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Please stop with the jokes/posts that speculate something sexual or scandalous is at play here. They do not contribute to discussion and are generally of very poor taste. |
On July 17 2012 14:17 McFeser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:14 andaylin wrote:
MVPMMA. Let's make it happen.
Or better yet, Woongjin Stars' MMA. Be reunited with your Coach and get your powers back. You got it right the second time. Always got the feeling that Boxer disliked KESPA, with how independently his team is ran, and MMA going to KESPA would be the most rebellious decision that he could make.
The the SC2 Kespa that emerges once SC2 becomes thier primary focus may behave differently then BW Kespa. Perhaps they could be much more lax, or even start some global form of itself.
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On July 17 2012 14:17 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:07 PhoenixDark wrote:
I don't think the MMA news has anything to do with Jessica per se. Boxer considered MMA his protege and seemed very invested in him becoming a truly great player and leader. But like nearly every GSL winner, MMA's play deteriorated shortly after his big win. GSL winners get a large sum of money, and given how young most are, it's not surprising that they seemingly become relaxed after winning, and decide to start spending the money (sure they buy their parents stuff, but they also clearly spend it on themselves). And while most of the GSL winners rebound eventually, some sooner than others, MMA has pretty much fallen off the map.
We were talking in the NASL thread about his heavy micro/aggression style going out of style as Terran became more macro oriented, and I think that's part of the reason he has fallen off. Another reason is likely due to practice. If he isn't showing the proper determination in practice, I could totally see Boxer attempting to demote him as a means of motivating/shaming him. But apparently it backfired...
I think we're going to see more of this. BW pros practiced under harsher and more concentrated circumstances than most SC2 players. That's not to say SC2 players don't practice, just that they aren't practicing as much as many BW teams do/did. Boxer is obviously from that old school mind set, and has witnessed players on his own former teams work very hard and ultimately reach great heights (iloveoov). I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to get MMA to that level, but MMA is simply not as motivated.
Joining a foreigner team offers great opportunity while rewarding laziness in many ways; if MMA were to join a major foreigner team, it's very unlikely he would "have" to practice hard, and would instead be flown from tournament to tournament enjoying the thrill of fans and winning money. I fear that if we continue to see moves like this, the Korean scene might begin to protect itself by cooperating less and less with foreign teams/tournaments. Lol falling off the map for 3 months makes you a lazy, lousy player? (3 months since iron squid win) Also, I didn't read the NASL thread, but you're wrong, MMA has fantastic multitasking, it's not like he just pose aggressively without macroing, his macro is very good as well, he isnt some gimmicky 2 base allin player, and of you knew what you were taking about you would have seen his macro games. Being aggressive and macroing is NOT mutually exclusive. Also, TvZ is leaning towards this 'micro- aggressive' game or whatever you call it. Players like QXC and Idra have commented on it, because of the queen buff the best way to play TvZ is bio tank, at least to early mid game.
It's been more than three months actually, he has struggled all year. Yea he won Iron Squid but...meh. And I stand by my critique of his micro v macro play. The metagame has shifted, and while he's certainly good at macro I would argue he is no longer a top 5 Terran player, would might likely be a low top 10. So I'm not saying he's horrible, just that he has fallen off.
I'm not saying he's lazy, I'm saying it's possible that this dispute is over practice and the high expectations Boxer has for him.
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Cant believe they not only demoted him to B teamer but also kicked him out of the house wtf? Isnt that how they practice in house? They didnt even do that to coca........
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Given the decision to kick him out of the team house, I think it can only be a few things:
1) physically fighting someone else in the house
2) saying something really awful or making an unacceptable complaint
3) not practicing at all and distracting others
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Holy shit what has HAPPEND in the slayers house?
If someone could update the OP as soon as iit is made known I would be grateful, disciplinary action where you are forced to move away from your team must either come from something riddciolous or something very serious.
No matter what it is it spurs my curiousity ^^
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I hope Boxer pulls an Obi Wan Kenobi from episode 3 on MMA You were the chosen one! You were to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, but iirc MMA is the captain, surely this isn't good for the team if the captain had a huge run in with other team leaders and was kicked out of the house and demoted to B team. Let's hope Slayers are in control and this was justified.
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Also, is this kind of punishment the kind of thing that Slayers should air out? I feel like this is uglier than it should be because it's now semi-public, especially if MMA isn't being withdrawn from competition.
Just punish him within the team. That happens on all teams in all sports.
