt other people. Racism and sexism in many cases are used to do just that. I'm not sure how anyone can honestly equivocate the two, except out of ignorance brought on by privilege.
Your Vegan analogy is also quite poor. Vegans don't eat meat exclusively because they find animals repulsive, in many cases it's because they think eating meat is immoral, so it's not really analogous to this case.
Should Blizz allow a map to be on bnet if it looks like a swastika? Probably not. As much as it sucks, the swastika can be an incredibly offensive symbol. I'm pretty sure the opportunities such a map allows for anti-semitism and racism outweighs any marginal benefit there is in it being on bnet.
That said, blizz should obviously not ban this guy on sight. More than likely no one has really evaluated this case, they're just going by the book, which really doesn't work well in this specific case.
I'm with Blizzard on this one. This is something too controversial from either perspective and not even considered good for "bad publicity" by the populace. Blizzard doesn't need this kind of publicity for their games/brand. The original map should have been banned too.
On April 11 2013 08:08 Starp wrote: I'm with Blizzard on this one. This is something too controversial from either perspective and not even considered good for "bad publicity" by the populace. Blizzard doesn't need this kind of publicity for their games/brand. The original map should have been banned too.
Do you agree with the 7 day ban for the user? I'm just curious as to how that would be justified
Mah... I'm not offended by the map but I certainly understand why Blizzard would rather not have the map. It's much easier to remove it than dealing with all the complains and worse.
That just shows that the account/Battle.net management teams are almost a completely separate entity from the actual Blizzard staff.
Anyone in their right mind would see the old map, and realize there was a mistake. Instead, they're like "you're right...but we're still not going to do shit."
Really blizzard really? I played on the map with my gf the other day and really enjoyed star bow with some bw nostalgia. How up tight can you be? It's been almost 70 years and the symbol is way way older than ww2. I find their ignorant quick responds even worse, wtf is wrong with them these days? Videogames have become so fucking ridiculous. You get banned for everything, I feel like developers treat every user like he is a 6 year old who gets deeply hurt by every insult and can't deal with hearing swear words, or in this case seeing something that reminds of a symbol used by nazis. And on top of that they couldn't care less about starbow being a huge mod in our community, but oh well they didn't know about sc2bw either, guess they just enjoy being ignorant...
Can someone please finally come up with a private battle.net server so we can stop dealing with blizzards bullshit?
In my history dealing with Blizz support (mainly D3, unfortunately), the head GM, who usually are the mods active on forum, are really nice to deal wit hand will get things solved, but majority of them (and some most likely are outsourced) seem to unable read plain explanation or follow simple instructions. They do nothing but give you the run-around, might as well talk to a phone book.
Removing the map is okay, since it does look like a swastika. Sorry, but the first thing that comes into mind when seeing this is "oh, hitler used that", everyone stating different things is either blind or does not want to see. But, punishing the mapmaker for basically copying it, is just wrong. I lol at blizzard, once more.
On April 11 2013 08:02 SgtCoDFish wrote: Things change in meaning. When the Nazi party used the swastika as its symbol, the meaning changed.
Only if you're so dedicated to creating an atmosphere of fear and cognitive dissonance that you immediately jump to the 'nazi' meaning and focus solely on it.
It's a popular Brood War map, for fuck's sake. Are the leagues and players using it all Nazis? Had they even stopped grinding games to consider that they might seem like it? No, because that's fucking stupid. This is the kind of thing that only happens in the west, where we 'make jobs' by paying idiots minimum wage to ban nerds from games and forums.
On April 11 2013 08:20 boxerfred wrote: Removing the map is okay, since it does look like a swastika. Sorry, but the first thing that comes into mind when seeing this is "oh, hitler used that", everyone stating different things is either blind or does not want to see.
What if I make a map with the confederate flag in it? Or the American flag? Or the jolly roger? All of these things offend different people from different eras. Does that mean we should give a fuck about a custom map in Starcraft?
It's not like the map renames the marine to 'Stormtrooper' or some shit. Although this game is about different alien races destroying each other in scenes reminiscent of the holocaust (except with worse writing)...but I digress.
Most courts throughout the world (in areas that aren't beyond hope) wouldn't stand behind a decision like this, but because it's a video game map the people making the decision are basically worthless.
