Yeah I'm very disappointed aswell. Those korean apeX players were pretty much the only players with TheStC and couple others that I wanted to see. Not really sure if I will even watch it anymore. Really shame.
I feel as if it might have been a communication problem.
According to their facebook: "Sorry for the Lack of Updates, but its really hard to get Wi-Fi over here at EGL8, Manchester. :S All apeX Players and Teams could win their Matches so far, we´ll update you further as soon as we´re going to have Wi-Fi again!"
But this alone doesn't say much, it's not hard to go to a local internet cafe, or somewhere with accessible wifi. :/
Is it because they couldn't accomodate their transport? Is it just bad management that couldn't organize it properly?
Ugh. . . i'm way to drama'd out already, hopefully there is a simple, good explanation for this. I'm sure they'll speak soon. . . for their own sake hah
Edit: Just listened to the SoTG cast where they gave a little brief on whats happened . . . bad management of course. A shame.
I'm really trying to hold back any knee jerk reactions til we get a full story. But it's hard to be surprised given the organization's shady history. If they could barely support their console teams with a few hundred dollars, did we ever really think they'd be able to send multiple players to international events? In my opinion this is strike one, I really hope this was just a fluke and that they'll be able to give the players the support they deserve.
On October 19 2012 10:05 smOOthMayDie wrote: I feel as if it might have been a communication problem.
According to their facebook: "Sorry for the Lack of Updates, but its really hard to get Wi-Fi over here at EGL8, Manchester. :S All apeX Players and Teams could win their Matches so far, we´ll update you further as soon as we´re going to have Wi-Fi again!"
But this alone doesn't say much, it's not hard to go to a local internet cafe, or somewhere with accessible wifi. :/
On October 19 2012 10:05 smOOthMayDie wrote: I feel as if it might have been a communication problem.
According to their facebook: "Sorry for the Lack of Updates, but its really hard to get Wi-Fi over here at EGL8, Manchester. :S All apeX Players and Teams could win their Matches so far, we´ll update you further as soon as we´re going to have Wi-Fi again!"
But this alone doesn't say much, it's not hard to go to a local internet cafe, or somewhere with accessible wifi. :/
Internet cafe in England? O_O
I've never heard of such a place.
^^ in german too nearly every internet cafe is gone since 2008 ? it was on every corner from 1999+ on ^^
well perhaps mc donalds have internet always xD or you dont have that too ?
This is a bit late news though, Hellspawn tweeted about it way before Xlord and since Hellspawn is one of the DHW admins you can trust him when he tweets " All the korean players from APEX have withdrawn their paticipation from Bucharest"
Less than a month after restarting the SC2 division they already can't send out their headline players...
Is there actually someone in Korea with knowledge of what foreign teams are reputable who can help players before they jump in with teams with shady histories?
On October 19 2012 23:40 xSilverx wrote: This is a bit late news though, Hellspawn tweeted about it way before Xlord and since Hellspawn is one of the DHW admins you can trust him when he tweets " All the korean players from APEX have withdrawn their paticipation from Bucharest"
XlorD never tweeted anything! OP confused XlorD and Hellspawn, don't ask me how .
It's really sad, but some of these teams throw out huge numbers and players are easily seduced by the dollar or in this case it'd be the euro...When this team was announced I was waiting for this to happen. It was a lot sooner tbh..
On October 19 2012 22:44 Lysanias wrote: So this team already short on money ? I really hope that that is not the case and that there are other reasons for it.
They are not short on money. They set up some office somewhere in DE, Munich I think. I've heard from ex-apeX mangers that besides the office being really expensive, they're paying ~6k/month for internet and phones alone. The owner is really rich because of some family business or something. Anyways, I think the owner went into the business expecting to make some money out of it, as he was taking some percentage from their CoD teams winnings. This is kind of silly because some of the prize pools for CoD are really small (~3k for first place at the most recent EGL event). So they have money but he does not want to give it to players or something like that. The company is pretty whack and as long as they have the same problems (booking plane tickets at the very last, last minute, management - player communication, etc.) I would say that players are going to be leaving really fast, and a lot of people have.