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Korea (South)1749 Posts
On July 17 2012 14:22 hordala wrote:
Cant believe they not only demoted him to B teamer but also kicked him out of the house wtf? Isnt that how they practice in house? They didnt even do that to coca........
AFAIK Coca also got kicked out of the house and practiced at his home
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On July 17 2012 14:22 PhoenixDark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:17 lisward wrote:On July 17 2012 14:07 PhoenixDark wrote:
I don't think the MMA news has anything to do with Jessica per se. Boxer considered MMA his protege and seemed very invested in him becoming a truly great player and leader. But like nearly every GSL winner, MMA's play deteriorated shortly after his big win. GSL winners get a large sum of money, and given how young most are, it's not surprising that they seemingly become relaxed after winning, and decide to start spending the money (sure they buy their parents stuff, but they also clearly spend it on themselves). And while most of the GSL winners rebound eventually, some sooner than others, MMA has pretty much fallen off the map.
We were talking in the NASL thread about his heavy micro/aggression style going out of style as Terran became more macro oriented, and I think that's part of the reason he has fallen off. Another reason is likely due to practice. If he isn't showing the proper determination in practice, I could totally see Boxer attempting to demote him as a means of motivating/shaming him. But apparently it backfired...
I think we're going to see more of this. BW pros practiced under harsher and more concentrated circumstances than most SC2 players. That's not to say SC2 players don't practice, just that they aren't practicing as much as many BW teams do/did. Boxer is obviously from that old school mind set, and has witnessed players on his own former teams work very hard and ultimately reach great heights (iloveoov). I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to get MMA to that level, but MMA is simply not as motivated.
Joining a foreigner team offers great opportunity while rewarding laziness in many ways; if MMA were to join a major foreigner team, it's very unlikely he would "have" to practice hard, and would instead be flown from tournament to tournament enjoying the thrill of fans and winning money. I fear that if we continue to see moves like this, the Korean scene might begin to protect itself by cooperating less and less with foreign teams/tournaments. Lol falling off the map for 3 months makes you a lazy, lousy player? (3 months since iron squid win) Also, I didn't read the NASL thread, but you're wrong, MMA has fantastic multitasking, it's not like he just pose aggressively without macroing, his macro is very good as well, he isnt some gimmicky 2 base allin player, and of you knew what you were taking about you would have seen his macro games. Being aggressive and macroing is NOT mutually exclusive. Also, TvZ is leaning towards this 'micro- aggressive' game or whatever you call it. Players like QXC and Idra have commented on it, because of the queen buff the best way to play TvZ is bio tank, at least to early mid game. It's been more than three months actually, he has struggled all year. Yea he won Iron Squid but...meh. And I stand by my critique of his micro v macro play. The metagame has shifted, and while he's certainly good at macro I would argue he is no longer a top 5 Terran player, would might likely be a low top 10. So I'm not saying he's horrible, just that he has fallen off. I'm not saying he's lazy, I'm saying it's possible that this dispute is over practice and the high expectations Boxer has for him.
There is no such thing as micro vs macro, because a good player has to be able to do both at the same time. It's something bad players made up in the past when they kept on losing in games. What do you mean by a macro game? What, turtle up at 3 base mech and pray that your 1A doesn't fail?
He isn't in a slump because he's always been a gimmicky micro based player being phased out by what you call a 'macro' oriented macro game, or that everyone else now has better macro. He's in a slump because he's in a slump.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 17 2012 14:27 redloser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:22 hordala wrote:
Cant believe they not only demoted him to B teamer but also kicked him out of the house wtf? Isnt that how they practice in house? They didnt even do that to coca........
AFAIK Coca also got kicked out of the house and practiced at his home
Coca and Byun both took their punishments like men and both came back better than ever. Byun now in the semifinals of Code S and Coca killing it in GSTL and in OSL Dual.
But I will hold off on my opinion until we actually learn what MMA did to get kicked out and him wanting out.
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On July 17 2012 14:14 andaylin wrote:
MVPMMA. Let's make it happen.
Or better yet, Woongjin Stars' MMA. Be reunited with your Coach and get your powers back.
Going to a KeSPA team? That'd be ludicrous. Even in the relatively short time I've been following StarCraft I remember Savior and Bisu getting knocked to their respective b-teams, and that was just for slumps, not for disciplinary issues.
Seriously, unless his punishment is in fact completely unjust and unfounded, which, knowing absolutely nothing about the situation, is something silly to assume, I can practically guarantee that MMA's situation would have been worse in a KeSPA team.
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Damn, this sucks. Hope everything is okay. MMA seems really pissed.