I see why the map got pulled down, I'm not sure if i agree with the 7 day ban (could have at least asked wtf the guy was thinking and give him a chance to explain himself first, and it would all be cleared up) but the map kind of has to go. You might argue that the blizzard stuff shows some amount of narrow mind or something, but in this case they kind of have to. People who see this map can and will get offended about this, so they kind of have to act on it.
And... for everyone who says "man this isn't even the nazi symbol, it faces in the wrong direction" - this might be true, but you really have to keep in mind that that might just have been an oversight by the mapmaker... people who genuinly believe that the spreading of the swastika is a good thing are stupid enough to produce stuff like this:
I'm sure _just_ getting them backwards would be considered a "stroke of luck" to those kinds of people
So why does TeamLiquid use nazi maps in 2013???? Should have known that's a nazi symbol, right? I think it's time to email sponsors (blizzard) to demand the removal of TL players from WCS.
Well. It has always been said that our moderators are a bunch of Nazis so it all kinda lines up...
Ban is dumb. They could take down the map I guess because Western cultural associations Wins. Also screw BW, forget the past, yada, yada, yada. But there should have been no ban if they had investigated after the appeal.
Blizzard as of late has gone over board when it comes to defending the sensitivity of jews. Any clan or group name containing the word "jewish" is automatically flagged and you can't even use the clan tag JIDF either. It's ridiculous that such a tiny minority, who don't currently even have their own sc2 client, get such preferential treatment.
On April 11 2013 08:34 HowdySC2 wrote: Blizzard as of late has gone over board when it comes to defending the sensitivity of jews. Any clan or group name containing the word "jewish" is automatically flagged and you can't even use the clan tag JIDF either. It's ridiculous that such a tiny minority, who don't currently even have their own sc2 client, get such preferential treatment.
The high ground portion should be RE-shaped to represent a different offensive symbol, like the confederate flag, or something like a pentagram and see what the repercussions are...I bet they don't remove the map or ban the maker.
Shit...just make a brand new map, with ONLY that symbol on it..and name it Sniper Ridge...bet they won't ban it.
I think at the end of the day, the map maker being based in Europe is a significant factor in the ban.
For people referring to Blizzard being ignorant about different world religions, I would say since the map maker resides in Europe he should be keenly aware of the connotations of using a symbol that resembles a Nazi swastika. This would also apply in NA. If someone published it in the SEA or KR server, I can understand it being an honest mistake but the largest difference is that the map maker being based in EU should know better.
On April 11 2013 08:34 HowdySC2 wrote: Blizzard as of late has gone over board when it comes to defending the sensitivity of jews. Any clan or group name containing the word "jewish" is automatically flagged and you can't even use the clan tag JIDF either. It's ridiculous that such a tiny minority, who don't currently even have their own sc2 client, get such preferential treatment.
there is nothing wrong with taking extra precautions when there is a good chance of offending a group of individuals--especially where their act (i.e., removing the map) causes no real burden on anybody. yeah, it sucks that the map was banned, but its not like its necessary to have the map or that minor revisions to the map can be implemented to address the issue.
i also shouldnt have to point out the obvious that protecting minority groups is why there are so many anti-discrimination laws. plus, these rules arent restricted to jewish people, they apply to other minority groups as well.
the decision to ban the guy is completely separate in my mind. i dont feel the ban was justified in the least.
i also dont think anybody should be offended by this map's attenuated similarity to the nazi swastika.
funny that this guy gets banned for uploading an old map thats been a mainstay of BW but that they cant fucking ban the guys who openly admit maphacking.
I bet I could queue a 100 games in a row and go balls out on the racist/nazi BM and wont get suspended.
But this evil character uploaded Snipers Ridge on bnet and has to be punished...
makes perfect sense.
sry for you dude. Imo you should try and go over this guy's head. Have you tried calling customer service and play the part of the mightily pissed customer?
On April 11 2013 09:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: funny that this guy gets banned for uploading an old map thats been a mainstay of BW but that they cant fucking ban the guys who openly admit maphacking.
I bet I could queue a 100 games in a row and go balls out on the racist/nazi BM and wont get suspended.
But this evil character uploaded Snipers Ridge on bnet and has to be punished...
makes perfect sense.
sry for you dude. Imo you should try and go over this guy's head. Have you tried calling customer service and play the part of the mightily pissed customer?
Welcome to SC2 ladder: Where the BM is real and the rules don't matter.
