As we head in to the new year, we’ll be gearing up for a fresh season of Wings of Liberty ladder play. Along with the new season, you’ll find two new maps to explore and conquer for both the 1v1 and 3v3 formats.
The 1v1 Ladder Map Pool
The Heart of the Swarm beta has given us the chance to test quite a few new ladder maps, and we thought it would be exciting to bring a couple of them to Wings of Liberty. After reviewing all of the current Heart of the Swarm ladder maps, we narrowed the list down to the two maps we felt would best transition to Wings of Liberty gameplay. To make room for these maps, we plan to remove Shakuras Plateau and Tal’darim Altar LE from the 1v1 ladder pool.
(2) Akilon Flats
Akilon Flats features a fairly standard main and natural expansion. One of this map’s more interesting features is that you can choose from two different locations for your third expansion. Unlike Akilon Wastes in Heart of the Swarm, however, there will be no collapsible rock towers at the choke points leading to possible third base locations. This means the map will play slightly less defensive in Wings of Liberty than it does in Swarm beta.
(2) Newkirk District
Newkirk District is a symmetrical map that has a fairly straight forward flow for taking expansions and is relatively easy to split in half for the late game. We’re seeing this map has even win ratios across all levels of play in the Heart of the Swarm beta so far, and we’re interested to see how these ratios will look in Wings of Liberty.
The 3v3 Ladder Map Pool
In keeping with our goal of providing a variety of map styles within the team ladder pool, we created two new 3v3 maps that will play very differently from each other. In order to bring in these maps in, we will be rotating Monsoon and Ulaan Deeps out of the 3v3 ladder pool.
(6) Backwater Complex
This is a fairly standard fortress map that emphasizes macro play. Each team starts off in their own fortress, with additional expansion locations that you and your allies can work together to defend.
(6) Twisted Vern
The distance between starting bases on Twisted Vern is shorter than most of the team maps in the current ladder pool. This means that teamwork will be vital in order to hold off rush plays made by your opponents. In addition, the main choke point leading into your starting base is fairly small for a 3v3 map, which will make defending together vs. rushing the opposing team an interesting decision. Expansion locations are placed along the edges of the map, which will cause the flow of the game to evolve heading in to the mid and late stages of play.
All four maps have already been published to the custom games list in order to give you a chance to check them out before the season roll. We'll be watching these changes closely and reading your feedback, so let us know what you think in the comment section below.
Season 5 on the 2012 ladder is drawing to a close, and that means that all ladders will be locked soon.
Here’s what this means for you:
During the 2012 Season 5 lock, you can’t be promoted or demoted from of your current league or division, and your bonus pool stops growing.
Though you’ll be locked to a league and division, you'll still be able to play out your remaining bonus pool and compete for standing within your division until the end of the season.
If you're pursuing a league promotion, then you still have a chance to get there. The 2012 Season 5 lock will go into effect on Wednesday, December 26 at 11:59 p.m. PST / Thursday, December 27 at 8:59 a.m. CET.
The hidden ratings used to determine promotions and demotions will continue to be used for matchmaking purposes, and will continue to update during the 2012 Season 5 lock. So if you play significantly better or worse than your assigned league at the time of the lock, you may find yourself in a different league when 2013 Season 1 begins (after you play your first placement match). Your games during the lock still count.
The 2012 Season 5 lock also means that 2013 Season 1 is right around the corner. At 12:01 a.m. PST on Thursday, January 3, 2013 / 9:01 a.m. CET on Thursday, January 3, 2013 Season 1 will begin. Season milestone rewards will be locked in at this time, and bonus pools will reset. The game will continue doing matchmaking and league placement using results from the previous season.
These maps are meh 2bh, when I saw this thread I was hoping for the GSL maps but nevermind. And blizz had to pick the only hots map where I have a winrate below 50% haha
I like these maps in the beta, but will veto both of them. Without the mothership core I'm completely uncomfortable with naturals that are far from the main ramp if the natural choke is so wide.
I don't understand their stubbornness with creating their on maps, obviously GSL and Kespa have some really talented map makers, so does the community. Why not implement all of those maps instead of these kind of less than average maps.
It is freaking amazing how Blizzard maps feel so wrong. They give me this suffocating feel, I don't quite can put on words what I mean. Maybe it is the 3d, or things in SC2 look toy-ish, cartoony, I don't know.... I mean, compare it to BW maps, they feel large, they look large and they somehow look more like a broad landscape in some planet:
why the hell do they add the shittiest maps! i really dislike Newkirk District because of the two xel naga towers that cover pretty much everything and then on top of that also has a pretty short attack patch with so few places to flank an army.. feels as we are going backwards with the map pool.
When I read the title, I assumed I would be happy. Both 1v1 maps suck in my opinion. Why remove shakuras? Condemned should be removed because that map is barely ever used -_-
Am I the only one who'd like to see the vast majority of the current mappool replaced? Always watching the same games on the same maps is becoming incredibly stale...
These are among the better Hots maps, but they're not on the level that they're going to be used in tournaments. So just a massive waste of time and ressources.
I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
i really dont think the success/failure of sc2 is based on the quality of 1v1 maps, its obviously not good, but the success/continued success is based on other things, though this isnt the thread to discuss that
EDIT: i guess my post doesnt have any content, just saying i disagree, basically i think the arcade is FAR more important and 2v2/3v3/4v4 are more important too. we have had bad maps in 1v1 ladder forever, its annoying but not all that bad, pro players practice on proper maps and only really use ladder for streaming, theres enough good maps that you can veto out the bad ones. these maps are better than close spawn antiga or entombed.
EDIT2: i hear shak and tda are gone? the map pool is better than it was last season.
I don't understand why it's so hard to grow a game in a positive manner. But when you try to do everything in your power to just stump its growth it's kinda hard to move forward...
I really don't understand why blizzard is so stubborn when it comes to implementing anything other than their own maps. It's actually just illogical for everyone, including themselves. The argument they present, at least to my knowledge, is not everyone wants to play "x" game due to "x" map is pretty irrelevant because if you look at all the "good" tournament maps they offer a huge variety of ways to be played. Just seems like blizzard stomps their foot and says: "Well, you're right but I don't care!" Like a little kid... T_T;;
I just want ladder to be productive practice.. shouldn't be too much to ask I feel..
P.S: I think it would be a good idea if you have discontent with this post (As I feel many people do) to go ahead and tweet at dustin browder as he now has a twitter and let him know to respectfully check this thread. Obviously, keep things civil and don't spam. When you bring things like this to their attention, and in a proper manner, it is quite hard for them to say they didn't see it. I don't see the maps getting changed any other way.
Don't really know what to think about the new maps. Hopefully the new ones will work out for the better. I am so glad that Shakuras is getting dumped out of the ladder pool, I really disliked that map.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
i really dont think the success/failure of sc2 is based on the quality of 1v1 maps, its obviously not good, but the success/continued success is based on other things, though this isnt the thread to discuss that
I dont think the success of SC2 depends on the ladder mappool only, but I can say for myself, that I stopped playing SC because of the maps. And I dont think I am the only one. Watching Proleague/GSL feels so nice because the maps make for interesting games. And then you cannot play the game the same way on ladder because the maps suck :/ I really lost a lot of interest in SCII over the last months but when I watched the first proleague games, it felt a little like watching BW a long time ago. Its hard to explain but I feel that on these maps, you rather "see" the players skills and their gameplans, while the laddermaps are just boring.
Ofc, this is only my feeling while watching/playing the game but imo it has a lot to do with the maps.
Akilon is alright, but newkirk is just a bigger shakuras. IMO this is blizzard trying to get more feedback on the two maps before HotS rather than them earnestly attempting to improve the map pool.
On December 20 2012 08:34 Monochromatic wrote: At least the map pool is different, but losing Shakuras instead of condemned ridge is quite disappointed.
yup ... weird choice... The logic behind that is probably that the "old" maps have to be cycled to make things interesting, but on the other hand Korhal Compound got removed pretty fast (did Blizzard mention why? Just checked the news for Ladder Maps in season 6 & 7 but it just mentions KC being included, not being removed :O)
On December 20 2012 08:33 geokilla wrote: Where is Abyssal City? Where is Whirlwind? Blizzard you fail.
Abyssal City and Whirlwind would both be ENORMOUS flops on ladder. Blizzard was absolutely correct to keep them out of the map pool.
I'm glad new maps are coming in but I wish they would have shaken out more of the old maps, but oh well, as long as we can start getting a 2 map rotation EVERY season that'll be good, Having maps in the pool for over 2 years like TDA and Shakuras is just WAY too long.
