|
As I was watching MLG last weekend I started wondering about the arbiters and referees at these big e-sports tournaments. I'd be interested to learn a little bit more about them.
For example, who decides what happens when one of the computers crashes during an MLG match. Or - as happened last weekend - what happens when you restart a game from a replay and by some glitch one of the players suddenly is in OBS mode and sees everything? Who makes these decisions? Is it a committee or a single arbiter? And are the rules written down somewhere?
I'm asking because here on TL I'm blogging about teaching chess to an SC2 grandmaster, and in the chess world there is a very famous monthly column written by Geurt Gijssen, one of the most experienced and famous chess arbiters in which he discusses disputes at tournaments, unclear and ambiguous rules, and arbiters' decisions at recent tournaments.
This is an example:
http://www.chesscafe.com/geurt/geurt177.htm
I'd like to see something like this about SC2 tournaments as well. I've been looking for interviews, blog posts etc. by e-sports arbiters but couldn't really find anything. Do they exist or is this a neglected part of e-sports?
EDIT: Please move to Starcraft 2 section!
|
I hope I'm not the only one who immediately thought of another arbiter.
|
Yeah my mind immediately jumped to the Arbiter unit as well.
|
On March 22 2013 07:06 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
I hope I'm not the only one who immediately thought of another arbiter.
Yes, for clarification, I'm not talking about this kind of arbiter ;-)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IEmHMcE.gif)
EDIT: And I just realized this should have been posted in the SC2 section. Sorry! Someone please move it there!
|
my first thought was what sort of problem could referees have with arbiters? they are just a unit!
|
yeah i think the problem with sc2 matches is that they dont have arbiters. maybe with LOTV....
|
From a completely competitive standpoint... If the person was going to win the game initially, then they should be able to repeat that, else they aren't as good. Except in SC2, where randomness and "meta-gaming" your opponent is the standard.
A referee should rarely be necessary for these scenarios. In fact... Get ready for this guys. Here it goes!
+ Show Spoiler +THERE SHOULD NEVER NEED TO BE REMATCHES DUE TO DISCONNECTS BECAUSE OF LAN. WHY IS THERE NO LAN?
But, I'm sure MLG has some admin people to "decide" what is to be done. That MLG match where MC became obs (how did that even happen? Was that due to the casters or just HotS fucking up?), the logical course of action would be to replay the game. Becoming obs is pretty fucking significant. Even if he only saw the minimap, that could definitely give him a guaranteed game from there. MC was already far ahead, but any chances MVP had probably disappeared with the mess-up. Of course, they train together and stuff now, don't they? And MVP seemed pretty light-hearted after the series with him, so I doubt it was a big deal to anyone. MVP knew he was far behind and little chance of winning.
I personally would like to see some actually intelligent people decide, though. Like a pro-gamer who has reliable knowledge of the game to make the "decision". Would that ever happen? I doubt it.
|
I think this is a genuinely good question, I am also interested in seeing if anyone comes up with anything, or maybe a representative from MLG could pop in here and give this the once over?
|
I think this is the type of referee that the less you hear about means the better they are.
I mean, in Sc2 a referee doesnt have to hand out a yellow card for a bad tackle or 2 minutes in the box for cross checking...
what they officiate is pretty much set in stone in terms of rules/ what can happen during a game.
Only things they gotta watch for is cheating ( I misinterrrprreted the rrrrules ) and technical issues?? ( might be more )
I dont mean to diminish their role but I think that officiating sc2 matches is much easier than most ''real life'' sports solely by the amount of judgement calls needed to referee a sc2 match vs a football match ( like regular football or 4 downs football with shiny helmets)
So no I dont really wish I heard about them more than I do now. Hell I'd be more interested in hearing how does a chess ref can interact/affect a chess match :3
but yeah these sc2 refs have some of the best nerd jobs around when you consider it!
|
They have the power to stasis entire battlefields with the pause function, and, if deserved, they can make any player disappear. If necessary, they can reca.. er call in other staff to deal with problems players have that are beyond the Arbiter's expertise, such as a technical issue. Arbiter's must also be tolerant and professional during disputes, so they tend not to bite hard when provoked.