Blizzard is really bad about bans over dumb shit and absolutely hates reversing them for any reason.
On April 11 2013 08:02 SgtCoDFish wrote: Things change in meaning. When the Nazi party used the swastika as its symbol, the meaning changed.
Only if you're so dedicated to creating an atmosphere of fear and cognitive dissonance that you immediately jump to the 'nazi' meaning and focus solely on it.
It's a popular Brood War map, for fuck's sake. Are the leagues and players using it all Nazis? Had they even stopped grinding games to consider that they might seem like it? No, because that's fucking stupid. This is the kind of thing that only happens in the west, where we 'make jobs' by paying idiots minimum wage to ban nerds from games and forums.
On April 11 2013 08:20 boxerfred wrote: Removing the map is okay, since it does look like a swastika. Sorry, but the first thing that comes into mind when seeing this is "oh, hitler used that", everyone stating different things is either blind or does not want to see.
What if I make a map with the confederate flag in it? Or the American flag? Or the jolly roger? All of these things offend different people from different eras. Does that mean we should give a fuck about a custom map in Starcraft?
It's not like the map renames the marine to 'Stormtrooper' or some shit. Although this game is about different alien races destroying each other in scenes reminiscent of the holocaust (except with worse writing)...but I digress.
Most courts throughout the world (in areas that aren't beyond hope) wouldn't stand behind a decision like this, but because it's a video game map the people making the decision are basically worthless.
What? Courts rule on what's legal. Every American would uphold Blizzard's right to do this because of the ToS.
And if you think a swastika is one the same level of offensiveness as the jolly roger, go take history again and (I can't believe I'm honestly going to say this, wtf) check your privilege.
On April 11 2013 08:34 HowdySC2 wrote: Blizzard as of late has gone over board when it comes to defending the sensitivity of jews. Any clan or group name containing the word "jewish" is automatically flagged and you can't even use the clan tag JIDF either. It's ridiculous that such a tiny minority, who don't currently even have their own sc2 client, get such preferential treatment.
On April 11 2013 04:35 ZappaSC wrote: I honestly think this is alright. To the people who say that the swastika meant something else and so fourth: It does not matter. Now it is associated with the nazi party, and it will continue to be so.
The map looks like a huge swastika, BW or not, its not appropriate IMHO.
EDIT: alright to ban i mean, its only 7 days man.
It won't stop being associated the Nazi party unless we stop interpreting it that way.
Also, they left a smiley face at the end? That's unprofessional, coupled with how they pretty much said "we won't explain why, but you're wrong, so don't send us anymore messages," really Blizzard?
On April 11 2013 09:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: funny that this guy gets banned for uploading an old map thats been a mainstay of BW but that they cant fucking ban the guys who openly admit maphacking.
I bet I could queue a 100 games in a row and go balls out on the racist/nazi BM and wont get suspended.
But this evil character uploaded Snipers Ridge on bnet and has to be punished...
makes perfect sense.
sry for you dude. Imo you should try and go over this guy's head. Have you tried calling customer service and play the part of the mightily pissed customer?
Some poor customer service rep is not going to be able to do anything and does not need to be bothered with this. Talking to someone like Dustin Browder is the only way I would think that anything could be changed.
I thought this would be an amusing thread where we all have a laugh at a silly situation and then let it die off, but for some reason that hasn't happened. This isn't going places and now it's taking an ugly turn so I'll just put it down here.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4BbZve3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1UpLVM1.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/3/3c/Sniper_Ridge.jpg/120px-Sniper_Ridge.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_the_NSDAP_%281920%E2%80%931945%29.svg/150px-Flag_of_the_NSDAP_%281920%E2%80%931945%29.svg.png)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/RedSwastikaSchool.jpg/220px-RedSwastikaSchool.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/HinduSwastika.svg)
![[image loading]](http://www.comedycentral.com/images/shows/crankyankers/characters/cy_specialed_m4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4071/4525274963_b7d8ea6e7c_z.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.foreigners-in-china.com/images/buddhist-religious-symbols-swastika-on-statue.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/3/3c/Sniper_Ridge.jpg/400px-Sniper_Ridge.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/9/96/199_Heartbreak_Ridge.jpg/400px-199_Heartbreak_Ridge.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/3/39/Bloody_Ridge.jpg/400px-Bloody_Ridge.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://funtimeshad.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/rj96A1.jpg)