On December 20 2012 08:34 Monochromatic wrote: At least the map pool is different, but losing Shakuras instead of condemned ridge is quite disappointed.
yup ... weird choice... The logic behind that is probably that the "old" maps have to be cycled to make things interesting, but on the other hand Korhal Compound got removed pretty fast (did Blizzard mention why? Just checked the news for Ladder Maps in season 6 & 7 but it just mentions KC being included, not being removed :O)
They said they ditched it cause tournaments weren't using it.
omfg how ignorant can one company prove themselves to be time and time again concerning the basic desires of their community. Blizzard is utterly incapable of making any sort of map that makes even a basic amount of sense. If they insist on buying into the fiction that casual players prefer their stilted, tiny, senseless maps (an assertion entirely lacking in actual evidence which they nonetheless assert time and time again) then at least allow more competitive players the OPTION of playing a map-pool that reflects the actual maps in use by tournaments. Newkirk city is probably one of the worst maps I've ever played since close spawns on metalopolis were taken out.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
Has any mapmaking group actually tried to contact blizzard about this kind of stuff with stats and explenations? All we see here is ranting about it.
I'm not a big fan of Newkirk City because of TvP. Its really difficult, imo, to push into a protoss because of all the chokes. It has been a good map for me though, running 62% win rate on it.
On December 20 2012 08:34 Monochromatic wrote: At least the map pool is different, but losing Shakuras instead of condemned ridge is quite disappointed.
yup ... weird choice... The logic behind that is probably that the "old" maps have to be cycled to make things interesting, but on the other hand Korhal Compound got removed pretty fast (did Blizzard mention why? Just checked the news for Ladder Maps in season 6 & 7 but it just mentions KC being included, not being removed :O)
They said they ditched it cause tournaments weren't using it.
I seem to recall there was also some balance issues aswell.
I am happy to see Taldarim gone at last. Good to see the pool moving forward.
Some would say Shakuras is gone, but i personally i find it like saying Belshir Beach was removed when its Winter version got introduced.
Newkirk is the legacy of Shakuras. Anyone who cannot see that should considered getting their eyes checked. Of course its design has been refined as expected. Mind you Shakuras used to be a 2v2 map. Newkirk has that design adjusted to be a proper 2 spawn 1v1 map, but the expansion pattern and ways of engagement are largely the same, and thus it can be expected that gameplay too will be similar. Also been given its proper Terran theme because it has always been a design favoring Terran more.
I don't mind through. Shakuras was a map that had you force a direct engagement and didn't allow you very well to circumvent armies through runbies. But those maps have a space in the mappools i feel. Maps can't all be Cloud kingdom.
On December 20 2012 08:34 Monochromatic wrote: At least the map pool is different, but losing Shakuras instead of condemned ridge is quite disappointed.
yup ... weird choice... The logic behind that is probably that the "old" maps have to be cycled to make things interesting, but on the other hand Korhal Compound got removed pretty fast (did Blizzard mention why? Just checked the news for Ladder Maps in season 6 & 7 but it just mentions KC being included, not being removed :O)
They said they ditched it cause tournaments weren't using it.
I seem to recall there was also some balance issues aswell.
Yeah, at pro-level. Monitor developed a version to be more balanced, but Blizzard wouldn't use it on ladder since the stats on it were good. But since it wasn't balanced for tournaments, the tournaments didn't use it and because of that they removed it from ladder.
Two maps I have veto'd, replaced by two maps I'll veto. Awful maps like Antiga that have been in the map pool for over a year and a half still here. Although given how long it took them to remove shakuras, looks like the map pool is set for another year.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
Has any mapmaking group actually tried to contact blizzard about this kind of stuff with stats and explenations? All we see here is ranting about it.
They do it all the time. Diamond from ESV is supposedly in direct contact with Blizzard.
Not that they have any obligation to listen. Which they clearly havn't done in this case.
Also be careful to judge Blizzard ladder maps based on Balance numbers from pro scene. Stuff acts differently on ladder. Cloud Kingdom for example is reported to be 70% PvT. Doesn't mean people are shouting at getting it removed.
Please somebody get us a private server. Blizzard is obviously as incompetent about maps as always. Like literally all they need to do is get someone to post a poll before every season to take two maps out and get two new ones in.
I really hope somebody figures out how to run their own b.net 0.2 server soon, because otherwise I need to get a friendlist full of people to run customs all day, as ladder is gonna be a huge joke. Didn't they say they wanted to make the ladder pool a tournament map pool? I highly doubt any tournament will adopt these shitty new maps (why the fuck are they still making maps anyways they obviously suck at it, the only blizzard maps still used in tournaments are highly imbalanced in some matchups), just copy the kespa/gsl map pool ffs.
blizzard has to be trolling us at this point removing shakuras but keeping condemned? yes its new.. but it's horrible
meanwhile, great maps like TDA are removed, only to add in more terrible maps they created. are they that narcissistic? when will they realize they have always sucked with map design...
no close positions addressed on maps that need it (entombed, antiga) maps like condemned stay.. what? why not abyssal? whirlwind? vestige? .. it feel like they dont watch gsl
On December 20 2012 09:41 Lorch wrote: Please somebody get us a private server. Blizzard is obviously as incompetent about maps as always. Like literally all they need to do is get someone to post a poll before every season to take two maps out and get two new ones in.
I really hope somebody figures out how to run their own b.net 0.2 server soon, because otherwise I need to get a friendlist full of people to run customs all day, as ladder is gonna be a huge joke. Didn't they say they wanted to make the ladder pool a tournament map pool? I highly doubt any tournament will adopt these shitty new maps (why the fuck are they still making maps anyways they obviously suck at it, the only blizzard maps still used in tournaments are highly imbalanced in some matchups), just copy the kespa/gsl map pool ffs.
Maybe that's where the group function comes in, how ironic.
And then there is Blizzard. While five of the ladder six pool still are in the ladder i have a tough time really blaming it on Blizzard. There is 2 reasons. First of all while people critize them for not adding community maps and taking in their own "trash" map, this is how they have always acted. They don't take in community map unless they have already been tried and tested by tournements, they have never done that. And the one time they did take in a GSL map that was sorta new, metropolis, it soon turned out to be one of the most broken map ever both in balance and in design. Heavy lag made metropolis have the douptful honor of being the second map ever to get removed from ladder mid-season. And here begs the question. Which community map outside of the standard pool is currently tested enough to be considered ladder worthy? Because tournements are not bringing in anything new. And even through Blizzard actually have added a new map of their own noone uses it.
The second reason i don't blame Blizzard is that HOTS is coming up. Coming up from WOW i can tell you one thing. This is the season where you can expect least to be done from Blizzard. All their reassources usually gets focused on the expansion and you can also see it in the map pool changes or lack of thereoff. Infact if you take a look at the seasons up until now it is easy to see a pattern. As we got closer to HOTS less and less maps got changed. Sure better overall map balance can be one reason but i think it also tells me that Blizzard have gradually moved their map team over to focus mostly on HOTS. This will probably also mean that once HOTS gets launched we will see Blizzard implementing their own maps in a pace we saw back in season 3. But as for right now it means we can't expect anything here.
i didn't expect them to reverse port some of the HOTS maps so i guess my analyses was slightly off. But overall nothing here is the least surprising. And neither should it surprise you. This is really just the circle moving on really.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
yup
this is what needs to happen. i think we have been too patient with the map pool as a community, especially considering the great mapmaking that has been happening the last year and a half or so
On December 20 2012 09:41 Lorch wrote: Please somebody get us a private server. Blizzard is obviously as incompetent about maps as always. Like literally all they need to do is get someone to post a poll before every season to take two maps out and get two new ones in.
I really hope somebody figures out how to run their own b.net 0.2 server soon, because otherwise I need to get a friendlist full of people to run customs all day, as ladder is gonna be a huge joke. Didn't they say they wanted to make the ladder pool a tournament map pool? I highly doubt any tournament will adopt these shitty new maps (why the fuck are they still making maps anyways they obviously suck at it, the only blizzard maps still used in tournaments are highly imbalanced in some matchups), just copy the kespa/gsl map pool ffs.
Maybe that's where the group function comes in, how ironic.
Almost as ironic as not being able to find friends, or easily play with people around your skill level without being force into ladder and horrible maps. Funny how that logic works, right?
Seriously, you cannot justify the actions blizzard is taking at this point. You can give them valid evidence as to why they should fix it, but if they just continually ignore the community, as they have been doing, we're really only left with the depression that comes from being stuck with this set of developers and community leaders.
@Sumadin : Just because you see it coming, or just because it's continually been happening, does not make a horrible decision justifiable. It's still illogical and does not help further the community, marketing sales, or the social interpretation of those who are "supposed" to be listening to us at blizzard.
Odd to see people saying Blizz doesn't listen after we just saw them listening to a huge amount of community feedback. I can live with decent maps instead of perfect maps, if Blizzard is on point with other stuff which they've shown they can be.
They replaced shakuras with its clone, so useful. For the other map wait and see, it might be a better surprise than expected but still it sucks when potential good maps are waiting outside.
