• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:34
CEST 17:34
KST 00:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20258Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced24BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 767 users

CoCa is #1 in the GSTL - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Oiseaux
Profile Joined May 2011
United States676 Posts
July 29 2012 01:07 GMT
#41
At least with this season where not every team played the same amount of games due to seeds, I don't really see any way to create a statistic in a way that SeeKeR is trying to represent. I think Nazgul's is better in general, but it still suffers from the same problem. Plus such a statistic sort goes against the grain of what a team league is supposed to be about; the team, not the individual.

Tangent, I'm surprised nobody is crying SPOILERS! yet (thank god).
"[S]o be ready to kiss a few donkeys with glued-on paper horns during your unicorn hunt." -Some stupid 4x4 magazine
Daigomi
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
South Africa4316 Posts
July 29 2012 01:13 GMT
#42
On July 29 2012 09:59 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2012 09:58 Daigomi wrote:
On July 29 2012 09:27 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
What a misusage of statistics.

10-2 should be seen as +8 wins and 11-4 as +7. Total amount of wins is a useless statistic in a league where not everyone plays the same amount.

(For whoever said 7-1 should be better than 11-4 I don't think you can defend that with logic and uphold a normal ranking. By most reasoning you would end up with 2-0 beating both those scores.)

I'd disagree. It's not a misusage of statistics, it's just statistics used for a different purpose than you would have used it for. They wanted to know who won the most games, which is clearly CoCa. The questions wasn't who was the MVP or who had the best record, in which case net wins or even win percentage might be a more relevant. The fact of the matter is that CoCa contributed the most wins to his team of any player, and that's why he gets the interview. You get the same award in all sports: Most goals scored, most medals won, etc. None of these awards take the number of games played into consideration, they simply look at who did the most.

So yeah, I think this is perfectly valid. Whether it says anything about who was the best player of the season is a different question.


If you put it that way then the title is pretty misleading - I wouldn't say CoCa is #1 in the GSTL at all...

Likewise, in the NBA, mid-season, people typically rank teams based on either W/L % or highest differential, not based on who has the most wins at any one point in time.

I'm not sure, CoCa is #1 in the GSTL in terms of wins which is a perfectly valid metric. It might not be your preferred metric, but it's not biased or unfair. In tennis, Sharapova is #1 in the world according to points even though Serena Williams is arguably a better player, she just doesn't compete in as many tournaments.

In the NBA, mid-season rankings are based on the assumption that all teams will eventually play the same number of games. As such, ranking teams by their winning percentage is a good indication of who will end up with the most wins. The comparison is obviously not valid for this situation, and even so, I think the NBA is an exception. The British Premier League is always ranked according to current points, and the same goes for pretty much every other league I've ever seen.

If you really want to go into the subjective judgement of who was the best of the season, it should be noted that of all the players on the list, CoCa played the most games by far. That's perhaps indicative of how he was used. For one, it seems like Slayers relied more on Coca than MVP did on Sniper (7-1), for example. A player who goes 7-1 might be used more regularly as a closer or a sniper than a person who is 11-4 (who is very open to being sniped). I'm not arguing that CoCa was the best player this season, I'm just pointing out that there are reasons why most wins could be used as a metric for best player.

But as I said in my first post, the posted article is about who won the most games, not about who the best player is. And the answer to that question is CoCa.
Moderator
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
July 29 2012 01:22 GMT
#43
Guys, this is team league, and includes elimination phase(s), instead of being full round-robin. This award is for being the most valuable player for his team, not for being the best player individually. That means, you are more valuable if you help your team play at higher stages, and also your wins there are more valuable. It's also a KotH format, which means you play either until you lose, or until your team wins. That makes your number of lost games less relevant than your number of won games. But let's just look at their record in all stages:

final
C -1
S (not played)

semi-final
C 3
S 1-1

round2
C 7-2
S -1

round1
C 1-1
S 9-0

I think it's very clear who was more valuable for his team overall.

It's also worth noting that Coca did not perform nearly as well as Symbol in individual leagues outside of GSTL - that means Coca dedicated a lot of personal effort for his team and for GSTL, even if he might not be at the monster level Symbol is right now.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 01:33:13
July 29 2012 01:32 GMT
#44
You know what I just noticed? Brown should get more credit now...