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On July 17 2012 14:31 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:27 redloser wrote:On July 17 2012 14:22 hordala wrote:
Cant believe they not only demoted him to B teamer but also kicked him out of the house wtf? Isnt that how they practice in house? They didnt even do that to coca........
AFAIK Coca also got kicked out of the house and practiced at his home Coca and Byun both took their punishments like men and both came back better than ever. Byun now in the semifinals of Code S and Coca killing it in GSTL and in OSL Dual. But I will hold off on my opinion until we actually learn what MMA did to get kicked out and him wanting out.
what byun and coca did wasn't even close to warrant any punishment. You can see intentional draws/concessions all the time at pro level mtg and they don't affect the integrity of the game one bit.
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On July 17 2012 14:22 coverpunch wrote:
Given the decision to kick him out of the team house, I think it can only be a few things:
1) physically fighting someone else in the house
2) saying something really awful or making an unacceptable complaint
3) not practicing at all and distracting others
4) Demanding a pay raise
5) Responding badly to a pay-decrease
6) Cheating in some form or another
7) Breaking Korean law in some way
8) Walking around in briefs and singing "We are the champions"
9) The list goes on forever
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On July 17 2012 14:22 PhoenixDark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:17 lisward wrote:On July 17 2012 14:07 PhoenixDark wrote:
I don't think the MMA news has anything to do with Jessica per se. Boxer considered MMA his protege and seemed very invested in him becoming a truly great player and leader. But like nearly every GSL winner, MMA's play deteriorated shortly after his big win. GSL winners get a large sum of money, and given how young most are, it's not surprising that they seemingly become relaxed after winning, and decide to start spending the money (sure they buy their parents stuff, but they also clearly spend it on themselves). And while most of the GSL winners rebound eventually, some sooner than others, MMA has pretty much fallen off the map.
We were talking in the NASL thread about his heavy micro/aggression style going out of style as Terran became more macro oriented, and I think that's part of the reason he has fallen off. Another reason is likely due to practice. If he isn't showing the proper determination in practice, I could totally see Boxer attempting to demote him as a means of motivating/shaming him. But apparently it backfired...
I think we're going to see more of this. BW pros practiced under harsher and more concentrated circumstances than most SC2 players. That's not to say SC2 players don't practice, just that they aren't practicing as much as many BW teams do/did. Boxer is obviously from that old school mind set, and has witnessed players on his own former teams work very hard and ultimately reach great heights (iloveoov). I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to get MMA to that level, but MMA is simply not as motivated.
Joining a foreigner team offers great opportunity while rewarding laziness in many ways; if MMA were to join a major foreigner team, it's very unlikely he would "have" to practice hard, and would instead be flown from tournament to tournament enjoying the thrill of fans and winning money. I fear that if we continue to see moves like this, the Korean scene might begin to protect itself by cooperating less and less with foreign teams/tournaments. Lol falling off the map for 3 months makes you a lazy, lousy player? (3 months since iron squid win) Also, I didn't read the NASL thread, but you're wrong, MMA has fantastic multitasking, it's not like he just pose aggressively without macroing, his macro is very good as well, he isnt some gimmicky 2 base allin player, and of you knew what you were taking about you would have seen his macro games. Being aggressive and macroing is NOT mutually exclusive. Also, TvZ is leaning towards this 'micro- aggressive' game or whatever you call it. Players like QXC and Idra have commented on it, because of the queen buff the best way to play TvZ is bio tank, at least to early mid game. It's been more than three months actually, he has struggled all year. Yea he won Iron Squid but...meh. And I stand by my critique of his micro v macro play. The metagame has shifted, and while he's certainly good at macro I would argue he is no longer a top 5 Terran player, would might likely be a low top 10. So I'm not saying he's horrible, just that he has fallen off. I'm not saying he's lazy, I'm saying it's possible that this dispute is over practice and the high expectations Boxer has for him.
To say he's "fallen off", that gives me visions of someone who won't ever have the ability to comeback, say FruitDealer or Ensnare or someone. It's more that he's in a slump, he definitely has the talent to come back. His losing streak is nothing unusual for a top player IMO.
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On July 17 2012 14:28 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:22 PhoenixDark wrote:On July 17 2012 14:17 lisward wrote:On July 17 2012 14:07 PhoenixDark wrote:
I don't think the MMA news has anything to do with Jessica per se. Boxer considered MMA his protege and seemed very invested in him becoming a truly great player and leader. But like nearly every GSL winner, MMA's play deteriorated shortly after his big win. GSL winners get a large sum of money, and given how young most are, it's not surprising that they seemingly become relaxed after winning, and decide to start spending the money (sure they buy their parents stuff, but they also clearly spend it on themselves). And while most of the GSL winners rebound eventually, some sooner than others, MMA has pretty much fallen off the map.