Condemned Ridge is clearly a much better choice than Abyssal City, Bel'shir Vestige, Bifrost, Caldeum, Grand Lagoon, Muspelheim, Planet S, or Whirlwind.
rofl... Seriously blizzard I don't even play WoL but why WHY do you guys refuse to use tournament maps?
Why would you add your own crappy maps?
Sigh to bad blizzard doesn't allow third party to do something because this is a joke. The fact it's going to be the same in hots with the map pool is kinda depressing to think about to :/.
On December 20 2012 09:41 Lorch wrote: Please somebody get us a private server. Blizzard is obviously as incompetent about maps as always. Like literally all they need to do is get someone to post a poll before every season to take two maps out and get two new ones in.
I really hope somebody figures out how to run their own b.net 0.2 server soon, because otherwise I need to get a friendlist full of people to run customs all day, as ladder is gonna be a huge joke. Didn't they say they wanted to make the ladder pool a tournament map pool? I highly doubt any tournament will adopt these shitty new maps (why the fuck are they still making maps anyways they obviously suck at it, the only blizzard maps still used in tournaments are highly imbalanced in some matchups), just copy the kespa/gsl map pool ffs.
Maybe that's where the group function comes in, how ironic.
Almost as ironic as not being able to find friends, or easily play with people around your skill level without being force into ladder and horrible maps. Funny how that logic works, right?
Seriously, you cannot justify the actions blizzard is taking at this point. You can give them valid evidence as to why they should fix it, but if they just continually ignore the community, as they have been doing, we're really only left with the depression that comes from being stuck with this set of developers and community leaders.
@Sumadin : Just because you see it coming, or just because it's continually been happening, does not make a horrible decision justifiable. It's still illogical and does not help further the community, marketing sales, or the social interpretation of those who are "supposed" to be listening to us at blizzard.
just for the record, i'm on this issue pretty much on your side. Bolded part in your post is exactly what i meant. Sorry for my poor communication.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
I think China has some sort of three party ladder based on pirate version of sc2? I may be wrong.
On December 20 2012 08:33 geokilla wrote: Where is Abyssal City? Where is Whirlwind? Blizzard you fail.
I wouldnt be surprised if GSL rotatated those 2 maps out of there pool for next season.
I actually would be shocked if they removed whirlwind. That map has provided so many epic games I just don't see GSL removing a good map that has shown so many good games in the few games played on it xD.
Is there a way to test these maps if you don't have HotS access? Or does anyone have a closeup on the naturals and their entrances with building grid to see how it's possible to wall off?
Hopefully I will finally be able to veto Antiga Shityard if both new maps are playable!
Edit: Oh they were in the client already. Just create a game vs AI if you want to try them out!
Also I don't understand why they are not removing Condemned ridge... Does anyone actually play it?
Edit 2: So I tested the map and both are pretty horrible imo. The naturals are just completely fucked uip, the map sizes and third placements as well. I'm starting to think Blizzard mapmakers don't even think about stuff like proper mineral placement, naturals where your main building isn't 100 yards away from the ramp, scouting times etc... I think they just freestyle a map up, don't test anything, not use any standardizations and just release it...?
sad panda Why the fuck not use kespa maps? And please add some new 2v2 maps, the current ones are plain awfull and weve had them since fucking retail...
On December 20 2012 11:18 synd wrote: Garbage maps. At least now again I have 2 free vetos to veto the garbage.
just to say. akilon isn't entirely garbage. ive had a lot of good games in hots on this map. and that's probably because its blizzards best attempt at a map that resembles alot of the community made maps.
its still ridiculous that they continue to shun us, but im not surprised. ive long said they will only use their maps for the first little while, if not year, of hots.
I'm like so sad right now. I'll have to UN-veto one of my current vetos and I don't even have Antiga veto'ed atm which I would really like. So fucking dissapointed in Blizzard...
finally shak and tda are gone, though i will miss nuking zerg's main on shak early game XD
is relatively easy to split in half for the late game.
I'm hoping that's not blizz's (though more realistically, just the opinion of whoever wrote this) ideal goal to have maps be split easily for you to just turtle, and that they're just stating that those who like split maps will like it xD
Hmm don't like these 1v1 maps much tbh, they're not that bad though
Edit: Disappointed there are no new GSL maps though
I like them all, they look kinda good and weird at the same time. I think blizz could've included some of KeSPA/GSL maps. Good stuff anyways. Time to ladder, gl hf yall ^^
We should really start a petition of some sort to force Blizzard to stop making their own maps. We have GSL and now KESPA making maps FFS, bring them to ladder.
On December 20 2012 11:18 synd wrote: Garbage maps. At least now again I have 2 free vetos to veto the garbage.
just to say. akilon isn't entirely garbage. ive had a lot of good games in hots on this map. and that's probably because its blizzards best attempt at a map that resembles alot of the community made maps.
its still ridiculous that they continue to shun us, but im not surprised. ive long said they will only use their maps for the first little while, if not year, of hots.
Knowing blizzard, we will use their homemade maps for 2-3 years for HoTs with the occasional rocks removed/added here and there to those said maps. Then the standard "the community can make maps too! These are for casuals!" - DB response will come afterwards when the community goes "wtf blizz maps"
On December 20 2012 11:45 SaYProPlz wrote: Is it just me or do both maps seem ridiculously T favored vs P due to the HUGE drop area?
thats why there are 4 watchtowers in akilon, true story
Well, Newkirk is close by air and there's a HUGE airspace and plenty of surface area to drop in. Akilon's watchtowers can't cover everything and the T can deny them, taking them him/herself.
People need to stop with the hate on these maps. Where I will say these maps are by no means great, they're not too bad. Additionally, they are significant improvements over what they are replacing. People should instead be thankful that TDA and Shakuras are finally gone.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
If there's really enough demand for it, I don't see why a ladder set up like the original WGT wouldn't work.
On December 20 2012 12:13 Timetwister22 wrote: People need to stop with the hate on these maps. Where I will say these maps are by no means great, they're not too bad. Additionally, they are significant improvements over what they are replacing. People should instead be thankful that TDA and Shakuras are finally gone.
Please... Don't applaud mediocre maps, and actions taken towards implementing them, when it's a SIMPLE, EASY fix that they're PURPOSELY avoiding. I'd 100% rather play TDA and Shakuras than half of the maps in the HotS pool right now, and saying that has nothing to do with these maps is completely inaccurate because we have been proven by history that the HotS pool will not change much from what it is now.
Try denying drops PvT, especially in hots with booster medivacs, on a map like Newkirk against top level players and then come back and tell me we should be happy they switched the maps around.
Nice to have new maps, but I'm still disappointed in blizzard. They said they wished to work with the community and help incorporate more player-made maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak into the ladder poll. We have maps such as Bel'Shir Vestige, Whirlwind, Abyssal City, ESV Abode, ESV Khaydaria (this one being IronmanSC's last map).
Blizzard still isn't working with the community and this is worrying to me. Hopefully with HOTS they can move forward and add in more community made maps into the pool.
On December 20 2012 11:45 SaYProPlz wrote: Is it just me or do both maps seem ridiculously T favored vs P due to the HUGE drop area?
You mean the fact that the ground area doesn't extend right to the edge of the map, making it ridiculously easy to intercept drops and stop harass, so you have to work harder?
they need to just do a WHOLE NEW MAP POOL for EVERY NEW LADDER SEASON. So sick of seeing they same damn maps with the exception of 2 new maps. It gets old so damn fast.
On December 20 2012 14:32 ReachTheSky wrote: they need to just do a WHOLE NEW MAP POOL for EVERY NEW LADDER SEASON. So sick of seeing they same damn maps with the exception of 2 new maps. It gets old so damn fast.
i totally disagree, we need a pretty stable mappool with only 2-3 getting exchanged every season. but they should finally stop putting in "totally fun and innovative" kind of maps, which dont have the same purpose as what the ladder is about: competing. the unranked play in hots can have whatever maps, "totally fun and different" maps, but please not the ladder.
On December 20 2012 14:32 ReachTheSky wrote: they need to just do a WHOLE NEW MAP POOL for EVERY NEW LADDER SEASON. So sick of seeing they same damn maps with the exception of 2 new maps. It gets old so damn fast.
nah, that would be to hard for the pro's to realy get used to them,
or else you realy have to cut down the number of maps to like 4/5
Darnit Blizzard, add spawn points to the maps. I was looking at Akilon Flats, and was horrified when I thought that I would spawn as a toss to bottom left or top right :S
WoW with Newkirk District, they could've left Shakuras in it. The only difference between those two are guaranteed close air positions and a free fourth base. The map is way too easy to cut in half and will constantly provide with boring games.
akilon flats will be "loved" by Zerg players for the 3rd base
Well, back at BWC I asked Dustin Browder about why there wasn't new maps for 2012 Season 5, and he was like "because we're hard working at HotS?" and later he stated "new maps is not a promise". LOL.