On October 19 2012 22:44 Lysanias wrote: So this team already short on money ? I really hope that that is not the case and that there are other reasons for it.
They are not short on money. They set up some office somewhere in DE, Munich I think. I've heard from ex-apeX mangers that besides the office being really expensive, they're paying ~6k/month for internet and phones alone. The owner is really rich because of some family business or something. Anyways, I think the owner went into the business expecting to make some money out of it, as he was taking some percentage from their CoD teams winnings. This is kind of silly because some of the prize pools for CoD are really small (~3k for first place at the most recent EGL event). So they have money but he does not want to give it to players or something like that. The company is pretty whack and as long as they have the same problems (booking plane tickets at the very last, last minute, management - player communication, etc.) I would say that players are going to be leaving really fast, and a lot of people have.
I've pretty much heard the same story about this particular team; Basically they have money and resources, its just that they don't seem to give a damn, only reason is that they want to make a quick buck.
On October 19 2012 22:26 Skelith wrote: shady team is shady -.-
yea its common knowledge (at least in the german szene) that apex management sucks too bad that koreans are in such a bad spot (all-in on esports) that they take every straw a shame
This should be a much bigger deal than the SlayerS thing.
This really indicates a sad trend of these new teams arising out of nowhere, and then badly managing themselves and screwing over the players. It's really a shame that this is still so common, and shouldn't be allowed to happen. Players need to start being more aware and people need to start calling these people on their bullshit.
On October 19 2012 22:44 Lysanias wrote: So this team already short on money ? I really hope that that is not the case and that there are other reasons for it.
They are not short on money. They set up some office somewhere in DE, Munich I think. I've heard from ex-apeX mangers that besides the office being really expensive, they're paying ~6k/month for internet and phones alone. The owner is really rich because of some family business or something. Anyways, I think the owner went into the business expecting to make some money out of it, as he was taking some percentage from their CoD teams winnings. This is kind of silly because some of the prize pools for CoD are really small (~3k for first place at the most recent EGL event). So they have money but he does not want to give it to players or something like that. The company is pretty whack and as long as they have the same problems (booking plane tickets at the very last, last minute, management - player communication, etc.) I would say that players are going to be leaving really fast, and a lot of people have.
I've pretty much heard the same story about this particular team; Basically they have money and resources, its just that they don't seem to give a damn, only reason is that they want to make a quick buck.
at the same time you don't start a team to lose money
although I'm not condoning this teams practices
just saying imagine if you invested your personal money into it.. it must be stressful
but if I had money I wouldn't start a team lol I'm smarter than that
Not sure why players just "trust" organizations like this. If there is a contract in place, take legal action. If there was never a contract....you deserve all the shady shit happening.
There are dozens of cautionary tales littering SC2 (and eSports') history. New teams that promise much are usually too good to be true. Makes me appreciate the stalwarts of the scene that much more to be honest -- the solid, honest teams that make it work.
On October 20 2012 01:21 IPA wrote: Not sure why players just "trust" organizations like this. If there is a contract in place, take legal action. If there was never a contract....you deserve all the shady shit happening.
There are dozens of cautionary tales littering SC2 (and eSports') history. New teams that promise much are usually too good to be true. Makes me appreciate the stalwarts of the scene that much more to be honest -- the solid, honest teams that make it work.
Yeah, there really seems to be a premise of over-promise and under-deliver. apeX is an extremely wealthy team, their structure is much like that of Quantic. Incredibly wealthy owner starting a team on venture capital. Our team motto is pretty much the opposite of apeX and similar teams. Under promise and over deliver. That leaves you with players that are surprised/happy when you do something for them rather than you fulfilling their expectations. It leads to a much happier an closer team, although you may not immediately attract allstar 'hired guns'.