What (P)Brown accomplished:

  • Stopped Symbol from gaining momentum
  • Sniped TSL's best player
  • Prevented Symbol from adding anymore wins and stealing away the #1 spot from CoCa
  • Proved that his PvZ was still unstoppable
  • Went into total baws mode even though his father was against it

SlayerS_Brown: Your TRUE 2012 GSTL Season 2 MVP
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
Catatonic
Profile Joined August 2011
United States699 Posts
July 29 2012 01:36 GMT
#45
On July 29 2012 08:39 SomeONEx wrote:
I say that 7-1 > 11-4, Sniper should be #1.

Going by amount of wins no way man haha
T: DeMuslim SeleCT. P: Naniwa Genius. Z: IdrA Destiny Team: EG
EG.Thorzain
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden164 Posts
July 29 2012 01:37 GMT
#46
CoCa so siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick
Thanks to Roberi for taking care of my TL fanclub! Also a thanks to all my fans in and outside my TL fanclub :). Fighting~~!
Bibbit
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada5377 Posts
July 29 2012 01:39 GMT
#47
Looking at a lot of the posts in this thread, I could have never imagined that Slayers didnt actually win the GSTL :O
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
July 29 2012 01:43 GMT
#48
On July 29 2012 09:59 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2012 09:58 Daigomi wrote:
On July 29 2012 09:27 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
What a misusage of statistics.

10-2 should be seen as +8 wins and 11-4 as +7. Total amount of wins is a useless statistic in a league where not everyone plays the same amount.

(For whoever said 7-1 should be better than 11-4 I don't think you can defend that with logic and uphold a normal ranking. By most reasoning you would end up with 2-0 beating both those scores.)

I'd disagree. It's not a misusage of statistics, it's just statistics used for a different purpose than you would have used it for. They wanted to know who won the most games, which is clearly CoCa. The questions wasn't who was the MVP or who had the best record, in which case net wins or even win percentage might be a more relevant. The fact of the matter is that CoCa contributed the most wins to his team of any player, and that's why he gets the interview. You get the same award in all sports: Most goals scored, most medals won, etc. None of these awards take the number of games played into consideration, they simply look at who did the most.

So yeah, I think this is perfectly valid. Whether it says anything about who was the best player of the season is a different question.


If you put it that way then the title is pretty misleading - I wouldn't say CoCa is #1 in the GSTL at all...

Likewise, in the NBA, mid-season, people typically rank teams based on either W/L % or highest differential, not based on who has the most wins at any one point in time.



Because NBA mid season ranks is important? By end of season, every team plays the same number of games. These rankings are fine. It is like most wins by a pitcher, most wins by goalie...
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 02:06:55
July 29 2012 02:04 GMT
#49
On July 29 2012 10:22 figq wrote:
Guys, this is team league, and includes elimination phase(s), instead of being full round-robin. This award is for being the most valuable player for his team, not for being the best player individually. That means, you are more valuable if you help your team play at higher stages, and also your wins there are more valuable. It's also a KotH format, which means you play either until you lose, or until your team wins. That makes your number of lost games less relevant than your number of won games. But let's just look at their record in all stages:

final
C -1
S (not played)

semi-final
C 3
S 1-1

round2
C 7-2
S -1

round1
C 1-1
S 9-0

I think it's very clear who was more valuable for his team overall.

It's also worth noting that Coca did not perform nearly as well as Symbol in individual leagues outside of GSTL - that means Coca dedicated a lot of personal effort for his team and for GSTL, even if he might not be at the monster level Symbol is right now.

the problem with this metric is that the Gold Card should be awarded to an FXO player, not a losing team's player
i think that's how it's been done every other season
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
NoGasfOu
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1117 Posts
July 29 2012 02:24 GMT
#50
....or maybe Gumiho should get the title since he won the most games on the most important day.
Tassadar/TheBest/Jjakji/Rain(terran)/Heart
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-29 02:30:23
July 29 2012 02:30 GMT
#51
On July 29 2012 11:24 NoGasfOu wrote:
....or maybe Gumiho should get the title since he won the most games on the most important day.

this, MMA won the Gold Card in GSTL 2/3 even though he only won a handful of games.
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
July 29 2012 02:30 GMT
#52
No, no, the metric is very clear - total number of wins. I'm just illustrating a particular case why this metric actually does work to show who's been more valuable within these rules.