On December 20 2012 08:43 fabiano wrote: It is freaking amazing how Blizzard maps feel so wrong. They give me this suffocating feel, I don't quite can put on words what I mean. Maybe it is the 3d, or things in SC2 look toy-ish, cartoony, I don't know.... I mean, compare it to BW maps, they feel large, they look large and they somehow look more like a broad landscape in some planet:
In my opinion, I think its largely due to the polish that Starcraft 2 models have, it makes them look toy-ish (since toys are usually shiny and polished) and also it gives off a toonish vibe. If they lowered the contrast of the Starcraft 2 graphics and slightly tone down the polish, I bet that it will give off a darker, more BW-ish vibe.
Also, damnit, I know I vetoed those 2 maps on ladder, but I'm not too sure about playing on these 2 maps on WoL...I hated these maps back in HoTS as much as I hated Condemned Ridge...
Oh nice Terran maps for end bit of WoL, me likes. Could have picked some TPW, ESW ones. Actually glad they didn't go for the newer tournament maps, it feels like those maps are already in the pool and I like playing different on each map.
Very good changes!! Taldarim and Shakuras are the two maps I am most tired of. Newkirk is a good map from HotS beta, Akilon could be fun, too (even though it is a bit different from Hots.)
Ask harder for Custom ladder for legacy of the void. That way everyone wins.
But....that idea is horrible. Kinda like these maps.
They're not shit terrible....just not very good. Blizzard seems completely capable of making decent maps, mediocre even. But it's been established that GSL and KESPA make the great maps. This, along with the goddamned Fungal nerf-buff-nerf-buff, makes me a sad panda.
On December 20 2012 21:23 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Oh my god. Shakuras gone? Its my favorite map.
There's a probe in your icon so I assume you're trolling
Tal'darim & Shakuras gone is only reasonable. New maps seem like nothing new but should definitely be better than the two removed ones. And I kind of like fighting on city-designed maps. We shall see. I hope to be playing more in 2013
Shakuras was only here since Beta One more season and the map would have been here for the WHOLE WINGS OF LIBERTY
If you don't get why that's bad then.. These maps seems decent when I played them in Hots People will groan because they don't like changes, but I'll take these maps instead of Whirlwind anyday.
I honestly wish Blizzard would simply use the most up to date GSL map pool for the ladder, for better or for worse (I honestly think maps like Abyssal City *would* be problematic, though).
On December 20 2012 21:18 Jetaap wrote: lol these maps even taking any balance/gameplay consideration aside, they are absolutely ugly compared to any of the top community made maps.
That is because Blizzard gotta keep it simple with regards to ladder maps. Metropolis was kinda the extreme example as it lagged sometimes even in tournements.
Ohana had to be practically remade before it was deemed okay latency for ladder. I am not sure if that happened to korhal aswell.
Not everyone got tournement leveled PC hardware. But if they forfill the minimum requirements for SC2 then the demand for ladder maps is that they run smoothly. On appropiate settings of course.
Meh the 3:3 maps look like shit to play on and they remove two decent maps. This is not good at all, 3:3 used to have a bit different map pool compared to other teamplay maps but now it'll be pretty similar to 4:4 and 2:2. Dont like it a bit, prefered the more BW like feel of 3:3. As for (6) Backwater Complex I cant really tell where the mains are. So pissed right now, I'll have to go and blow some steam off in the ski trails. The 1:1 maps are an improvement, atleast since they remove old boring maps.
Ask harder for Custom ladder for legacy of the void. That way everyone wins.
But....that idea is horrible. Kinda like these maps.
They're not shit terrible....just not very good. Blizzard seems completely capable of making decent maps, mediocre even. But it's been established that GSL and KESPA make the great maps. This, along with the goddamned Fungal nerf-buff-nerf-buff, makes me a sad panda.
So your response to say for example: A king ruling his kingdom with full crown authority, oppressing various factions within his community is to say, well. Democracy would be terrible. This guy is doing alright right?
Worst analogy ever, but it should get the point across. Plenty of people have said blizzard sucks, plenty of people (destiny thread) have pointed and said the custom map system is horrible, and myself I quit playing ladder because half the maps sucked back then, and zerg didn`t have patchfestor. Half of these maps probably still do suck, and will continue to do so as outside of ladder play SC2 is a massive paperweight.
Obviously the ideal situation would be to put more power to the community. To have blizzard do their yearly whatever, and then hand everyone the tools they would need to craft their own experiences within SC2. If not then legacy of the void will simply not have much to roll with in therms of longevity when compared with broodwar. You might say custom ladder is shit, but guess what. ICCUP was (and still is) a custom ladder. It might be using the balance left by blizzard, but it still rolled with its own maps.
On December 20 2012 21:22 Pandemona wrote: (2) Newkirk District is the same as the stupid HOTS beta map, just without the free expo in your base. Should be a laugh i guess.
Wish they would continue to add GSL maps to the ladder, they seemed to have stopped doing that!!
Newkirk District is in the Beta. Your thinking of another map. That ones 4-player.
On December 20 2012 21:27 scoww wrote: will you ever make antiga cross only on ladder? wtf is wrong with you blizzard :/
This, + make entombed close by air and cross only. I don't know why blizz needs so much time to implement very simple changes, commonly tested and accepted by community as beneficial for the game.
On December 20 2012 08:26 juicyjames wrote: The 3v3 Ladder Map Pool
(6) Backwater Complex
(6) Twisted Vern
We need way more maps like these in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4s...
Also I don't understand why people complain about the new maps being HotS maps.... Anything is better than Tal'Darim and Shakura's.... Especially after the 2 years they've been in the pool...
I unvetoed Tal'Darim lately just to give it a go again. I then proceeded to die to 3 mass muta builds on it and remembered why I vetoed it in the first place (All that open space around each base is such a pain). I love the 4gate PvP on it but that map is still really dumb and needs to go.
yeah -taldarim and shakuras i have my 2 vetos to veto 2 new maps
well done blizzard
also no forced cross on 4player maps still what a joke someone should make big thread about it so blizzard finally adds that to the ladder maps so practicing on ladder would be good for you
On December 21 2012 05:51 Diamond wrote: Ugh, porting HotS maps? How lazy can you get?
Considering their entire balance team have been doing nothing but focusing on HOTS i am honestly not surprised that they choose to do this. They got plenty of stats from a crowd that matches ladder to some extent. No time wasted developing new WOL or playtesting community maps when you got all the stats in the world for these very easy to port maps.
On December 21 2012 05:51 Diamond wrote: Ugh, porting HotS maps? How lazy can you get?
Considering their entire balance team have been doing nothing but focusing on HOTS i am honestly not surprised that they choose to do this. They got plenty of stats from a crowd that matches ladder to some extent. No time wasted developing new WOL or playtesting community maps when you got all the stats in the world for these very easy to port maps.
In addition to priority problems, I think it would be weird if they added new maps to WoL that aren't in HotS. You kinda gotta think of it as adding new maps to both at once, just that they had to wait for a new season to start to introduce the WoL ones. It would have been better for them to add actual new ones we haven't seen in HotS yet either to both ladders at the same time, I suppose, but that would have required more maps and it doesn't really matter.
While it feels a bit disappointing that we don't actually see new maps, I see the benefits of it as well. If players (pro players in particular) have the ability to already know and understand the maps before HotS comes out, then they can make better games since they can focus on utilizing the new units and abilities and not worry about the map so much.
After thinking about it, I think it makes sense. The problem I have with it is that these maps aren't very good.
what a stupid map.... TvT will be boring as fuck on this map. Oh wait there is no Terran left lol.
In HoTS TvT is actually really good on this map. Lots of drop area for bio against mech and nice chokes for mech against bio.
It's a pretty decent map, but I always feel removing the norhtern tower would do a lot of good for this map. It would open up a lot more attack paths/drop possibilities in late game. I like that they add HotS maps, we will get them anyways in March, and this way the map pool changes more gradually.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
If there's really enough demand for it, I don't see why a ladder set up like the original WGT wouldn't work.
It's a huge load of work. WGT, PGT, etc had tons of people dedicating their time to it. If there would be a ladder like PGT, I am sure, everyone would use it. I just dont know if it's possible with the way SCIIs works
My biggest hope for HOTS is that blizzard will hopefully take a better involvement in the community maps - blizzard relationship. We have tons of community maps out there that they could add in to the pool for a season to help test out, but often will go several seasons of not adding a help or add in their own bad products when the community will make it for free
This is extremely disappointing, with so many new maps and features that are out there made by the community, GSL and other tournaments, blizzard implements mediocre maps. The only map that i like the most is "backwater complex", due to the team expansions. Other than that i am not impressed.
