EPTedit: typos
MLG Fall Championship Groups - Page 14
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Grimmac
United Kingdom71 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
Sadly I'm starting to feel the same way about a lot of eSF players since watching the MvP invitational, kespa players are just so much more awesome, I hope all 5 attending will make it into the top5 :D | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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UndoneJin
United States438 Posts
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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On November 02 2012 23:32 UndoneJin wrote: The groups are setup for at least one foreigner to get out, depending obviously on the strength of the open-bracket players and which groups they happen to be in. It will be interesting no matter what happens, but I'm hoping for some craziness It's MLG-format, so everyone in the groups will "get out of the groups", the difference being where they'll be placed in the championship bracket. | ||
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Kilby
Finland1069 Posts
On November 02 2012 23:17 Grimmac wrote: I'm afraid it will be koreanfest ... seriously, dont get me wrong, they're amazing, but somehow it makes me depreciate a bit the tournament knowing that all foreigners have little to no chances... I'd prefer 20% koreans , instead 90% :/ edit: typos Well, against the Koreanfest, now that Stephano is not taking part I guess our hopes are on Naniwa. Of course there's always the opportunity of some dark horse, like QXC for example coming out of the open bracket but that seems pretty unlikely. I don't think we will be seeing many foreigners in the last stages of the tournament. And unfortunately that is currently the state of the game. Korea seems to be dominating and the rest of the world is behind, again.. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
ESWC sorta ruining foreigner chances in this one (Stephano, et al). However, we get to see KeSPA, so we still get a rivalry. Despite there not being a good KR vs World mechanic here, we have the first big elephant tournament to watch. However, it's harder to explain to my gf and my friends who is who. Effin racists. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
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Kilby
Finland1069 Posts
On November 02 2012 23:27 Lorch wrote: Foreigners are just sooo fucking bad at the game at this point. I have a really hard time watching almost every foreigner know, they are just so passive, so slow and you can tell how little most practice. Here's my 2 cents: At that level it's not that much about practice though. Of course practice always makes better and it's a known fact that foreigners train less than Koreans but I would just like to point out that at the very highest level, like at the very top of the pyramid, it's not actually practice that makes the difference. Just look at any other sport. I like to use Usain Bolt as an example here because he is so contemporary and so well known to everyone. At the very top of a certain discipline it is always the combination of sheer natural talent as well as practice that determines who is the absolute best. There are hundreds, even thousands of 100m sprinters out there who train as much or even more than Usain Bolt but because Usain Bolt has huge amounts of natural talent and also practices a lot that puts him way above his competitors. The people who are not so naturally talented but practice insane amounts still cannot even come close to him. And that can be applied to pretty much every competitive sports out there. From chess to ice hockey. Now when you look at Korea and any other country in the world, you have X amount of people who are interested in Starcraft and decide they want to test it out and then try to make it to professional status if they can. They play the game a bit and realise they are better than their opponents and play some more. In Korea the culture is such that X is simply a much bigger amount of people than in any other country and because of that there is a way higher propability that those natural talents actually end up trying the game out. Of course there are some random exceptions to this, like Stephano, but because Esports is so small in the rest of the word that means that the biggest talents outside Korea will probably never even touch Starcraft. And because Korea has that Esports infrastructure as well as the competitive environment that comes with it, they will simply have a much bigger chance of having those Usain Bolts of Starcraft playing the game and being in the professional scene. And there is simply no amount of practice that can counter that. | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On November 03 2012 03:05 Crownlol wrote: Well he has a whole lined named after him, so I didn't think anyone would forget. just saying, i think he got a better chance than some of the guys you listed there (read: americans that aren't Scarlett) | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On November 03 2012 03:17 Schelim wrote: just saying, i think he got a better chance than some of the guys you listed there (read: americans that aren't Scarlett) Scarlett Canadian  but yeah, Grubby has a better chance than Illusion. Sheth can be really surprising sometimes. | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
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WigglingSquid
5194 Posts
On November 03 2012 03:08 Kilby wrote: Here's my 2 cents: At that level it's not that much about practice though. Of course practice always makes better and it's a known fact that foreigners train less than Koreans but I would just like to point out that at the very highest level, like at the very top of the pyramid, it's not actually practice that makes the difference. Just look at any other sport. I like to use Usain Bolt as an example here because he is so contemporary and so well known to everyone. At the very top of a certain discipline it is always the combination of sheer natural talent as well as practice that determines who is the absolute best. There are hundreds, even thousands of 100m sprinters out there who train as much or even more than Usain Bolt but because Usain Bolt has huge amounts of natural talent and also practices a lot that puts him way above his competitors. The people who are not so naturally talented but practice insane amounts still cannot even come close to him. And that can be applied to pretty much every competitive sports out there. From chess to ice hockey. Very poor analogy. Playing Starcraft is a diverse group of fuzzy skills learned through cognitive effort and mistakes can be easily corrected with proper guidance and attention; as such, your proficiency level is very