IMO: Added:Metropolis,Frigid Pass Metropolis needs to come back to the map pool
Frigid Pass would need cross positions
Removed:Taldarim Altar,Shakuras Plateau Taldarim Altar is disliked by all races because: Zerg hate the rocks Protoss hate 4 gate vs 4 gate Terran hate the maps size
Sakuras Plateau is very large for the amount of bases outside the natural and the third that is not another natural is to open. What maps should be removed/added in your opinions?
Poll: If you could add a type of map to the pool,what would it be like?
Metropolis (307)
41%
A small map with a lot of expansions like Muspelhiem (234)
31%
A small map like Cloud Kingdom (55)
7%
A medium sized map (55)
7%
A large macro map like Taldarim Altar (50)
7%
A map with rocks at the third (23)
3%
a map that is has expansions layed out in a circle like Ohana (20)
3%
None (6)
1%
750 total votes
Your vote: If you could add a type of map to the pool,what would it be like?
(Vote): None (Vote): A large macro map like Taldarim Altar (Vote): A small map with a lot of expansions like Muspelhiem (Vote): a map that is has expansions layed out in a circle like Ohana (Vote): A small map like Cloud Kingdom (Vote): Metropolis (Vote): A medium sized map (Vote): A map with rocks at the third
Poll: What will Blizzard remove?
Taldarim Altar (273)
63%
Thay wont remove any map (59)
14%
Condemned Ridge (54)
12%
Shakuras Plateau (23)
5%
Antiga Shipyard (7)
2%
Entomned Valley (5)
1%
Ohana (5)
1%
Cloud Kingdom (5)
1%
Daybreak (5)
1%
436 total votes
Your vote: What will Blizzard remove?
(Vote): Taldarim Altar (Vote): Entomned Valley (Vote): Antiga Shipyard (Vote): Condemned Ridge (Vote): Ohana (Vote): Cloud Kingdom (Vote): Daybreak (Vote): Shakuras Plateau (Vote): Thay wont remove any map
Poll: What will Blizzard add?
A trash map of their own with rocks at the third T_T (286)
61%
Metropolis (98)
21%
A community/Mapmake team map (40)
9%
They wont add any maps (16)
3%
Muspelheim like maps (11)
2%
A small,unique map (8)
2%
No map (5)
1%
Remove all the maps and add new ones just to start over. (5)
1%
469 total votes
Your vote: What will Blizzard add?
(Vote): Muspelheim like maps (Vote): Metropolis (Vote): A trash map of their own with rocks at the third T_T (Vote): A small,unique map (Vote): A community/Mapmake team map (Vote): No map (Vote): Remove all the maps and add new ones just to start over. (Vote): They wont add any maps
They need to change the 2's, 3's and 4's maps up.. heck do FFA while they are at it.. one guy working for 8 hours could do that job -_- let the community design some..
On August 30 2012 15:45 graNite wrote: Maybe move the rocks on TDA to block the way from the natural to the third but not the third base position?
Shakuras is very good in my opinion, how is it large?
IMO it needs to be re disigned so there is a base in beetween close positions and make the expo that is close by air but far by ground that is open needs to be moved.The map could be so much better if it was easier to take a 4th base
On August 30 2012 15:48 mrtomjones wrote: They need to change the 2's, 3's and 4's maps up.. heck do FFA while they are at it.. one guy working for 8 hours could do that job -_- let the community design some..
OMG thats right,we do need team maps,we got a good 2v2 map but the one that doesnt have lava sucks so badly for zerg and is rush vs rush since its so bad.We need to change 3v3 and 4v4.
Tournaments refuse to update their map pools these days with anything new/decent so unlike past seasons, we can't just point to the tournaments for two or three new maps they could add to ladder. Most of them are already on ladder or they aren't very good/balanced.
But there are some good maps we could cycle in from the community, for sure. Just lately, both tournaments and blizzard are looking to each other for map updates.
On August 30 2012 15:52 Gamegene wrote: god no don't add metropolis. that map just produces really retarded games that end awkwardly since you can't properly kill someone.
Why is that?is the middle of the map badly disigned so its harder to engage easily?
i just want creative, new maps that don't fall into the format we've seen so far. and to keep rotating shit in. not to mention 2v2 maps that have been in the pool since launch (what the fuck?).
-shakuras plateau, tal'darim, antiga
shakuras sucks because everythings a choke and there are no counter attack paths. antiga sucks because you cant take a fourth and distances between expansions via air can be retarded. tal'darim sucks all around because, as OP stated, each race has a different reason for hating it--and its all legit.
i'd also remove entombed because it's a larger antiga, only with rocks blocking your third, compensated only by an easier-to-take 4th. we're left with like 2-3 maps that we end up playing over and over and over again (awful).
On August 30 2012 15:57 sam05396 wrote: condemed,tal darim, and shakuras need to go, and i agree with metropolis but i think frigid pass is pretty awful
Im ok with condemned,I totaly forgot Antiga which is a worst version of condemned ridge
no: Tal Darim, Shakuras... tal darim is too old, pvp is a pain... same as shakuras...its too old. Antiga i think could last 1 more season...
Dont add metropolis. before I liked it...but I feel like its kind of imba. A lot of the games turn out to macro games but I'm not sure if that's what everyone is looking for. There are a lot of better, newer maps that blizz can put in.
Blizz just needs to hire some mapmaking team to make new ladder maps each season to spice things up.
Also holy fuck we need more team maps, especially 3v3 and 4v4. How we still have almost the exact same 3v3/4v4 map pool that we did at release is mind boggling.
I mean I get that team games aren't the focus of competitive players, but a VAST majority of casual players ONLY play team games, so why do they get the shaft when it comes to maps? When honestly maps are not that hard to make. (good ones maybe, but it's not really hard to make a good 3v3/4v4 map, it's already inherently imbalanced so you don't have to freak out too much about terrain choices as you do when doing a 1v1)
On August 30 2012 16:03 Broodwurst wrote: add neutral depots
this a fucking 10123120931391230923912031 times.... can't be that hard to add those goddamni depots... but to be honest I have been waiting for those for like 2-3 seasons already? Guess they will never be implemented by blizz...
Just don't add metropolis, please don't do it. The new map blizz made is awful and needs to go, condemned ridge or whatever it is called. Tal Darim and Shakuras could go too, even if they are balanced they just don't have that flare to them anymore like new maps would.
That list of custom made maps that is on here somewhere had at least a few maps that could easily replace the 3 I mentioned.
Plz no big maps. Every season is getting bigger and bigger maps. Every game i play is a macro game now. People don't wanna sit back and play mothership vs brood lords every game... GIVE US SMALLER MAPS. 1 basing - 1basing is the most fun games for me. Actually takes micro and macro. Sick of 200/200 deathball games. We need smaller maps plz.
On August 30 2012 16:11 tranmillitary wrote: Plz no big maps. Every season is getting bigger and bigger maps. Every game i play is a macro game now. People don't wanna sit back and play mothership vs brood lords every game... GIVE US SMALLER MAPS. 1 basing - 1basing is the most fun games for me. Actually takes micro and macro. Sick of 200/200 deathball games. We need smaller maps plz.
I think we should have 4 maps of normal size,2 macro maps,and 3 small maps(like ohana or cloud and daybreak) The problem is that there is a new macro map almost every season.
Remove: Shakuras Plateau, Tal'darim Altar, Condemned Ridge, Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley Add: Muspelheim, Khaydaria, Frigid Pass, Abode, maybe metropolis but it's a bit boring sometimes
For the people QQing about map sizes increasing overall, this would actually be a net decrease I think.
Holy crap I added the poll 4 mins ago and its got a crap load of votes.Thanks everybody for your participation! I only added so that you could vote on one map to be removed because thats what blizz is gonna do.
On August 30 2012 16:18 -orb- wrote: I'd personally like to see the following:
Remove: Shakuras Plateau, Tal'darim Altar, Condemned Ridge, Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley Add: Muspelheim, Khaydaria, Frigid Pass, Abode, maybe metropolis but it's a bit boring sometimes
For the people QQing about map sizes increasing overall, this would actually be a net decrease I think.
GREAT post,I realy like Frigid and Muspelhiem,but its a really big change and those are sespificly the maps I hate the most is what you posted what should be removed.
On August 30 2012 15:57 sam05396 wrote: condemed,tal darim, and shakuras need to go, and i agree with metropolis but i think frigid pass is pretty awful
Im ok with condemned,I totaly forgot Antiga which is a worst version of condemned ridge
condemned is too big, it's a nightmare to scout on it because of the massive distances. if it has to stay, they need to disable close spawns or something to make it easier to scout.
if I had a penny for all the times I've been cheesed on that map because my OL couldn't get there in time to scout at 6min vT, I would buy fucking Blizzard and change it myself.