Just when I thought about coming back to sc2 for 2013 XD I'll just stick to dota and thank you blizzard, you surely know how to make your game even more brainless every patch you release one dimensional straight forward map with xel nagas that cover every attack path? yo-hoooo, FUCK YEAH IT LOOKS LIKE SUCH A GREAT IDEA DUSTIN LET'S THROW THEM IN This is so disgustingly stupid I don't even know why they keep doing this job, they are awful at it and there's no denying it.
On December 20 2012 08:26 juicyjames wrote: The 3v3 Ladder Map Pool
(6) Backwater Complex
(6) Twisted Vern
We need way more maps like these in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4s...
Also I don't understand why people complain about the new maps being HotS maps.... Anything is better than Tal'Darim and Shakura's.... Especially after the 2 years they've been in the pool...
How do you mean? Arent the majority of teamplay maps like these with the exception of 3:3 maps...until now that is. I guess if you like to play like 1:1 in teamgames (I hate people like that) and dont want to learn any team strats Backwater is great. Twisted wern is kinda interesting with it's BW styled middle but fortressmaps are extremely broken and there are already 90% of teammaps. Counter? What is that? I have seen countless games being decided by counters but thats impossible on these new maps. Going to tumb down these unless I'm going to troll and go for BC's or something.
EDIT: Meh I only got one veto left after this change.
On December 20 2012 08:26 juicyjames wrote: The 3v3 Ladder Map Pool
(6) Backwater Complex
(6) Twisted Vern
We need way more maps like these in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4s...
Also I don't understand why people complain about the new maps being HotS maps.... Anything is better than Tal'Darim and Shakura's.... Especially after the 2 years they've been in the pool...
How do you mean? Arent the majority of teamplay maps like these with the exception of 3:3 maps...until now that is. I guess if you like to play like 1:1 in teamgames (I hate people like that) and dont want to learn any team strats Backwater is great. Twisted wern is kinda interesting with it's BW styled middle but fortressmaps are extremely broken and there are already 90% of teammaps. Counter? What is that? I have seen countless games being decided by counters but thats impossible on these new maps. Going to tumb down these unless I'm going to troll and go for BC's or something.
EDIT: Meh I only got one veto left after this change.
Your are trying to go in the right direction, however, your ideas seem to be out of reality. "Backwater Complex" is a map that I would use for team games as well as for 1 vs 1's. On team games, everyone gets expansions that are easily assured to the players, this is also perfect when playing against ai. The game no longer become a 1 base "i kill you" scenario or a race to see which player is the one that takes the expansion first. My only concern is that if you look at these maps from an angle they show male genitalia. I do not know if its a joke or if it was intended to be this way.
On December 20 2012 08:26 juicyjames wrote: The 3v3 Ladder Map Pool
(6) Backwater Complex
(6) Twisted Vern
We need way more maps like these in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4s...
Also I don't understand why people complain about the new maps being HotS maps.... Anything is better than Tal'Darim and Shakura's.... Especially after the 2 years they've been in the pool...
How do you mean? Arent the majority of teamplay maps like these with the exception of 3:3 maps...until now that is. I guess if you like to play like 1:1 in teamgames (I hate people like that) and dont want to learn any team strats Backwater is great. Twisted wern is kinda interesting with it's BW styled middle but fortressmaps are extremely broken and there are already 90% of teammaps. Counter? What is that? I have seen countless games being decided by counters but thats impossible on these new maps. Going to tumb down these unless I'm going to troll and go for BC's or something.
EDIT: Meh I only got one veto left after this change.
Your are trying to go in the right direction, however, your ideas seem to be out of reality. "Backwater Complex" is a map that I would use for team games as well as for 1 vs 1's. On team games, everyone gets expansions that are easily assured to the players, this is also perfect when playing against ai. The game no longer become a 1 base "i kill you" scenario or a race to see which player is the one that takes the expansion first. My only concern is that if you look at these maps from an angle they show male genitalia. I do not know if its a joke or if it was intended to be this way.
My ideas are from playing low hunters in BW. I like actionpacked games with alot of micro and map awareness. The problems with shared bases are that regarless how many safe expansions you can get it's still # base "i kill you" since if you manage to kill one player in the team the rest are dead too since they are in your base. This is like those guys that went forge fast nexus into sair dt on Hunters and were confused that they ended up in 1 vs 3 situations all the time. Only now they have an entire teamplay mappool designed for their playstyle when they should just go and play 1:1.
On December 20 2012 08:26 juicyjames wrote: The 3v3 Ladder Map Pool
(6) Backwater Complex
(6) Twisted Vern
We need way more maps like these in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4s...
Also I don't understand why people complain about the new maps being HotS maps.... Anything is better than Tal'Darim and Shakura's.... Especially after the 2 years they've been in the pool...
How do you mean? Arent the majority of teamplay maps like these with the exception of 3:3 maps...until now that is. I guess if you like to play like 1:1 in teamgames (I hate people like that) and dont want to learn any team strats Backwater is great. Twisted wern is kinda interesting with it's BW styled middle but fortressmaps are extremely broken and there are already 90% of teammaps. Counter? What is that? I have seen countless games being decided by counters but thats impossible on these new maps. Going to tumb down these unless I'm going to troll and go for BC's or something.
EDIT: Meh I only got one veto left after this change.
I mean there needs to be maps where we can expand more than once... I've played so many team games where the maps get mined out because there's only one expansion for each player...
Why do all maps have a HIGH main base that goes into a natural that goes down to the ground?
The ONLY justification i can see is four-gate. And one scenario in one match-up to justify all main bases looking the same is just silly. Am I missing something?
Or is it genuinely something that the map-making community just doesn't really even consider because they're working with "other" space and it just doesn't cross people's minds?
The only one's I'm seeing that don't are the proleague maps.
On December 20 2012 08:33 geokilla wrote: Where is Abyssal City? Where is Whirlwind? Blizzard you fail.
Whirlwind is terrible/old/unpopular and Abyssal City is meh.
I'd much rather have new maps that I haven't played on/seen people play on much over the dumpster GSL maps that you named...
Agreed. Whirlwind is pretty heavily disliked, and Abyssal City is Zerg-favored, which is the last thing we need with the community crying for Zerg blood.
On December 22 2012 05:20 Angel_ wrote: Why do all maps have a HIGH main base that goes into a natural that goes down to the ground?
The ONLY justification i can see is four-gate. And one scenario in one match-up to justify all main bases looking the same is just silly. Am I missing something?
Or is it genuinely something that the map-making community just doesn't really even consider because they're working with "other" space and it just doesn't cross people's minds?
The only one's I'm seeing that don't are the proleague maps.
It is really just for PvP, but since there aren't any real reasons not to do it, and we have three levels of terrain to work with, there's not a lot of point to doing anything else. I agree it's kinda lame, though, and a lot of map makers have tried other things. However, map makers can't even get their super standard maps into the pools, so anything at all questionable would have a very low chance of ever seeing play the way things have been. Of course kespa gets it so they are introducing actually interesting and fresh maps, like they did in BW. We'll have to see how the rest of the scene does with that stuff. It's up to the organizers more than the map makers.
I dissapoint again. And I was exited when I read the thread title. Why did they make 2 small maps. I also dont feel their need to put chockes on every single map. No map is open.
...
Now I feel like Riot deserves to have the game that is the head of esports now -.-
On December 22 2012 00:54 Butterednuts wrote: I love how everyone is smack talking the new maps yet 95% of the opinions in here don't include any real reasoning.
And you guys wonder why Blizzard doesn't change their game more often. All of your opinions are ignorant and without real purpose.
I don't even think YOU know what you want.
Most of the complaints I've seen revolve around Blizzard not putting maps used in competitive play into the map pool... instead they just borrowed maps from another of their games. They own the rights to proleague/GSL maps, not sure why they don't use them when they're the standard for professional play. One possible explanation is that they don't care, and I could see why people could believe that.
On December 22 2012 00:54 Butterednuts wrote: I love how everyone is smack talking the new maps yet 95% of the opinions in here don't include any real reasoning.
And you guys wonder why Blizzard doesn't change their game more often. All of your opinions are ignorant and without real purpose.
I don't even think YOU know what you want.
Most of the complaints I've seen revolve around Blizzard not putting maps used in competitive play into the map pool... instead they just borrowed maps from another of their games. They own the rights to proleague/GSL maps, not sure why they don't use them when they're the standard for professional play.
They won't complain anyway even if they were used, they would like them to be used on ladder to. There is no reason that blizzard DOESN'T put them in, but unfortunately they are trying to please both casuals and pro's.
On December 22 2012 00:54 Butterednuts wrote: I love how everyone is smack talking the new maps yet 95% of the opinions in here don't include any real reasoning.
And you guys wonder why Blizzard doesn't change their game more often. All of your opinions are ignorant and without real purpose.
I don't even think YOU know what you want.