They're also paid entirely in bean burritos, so they tend to be gas heavy.
|
ya'll know, theres that sad memory that you lived without for sometime, then someway it is reminded to you and forces a small tear from your eyes...
|
On March 22 2013 07:06 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
I hope I'm not the only one who immediately thought of another arbiter.
nope. =(
most of the tourneys have rules. start there if you want to learn how they make decisions.
|
MLG has refs, the refs have a boss of sorts if they can't make a decision on what to do about something. If the player has a problem with what a single ref decides they can appeal to the guy in charge of the refs. Or at least this is largely how the open bracket was run. As far as the streamed matches are concerned I'm not 100% certain who has the final call. What I can say is guys like Sundance, Lee, Adam, etc. are not usually ever that far away where they can't weigh in if it matters.
Worth throwing in I suppose every tournament has rules and generally speaking it's fairly clear cut what to do in most situations.
|
Katowice25012 Posts
MLG/IEM/IPL all have referees that, from what I can tell from skimming this chess article, do the same job using the same procedures. Each tournament has a strict rule book (most are public, IEM's gets released on their website somewhere at the start of each season though I forget if MLG's is) and it is the job of those overseeing the tournament to ensure that those rules are followed for cases such as drops, lag, computer problems, and for situations such as tiebreaks (which occasionally causes controversy - the IEM admins once used a different system than was in their official rule book and it caused some confusion).
The simple answer here is "yes it's the same" but procedurally it is decided on a tournament by tournament basis. TSL for example has single refs in each match and any larger or more difficult decisions go to a committee of people running the tournament, this is a fairly common model. During TSL3 we assembled a panel of professional players to judge a drop situation as per the rule set of the tournament. Overall the process is considerably less intense and more straight forward than something like chess because the players don't need to negotiate very much in terms of gameplay - the game itself is the mediator of nearly all rules and it's completely automatic - so something such a a monthly column wouldn't even be possible here.
A good tournament should have an extensive and clear rule book that details what is to happen in all kinds of strange scenarios (such as one player being able to see all units in a restarted game due to an error) so that decision aren't made on the fly but rather follow criteria set up beforehand.
|
Everyone has their rules. Those are held above all other things. Rules should be made and set in a way that they can describe any issue at any time and address them properly. Sometimes unforseen things occur and usually in e-sports or large tournaments if an administrator/referee cannot make a decision based upon the ruleset, he/she will go to his/her superiors and get a ruling from the appropriate ruling party.
|
Am I the only one that's disappointed that MLG never has had to use the "Your opponent picks a unit, you can't build this unit for the next game." penalty?
|
On March 22 2013 09:11 Blargh wrote:From a completely competitive standpoint... If the person was going to win the game initially, then they should be able to repeat that, else they aren't as good. Except in SC2, where randomness and "meta-gaming" your opponent is the standard. A referee should rarely be necessary for these scenarios. In fact... Get ready for this guys. Here it goes! + Show Spoiler +THERE SHOULD NEVER NEED TO BE REMATCHES DUE TO DISCONNECTS BECAUSE OF LAN. WHY IS THERE NO LAN? But, I'm sure MLG has some admin people to "decide" what is to be done. That MLG match where MC became obs (how did that even happen? Was that due to the casters or just HotS fucking up?), the logical course of action would be to replay the game. Becoming obs is pretty fucking significant. Even if he only saw the minimap, that could definitely give him a guaranteed game from there. MC was already far ahead, but any chances MVP had probably disappeared with the mess-up. Of course, they train together and stuff now, don't they? And MVP seemed pretty light-hearted after the series with him, so I doubt it was a big deal to anyone. MVP knew he was far behind and little chance of winning. I personally would like to see some actually intelligent people decide, though. Like a pro-gamer who has reliable knowledge of the game to make the "decision". Would that ever happen? I doubt it.
There are so many things wrong with this post.
First of all, there are many games/sports where randomness and meta-gaming plays a huge role, if you think SC2 is somehow an exception, I don't know what to say.
Second, yeah, disconnects are the only reasons games get stopped right? Not mouse, keyboard, PC issues...
Third, people can have knowledge of the game without being a pro gamer. Why do you think other people aren't ;intelligent? Having pro gamers do it brings a lot of conflict of interest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