I want to say Shakuras Plateau, as it's by far the worst map I don't have vetoed. If better maps don't get added, maybe they can add +90 points for any race that beats terrran (minus a tvt) on Shakuras. Then again, not sure if that would even be fair. Prob should be more points.
I love Shakuras and Taldarim. As a Terran, it really isnt bad and the Zerg third is delayed a lot by the rocks so half the times I'm expecting either a 2 base roach baneling allin or mutalisk opening. Predictability is good for a Terran...
Taldarim adn Condomed ridge... both maps arent in any tournaments anymore and they arent worthy of being in the map pool cause theya re horrible...... -.-;
On August 30 2012 16:43 Diabulus wrote: Taldarim adn Condomed ridge... both maps arent in any tournaments anymore and they arent worthy of being in the map pool cause theya re horrible...... -.-;
condemmed, because it's a retarded, bigass, useless map, that doesn't get used by tournies. stop trying to make your own maps blizz and just take what the community provides.
TDA, awful map and it's frustrating that tournaments still use that map as well. I also think Shakuras and Antiga should be on their way out, at least in the next couple of seasons. Hopefully, Metropolis comes back too.
Taldarim Altar, Condemned Ridge, Shakuras Plateau and Antiga Shipyard would be my votes. I really hate those maps and I would prefer never to play on them again.
Neutral supply depos are needed too. If I get cannon or bunker rushed again ill go insane id say over my time playing this game ive lost 100 games from no talent fools who do that.
Maps id like to see Whirlwind, Muspelheim and Metropolis other than them I don't know.
Blizzard is fairly slow about replacing maps, so by now things have caught up to them and they're stuck with maps over a year old that people don't want to play on anymore. Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau simply have to go.
On August 30 2012 16:18 -orb- wrote: I'd personally like to see the following:
Remove: Shakuras Plateau, Tal'darim Altar, Condemned Ridge, Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley Add: Muspelheim, Khaydaria, Frigid Pass, Abode, maybe metropolis but it's a bit boring sometimes
For the people QQing about map sizes increasing overall, this would actually be a net decrease I think.
I havnt seen much talk about entombed valley i cant stand that map its probably just me though its still in map pools for tourneys i guess. I have veto'd TDA, Antiga and entombed wouldnt mind seeing them go, but any new maps are always fun to try out and a change up would be nice.
Now Im more convinced about removing condemned or making it no close positions because I couldnt scout a double stargate fast enough and I got caught by ray/phoenix.I was doing almost as well in the graph until the hold
Metropolis is horrifyingly bland. I hope it never comes back.
TDA is nice because it's something different. I don't really like Condemned Ridge, and I simply don't have the patience to learn the new map when it'll never be tournament-relevant, so I'd like it gone.
Would it really be that expensive for Blizzard to just hire one of the better map makers as some sort of contractor? They could even pay him per map design or something. Clearly a lot of their maps are just poorly thought out/or boring or imba.
I'd really like to see Mulspelheim, it has produced really good games in GSTL, and it's a bit smaller than current maps, so it would be quite refreshing
Antiga would be fine if they forced cross positions. It's not my favourite of the maps in the pool but it's better than some of the others.
I'd like to see Condemned Ridge, Tal Darim and Shakuras go. TD and Shak are old and not really that interesting anymore. Condemned Ridge I just don't like for some reason.
Add -GSL Whirlwind -GSL Atlantis Spaceship - not my first choice, but tournament maps belong in the map pool. -Metropolis - It's imbalanced, but it's still used in major tournaments and it won that community poll. Blizzard never bothered fixing the graphics bug that occurs on Blizzard's Metropolis LE.
Imagine being able to ladder on the latest GSL maps, rather than hoping blizzard replaces one of their terrible maps with some modified version of an incredibly imbalanced 9 month old GSL map.
Modify •Antiga Shipyard (cross spawn only, no gold) •Entombed Valley (cross and vertical spawns only) Add neutral depots to all maps
A map like Outsider that has a circular base heavy layout but is very harass oriented. Love how it allowed completely different ways to play the map depending on which expansions were taken. This suggestion should not be mistaken for Blizzard's atrocious original maps that could only be played a few specific ways depending on spawns.
I'd hope Blizzard completely switch it up, removing like 4/5 maps (Antiga Condemed Ridge Entombed Valley Shakuras and TDA) and giving up 1 of theirs, 2 TL / map making community maps, and 2 GSL.
I veto TDA and shakuras. I think Shakuras is a pretty decent map, but I have had enough of it.
It's hard to think of many good replacements. I quite like Muspelheim as a map, and would not object to metropolis either. Other than that, I'm not really sure.
I really don't like Tal'darim and this Condemned Ridge stupidly kinda thingy map :S
I personally really enjoy watching games on Antiga (forced cross) and I'd like to see it changed into that by blizz on ladder. If it's forced cross I also like to play on it.
I personally don't have anything against Shakuras, but I can see why people want it out and it's outdated aswell.
Getting rid of Taldarim and Condemned would be nice, at the moment I just have them both vetoed and I would quite like to get my vetoes back and to play some new maps.
On August 30 2012 18:46 Herect wrote: Why all the hate about Comdemned? I can't see why people hate so much this map...
Zerg hate it because of hard scouting. Terran hate it because of the size and. Protoss hate it because 4 gates are a little good here and it ends up to be Collosus war PvP since it has a lot of chokes
have you noticed that the most hated maps in the pool are big so terran dont like them,Have something thatt is bad for zerg like 3rd rock block or hard scouting,and protoss hate it because they have 1 early game choice and 1 late game choice in PvP which is: + Show Spoiler +
We are nearly there in terms of maps on the ladder and tournament maps. If Metro gets added back in for Tal Darim or Condemed Ridge, the ladder will be complete.
I think they should remove both TalDarim and Condemed Ridge though, and add Metro of course, and also add a new map, maybe Blizz will get a map right xD Has to happen one day.
On August 30 2012 15:46 blade55555 wrote: Removed: antiga/cloud/shakuras/taldarim are 4 maps that need to go.
Honestly all maps should just be replaced with GSL maps and I would be a happy camper.
I've wanted ladder to be GSL maps since I first watched GSL. I actually got mad when I realized it wasn't so. I mean who told blizzard they could take a dump on my ability to fantasize about being pro.
On August 30 2012 18:46 Herect wrote: Why all the hate about Comdemned? I can't see why people hate so much this map...
Zerg hate it because of hard scouting. Terran hate it because of the size and. Protoss hate it because 4 gates are a little good here and it ends up to be Collosus war PvP since it has a lot of chokes
have you noticed that the most hated maps in the pool are big so terran dont like them,Have something thatt is bad for zerg like 3rd rock block or hard scouting,and protoss hate it because they have 1 early game choice and 1 late game choice in PvP which is: + Show Spoiler +
4 gate vs 4 gate then collosus vs collosus
colossus not collosus...... I feel like more people spell it wrong than correct
also yea this map is terrible. other maps that should be removed in my opinion are Taldarim and Shakuras
We should keep Shakuras, it's the only terran favor map and there are always amazing games on it. Bigger maps means more imbalances. Remove the extra bigs maps and add more middle sizes ones, like Ohana. I don't want to come back in the early 2011 with map like Xel Naga or Step of War but FFS, early aggression is a part of the game, and it's even a vital point in TvP & TvZ. But now with map like Condamned Rigde and WhirlWind, it's almost impossible to do early pressure for terrans, and the game becomes boring lategame without any fight before 14min.
I don't want Metropolis back in the ladder pool. It's an interesting map and has not been completely figured out (I think a lot of players falter on multitasking and long-term planning in the later stages of that map), but it still leads to so many boring, passive games. I think it's better to give Muspelheim and Whirlwind a chance.
On August 30 2012 20:07 Faust852 wrote: We should keep Shakuras, it's the only terran favor map and there are always amazing games on it. Bigger maps means more imbalances. Remove the extra bigs maps and add more middle sizes ones, like Ohana. I don't want to come back in the early 2011 with map like Xel Naga or Step of War but FFS, early aggression is a part of the game, and it's even a vital point in TvP & TvZ. But now with map like Condamned Rigde and WhirlWind, it's almost impossible to do early pressure for terrans, and the game becomes boring lategame without any fight before 14min.