On October 19 2012 22:48 GunPaladin wrote: In my opinion this is strike one, I really hope this was just a fluke and that they'll be able to give the players the support they deserve.
Strike one? lol, if anyone takes Apex as a serious business after this they're simply kidding themselves. We've all heard the stories from former players of different games saying how Apex still owes them money, they wait until one day before the event to say "lol j/k, we're sending no one to DreamHack". Are they seriously trying to convince us that they didn't know a month ago that there was no way they could afford the plane tickets. Also the whole "can't update cause internet so bad in Manchester". Okay UK's internet is shoddy but they can't even go to a frikin Starbucks with a lap top and update a twitter account? Bullshit, seems like a smash and scam job to me.
On October 20 2012 01:21 IPA wrote: Not sure why players just "trust" organizations like this. If there is a contract in place, take legal action. If there was never a contract....you deserve all the shady shit happening.
There are dozens of cautionary tales littering SC2 (and eSports') history. New teams that promise much are usually too good to be true. Makes me appreciate the stalwarts of the scene that much more to be honest -- the solid, honest teams that make it work.
your post sounds pretty naive but i'll just asume you dont know any better
these players CANT get a different team, so they fall for the false promises of a foreign team they dont know. they are not getting payed teamless, so they join in the hopes that they get at least SOME money
From the previous history of this team, I am not really surprised that this happened. But we will see when they are going to another tournament since it is stated that the thing that has caused there trip will not affect there flights again.
On October 20 2012 03:00 xuanzue wrote: I know so few people care about those players, but those who care, can tell to the sponsors about that shady team
How about waiting for a goddamn official statement by the team or at least by the players before telling the sponsors again? You don't know anything about what is actually happening and you heard some people on TL say that apeX is shady and you immediately want to message sponsors? Man, just wait until things are cleared up and if it comes out that the team is at fault you can message the sponsors. But don't be so fast with your judgment... and don't immediately start this crap again please....
On October 20 2012 01:21 IPA wrote: Not sure why players just "trust" organizations like this. If there is a contract in place, take legal action. If there was never a contract....you deserve all the shady shit happening.
There are dozens of cautionary tales littering SC2 (and eSports') history. New teams that promise much are usually too good to be true. Makes me appreciate the stalwarts of the scene that much more to be honest -- the solid, honest teams that make it work.
your post sounds pretty naive but i'll just asume you dont know any better
these players CANT get a different team, so they fall for the false promises of a foreign team they dont know. they are not getting payed teamless, so they join in the hopes that they get at least SOME money
My post was not naive in the slightest. A player signing on to an unproven team and expecting money or paid travel -- THAT'S naive.
I don't think you understood what I was saying but I'll assume english isn't your first language.
On October 20 2012 01:21 IPA wrote: Not sure why players just "trust" organizations like this. If there is a contract in place, take legal action. If there was never a contract....you deserve all the shady shit happening.
There are dozens of cautionary tales littering SC2 (and eSports') history. New teams that promise much are usually too good to be true. Makes me appreciate the stalwarts of the scene that much more to be honest -- the solid, honest teams that make it work.
your post sounds pretty naive but i'll just asume you dont know any better
these players CANT get a different team, so they fall for the false promises of a foreign team they dont know. they are not getting payed teamless, so they join in the hopes that they get at least SOME money
My post was not naive in the slightest. A player signing on to an unproven team and expecting money or paid travel -- THAT'S naive.
I don't think you understood what I was saying but I'll assume english isn't your first language.
Actually he did understand what you meant. He recognizes that there are honest teams out there, but they're usually more elite. Thus, players like VINES, TOP, MorroW, etc. can't get in them without asking for an extremely low salary. However, suddenly an unknown team comes about and promises them a ridiculous salary and they just take it without researching. That's what he meant.
But I do agree that you're not naive in the slightest.