Most of the complaints I've seen revolve around Blizzard not putting maps used in competitive play into the map pool... instead they just borrowed maps from another of their games. They own the rights to proleague/GSL maps, not sure why they don't use them when they're the standard for professional play.
They won't complain anyway even if they were used, they would like them to be used on ladder to. There is no reason that blizzard DOESN'T put them in, but unfortunately they are trying to please both casuals and pro's.
Their trying to do the impossible on ladder :/.
I don't think putting GSL maps in the map pool hurts casuals though. If anything having maps used in televised games can only be better. People love watching games on maps they play themselves, don't they? That's part of the fun.
Don't casuals want well balanced maps that have all the necessary elements to create a fair game?
On December 22 2012 00:54 Butterednuts wrote: I love how everyone is smack talking the new maps yet 95% of the opinions in here don't include any real reasoning.
And you guys wonder why Blizzard doesn't change their game more often. All of your opinions are ignorant and without real purpose.
I don't even think YOU know what you want.
Most of the complaints I've seen revolve around Blizzard not putting maps used in competitive play into the map pool... instead they just borrowed maps from another of their games. They own the rights to proleague/GSL maps, not sure why they don't use them when they're the standard for professional play.
They won't complain anyway even if they were used, they would like them to be used on ladder to. There is no reason that blizzard DOESN'T put them in, but unfortunately they are trying to please both casuals and pro's.
Their trying to do the impossible on ladder :/.
I don't think putting GSL maps in the map pool hurts casuals though. If anything having maps used in televised games can only be better. People love watching games on maps they play themselves, don't they? That's part of the fun.
Don't casuals want well balanced maps that have all the necessary elements to create a fair game?
Players also want variety. Viewers are already noting that generally too many tournaments have been using the same maps for a very long time (proleague excluded...but those maps would be terrible for ladder).
So what if Blizzard decides to add variety and do more for map making?
But don't get me wrong here, I actually somewhat agree with you. I think every season Blizzard should include some recent tournament maps AND their own new maps. Every season.
On December 22 2012 00:54 Butterednuts wrote: I love how everyone is smack talking the new maps yet 95% of the opinions in here don't include any real reasoning.
And you guys wonder why Blizzard doesn't change their game more often. All of your opinions are ignorant and without real purpose.
I don't even think YOU know what you want.
Most of the complaints I've seen revolve around Blizzard not putting maps used in competitive play into the map pool... instead they just borrowed maps from another of their games. They own the rights to proleague/GSL maps, not sure why they don't use them when they're the standard for professional play.
They won't complain anyway even if they were used, they would like them to be used on ladder to. There is no reason that blizzard DOESN'T put them in, but unfortunately they are trying to please both casuals and pro's.
Their trying to do the impossible on ladder :/.
I don't think putting GSL maps in the map pool hurts casuals though. If anything having maps used in televised games can only be better. People love watching games on maps they play themselves, don't they? That's part of the fun.
Don't casuals want well balanced maps that have all the necessary elements to create a fair game?
Yea that is why Blizzard are not taking in GSL maps. Rememper one of the ones they took in last time: Metropolis.
People forgot that Blizzards last attempt at bringing in maps from the community went really REALLY bad. People just voted for Daybreak(the obvious one that Blizzard could have pinpointed well on their own based on feedback) and Metropolis. Which turned out to be the greatest disaster in modern day mapping. Broken both in balance and in design with heavy lag to follow.
I feel like that could very well be why Blizzard has been so hesistant not to add maps that aren't their own. The tournement map pool rotation has been on an all time low outside the GSL in the meantime through so there havn't really been that many maps to choose from either.
Well, if the new proleague maps were on the ladder I might have actually played this season. Because then I would have had the hype of proleague, fantasy proleague, and ladder with proleague maps all running together and it would have made Sc2 fun. So to each his own.
On December 22 2012 06:39 Msr wrote: sigh with vetoes into account versuses other players veto I ONLY play on daybreak cloud and antiga, nothing will change.
just veto daybreak ck and antiga and you and other people will be forced onto your veto maps. Works pretty well, but there is a good chance people will leave. Playing random + vetoing the popular maps = 20% of the games are free wins in 6 seconds.
On December 22 2012 11:04 felisconcolori wrote: Hmm. Can we have Arkanoid LE?
ew, no thank you of all the broodwar maps, i think this one has translated into sc2 the worst. this, crossfire or bifrost. i cannot believe they are playing bifrost in the spl this season.... one forcefield and the entire theory behind the balance of the map goes out of the window. it's not designed for sc2.. i was really surprised when they chose these two maps instead of any of the other recent ones.
i think some of the maps that i find horrible currently like Entombed valley, antiga non cross, the new newkirk station or whatever it is, could all be helped tremendously by removing the watch towers. think about the positional stuff that would happen in tvt, tvz on entombed if the "i see everything except the side hallways, but my natural expo is right above it anyways" watch tower, or the very dominating watch tower vision on antiga. if you removed the watch towers on these maps, attempts to flank an army and regain the middle are much more viable and i think the games would be ten times better. my problem with newkirk and a lot of the newer maps blizzard has made is that there seems to be a "control me" location in the middle of all the maps where you can cut off attack points to yourself pretty much indefinitely and only have to worry about drops (shakuras, antiga, newkirk, etc)
beyond that, i think blizzard has done a good job with the recent maps in encouraging players to take more than three bases... Maps like entombed valley, antiga, tal darim with very early and easy 3 bases and almost impossible-if-behind 4th bases have contributed to the "3base max out and fight" or "deathball" vibe this game has whereas maps like newkirk give even the option to take more bases that don't 9/10 times cause your opponent to immediately attack you (center on antiga, center bases on entombed)
On December 22 2012 00:54 Butterednuts wrote: I love how everyone is smack talking the new maps yet 95% of the opinions in here don't include any real reasoning.
And you guys wonder why Blizzard doesn't change their game more often. All of your opinions are ignorant and without real purpose.
I don't even think YOU know what you want.
Most of the opinions in this thread are backed up with what they want
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
Agreed. With GSL/Kespa maps appearing both unique, fun to play and more or less balanced, Blizzard has to stubbornly make their own ladder maps which are usually shitty to play, bland to look at and will definitely get a veto from me anyway.
Seems like for every thing that Blizzard does right they do 10 additional wrong things to cancel it out. I really want to retain my faith in them, but they really aren't giving me good reasons to do so.
Well, at least it will be fun transferring our map vetos to the new maps instead of Shakuras and Tal Darim. Why Blizzard continues to create there own sub-par maps when there are leagues and communities with maps orders of magnitudes better is beyond me.
Glad that Tal Darim is finally getting the axe. Sad that Condemmed Ridge is still in play, but obviously as a Terran that is veto #1 so I'll never see it again. Probably the worst Terran map in history.
Something kind of bothers me about that 2nd new 1v1 map. Seems like scrap station ish. Everyone hated scrap station. It is super large and just seems like a bit weird. I'll give it a few WOL games before I give it the ban hammer though.
On December 22 2012 11:04 felisconcolori wrote: Hmm. Can we have Arkanoid LE?
ew, no thank you of all the broodwar maps, i think this one has translated into sc2 the worst. this, crossfire or bifrost. i cannot believe they are playing bifrost in the spl this season.... one forcefield and the entire theory behind the balance of the map goes out of the window. it's not designed for sc2.. i was really surprised when they chose these two maps instead of any of the other recent ones.
i think some of the maps that i find horrible currently like Entombed valley, antiga non cross, the new newkirk station or whatever it is, could all be helped tremendously by removing the watch towers. think about the positional stuff that would happen in tvt, tvz on entombed if the "i see everything except the side hallways, but my natural expo is right above it anyways" watch tower, or the very dominating watch tower vision on antiga. if you removed the watch towers on these maps, attempts to flank an army and regain the middle are much more viable and i think the games would be ten times better. my problem with newkirk and a lot of the newer maps blizzard has made is that there seems to be a "control me" location in the middle of all the maps where you can cut off attack points to yourself pretty much indefinitely and only have to worry about drops (shakuras, antiga, newkirk, etc)
beyond that, i think blizzard has done a good job with the recent maps in encouraging players to take more than three bases... Maps like entombed valley, antiga, tal darim with very early and easy 3 bases and almost impossible-if-behind 4th bases have contributed to the "3base max out and fight" or "deathball" vibe this game has whereas maps like newkirk give even the option to take more bases that don't 9/10 times cause your opponent to immediately attack you (center on antiga, center bases on entombed)
None of them were really designed for SC2 in the first place. They're trying to rehash old maps that sort of panned out before in BW and due to time constraints and the fact it's much easier to do it this way. That's what they did. I was never a big fan of Towers to begin with and once again we see Blizzard putting more focus on them. GL players with your harass and trying to get things by.