Ohana is a small map,not medium sized.Medium sized Is like Scrap station or Metalopis Small=Ohana,Cloud kingdom Medium=Metalopis,Scrap Station Large=Metropolis,Shakuras Plateau Macro Large=Entomned Valley,Taldarim Altar
On August 30 2012 20:32 KapsyL wrote: Tal darim still exists? Its been on my veto since season 4 or something :S Ah well. I would like to see Frigid Pass cross position though.
lol,Frigid pass is Condemned Ridge and TDA fused in a good way. but please make Fridgid Pass Cross spawn only
I want Antiga, Shakuras, Taldarim, Entombed to go. Those maps are too old, everything got figured out on those maps. We need some new stuff with new interesting features.
And I want some of these maps added in (after some balance testing of course): ESV Anniversary Maps
Edit: Damnit, Metropolis is hugely imbalanced Oo TLPD Metropolis
I don't understand the Antiga Shipyard hate. The winrates for Antiga are still closer to being balanced than maps that a lot of people advocate for such as Metropolis. But I agree with getting rid of Shakuras Plateau and Tal'Darim. Those maps have just been around forever.
On August 30 2012 21:20 The Final Boss wrote: I don't understand the Antiga Shipyard hate. The winrates for Antiga are still closer to being balanced than maps that a lot of people advocate for such as Metropolis. But I agree with getting rid of Shakuras Plateau and Tal'Darim. Those maps have just been around forever.
In Antiga no race (especialy T/P)you cant take a 4th without it being a super risky hidden expo I said especialy T/P because their less mobile.
On August 30 2012 20:07 Faust852 wrote: We should keep Shakuras, it's the only terran favor map and there are always amazing games on it. Bigger maps means more imbalances. Remove the extra bigs maps and add more middle sizes ones, like Ohana. I don't want to come back in the early 2011 with map like Xel Naga or Step of War but FFS, early aggression is a part of the game, and it's even a vital point in TvP & TvZ. But now with map like Condamned Rigde and WhirlWind, it's almost impossible to do early pressure for terrans, and the game becomes boring lategame without any fight before 14min.
Agreed. Not neccessarily about keeping Shakuras, but yeh the maps are getting bigger and bigger which has lead to a lot of stale games with 15 min no rush. Bigger is definitely not better imo, always need a good mix of map sizes.
On August 31 2012 00:45 IronManSC wrote: I would love to see Khaydaria added.... but that's just me.
Of course they might make the center expos full... But that wouldn't hurt Khaydaria too much imo.
As far as ESV maps with only 8m2g bases... We have what? Muspelheim, Frigid Pass, Colo3 and Odd-Eye? Bloody ridge if we can get a workaround for the creep tumor.
I'd be good with Odd-Eye or Muspelheim, though. They seem fit for ladder.
Remove TDA. Don't care what map they add as long as it doesn't have 4 spawns because I'm sick of retarded last scouting on 9 and dying/being way behind vs silly shit.
tda and shak should both go, both have issues for all the races. Blizzard need to start adding tournament maps to the ladder more, instead of their own "let's put ricks EVERYWHERE" maps
I could see Shakuras or Tal'darim being removed from the pool just because they are the oldest maps left in it right now. Hopefully they add some ESV maps those are soo fun looking
Although something tells me the gold mineral block on Prophets would turn into rocks as well as the half bases on each map would probably turn into full ones.
On August 31 2012 01:02 SidianTheBard wrote: So after browsing our very own Team Liquid's Custom Map Thread I've found two maps that are both really well done and should get added to Ladder.
Although something tells me the gold mineral block on Prophets would turn into rocks as well as the half bases on each map would probably turn into full ones.
You should say those are your maps so everyone knows you're biased.
On August 31 2012 00:45 IronManSC wrote: I would love to see Khaydaria added.... but that's just me.
Of course they might make the center expos full... But that wouldn't hurt Khaydaria too much imo.
As far as ESV maps with only 8m2g bases... We have what? Muspelheim, Frigid Pass, Colo3 and Odd-Eye? Bloody ridge if we can get a workaround for the creep tumor.
I'd be good with Odd-Eye or Muspelheim, though. They seem fit for ladder.
Khaydaria would work for several reasons:
1) It's rotational, and every spawn is enabled 2) There are interesting uses for the rocks
But I agree that they would probably change the center bases to full bases. The only beef I have with that move is that the center pods are not THAT big, so it might look awkward seeing 8m2g on them (i.e. minerals and gas geysers overhanging the ramps etc) But who knows...
On August 31 2012 00:45 IronManSC wrote: I would love to see Khaydaria added.... but that's just me.
Of course they might make the center expos full... But that wouldn't hurt Khaydaria too much imo.
As far as ESV maps with only 8m2g bases... We have what? Muspelheim, Frigid Pass, Colo3 and Odd-Eye? Bloody ridge if we can get a workaround for the creep tumor.
I'd be good with Odd-Eye or Muspelheim, though. They seem fit for ladder.
Khaydaria would work for several reasons:
1) It's rotational, and every spawn is enabled 2) There are interesting uses for the rocks
But I agree that they would probably change the center bases to full bases. The only beef I have with that move is that the center pods are not THAT big, so it might look awkward seeing 8m2g on them (i.e. minerals and gas geysers overhanging the ramps etc) But who knows...
Muspelheim and Frigid Pass are good though.
Yes, I agree. I think Khaydaria and Abode would both be good for ladder, so long as changing the bases doesn't ruin them. I don't know that it would though, for either. It could be a bit awkward if there's not enough space, though.
On August 30 2012 16:06 genius_man16 wrote: Blizz just needs to hire some mapmaking team to make new ladder maps each season to spice things up.
Also holy fuck we need more team maps, especially 3v3 and 4v4. How we still have almost the exact same 3v3/4v4 map pool that we did at release is mind boggling.
I mean I get that team games aren't the focus of competitive players, but a VAST majority of casual players ONLY play team games, so why do they get the shaft when it comes to maps? When honestly maps are not that hard to make. (good ones maybe, but it's not really hard to make a good 3v3/4v4 map, it's already inherently imbalanced so you don't have to freak out too much about terrain choices as you do when doing a 1v1)
^^ THIS, so much ! If Blizz wants to have people keep playing this game, they shouldn't ignore the big group of people (only) playing team games (including me & my friends). It's so horribly annoying that all the changes done to the 1v1 maps to level the balance between races (by design, or by the consequent patches introduced since the start) are not taken into account for the team maps !
They will remove Tal'Darim Altar and replace it with another map of similar map size. They seem to like the diversity of map sizes and by removing the largest map in the game, they may try to replace it with another large-scale map.
They will remove Shakuras Plateau simply because of its age in the map pool and replace it with a map of their own that will probably be average at best. If they keep Shakuras Plateau then they will remove Condemned Ridge just due to it's poor reception from nearly every player.
EDIT: I actually wouldn't mind them scaling down the maps a bit to encourage some non-fast expand builds. I'm not talking about Steppes of War small, but maybe a map that will encourage a 1-base timing attack. Basically all 1-base timings are gone now that the maps are so damn big.
On August 31 2012 01:12 Mairou wrote: I would like to see Antiga Shipyard to be forced cross spawn only.
This. The abuse you can recieve for getting unfavourable spawns on that map is significant enough to warrant it being forced cross spawns imo. The way a player can open up the opponents third as it's on their attack path anyway is just stupid.
It should also be illegal to roll TDA for pvp. Even though it was veto'd I got it the other day. Wasn't happy.
I would really love to have Metropolis back on the map pool. Maybe they should add in Whirlwind to the map pool as well, that map has been showing some promise as a macro map in the GSL. It also has created some awesome macro games such as DRG vs Ryung on the GSL.
TDA and Condemned Ridge really really has to go. TDA is outdated, there are many flaws in that map such as the rocks at the third, PvP being a 4gate fest since you don't have a "ramp" leading to your main and also that the fourth is pretty hard to take in that map .
Condemned Ridge...I just hate that map for its obscure size. I vetoed it since I played my first game on that map.
I think they should redesign Shakuras plateau, I like the map where you can go half map-half map, but it has its problems such as the straight pushing line is just bad for TvP, TvT mech and TvZ.
On August 31 2012 01:02 SidianTheBard wrote: So after browsing our very own Team Liquid's Custom Map Thread I've found two maps that are both really well done and should get added to Ladder.
Although something tells me the gold mineral block on Prophets would turn into rocks as well as the half bases on each map would probably turn into full ones.