On October 20 2012 03:00 xuanzue wrote: I know so few people care about those players, but those who care, can tell to the sponsors about that shady team
How about waiting for a goddamn official statement by the team or at least by the players before telling the sponsors again? You don't know anything about what is actually happening and you heard some people on TL say that apeX is shady and you immediately want to message sponsors? Man, just wait until things are cleared up and if it comes out that the team is at fault you can message the sponsors. But don't be so fast with your judgment... and don't immediately start this crap again please....
I know the korean players will not be in DH Bucharest, and they are changing their twitter account.
it's enough evidence for me to conclude that apex is a scammer team. simply, remove players with only a day before DH, it shows incompetence at best cases. The fact that it has never explained what happened to the players demanding payment, is a way to accept the money they stole. and finally the pathetic excuse saying "I have no internet" removes all the good assumptions.
On October 19 2012 10:05 smOOthMayDie wrote: I feel as if it might have been a communication problem.
According to their facebook: "Sorry for the Lack of Updates, but its really hard to get Wi-Fi over here at EGL8, Manchester. :S All apeX Players and Teams could win their Matches so far, we´ll update you further as soon as we´re going to have Wi-Fi again!"
But this alone doesn't say much, it's not hard to go to a local internet cafe, or somewhere with accessible wifi. :/
... or get 3G contract or roaming for a week to stay in touch with fans... cant be too expensive
The origins of Apex way odd to me from the beginning. Formerly of OGS+Morrow, the announcement seemed more like a high profile clan than a professional team if that makes much sense.
Just when I thought I would get to see Top play again, this happens. Top macro was incredible and I was hoping he improved on the other areas for this tournament.
On October 20 2012 01:21 IPA wrote: Not sure why players just "trust" organizations like this. If there is a contract in place, take legal action. If there was never a contract....you deserve all the shady shit happening.
There are dozens of cautionary tales littering SC2 (and eSports') history. New teams that promise much are usually too good to be true. Makes me appreciate the stalwarts of the scene that much more to be honest -- the solid, honest teams that make it work.
Yeah, there really seems to be a premise of over-promise and under-deliver. apeX is an extremely wealthy team, their structure is much like that of Quantic. Incredibly wealthy owner starting a team on venture capital. Our team motto is pretty much the opposite of apeX and similar teams. Under promise and over deliver. That leaves you with players that are surprised/happy when you do something for them rather than you fulfilling their expectations. It leads to a much happier an closer team, although you may not immediately attract allstar 'hired guns'.
Drone is quite right on this. This has always been our philosophy and approach with Clarity Gaming and one of the main factors in why players have been consistently approaching us. There's a lot of sentiment in this thread that new teams aren't trustworthy and in this case I'd argue strongly that teams like apeX are the exception to the rule. There's simply no excuse for a team to pick up players, promise exorbitant salaries and consistent travel and then re-neg immediately after. You either have the capability, or you don't. If you don't, why on Earth would you promise otherwise?
On October 19 2012 10:05 smOOthMayDie wrote: I feel as if it might have been a communication problem.
According to their facebook: "Sorry for the Lack of Updates, but its really hard to get Wi-Fi over here at EGL8, Manchester. :S All apeX Players and Teams could win their Matches so far, we´ll update you further as soon as we´re going to have Wi-Fi again!"
But this alone doesn't say much, it's not hard to go to a local internet cafe, or somewhere with accessible wifi. :/
so apex is managed by homeless people? how can you run an esports team and not have access to the internet? What is the point in doing this? it cant be a scam because where is the money???? it just boggles my mind.
Well that's pretty disappointing but I guess from what people were saying in the announcement thread for the team it's not too surprising or unprecedented for this team
On October 19 2012 22:44 Lysanias wrote: So this team already short on money ? I really hope that that is not the case and that there are other reasons for it.