On December 22 2012 08:42 FeyFey wrote: Playing random + vetoing the popular maps = 20% of the games are free wins in 6 seconds.
well, that sounds horrible.
How are they free wins? Advantage maybe, but free win?
I'm not sure what he means exactly, but Protoss vs Random getting Zerg is so stupid because you're forced to open Gateway, which very few players ever do. Luckily they're fixing this in HotS.
On December 20 2012 08:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think its time for a 3rd party ladder to rise up and replace the Blizzard one ------- before they kill their own game by insisting on making their own ladder maps.
The way they insist on making the middle of every map un-passable due to watchtowers is just annoying.
Is that actually possible in starcraft 2? Doesn't blizzard control their game against piracy and that kind of stuff? I would Love to have such a system to be honest. I think it might increase the interest in starcraft 2.
why is condemned ridge still in the map pool... and correct me if im wrong but havent players considered hots ladder maps to be complete shit? I dont like these changes at all, sure shakuras and Tal'darim are very VERY old maps, but they were balanced and good maps because of that (fine TDA without rocks should've been removed but I dont complain as a zerg player :D)
I guess this means I won't have to play the cloud blinkdom and antblinkga blinkyard maps anymore, for reasons I will keep to myself. I have to wait and see (and feel )how the new maps work for certain protoss 1-base-all-ins though.
Kinda hoping that they start adding more GSL maps in to the pool, they seem to play out better than the ones that Blizzard make up themselves. And it is always nice after watching the GSL to jump on SC2 and play on the maps you were just watching.
On January 01 2013 02:20 paradoxOO9 wrote: Kinda hoping that they start adding more GSL maps in to the pool, they seem to play out better than the ones that Blizzard make up themselves. And it is always nice after watching the GSL to jump on SC2 and play on the maps you were just watching.
I'd rather them add maps like Arkanoid and Caldeum/Bifrost since every game I end up playing on GSL maps plays out exactly the same it feels like.
I give these maps a passable, though I wish the areas in the middle were slightly larger. I don't know why blizzard does not want me to have room to fight or to have my units clump up into unusable balls. The towers are still in weird places and super easy to claim.
On January 01 2013 02:20 paradoxOO9 wrote: Kinda hoping that they start adding more GSL maps in to the pool, they seem to play out better than the ones that Blizzard make up themselves. And it is always nice after watching the GSL to jump on SC2 and play on the maps you were just watching.
I'd rather them add maps like Arkanoid and Caldeum/Bifrost since every game I end up playing on GSL maps plays out exactly the same it feels like.
I agree. I certainly wouldn't want Whirlwind or Bel'shir Vestige on on ladder since it would make things even more passive than they already are. The Proleague maps seem much more interesting even if they are a bit gimmicky compared to what we are used to (though that might not be a bad thing).
Blizzard proves their incompetence when it comes to mapmaking with every new season. Akilon Flats is just a terrible map, in HotS as well as in WoL. Still no cross spawn on 4v4 maps, still no neutral supply depots, still joke maps such as Comdemned Ridge in the map pool. Just adopt the GSL map pool FFS.
Akilon is nice, but Newkirk is just plain weird. Half of the map is not used and the action will gather around the lower XNT in the middle. Am I the only one who thinks that protoss will have hard time securing 3rd there?
About GSL or Kespa maps: meh. Maybe Caldeum and Abyssal city, definitely not Whirlwind. Maps that are getting larger and larger promote deathballism too much. We need more intense maps that have features that promote early and midgame aggression. Cloud Kingdom does this, Bel'Shir beach did this, but maps like TDA and Condemned and Metalopolis are just too damn huge to be especially attractive. Too much empty space to travel and too much time for opponent (read: zerg) to pump out all the units needed to deal with the aggression.
Blizzard should stop making maps its just wasted workforce. Just delete Taldarim and Shakuras and give us whirlwind or one of the Kespa maps, it isnt that hard. Why dont they see that they really suck in the map department?
Akilon flats seems like a very interesting map, but I'm afraid the natural ramp is too large, just if it was a bit smaller it would been great. But like that, it's hard to ffe on the map. I like newkirk district less, not sure if it's because the map is poorly designed especially with the watch towers most people point out or just because I lost on it a lot in hots.
On January 01 2013 04:38 ILuMiNaTe wrote: Everyone hates so hard, just try them out first.
Everyone who wants to can play them right now in hots, and has been for a while. People don't even hate because of the maps themselves, they hate because blizzard continues to ignore the obvious. There are people in korea who literally get paid to make good maps, there is an entire sub-community all about making maps, yet they choose to let whatever incompetent person at blizzard continue to make maps and they put them into a ladder pool they themselves said would be made more tournament like, I don't see any wol tournaments with the 2 new maps or condemned ridge. Yet I do see maps like whirlwind or abyssal city or even the new kespa maps being used.
But hating obviously doesn't do shit otherwise we would have a good map pool by now, so lets just get some people to figure out how to run a private b.net 0.2.
THANK GOD THANK BLIZZARD they are getting rid of Ulaan Deeps (map had broken strategies) and Monsoon (should never have been brought back in the first place)
That being said, Twisted Vern seems pretty bad at first glance. In many cases the distance your opponents have to go to get to your expansions is almost the same you have to go. That is just stupid design.
Backwater Complex looks fun but seems to also suffer from short distances and ambiguous base syndrome.
The 1v1 maps are.... uninspiring. They had so many good maps to choose from and they decided to just throw these two in, I doubt we'll see them stick around for very long. Its about time they got rid of Shakuras and TDA though, just because they were getting stale.
Edit: I'm glad Blizzard is continuing to produce maps. It's not like they refuse to incorporate community maps into the map pool, they just mix them in.
I think this is better for diversity, even if it isn't perfect (which is why downranking exists)
On January 01 2013 05:13 tili wrote: Colour me excitement.
Edit: I'm glad Blizzard is continuing to produce maps. It's not like they refuse to incorporate community maps into the map pool, they just mix them in.
I think this is better for diversity, even if it isn't perfect (which is why downranking exists)
to bad blizzard rarely inputs community maps. Last one was what daybreak and cloud kingdom which are pretty old now.
On January 01 2013 07:39 Blisse wrote: I would like to see some of the Kespa maps (Arkanoid!!). They look fun and promote really really different playstyles.
On January 01 2013 07:39 Blisse wrote: I would like to see some of the Kespa maps (Arkanoid!!). They look fun and promote really really different playstyles.
On January 01 2013 05:13 tili wrote: Colour me excitement.
Edit: I'm glad Blizzard is continuing to produce maps. It's not like they refuse to incorporate community maps into the map pool, they just mix them in.
I think this is better for diversity, even if it isn't perfect (which is why downranking exists)
to bad blizzard rarely inputs community maps. Last one was what daybreak and cloud kingdom which are pretty old now.
The last ones was Daybreak and Metropolis.
The latter being such a faillure may explain why this havn't happened again.
On January 01 2013 05:13 tili wrote: Colour me excitement.
Edit: I'm glad Blizzard is continuing to produce maps. It's not like they refuse to incorporate community maps into the map pool, they just mix them in.
I think this is better for diversity, even if it isn't perfect (which is why downranking exists)
to bad blizzard rarely inputs community maps. Last one was what daybreak and cloud kingdom which are pretty old now.
The last ones was Daybreak and Metropolis.
The latter being such a faillure may explain why this havn't happened again.
The other one was Korhal Compound, which didn't have the lag problems Metropolis did, but was also a failure in its own way. So of the two community map updates, we've gotten two standard tournament maps, one that most people don't like, and one that crashed people's computers. Blizzard's last update was Entombed Valley, which is a decent map and a tournament staple, and Condemned Ridge, which kinda sucks.
On January 01 2013 07:39 Blisse wrote: I would like to see some of the Kespa maps (Arkanoid!!). They look fun and promote really really different playstyles.
dustin browder would probably hate it that his rocks explode
On January 01 2013 05:13 tili wrote: Colour me excitement.
Edit: I'm glad Blizzard is continuing to produce maps. It's not like they refuse to incorporate community maps into the map pool, they just mix them in.
I think this is better for diversity, even if it isn't perfect (which is why downranking exists)
to bad blizzard rarely inputs community maps. Last one was what daybreak and cloud kingdom which are pretty old now.
That's true - perhaps the balance between the two hasn't been found, but I like that they are still making new maps
blizzard doesnt add gsl maps much like they dont actually listen to the pros they "consult with". they have posted that they rather take the advice of the developers who "see the big picture" vs the pros who have good but bias ideas. They literally have said we listen but dont care.