Ultrix prime,Muspelhiem and Metropolis need to be added. Ultrix prime is such a great map. IMO more ESV maps need to be added
Tal'Darim altar should definitely get the ax, it doesn't produce good games, has a blocked third, and it isn't even visually appealing in its design imo.
I would like to see more ESV/GSL and a complete phasing out of this idea that Blizzard should make the maps. I don't see why Blizzard spends money doing work that the community does better, all at no cost to Blizz.
Also I'm a 1v1 player but sometimes I run 2s or 3s with my friends, but the state of the team map pool is just atrocious. I think they're right to prioritize 1v1, but again the SC2 community would probably produce great team maps in no time if Blizzard sponsored some tournament or other promotion.
At this point with no decent ladder maps being introduced since Daybreak/Metropolis, the pool is back to being pretty mediocre. The game has changed so much since then, hell even just last night Rotterdam commented on NASL KOTH that he felt everyone was getting tired of Daybreak now that it's figured out. And that's one of the better maps in the map pool, let alone the maps like Shakuras, Tal'Darim, and Antiga that are in the pool. We could really use another TLMC to give exposure to new maps. Otherwise I'm unsure what maps Blizzard would possibly add other than ones like "Condemned Ridge", which aren't completely terrible (though not fun to play PvZ on IMO) but don't add anything to the game.
Only maps I would Keep are Daybreak, loud Kingdom and Ohana tbh Id like to see Khaydaria, Muspelheim and Whirlwind added along with a smaller 1v1 map to encourage more aggressive and micro based play as at the moment their are too many large macro maps (at least im my opinion). Something like a more balanced Xelnaga or Steps of War to add a bit more variety into play.
Cross taldarim is just bullshit if your against zerg. Definetly veto that. I didnt even know it was still in the map pool lol. Shakuras has to go as well. Outdated as hell. I feel bad for the zergs that have to deal with bunker rushes too cause its just such an easy win.
I agree with all the polls. Tal'Darim makes me sad face, Condemned is ZvZ central and Shakuras is not very fun. The other maps, however, are GREAT except for horizontal Entombed Valley (GRUUUUUUUU...). I love the third poll.. If Blizzard adds another map with rocks at the third I will definitely get angry.. again. EDIT: Oh yeah, Antiga needs to be cross only. Oh my gosh. ZvP is hell enough already on that map.
I hope Blizzard or someone could adjust Antiga Shipyard so that it was a two player map. It has a likeable design aspect up to three bases, but after that it's just awful with one major open space attack path, and near impossibility of securing a fourth. At least I hope Blizzard puts cross-spawn only on AS.
TDA and Condemned should go. TDA feels like a dinosaur, Condemned feels like it's Blizzard-style balanced because it's huge.
Some cool map by ESV or the community should come.
I actually hope for a relatively 2-player small map so that it forces a different style than the current metagame theme of "macro baby macro!" (Slightly smaller than Antiga, larger than Steppes of War).
Dear god, no Metropolis or Atlantis please. Tal'Darim definitely needs to go, along with either Condemned or Shakuras. Shakuras is old and Condemned is horrible.
On August 31 2012 01:12 Mairou wrote: I would like to see Antiga Shipyard to be forced cross spawn only.
This. The abuse you can recieve for getting unfavourable spawns on that map is significant enough to warrant it being forced cross spawns imo. The way a player can open up the opponents third as it's on their attack patch anyway is just stupid.
It should also be illegal to roll TDA for pvp. Even though it was veto'd I got it the other day. Wasn't happy.
This x4. I have Antiga veto'd just because close by air is so dumb.
Remove: 1. Condemned Ridge Not used by any pro or even semi-pro tournament. It's a terrible map and I don't like it. 2. Tal'Darim Alter Rocks at the third and its kinda old. The main entrance is poor and the natural can be very easily sieged. 3. Antiga Shipyard It's still a decent tournament map but Blizzard either needs to force cross spawns or get rid of it. Spawning close air or close ground on Antiga makes the third extremely hard to defend for an unlucky player.
I like Taldarim Altar, simply because each and all the races, and for all the matchups - there is something to hate. It is equal in that regard. IMO, that makes it a fair map.
Antiga is just a crap map though - all the races have a hard time with it - it doesn't lend itself to good 4 and 5 base games - it's a map you choose for short games.
Tal'darim Altar is bad. Shakuras isn't even balanced, why is this in the map pool? Entombed close position is WTF imbalanced, please do something. An argument could be made against Zerg in cross position. Antigua is really borderline. Condemned Ridge hasn't been there very long so idk, but many don't like it.
Overall a TERRIBLE map pool, hope it changes a lot.
I guess I'm unusual but I mostly like TDA. I agree it has to go because of PvP but I think it could be used as a basis for a new similar map that a) has a ramp in the main and b) is cross only. As for destructible rocks at the third I'm cool with keeping that. why? because it's a variation on the map design that forces different builds/styles so people can't do one build fits all plays. But then hey! maybe everyone loves 3 base before gas into roach timing every PvZ.
On August 31 2012 06:17 guoguo wrote: I want them to add TPW Breaking Point. The sickest map released to date and the map that the sc2 community deserves.
As long as there are a few good maps, i think it's gunna be ok. They are allowed 3 retarded maps because we have 3 veto's right? Ive had daybreak, tal darim, and condemned veto'ed since their inclusion in the map pool, and therefore I am not upset because I dont have to play on them
As for changes, I'd like to see more destructible rocks at close 3rd base locations. I am sick of zerg taking free 3rd bases at will with no risk involved. If there were rocks, they would at least have to make units to kill those rocks and not over-drone with no consequences.
I'd like to see the removal of Gold Minerals. In some match ups it is retardedly imbalanced. In PvZ, zerg can take the gold base and there is nothing protoss can do to stop them. In any match up with terran, they can put turrets and a planetary and drop mules. Imbalanced and unfair.
I dont understand this hatred for shakuras. I thought people used to like that map? It's still my favorite map of anything that has been on the ladder thus far. IMO it's a perfectly balanced map, especially if it is cross spawns.
Speaking of cross spawns, i'd like to see cross spawns forced on all 4 player maps. I've lost to 6 pools in the past, and just because i scouted them last, I lost the game because there was nothing I could do to prepare.
Oh man, I forgot about Frigid Pass. I loved watching the games on it on the ESV weekly. I hope it, or some of the ESV maps make an appearance both on ladder and in some major tournaments, because I just love the work their makers put out.
On August 31 2012 07:53 GolemMadness wrote: I'd like to see some new maps. Especially for team games. Have they EVER changed those maps?
There is a good reason for this. The game is largely balanced with 1v1 maps in mind, and competitive players need balanced ladder maps to practice on in order to, not only justify themselves as competitive players, entertain viewers which encourges people to play more in general.
The game would be better off if multiplayer was completely ignored by blizzard, and controlled by community map makers. I want blizzard's effort to go towards improving the game, not making new maps for multiplayer, and I feel that it will be a more successful game overall for everyone.
why cant there just be one blood bath - just add in an extra veto power and i literally think 50% of people on ladder would love it. If i had time to retexture my old one and widen the middle a few hexes it would be all set bitterjungle map design + Show Spoiler +
- its actually pretty balanced and is my third map redesigned for a sc2 bloodbath. (the original bw doesn't work since its too small (even with the advanced 64x64 conversion.)) / plus the entrance/minerals dont translate as well as mine
What's with all this whining about community maps? Don't you guys know that Tal'Darim IS a community map? Just because it has destructible rocks at the third doesn't mean it's a Blizzard map.
The hatred for Shakuras and Antiga comes almost purely from zerg players who hate the idea of having a map where Terran can punish them for being greedy :p That's why both of them should stay.
I think all of the maps are pretty stale and un-interesting now. I think it would be best if they removed half of the pool just to keep things interesting. Bring back Metropolis.
On August 31 2012 06:17 guoguo wrote: I want them to add TPW Breaking Point. The sickest map released to date and the map that the sc2 community deserves.
On August 31 2012 08:09 Evangelist wrote: What's with all this whining about community maps? Don't you guys know that Tal'Darim IS a community map? Just because it has destructible rocks at the third doesn't mean it's a Blizzard map.
The hatred for Shakuras and Antiga comes almost purely from zerg players who hate the idea of having a map where Terran can punish them for being greedy :p That's why both of them should stay.
It was,it was also the only macro map in the pool,it had no rocks,and zerg was the most up race and terran was the op race so it seemed completely balanced since it was so big.It was good until blizzard kicked in.
On August 31 2012 06:17 guoguo wrote: I want them to add TPW Breaking Point. The sickest map released to date and the map that the sc2 community deserves.