They are not short on money. They set up some office somewhere in DE, Munich I think. I've heard from ex-apeX mangers that besides the office being really expensive, they're paying ~6k/month for internet and phones alone. The owner is really rich because of some family business or something. Anyways, I think the owner went into the business expecting to make some money out of it, as he was taking some percentage from their CoD teams winnings. This is kind of silly because some of the prize pools for CoD are really small (~3k for first place at the most recent EGL event). So they have money but he does not want to give it to players or something like that. The company is pretty whack and as long as they have the same problems (booking plane tickets at the very last, last minute, management - player communication, etc.) I would say that players are going to be leaving really fast, and a lot of people have.
If they really are in Munich I can help them if they want to :o
On October 20 2012 03:00 xuanzue wrote: I know so few people care about those players, but those who care, can tell to the sponsors about that shady team
On October 20 2012 03:00 xuanzue wrote: I know so few people care about those players, but those who care, can tell to the sponsors about that shady team
How does it help the players if the sponsors pull their support?
Less available money usually does not translate into players getting sent to more international tournaments.
That's not what it's about. It's about the money landing where it is deserved. There are teams out there who would put it to better use, don't you think?
On October 20 2012 03:00 xuanzue wrote: I know so few people care about those players, but those who care, can tell to the sponsors about that shady team
How does it help the players if the sponsors pull their support?
Less available money usually does not translate into players getting sent to more international tournaments.
That's not what it's about. It's about the money landing where it is deserved. There are teams out there who would put it to better use, don't you think?
So you are making this decision almost before they have a shot here and contacting sponsors. Hurray. You are not helping.
May as well clarify something with all of you that you probably don't know.
apeX are a really prominent Console sponsor, that, are very well known to be EXTREMELY sketchy. Not booking flights or accom/Giving info very late for travel/Not paying out for events or money that they owe teams and just generally being really low. Usually they throw money at Amature Teams and go, "Here, we'll fund you to go abroad for an event!" and generally screw them over.
Just thought I'd shed some light on this situation.
I heard same thing from some ex-apex management. Also the ex-CoD apeX players (now OG) did not even get paid their salaries which are apparently ~$1000 ea.. Would not be surprised if all the Koreans have left the team already with MorroW soon to follow.
Unfortunately this was very predictable for anyone who has had previous experience with the organisation. I come from the console Call of Duty scene where apeX have been heavily involved for the past 18 months or so and almost every story I've read in here is true.
For a new scene like ours the money apeX started to throw around was something we needed, they have done so many good things within the scene such as bringing the first American teams to European events, sending Europeans over to MLG when they supported the title etc. Everything seemed pretty good within the organisation other than the odd logistical problem (players had flights booked in the wrong name, leading them to not be able to get their flights), however it soon became apparent the problems were much bigger then that. Players not being paid wages, flights not being booked, attendance to events not confirmed until last minute, all problems that have arose from apeX.
The team seems to be built on good intentions with the lack of anyone to actually fulfil the promises they make, as far as I am aware they owe both Strongside (from the Halo pro team Str8 Rippin) and Rambo (from Optic Gaming's CoD team) substantial sums of money as they both had to pay for their teams attendance to a European event earlier this year when apeX failed them.
Last weekend we had EGL8 in Manchester, England and yet again more issues arose. Firstly they had managed to book a flight for one of their team from America to Iceland, where he then had to fly from on his own money to get to the event. Then the European based team all travelled from England, except for their 4th player who was told to book his own flight and they would reimburse him (something he understandingly was not happy to do). They had a team turn up for either Gears of War or Halo console only for them to be told that apeX hadn't paid the entry fee, I also heard rumours there were problems with their hotel but I can't confirm that. Finally as you saw in the tweets screenshotted earlier, two of their content writers (one of which was a long time player for apeX) had their hotel cancelled when they went to check in and had to get their own once they had already arrived. All this from just one event.
There have been many issues before, respected figures within the European console community initially worked with or for apeX however they all left around the same time, choosing not to say why they no longer wanted to represent the organisation. As I said at the start, unfortunately apeX failing this team was predictable. I had hoped with them stepping into a more professional branch of esports they might take it more professionally but obviously that hasn't been the case.