flexible. "Talent", whatever it is, can and will help but it is ridicolous to expect people to be born with a tailored propensity to a particular videogame. Applying it to Starcraft 2 is pure handwavium. It's not talent that makes the difference at the "top level", is having learned the correct set of skills for Starcraft rather than another one at whatever speed and at whatever point in time. On the other hand, there is hardly any way around the shape of your muscles, which strength must be very carefully built over time and developed without overworking them. I can always learn that the likelihood of timing X is Y, or that my marines tend to die at a certain speed against a set of units, but my quadriceps will only pump so many Newtons before they give up and I am left limping for days to end, not to mention the fact that it won't be possible to grow them past a certain size. There are, of course, many things in SC2 with strong thresholds for humans (micro, probability, calculations etc.), but its overall workings are so fuzzy that it hardly matters. | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
On November 02 2012 23:17 Grimmac wrote: I'm afraid it will be koreanfest ... seriously, dont get me wrong, they're amazing, but somehow it makes me depreciate a bit the tournament knowing that all foreigners have little to no chances... I'd prefer 20% koreans , instead 90% :/ edit: typos If you want your precious foreigners to improve, this is the only way. To be the best they have to compete among the best. No one is going to improve without tough competition thrown at them to better themselves. Foreigners already have it easy in the fact that this is their home turf which means less travel, jet lag and difficulties reaching to the destination. As well as the majority of strategies have been innovated by the Koreans...the foreigners simply just have to watch vods and mimic, then refine it over and over until perfection. | ||
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
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Kilby
Finland1069 Posts
On November 03 2012 03:32 WigglingSquid wrote: Very poor analogy. Playing Starcraft is a diverse group of fuzzy skills learned through cognitive effort and mistakes can be easily corrected with proper guidance and attention; as such, your proficiency level is very flexible. "Talent", whatever it is, can and will help but it is ridicolous to expect people to be born with a tailored propensity to a particular videogame. Applying it to Starcraft 2 is pure handwavium. It's not talent that makes the difference at the "top level", is having learned the correct set of skills for Starcraft rather than another one at whatever speed and at whatever point in time. On the other hand, there is hardly any way around the shape of your muscles, which strength must be very carefully built over time and developed without overworking them. I can always learn that the likelihood of timing X is Y, or that my marines tend to die at a certain speed against a set of units, but my quadriceps will only pump so many Newtons before they give up and I am left limping for days to end, not to mention the fact that it won't be possible to grow them past a certain size. There are, of course, many things in SC2 with strong thresholds for humans (micro, probability, calculations etc.), but its overall workings are so fuzzy that it hardly matters. You pointed out something that I intetionally left out. The 100m sprint is probably at the lowest level when it comes to complexity of skills involved. And that is why I used it as an example. People are always more or less naturally talented in things, no matter their complexity. And if this happens even in such a simple thing as 100m sprint, just imagine how much more those natural skill can affect more demanding, more complex things. If you want to look at a situation where "fuzzy" skills are required to win you should look at chess. It is not about the muscles witch which you move the pieces nor how much theory you know. It is about the skill you can show in the actual game and that is something where some people are simply much better than others no matter how much they have practiced. And that is where natural talent comes to play. Look at Kasparov or Carlsen. They are not the best in chess because they have learned the "builds" better than all other pro gamers. You should look beyond the mechanics and look at decision making, strategy, attack positions and such for the answer. I honestly cannot even say I'm qualified to talk about all the different skillsets that a person can be good at in chess or in Starcraft aside from pure mechanics. As you say, Starcraft is much more "fuzzy" than 100m sprint. But you are right in saying that if you are playing against a computer that plays a million actions per second then you will most likely lose, no matter who you are or how talented you are. We have actually seen that in chess already with Kasparov vs computer. But as long as we are playing against people, mechanics is certainly not the most important thing. If you wan't an example, just look at Flash in BW. Was he better than the rest because he was better mechanically or was it simply because he was better at the game? And by the way people are born with all kinds of wacky talents. As they grow up, some people realise they are really good at singing, others at running, others at storytelling, others at drawing, others at chess and others at a set of different skills that are required in a certain video game. Of course these talents can always be improved with practice but the simple (and sometimes depressing) truth is that some people just are naturally more talented in things than others. | ||
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hpTheGreat
United States173 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
Group A: Kind of up in the air but I will go with HerO! If HerO doesn't win I assume Leenock will. Either that or Hyvaa, who showed great games in MvP. But still, HERO!!!!!! Group B: Looks like Flash should take it. He's not the best Kespa SC2 player, but he made it further in Code A than TheSTC or Naniwa. If Flash loses, it will probably be to TheSTC. Flash!!! Group C: Holy mother of all stacked groups. Smart money is on Life, but with Taeja and skilled zergs in Violet and Soulkey, it is not inconceivable that the Code S champion does not win the group. If he doesn't I'm betting on Taeja. Life!!!! Group D: Unfortunately, The most exciting (and possibly group deciding) game for me will be Scarlett vs. Bomber. If Bomber plays at his best, he should win, and may be able to ride that to a win. However, he will certainly have to contend with soO from the other side of the bracket, and Heart is no slouch either. Bomber!!! | ||
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