I hope they kick out taldarim, I have vetoed this map for about 8 months now. I'm hoping for some GSL maps, because the new ones actually look quite exciting.
- Tal Darim is awful in pretty much all matchups, the siege-abusable natural and the wide ramps provide for imbalanced gameplay. Rocks on 3rd are bad for zerg.
- Shakuras just feels old and is very abusable as well, especially for terran because there are a lot of cliffs for tanks, drops and reapers.
On August 30 2012 15:59 lichter wrote: I just want new maps with different tile sets. Get rid of the old maps. Map balance hardly matters below masters and maybe GM anyway.
You're kinda wrong on that I think, even if players don't know how to make use of certain map elements, they could still take advantage of it unconsciously. Like easy third on entombed valley for terran. It's quite easy to see that you can defend both entrances (to both natural and third) with ease. So I'd say maps also matter for lower level of play.
Add a smaller sized map that allows players to fight earlier in the game WHILE going into a macro game. These massive, no rush 50 minutes sized maps are boring.
Tal'darim altar and shakuras plateau are very old and outdated maps. I'm expecting to have metropolis back because blizzard promised to return it in a future season.
On August 31 2012 19:32 AnomalySC2 wrote: Add a smaller sized map that allows players to fight earlier in the game WHILE going into a macro game. These massive, no rush 50 minutes sized maps are boring.
Daybreak is such a map.
On August 31 2012 19:35 Adonminus wrote: Tal'darim altar and shakuras plateau are very old and outdated maps. I'm expecting to have metropolis back because blizzard promised to return it in a future season.
Oh wait: it's stacked against Terran so it doesn't matter.
it makes a lot of sense too. only 28% of the ladder above master is terran, so why should we have, as a minority, a say in what maps are added into the mappool.
On August 31 2012 19:32 AnomalySC2 wrote: Add a smaller sized map that allows players to fight earlier in the game WHILE going into a macro game. These massive, no rush 50 minutes sized maps are boring.
On August 31 2012 19:35 Adonminus wrote: Tal'darim altar and shakuras plateau are very old and outdated maps. I'm expecting to have metropolis back because blizzard promised to return it in a future season.
Metalopolis you mean?
Add more then. And daybreak is quite large actually.
Don't forget that both Entombed and Antiga were Blizzard maps. Stop saying blizzard makes trash maps, some of their's were good, while others... not so.
On August 31 2012 19:32 AnomalySC2 wrote: Add a smaller sized map that allows players to fight earlier in the game WHILE going into a macro game. These massive, no rush 50 minutes sized maps are boring.
On August 31 2012 19:35 Adonminus wrote: Tal'darim altar and shakuras plateau are very old and outdated maps. I'm expecting to have metropolis back because blizzard promised to return it in a future season.
How is Metropolis at the top of this poll. I don't think there has been a map in SCII yet that makes such boring 40 minute sit on your side of the map games as that map.
Tal'Darim should go and Metropolis should be added.
But the most important thing by far would be to add this neutral supply depot at the bottom of the ramp. or even if it does "confuse" bronze players or so like blizzard once stated, they could just edit the build grid so that you can't build there. No noob player would notice it and everyone on a fairly high level would be happy, except some Terrans and Protosses which can't get any undeservered wins anymore.
Oh wait: it's stacked against Terran so it doesn't matter.
it makes a lot of sense too. only 28% of the ladder above master is terran, so why should we have, as a minority, a say in what maps are added into the mappool.
...thats actually not that far off the "even" value of 33% if you just take P/T/Z. And its above average if you include random. >_>
Anyway TDA HAS to go. Seriously. I used to actually like playing on it as well but these days for Protoss its an auto-veto because of PvP on it, its absolutely massive so its bad for Terran attacks and it has rocks right on the 3rd for Zergs to get angry about. It seems almost designed to have bad aspects for every race.
I'd actually like to see Daybreak gone. I know it probably won't happen but I'm really just not a fan at all. Can't quite pin why, I think its something to do with the fact theres no real chokepoint into the natural expansion. I've grown to dislike it so much I actually been vetoing it the past week or so.
As for what to bring in...I take it Calm Before the Storm is out of the question? >_> Metropolis would be nice.
On August 31 2012 06:17 guoguo wrote: I want them to add TPW Breaking Point. The sickest map released to date and the map that the sc2 community deserves.
Please, for the love of third bases for protoss, remove Shakuras already. Also, there need to be more big maps that allow for an air transition in both TvZ and PvZ to combat BL/infestor. I would love to see Whirlwind in the map pool for example.
I'd really like to see the arguments from the guys voting Metropolis in the poll, other that 'It's played in tournaments".
The map has imbalanced winrates and creates boring turtle games, and there are other community-made maps that are so much better, I just can't see why you would add Metropolis into the pool.
I would quite like to see metropolis added back in to the map pool or a smaller map where terran cheese is better so armies don't have to travel ages allowing protoss / zerg to prepare, a smaller map in the pool would mean that we would see different styles of play more and is something that wouldn't hurt the game instead of seeing all maps get bigger like they are now.
On August 31 2012 23:07 BobMcJohnson wrote: I'd really like to see the arguments from the guys voting Metropolis in the poll, other that 'It's played in tournaments".
The map has imbalanced winrates and creates boring turtle games, and there are other community-made maps that are so much better, I just can't see why you would add Metropolis into the pool.
It's favored for zerg, so as a zerg why would you not vote for it. Easy games. Every race would vote for a map where they're favored.
TDA seems like the most obvious choice. I find all of the comments about Blizzard and destructible rocks pretty funny. Blizzard didn't "invent" them they stole the idea from BW maps.
TDA, it's not that good of a map although it's kind of cool that on TDA you can see some good openers that you can't on other maps, but then again, PvP sucks so bad that I don't even play it.
Shakuras: I really like Shakuras and always have, but I think it will be removed simply because it's been in the pool too long.
Condemned Ridge is no good but will likely stay since the other big map will go.
Uh, by the time Starcraft 2 came out most maps had stacked temples blocking alternative openings to naturals or expos. The last map that had crysalis or temples or destructible objects blocking an expo that I can remember being in common usage was in like 2007.
Blizzard went full Monty Hall with destructible rocks. So maybe they took lessons from the bw map making community but it was definitely "Map Making for Dummies" and not a college course.
Anyway get rid of TDA, Shakuras and Condemned. The first two are ancient. TDA is Blizzards abominable copy of the GSL map and it can be forgotten forever. Shakuras is hellishly old, being one of the oldest maps, and is so figured out that between equal players it comes down to who will make the first mistake. Perhaps Blizzard has forgotten this. All maps have a shelf life that expires when the majority of players understand everything about it and there is no excitement or 'new map smell' to it.
Finally, Condemned is just a personally dislike and I want to see it go.
I cannot believe TDA is voted that poorly. Really no one likes this map? ive been an RTS player for a long time and TDA has a lot of good elements about it that make it different than other macro maps
1. natural expo is difficult to hold vs tank pushes, warpgate all ins and speedling aggression in the early game. unlike most maps, TDA has a difficult to secure early first expansion (unless your opponent is standard). this map and antiga are probably the only maps where you will consistently see high masters/gm zergs getting ling speed before their 3rd hatch 9/10 times. antiga is generally hated (for good reason) because 4th bases are difficult to take on that map. however, with tal darim, despite it's "friendliness" to early aggression, macro games are very playable. in a split map scenario this is one of the most epic maps you can possibly play on. in order to take base 4, 5, 6, and 7, you must control at least two watchtowers vs good players. if youre terran this means scattering bunkers/turrets around this area and turreting up your main.
2. this map consistently produces the best terran vs terran games. not only do most games start with gasfirst or 13g aggression (koreans have historically take gas on taldarim very quickly) , there is viability in early game tank pushes that are NOT all in. so you can go up, siege their geyser, kill it, then retreat and have a small gas lead. After the early game stages, 4 watchtowers must be controlled. there is not THAT much area to cover with turrets, which is a very nice thing about the main base on this map. in the mid game, this map has enough room for every terran style to be viable. i'm sure you mechfags out there hate this map, but if you're playing mech on tal darim or antiga youre doing it wrong. tank lines are VERY hard to set up on this map. there is constnat opportunity for counter attacking and harassment, as well as maneuvering. you can send a drop out, then break the side of his tank line on the weakside. on tal darim there is enough room for this. compared to a "modern" macro map like daybreak or cloud kingdom, these opportunities just don't exist because sieging positions are simply too strong.