Basically, the number of losses is almost irrelevant, you are supposed to lose every time you get out for your team, eventually, unless you close the whole match. A player with more losses just has played for his team a lot more.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
ShowTheLights
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Korea (South)1685 Posts
July 29 2012 02:37 GMT
#53
On July 29 2012 10:37 Thorzain wrote:
CoCa so siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick


:D

too bad this is completely spoiled by the GSTL loss (( so fucking sad. also, CoCa hasnt even returned to Code A yet

oh well, yay CoCa..
•••Acer.MMA••• <> KT_Puzzle <> JinAir•GreenWings_CoCa <> CJ_herO <> Axiom CranK & Ryung <> IM_Seed <> IM_Squirtle <> le' ToD <> Innovation <> ROOT_CatZ <> inuh! <> Chobra <> SKT1_Fantasy
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
July 29 2012 02:51 GMT
#54
Just want to state something just in case:

I did not create that list of players you see in the OP. That was also done by TIG. I am not trying to prove anything by using those statistics. My job is to copy and paste
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
July 29 2012 12:58 GMT
#55
Wait, what? Is this the MVP Gold Card? Wasn't that reserved only for a player on the championship team? Or is this article simply stating that Coca got the most wins and was simply an acknowledgement?

Basically is Coca getting an award, or just a tip of the hat?
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Dexington
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada7276 Posts
July 29 2012 13:01 GMT
#56
On July 29 2012 08:51 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2012 08:45 Apolo wrote:
On July 29 2012 08:39 SomeONEx wrote:
I say that 7-1 > 11-4, Sniper should be #1.


By that logic someone 3-0 > 7-1 should be #1


I disagree with this assessment, for instance it shows Symbol as 10-2 which is better than 11-4 : D but I agree 3-0 shouldnt > 7-1 but 11-4 shouldn't > 7-1 imo


I'm really not following this logic.
"Man you guys are missing out waving your stats dicks about instead of watching this pvp" - bbm
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
July 29 2012 13:18 GMT
#57
On July 29 2012 08:48 NoGasfOu wrote:
I think Symbol and Life are more impressive with records of 10-2 and 9-2, respectively. Symbol is the king of them all with the highest winning percentage.

wow your really good at looking at numbers
bokchoi
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Korea (South)9498 Posts
July 29 2012 13:18 GMT
#58
The problem with using map difference in GSTL is that the season is short so its hard to really assess how impressive one persons 3-1 is to someones 4-2 or whatever. For FIFA the golden boot is most goals, not best goal ratio, same idea.
digmouse
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
China6329 Posts
July 29 2012 13:19 GMT
#59
Rank 3: GuMiho 9 - 3 75.0%
+ Show Spoiler +
5 of his kills are in the finals holy crap
TranslatorIf you want to ask anything about Chinese esports, send me a PM or follow me @nerddigmouse.
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
July 29 2012 13:27 GMT
#60
I think the winner shouldn't be throned just by sheer numbers, but instead have a vote for something.

Symbol's GSTL run was far more impressive imo, without taking anything away from CoCa
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14:00
Bracket Day 2 - Final
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Lambo vs GeraldLIVE!
Clem vs SKillous
Reynor vs TBD
RotterdaM2160
ComeBackTV 1734
IndyStarCraft 652
WardiTV374
CranKy Ducklings220
Rex169
3DClanTV 124
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2160
IndyStarCraft 652
Rex 169
MindelVK 51
BRAT_OK 1
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 43806
EffOrt 1811
Barracks 1727
Larva 1031
BeSt 561
Stork 523
firebathero 431
Nal_rA 364
Soulkey 211
Dewaltoss 153
[ Show more ]
Rush 135
Hyun 109
Sharp 77
sorry 77
Shine 72
Movie 60
Shinee 52
sSak 45
Free 35
zelot 30
yabsab 21
Terrorterran 17
IntoTheRainbow 9
Dota 2
Gorgc5952
qojqva4489
XcaliburYe385
420jenkins374
Counter-Strike
fl0m2837
oskar188
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor619
Other Games
Beastyqt1635
B2W.Neo1544
Hui .388
DeMusliM288
Fuzer 153
KnowMe106
QueenE75
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV42
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 5
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 49
• Legendk 11
• Dystopia_ 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV704
League of Legends
• Jankos1453
Counter-Strike
• Nemesis2415
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2h 27m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
19h 27m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 18h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.