Newkirk District is FANTASTIC in HOTS ! but for wol its to easy to split and i dont think its balanced, there are something contai nbreaking missing like tempest, viper etc
On January 01 2013 13:37 sunglasseson wrote: blizzard doesnt add gsl maps much like they dont actually listen to the pros they "consult with". they have posted that they rather take the advice of the developers who "see the big picture" vs the pros who have good but bias ideas. They literally have said we listen but dont care.
zergs protoss terrans ... every pro have different oppinions, coming from them only maps balanced on super high level come in, also having gsl maps in its fuckn boring same maps over and over again ... i like blizzard maps ! i think they do it right
On January 01 2013 13:37 sunglasseson wrote: blizzard doesnt add gsl maps much like they dont actually listen to the pros they "consult with". they have posted that they rather take the advice of the developers who "see the big picture" vs the pros who have good but bias ideas. They literally have said we listen but dont care.
zergs protoss terrans ... every pro have different oppinions, coming from them only maps balanced on super high level come in, also having gsl maps in its fuckn boring same maps over and over again ... i like blizzard maps ! i think they do it right
k but when every pro gives the same feedback and there is a massive playerbase feedback for the same thing one hopes it gets fixed. close position spawns, small maps, rocks covering 3rds.... these are all horrible things that blizzard hasnt fixed fully
Blizzard is making the right choice. If all they did was let the community dictate what maps should go into the pool, we will end up with a pile of daybreaks.
I can dig Akilon Flat but Newkirk is just really bad. Akilon can be very interesting due to the 3rd/4th placements. but Newkirk and those 2 watchtowers that covers the all area in the middle of the map is just bad..... sigh
On December 20 2012 08:43 fabiano wrote: It is freaking amazing how Blizzard maps feel so wrong. They give me this suffocating feel, I don't quite can put on words what I mean. Maybe it is the 3d, or things in SC2 look toy-ish, cartoony, I don't know.... I mean, compare it to BW maps, they feel large, they look large and they somehow look more like a broad landscape in some planet:
I guess it's the 3D that cuts a lot of the players imagination.
Strangely enough it's probably the different way they handle the art in SC2 - largely as a consequence of improving engines and programming, everything is magnitudes more detailed (which gives a sense of being closer-in, because intuitively the closer you are the more you can make out), but also the perspective in which the artists do textures and such really give the feeling of close-in or far-off in terms of maps.
I dont understand the need for xel naga towers. Imagine antiga WITHOUT the tower in the middle. Or those 4 towers in the new 2player map from HOTS. A map without towers would so much more refreshing on ladder.
On January 01 2013 13:08 GolemMadness wrote: They should have two new maps replacing the two oldest maps every season. Honestly, it's kind of ridiculous that this isn't happening already.
Or maybe remove two (one) most veto'ed maps each season. That's how we could keep good maps such as Cloud Kingdom until we really get better alternatives.
On January 01 2013 13:37 sunglasseson wrote: blizzard doesnt add gsl maps much like they dont actually listen to the pros they "consult with". they have posted that they rather take the advice of the developers who "see the big picture" vs the pros who have good but bias ideas. They literally have said we listen but dont care.
zergs protoss terrans ... every pro have different oppinions, coming from them only maps balanced on super high level come in, also having gsl maps in its fuckn boring same maps over and over again ... i like blizzard maps ! i think they do it right
k but when every pro gives the same feedback and there is a massive playerbase feedback for the same thing one hopes it gets fixed. close position spawns, small maps, rocks covering 3rds.... these are all horrible things that blizzard hasnt fixed fully
But not having all spawn positions is gonna confuse shitty players, they barely survived shakuras, same goes for shitty maps need something that is nice for bad players. I mean it's those guys we, for some reason that is just beyond me, want more of right? Blizz is just doing what appeals casuals, and when league of legends, one of the easiest multiplayer games of all time, has the biggest player base, you can't really blame blizz for fucking pros this hard...
i feel they are just too big. i mean im all for bigger maps but they are maybe 3 hex too big on the main bases and i found in some of the games ive played today my ovie spread is amazing but there is too much space and all the games ive played on them has gone over 40 mins. . .3 games a day . .dude . . i could get in at least 12 before!
the maps are good but atm . . .too big and going to take some getting used to
On January 02 2013 12:16 Flameling wrote: "Newkirk District" really reminds me of the BW Map "Ride of Valkyries", except in a more standard SC2 map format. Pics for reference: + Show Spoiler +
Maybe it's just me though.
WOW you are right to a certain extent, but ROV is a lot different because of the pathing, island, and top bases are cut off at the top so u can only get there by dropship or going all the way around, and also the huge top high ground and blocked off from the top base expos, it is similar but a lot different, not close enough imo.
I just realised that I miss old maps where they were so much more freestyle. I wish they would find ways to balance maps like Xel naga and stuff because personnally I enjoyed watching those games more
On January 03 2013 02:30 InfectedGoat wrote: I just realised that I miss old maps where they were so much more freestyle. I wish they would find ways to balance maps like Xel naga and stuff because personnally I enjoyed watching those games more
Oh yeah, when I went and watched Leenock vs Clide on the old Shakuras... Everyone complained about it at the time, but sometimes the games were a lot more interesting.
Newkirk: will be a split map 200 v 200 turtle fest, or people will all in early to avoid it which will make for pretty uninteresting game play. If anything it's a downgrade from shakuras which at least had 'a way' to avoid the middle choke. Not that shakuras wasn't antiquated, just that this map isn't a suitable replacement.
Akilon: My biggest complaint would be it's uninteresting and drab. The 'two choices for a third' promotion they gave it will likely not live up to it, one or the other base will become 'the' choice for various reasons. Will have to see how it plays out it's 'better' mildly then tal, possibly better then shak, but if it is at all it's not by much.
Overall with so many other more competitive more interesting maps coming out of the leagues it's just hard to fathom why blizzard insists on trying to create their own in house maps. As it was put already a non blizzard ladder at least for competitive play is long overdue.
On January 03 2013 03:00 Nerski wrote: Newkirk: will be a split map 200 v 200 turtle fest, or people will all in early to avoid it which will make for pretty uninteresting game play. If anything it's a downgrade from shakuras which at least had 'a way' to avoid the middle choke. Not that shakuras wasn't antiquated, just that this map isn't a suitable replacement.
Akilon: My biggest complaint would be it's uninteresting and drab. The 'two choices for a third' promotion they gave it will likely not live up to it, one or the other base will become 'the' choice for various reasons. Will have to see how it plays out it's 'better' mildly then tal, possibly better then shak, but if it is at all it's not by much.
Overall with so many other more competitive more interesting maps coming out of the leagues it's just hard to fathom why blizzard insists on trying to create their own in house maps. As it was put already a non blizzard ladder at least for competitive play is long overdue.
Have you played Newkirk before?
The middles pretty damn big so it's hard to split the map.
Super happy to finally see Shakuras gone. As for Tal'Darim I personally didn't mind it too much. Now let's hope these new maps will be better. Condemned Ridge should've gone too though.
the most amazing thing about adding kespa maps to ladder (caldeum, bifrost, arkanoid) would be that I for the life of me am filled with extreme curiosity at which race would actually be deemed strongest on arkanoid
Ive seen all different people thinking each of the 3 races would be the overpowered one on arkanoid. Many think toss should be the weak one due to slower expanding but from what ive gathered toss has won 100% of their proleague games on arkanoid. God the map IMO seems so awesome would love to ladder on it.
Well I know that I am getting here a little late but does anyone have any suggestions for which maps I should veto as a toss player besides condemned ridge now that tal darim and shakuras are gone?
On January 03 2013 03:00 Nerski wrote: Newkirk: will be a split map 200 v 200 turtle fest, or people will all in early to avoid it which will make for pretty uninteresting game play. If anything it's a downgrade from shakuras which at least had 'a way' to avoid the middle choke. Not that shakuras wasn't antiquated, just that this map isn't a suitable replacement.
Akilon: My biggest complaint would be it's uninteresting and drab. The 'two choices for a third' promotion they gave it will likely not live up to it, one or the other base will become 'the' choice for various reasons. Will have to see how it plays out it's 'better' mildly then tal, possibly better then shak, but if it is at all it's not by much.
Overall with so many other more competitive more interesting maps coming out of the leagues it's just hard to fathom why blizzard insists on trying to create their own in house maps. As it was put already a non blizzard ladder at least for competitive play is long overdue.
Have you played Newkirk before?
The middles pretty damn big so it's hard to split the map.
I played my first ladder game on Newkirk earlier today. It lasted 2 hours.
Oddly I still like the map though... it's definitely very similar to Shakuras, but not quite as narrow (which was the main flaw of Shakuras).
Newkirk city is really good, and that desert map isn't too bad either. I'd much rather have these than maps like Arkanoid and Bifrost that's for damn sure.
But I guess it's the cool thing to do, hating on Blizzard maps that is no matter if they're really bad or not.
The desert map isnt actually that bad imo. Except the towers are quite ridiculous... don't really make much sense. The other map is just as bad as shakuras for protoss. I doubt any protoss are playing on that map unless they're all inning
EPT
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