3. my final point is that if siege tank/collosus/fungal positions are too strong they lead to very very rapid teching. this is why in TvT nowadays on daybreak it tends to go into the "turtly" phase of tvt wheree players kill off of them marine, and eventually their siege tanks for raven, viking ,battle cruiser and thor. these maps where defensive positions are 10x stronger than offensive ones lead to the death of muta builds, the death of hyper aggressive builds (multi dropping, flanking, etc)and we hvae seen that develop over time as the map pool changes and players get better at defending
my question to the TL community:
- the reason the rocks were at the third in the first place is a convoluted one. the map maker originally did not have destructible rocks (ty dustin) but felt that the first two expansions were too easily defensible for protoss and terran. so, in order to balance this, he took off geyser 6 and i believe 2 mineral patches from the 3rd base. in the blzzard version the rocks have been added and it is as full base. Would you hate this map less if it wasn't rocks at the third? what if it was a 1gas 6 min 3rd base?
this is my fave map and if it goes i will cry cry cry
On September 01 2012 01:13 c0sm0naut wrote: I cannot believe TDA is voted that poorly. Really no one likes this map? ive been an RTS player for a long time and TDA has a lot of good elements about it that make it different than other macro maps
1. natural expo is difficult to hold vs tank pushes, warpgate all ins and speedling aggression in the early game. unlike most maps, TDA has a difficult to secure early first expansion (unless your opponent is standard). this map and antiga are probably the only maps where you will consistently see high masters/gm zergs getting ling speed before their 3rd hatch 9/10 times. antiga is generally hated (for good reason) because 4th bases are difficult to take on that map. however, with tal darim, despite it's "friendliness" to early aggression, macro games are very playable. in a split map scenario this is one of the most epic maps you can possibly play on. in order to take base 4, 5, 6, and 7, you must control at least two watchtowers vs good players. if youre terran this means scattering bunkers/turrets around this area and turreting up your main.
2. this map consistently produces the best terran vs terran games. not only do most games start with gasfirst or 13g aggression (koreans have historically take gas on taldarim very quickly) , there is viability in early game tank pushes that are NOT all in. so you can go up, siege their geyser, kill it, then retreat and have a small gas lead. After the early game stages, 4 watchtowers must be controlled. there is not THAT much area to cover with turrets, which is a very nice thing about the main base on this map. in the mid game, this map has enough room for every terran style to be viable. i'm sure you mechfags out there hate this map, but if you're playing mech on tal darim or antiga youre doing it wrong. tank lines are VERY hard to set up on this map. there is constnat opportunity for counter attacking and harassment, as well as maneuvering. you can send a drop out, then break the side of his tank line on the weakside. on tal darim there is enough room for this. compared to a "modern" macro map like daybreak or cloud kingdom, these opportunities just don't exist because sieging positions are simply too strong.
3. my final point is that if siege tank/collosus/fungal positions are too strong they lead to very very rapid teching. this is why in TvT nowadays on daybreak it tends to go into the "turtly" phase of tvt wheree players kill off of them marine, and eventually their siege tanks for raven, viking ,battle cruiser and thor. these maps where defensive positions are 10x stronger than offensive ones lead to the death of muta builds, the death of hyper aggressive builds (multi dropping, flanking, etc)and we hvae seen that develop over time as the map pool changes and players get better at defending
my question to the TL community:
- the reason the rocks were at the third in the first place is a convoluted one. the map maker originally did not have destructible rocks (ty dustin) but felt that the first two expansions were too easily defensible for protoss and terran. so, in order to balance this, he took off geyser 6 and i believe 2 mineral patches from the 3rd base. in the blzzard version the rocks have been added and it is as full base. Would you hate this map less if it wasn't rocks at the third? what if it was a 1gas 6 min 3rd base?
this is my fave map and if it goes i will cry cry cry
If someone would modify TDA to make a normal ramp, no rocks on third and forced cross spawn only, the map would be completely fine with everyone.
At this point in the metagame, I think it would be fine to just remove the rocks from TDA and leave it at 8m2g. If they keep the map, I would like to see them raise the main up one level for PvP and remove the rocks.
ty for your responses. i just think its a great map. it's iconic. it truly did change the meta of this game. when it came out it was just sooooo big compared to everything. remember jjakji vs leenock with jjakji's hidden behind the minerals? leenock goes double spire, the first double spire build in gsl so far. that doesn't happen on a daybreak kind of map. these gargantuan 4p maps are really lacking except for condemned ridge, which is pretty much a horible map in general.
On September 01 2012 01:13 c0sm0naut wrote: I cannot believe TDA is voted that poorly. Really no one likes this map? ive been an RTS player for a long time and TDA has a lot of good elements about it that make it different than other macro maps
1. natural expo is difficult to hold vs tank pushes, warpgate all ins and speedling aggression in the early game. unlike most maps, TDA has a difficult to secure early first expansion (unless your opponent is standard). this map and antiga are probably the only maps where you will consistently see high masters/gm zergs getting ling speed before their 3rd hatch 9/10 times. antiga is generally hated (for good reason) because 4th bases are difficult to take on that map. however, with tal darim, despite it's "friendliness" to early aggression, macro games are very playable. in a split map scenario this is one of the most epic maps you can possibly play on. in order to take base 4, 5, 6, and 7, you must control at least two watchtowers vs good players. if youre terran this means scattering bunkers/turrets around this area and turreting up your main.
2. this map consistently produces the best terran vs terran games. not only do most games start with gasfirst or 13g aggression (koreans have historically take gas on taldarim very quickly) , there is viability in early game tank pushes that are NOT all in. so you can go up, siege their geyser, kill it, then retreat and have a small gas lead. After the early game stages, 4 watchtowers must be controlled. there is not THAT much area to cover with turrets, which is a very nice thing about the main base on this map. in the mid game, this map has enough room for every terran style to be viable. i'm sure you mechfags out there hate this map, but if you're playing mech on tal darim or antiga youre doing it wrong. tank lines are VERY hard to set up on this map. there is constnat opportunity for counter attacking and harassment, as well as maneuvering. you can send a drop out, then break the side of his tank line on the weakside. on tal darim there is enough room for this. compared to a "modern" macro map like daybreak or cloud kingdom, these opportunities just don't exist because sieging positions are simply too strong.
3. my final point is that if siege tank/collosus/fungal positions are too strong they lead to very very rapid teching. this is why in TvT nowadays on daybreak it tends to go into the "turtly" phase of tvt wheree players kill off of them marine, and eventually their siege tanks for raven, viking ,battle cruiser and thor. these maps where defensive positions are 10x stronger than offensive ones lead to the death of muta builds, the death of hyper aggressive builds (multi dropping, flanking, etc)and we hvae seen that develop over time as the map pool changes and players get better at defending
my question to the TL community:
- the reason the rocks were at the third in the first place is a convoluted one. the map maker originally did not have destructible rocks (ty dustin) but felt that the first two expansions were too easily defensible for protoss and terran. so, in order to balance this, he took off geyser 6 and i believe 2 mineral patches from the 3rd base. in the blzzard version the rocks have been added and it is as full base. Would you hate this map less if it wasn't rocks at the third? what if it was a 1gas 6 min 3rd base?
this is my fave map and if it goes i will cry cry cry
TDA is currently suckish,it has to be fused into a 2 player map and 3rd rocks removed,made a little smaller,and change watchtower position to the central.Then make the ramp normal and we have a super TDA that everybody would like
Oh my god, maybe it's because I'm terran but I hope to god they don't add in Metropolis. I don't feel like playing no-rush 50min games everytime i draw that map.
I don't understand why everyone wants EVERY map to be a colossal map. Why do can't we have more maps like Ohana? It's nice and small but not as bad as in the beginning of the game (i.e. steppes of war etc)
Honestly what I think we need is just a bigger pool in general. And I mean like 8 two player maps similar in size to Ohana and CK and 8 big 4 player maps like metropolis and Entombed and stuff.
We'd get more veto's obviously but I think a bigger map pool overall would help lessen the monotony of ladder. And it can get pretty monotonous.
my only issue is that prime/crux maps are gsl commissioned and so are given preference to their use in the gsl, and thusly are given preference in other tournaments and even the standard ladder ... not that they are bad maps, there are a few bad eggs (calm b4 storm, metro)
but there are many other amazing maps on the scene from other mappers that see little interest from the community just because they dont see them in tournaments. heck, even esv runs a rotation of their maps in their esv tournaments but the majority of users here will have no clue about most of them
and probably the most worst thing of all is that blizzard will probably introduce a whole new set of garbage maps for hots and force us to play them on ladder. you know, to "show off" the new features of hots. meh.
This is why the game is boring. Every zerg wants a macro map. They want to be able to drone up to 80 without any effort and than go BL/infestor/ling. BW was great because Zergs didn't need 3 mining bases to play. How many times did u see in BW a zerg wait til 200/200 to finally move out??
Smaller maps are better because it doesn't allow every race to double expo and sit til max armies than 1 battle GG. Every game now seems like it's 3 bases vs 3 bases 200/200. No one wants to watch those games.
On September 01 2012 04:19 tranmillitary wrote: This is why the game is boring. Every zerg wants a macro map. They want to be able to drone up to 80 without any effort and than go BL/infestor/ling. BW was great because Zergs didn't need 3 mining bases to play. How many times did u see in BW a zerg wait til 200/200 to finally move out??
Smaller maps are better because it doesn't allow every race to double expo and sit til max armies than 1 battle GG. Every game now seems like it's 3 bases vs 3 bases 200/200. No one wants to watch those games.
Wait what. You really don't understand how starcraft works if you don't think zergs needed 3 mining bases to play. (zvp vs forge FE EVERY zerg went 3 hatch 3 base unless they were doing a 2 base all in). Zvt if zerg didn't get a third at normal timing you lost. Tvz in bw was terran trying to deny third if possible and if they could they won. Just like in sc2, if zerg can't get a third base then terran/toss would win unless the zerg won with an all in.
Smaller maps make games end faster... It's one battle then GG. Jesus this post you made in general is wrong on so many levels.
On September 01 2012 04:19 tranmillitary wrote: This is why the game is boring. Every zerg wants a macro map. They want to be able to drone up to 80 without any effort and than go BL/infestor/ling. BW was great because Zergs didn't need 3 mining bases to play. How many times did u see in BW a zerg wait til 200/200 to finally move out??
Smaller maps are better because it doesn't allow every race to double expo and sit til max armies than 1 battle GG. Every game now seems like it's 3 bases vs 3 bases 200/200. No one wants to watch those games.
Sir thirds were and will always be needed by zerg cause they rely so heavily on them based on how the mechanics of the race work. Without a third in both BW and SC2 the zerg dies with immense ease unless it's some early game all in or cheese so unless that's what you mean and want you're wrong. An if that's actually the case you need to find a new game haha.
On September 01 2012 04:24 Catatonic wrote: Antiga and Tal'Darim are two of the best maps in the pool so here's to hoping they stick around. Seriously the hate they get is undeserved.
The problem with Tal'Darim is PvP 4gate warfare, no ramp at main/huge ramp at natural, 3rd base has browder's boulders, also it's older than shit, "balanced" as in 50/50 for all matchups, but forces out long drawn out uninspired gameplays.
Antiga just has 1 main attack path, and if it's not cross spawn, there's asymmetric imbalance due to different attack distance by ground/air, also 4th is nearly impossible to take unless you hold the middle, and middle is really hard to break due to high ground + vision tower that covers essentially everything.
I just want Blizzard to try more community map pools
Hopefully they won't add Metropolis. I really hate these stalemate situations on that map...also I think because you can defend on that map ridiculously good it really favors terran in TvZ, because they can relatively easy get up to a very defensive situation and tech up to skyterran which is hands down pretty much not beatable.
Don't see why people want Metropolis. That map pretty much kills the " in between " play you can do so you are not all in but also not super eco. Is designed for super eco builds but since its the damn ladder you won't have pros playing on it so it will also have a good vibe for all in build if its added to the ladder.
TDA has basically the same problem as Metro for an "average" player, setting up in the early/mid games is hard due to the strange ramps, lot of dropping areas and rocks at third to top that off. Its a great map if you reach late game but it basically goes on the principle of " Walk this thin edge between not being all ined and being greedy enough so you can enter the late game on a huge map like this". The only difference i see is that on Metro you will be struggling to play super economically rather than on TDA where you struggle to play standard. In my honest opinion the ladder needs more maps like Daybreak but maybe with the remove element that zerg has instant win on the map, except for the 3rd being position in the perfect spot for zerg that map has everything.
Taking the 3rd expo is a question of having enough units to defend in a position worse than the one at your natural, it isn't like entombed where taking a 3rd can mean better defensive position nor is it like antiga where taking a 3rd suddenly means that you have to defend 2 drop routes in complete opposite sides of your "territory" and you go from a "medium ramp" to "open field" with your army. Taking 4th/5th whoever is quite easy and for a split map scenario there are 3 wide open paths + 2 drop routes. Thus you can be relatively aggressive but not overly aggressive.
If it just had that 3rd base ether further away from the main, closer to the main it would be perfect example of a very good map for platinum to master players, as it stands that 3rd is placed in a position that is way to good for zerg but even still its what id call a good ladder map.
Honestly, I like Condemned Ridge. Its a total different style of play, something different. Granted, its a huge map, but I like seeing new and different maps; instead of the same old but with different title-sets.
On August 31 2012 19:32 AnomalySC2 wrote: Add a smaller sized map that allows players to fight earlier in the game WHILE going into a macro game. These massive, no rush 50 minutes sized maps are boring.
Daybreak is such a map.
On August 31 2012 19:35 Adonminus wrote: Tal'darim altar and shakuras plateau are very old and outdated maps. I'm expecting to have metropolis back because blizzard promised to return it in a future season.
I only really want them to add metropolis, remove Condenmed ridge and force Antiga cross spawns only.
TvT on Antiga is unbearable if I spawn clockwise around from somebody as they're always going to abuse tank positioning from the low ground into my base where it's impossible to trade well.
On September 03 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: Remove: Metropolis (if it's considered in right now), TDA, Condemned, Shakuras.
Make Antiga cross only. Remove Entombed close positions.
Add any good GSL maps.
Totally agree. Not only that the non cross positions and the close position on antiga and entombed are imbalanced, but also it makes me rage so much when I like send the probe as early as possible to scout and then die to a 6 pool or marine scv all in since it scouts the enemy last position.
On September 03 2012 03:22 TommyP wrote: Need to remove Taldarim Altar Condemned Ridge Shakuras Plateau Antiga Shipyard (or make it no gold patches and cross only) Entomned Valley
Need to add Metropolis Muspelhiem a small map like Cloud Kingdom and 2 others.
I don't think Entombed needs to be removed. Just get rid of close positions.
On September 03 2012 03:22 TommyP wrote: Need to remove Taldarim Altar Condemned Ridge Shakuras Plateau Antiga Shipyard (or make it no gold patches and cross only) Entomned Valley
Need to add Metropolis Muspelhiem a small map like Cloud Kingdom and 2 others.
I don't think Entombed needs to be removed. Just get rid of close positions.
I dont like it because its one of DRG's least favorite maps lol
On September 03 2012 03:22 TommyP wrote: Need to remove Taldarim Altar Condemned Ridge Shakuras Plateau Antiga Shipyard (or make it no gold patches and cross only) Entomned Valley
Need to add Metropolis Muspelhiem a small map like Cloud Kingdom and 2 others.
I don't think Entombed needs to be removed. Just get rid of close positions.
I dont like it because its one of DRG's least favorite maps lol
Entombed has probably created half of this year's best games. It's also a balanced map imo. It might play out differently because a third base is this easy to secure for protoss but I mean... alter your 4th base timing as zerg according to it and you're fine.
Personally, I dont care if they have Tal'darim, Antiga and such shit maps in the pool -- as long as they give enough vetoes for me to avoid playing on them.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Bel'Shir_Beach 1:the ramp is connected to flat ground,and it has several ramps to the natural. 2The top ground by the ramp in beetween the nat and main is abusable for a warp in
On September 03 2012 03:55 DontNerfInfestors wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Bel'Shir_Beach 1:the ramp is connected to flat ground,and it has several ramps to the natural. 2The top ground by the ramp in beetween the nat and main is abusable for a warp in
That's true for Bel'shir (which is why it isn't a good map and doesn't see any tournament use anymore). But the new map does have a normal, high-to-low ramp and the nat has a wide choke into multiple entries just like Daybreak. So if I don't miss anything, this map is not any more 4Gate prone than the other maps in the pool (TDA needs to die). It looks like blink/elevator heaven, which is not a bad thing at all, considering it's pretty large.
I don't get it. So many people constantly argue about nerfs and buffs to races because they say they want a balanced game. Yet I come into this thread and see a vast majority of players want a map added to the ladder that has been shown to be extremely imbalanced in tournaments. I just don't understand could someone explain it to me?
On August 30 2012 15:48 mrtomjones wrote: They need to change the 2's, 3's and 4's maps up.. heck do FFA while they are at it.. one guy working for 8 hours could do that job -_- let the community design some..
This. The 2v2 map pool especially is complete garbage. Put Tal'Darim sized maps in multi and not 1v1. I think it's stupid that you have a map like TDA in 1v1 and yet the 2v2 maps have maybe 2 base per player (some not even that). Really takes away from the fun of 2v2 imo - which should be about wicked sweet max 400 vs 400 battles and is instead about "rush at 6 min?".
Oh wait: it's stacked against Terran so it doesn't matter.
it makes a lot of sense too. only 28% of the ladder above master is terran, so why should we have, as a minority, a say in what maps are added into the mappool.
...thats actually not that far off the "even" value of 33% if you just take P/T/Z. And its above average if you include random. >_>
Anyway TDA HAS to go. Seriously. I used to actually like playing on it as well but these days for Protoss its an auto-veto because of PvP on it, its absolutely massive so its bad for Terran attacks and it has rocks right on the 3rd for Zergs to get angry about. It seems almost designed to have bad aspects for every race.
I'd actually like to see Daybreak gone. I know it probably won't happen but I'm really just not a fan at all. Can't quite pin why, I think its something to do with the fact theres no real chokepoint into the natural expansion. I've grown to dislike it so much I actually been vetoing it the past week or so.
As for what to bring in...I take it Calm Before the Storm is out of the question? >_> Metropolis would be nice.
On September 03 2012 04:16 Mattumsfox wrote: I don't get it. So many people constantly argue about nerfs and buffs to races because they say they want a balanced game. Yet I come into this thread and see a vast majority of players want a map added to the ladder that has been shown to be extremely imbalanced in tournaments. I just don't understand could someone explain it to me?
Tournament balance has nothing to do with anything.
For average players, a large map with easy expansions leads to "macro games" (which is code for passive).
I've never played on it so I can't really comment.
Blizzard will probably remove Shakuras and Tal'darim altar and add Metropolis + one of their maps. They will also probably do something special for season 10 (not sure though)
Love all the awesome polls. What will blizzard add LOL. I think that another metropolis would be solid, completely differently laid out (no island expo) but the same kind of length from expo to expo.
I feel the best map to be added would be a map from GSL because they obviously test it a lot with the best players in the world displaying the balances. That no one can say is wrong if it is balanced on the GSL because if its balanced at that skill level where if there is poor balance you should be able to clearly see it in the high levels mostly.
Taldarim for toss on ladder 4 gate or zerg fast easy to defend 3 and easy snipe all ins cause long run to and xelnagas. only pvt there are balanced for toss now. So veto recommended.
Maps I really want to go are antiga, taldarim, shakuras, entombed, mostly because the are so old and some of them are really weird. I wouldnt mind switching out ohana and daybreak just because Ohana is imo a boring map and daybreak mostly produces borings games... so I really only like cloud
I don't understand many people's motivations behind wanting to replace Tal Darim Altar with Metropolis. I suppose we want to remove a map that is simply too big to be a 1v1 map but has many features to make it balanced (rocks at third, seigeable natural, no main base ramp to make 1 basing viable), and replace it with a map that is also way too big to be a 1v1 map but lacks the features needed to make it balanced for Terran. I have had Tal Darim vetoed for all but the first season because I could never beat zerg and, more innocently, because I was repulsed by the sheer size of the map. It is much better than Metropolis though, both aesthetically and for gameplay. Metropolis is just a huge boring map that encourages players to sit on their ass for 15 minutes, and favors Zerg excessively and Protoss moderately over Terran.
There seems to be this overwhelming feeling in the community that all games should be "no rush 10 minutes," and that maps should be gigantic to accommodate this style of play. We label every 1 base strategy cheese, and I hear commentators all the time give implicit praise to players for making the "conservative defensive choice," instead of the super aggressive all in choice, even when players are on 2 or 3 bases. You see this prejudice all the time, and I simply don't understand it. Whirlwind, Tal Darim, Metropolis, Terminus, and Atlantis Spaceship are all maps that are simply too big to be 1v1 maps. 1v1 maps should be sized anywhere from Lost Temple to Antiga Shipyard. Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, and Shakuras Plateau are ideally sized maps.
On September 17 2012 01:31 KJSharp wrote: I don't understand many people's motivations behind wanting to replace Tal Darim Altar with Metropolis. I suppose we want to remove a map that is simply too big to be a 1v1 map but has many features to make it balanced (rocks at third, seigeable natural, no main base ramp to make 1 basing viable), and replace it with a map that is also way too big to be a 1v1 map but lacks the features needed to make it balanced for Terran. I have had Tal Darim vetoed for all but the first season because I could never beat zerg and, more innocently, because I was repulsed by the sheer size of the map. It is much better than Metropolis though, both aesthetically and for gameplay. Metropolis is just a huge boring map that encourages players to sit on their ass for 15 minutes, and favors Zerg excessively and Protoss moderately over Terran.
There seems to be this overwhelming feeling in the community that all games should be "no rush 10 minutes," and that maps should be gigantic to accommodate this style of play. We label every 1 base strategy cheese, and I hear commentators all the time give implicit praise to players for making the "conservative defensive choice," instead of the super aggressive all in choice, even when players are on 2 or 3 bases. You see this prejudice all the time, and I simply don't understand it. Whirlwind, Tal Darim, Metropolis, Terminus, and Atlantis Spaceship are all maps that are simply too big to be 1v1 maps. 1v1 maps should be sized anywhere from Lost Temple to Antiga Shipyard. Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, and Shakuras Plateau are ideally sized maps.
It's because the other 2 races can't pull half their workers at a random time and make the other player work 10 times as hard to defend. If that part of Terran wasn't broken as hell because of mules, all the races could conceivably want the same map features.
It's more of a survival mechanism than a prejudice. If you could siege the natural on metropolis from some silly location, would you like the map?
On September 17 2012 01:36 yeastiality wrote: It's because the other 2 races can't pull half their workers at a random time and make the other player work 10 times as hard to defend. If that part of Terran wasn't broken as hell because of mules, all the races could conceivably want the same map features.
It's more of a survival mechanism than a prejudice. If you could siege the natural on metropolis from some silly location, would you like the map?
Work 10 times as hard? You mean like blindly building queens?
Anyway, it should be obvious from my post that I wouldn't like metropolis even if I could seige the natural. Learn to read. I said 1) I didn't like Tal Darim because it was too big and 2) I've had Tal Darim vetoed since the end of Season 1.
TDA is just terrible, I have had it vetoed from its inception. Metropolis is a much better map and not comparable really, just watch pro games/play on the maps and it should be clear which is better, if its not then i guess we just disagree. Just my opinion and you are entitled to have a different one. As to KJSharps question I think most people just believe that there is less skill involved in pulling of a 1 bass strategy than there is in playing a longer macro oriented game with map controll, scouting, harass and harass defence and i agree. I also think that its the general direction that the game is taking so the maps should reflect that change in meta. Its not like you cant pull of one base play on larger maps it just takes more effort. The fact is TDA is the one map that doesn't have a ramp to the main and most people think that is a bad feature to leave out. If you watched or played early SC2 games it was all one base play and it gets dull after a while, granted we are talking about the ladder here and not tournaments but i think that the ladder metagame reflects pro play in a lot of ways. Its not really a prejudice as much as a preference.
It looks like we have to wait till season 10 for changes.I hope their major changes and that they do a real poll Blizz thinks TDA is perfected but it has been only fixed in one of the 4 things that are broken.
On September 17 2012 01:36 yeastiality wrote: It's because the other 2 races can't pull half their workers at a random time and make the other player work 10 times as hard to defend. If that part of Terran wasn't broken as hell because of mules, all the races could conceivably want the same map features.
It's more of a survival mechanism than a prejudice. If you could siege the natural on metropolis from some silly location, would you like the map?
Work 10 times as hard? You mean like blindly building queens?
Anyway, it should be obvious from my post that I wouldn't like metropolis even if I could seige the natural. Learn to read. I said 1) I didn't like Tal Darim because it was too big and 2) I've had Tal Darim vetoed since the end of Season 1.
I want Tal Darim gone cause its kind of a boring map to me. But metropolis would be even worse for the reasons you listed. I agree, the maps are getting a little absurd. Its fine to have maybe one or two that are very big, but I should expect a good amount of variance. If one map makes it easy to expand another should make it a bit hard.
i would love to see metropolis back, never lost a game as terran and never played a game under 1 hour. Not a surprise no one wants to play that map against me anymore~ .
EPT
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