We were talking in the NASL thread about his heavy micro/aggression style going out of style as Terran became more macro oriented, and I think that's part of the reason he has fallen off. Another reason is likely due to practice. If he isn't showing the proper determination in practice, I could totally see Boxer attempting to demote him as a means of motivating/shaming him. But apparently it backfired...
I think we're going to see more of this. BW pros practiced under harsher and more concentrated circumstances than most SC2 players. That's not to say SC2 players don't practice, just that they aren't practicing as much as many BW teams do/did. Boxer is obviously from that old school mind set, and has witnessed players on his own former teams work very hard and ultimately reach great heights (iloveoov). I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to get MMA to that level, but MMA is simply not as motivated.
Joining a foreigner team offers great opportunity while rewarding laziness in many ways; if MMA were to join a major foreigner team, it's very unlikely he would "have" to practice hard, and would instead be flown from tournament to tournament enjoying the thrill of fans and winning money. I fear that if we continue to see moves like this, the Korean scene might begin to protect itself by cooperating less and less with foreign teams/tournaments. Lol falling off the map for 3 months makes you a lazy, lousy player? (3 months since iron squid win) Also, I didn't read the NASL thread, but you're wrong, MMA has fantastic multitasking, it's not like he just pose aggressively without macroing, his macro is very good as well, he isnt some gimmicky 2 base allin player, and of you knew what you were taking about you would have seen his macro games. Being aggressive and macroing is NOT mutually exclusive. Also, TvZ is leaning towards this 'micro- aggressive' game or whatever you call it. Players like QXC and Idra have commented on it, because of the queen buff the best way to play TvZ is bio tank, at least to early mid game. It's been more than three months actually, he has struggled all year. Yea he won Iron Squid but...meh. And I stand by my critique of his micro v macro play. The metagame has shifted, and while he's certainly good at macro I would argue he is no longer a top 5 Terran player, would might likely be a low top 10. So I'm not saying he's horrible, just that he has fallen off. I'm not saying he's lazy, I'm saying it's possible that this dispute is over practice and the high expectations Boxer has for him. There is no such thing as micro vs macro, because a good player has to be able to do both at the same time. It's something bad players made up in the past when they kept on losing in games. What do you mean by a macro game? What, turtle up at 3 base mech and pray that your 1A doesn't fail?
What in the world are you talking about? Some players are better or more oriented towards macro, others towards micro/timing attacks, others are pretty balanced.
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On July 17 2012 14:22 coverpunch wrote:
Given the decision to kick him out of the team house, I think it can only be a few things:
1) physically fighting someone else in the house
2) saying something really awful or making an unacceptable complaint
3) not practicing at all and distracting others
Is there any precedent for how esports teams typically handle physical fighting amongst players? On one hand that sounds like something that would warrant being kicked off the team, but then again I could imagine someone instead being demoted for it...
Still, I'm going to put my money on #3
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On July 17 2012 14:33 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:28 lisward wrote:On July 17 2012 14:22 PhoenixDark wrote:On July 17 2012 14:17 lisward wrote:On July 17 2012 14:07 PhoenixDark wrote:
I don't think the MMA news has anything to do with Jessica per se. Boxer considered MMA his protege and seemed very invested in him becoming a truly great player and leader. But like nearly every GSL winner, MMA's play deteriorated shortly after his big win. GSL winners get a large sum of money, and given how young most are, it's not surprising that they seemingly become relaxed after winning, and decide to start spending the money (sure they buy their parents stuff, but they also clearly spend it on themselves). And while most of the GSL winners rebound eventually, some sooner than others, MMA has pretty much fallen off the map.
We were talking in the NASL thread about his heavy micro/aggression style going out of style as Terran became more macro oriented, and I think that's part of the reason he has fallen off. Another reason is likely due to practice. If he isn't showing the proper determination in practice, I could totally see Boxer attempting to demote him as a means of motivating/shaming him. But apparently it backfired...
I think we're going to see more of this. BW pros practiced under harsher and more concentrated circumstances than most SC2 players. That's not to say SC2 players don't practice, just that they aren't practicing as much as many BW teams do/did. Boxer is obviously from that old school mind set, and has witnessed players on his own former teams work very hard and ultimately reach great heights (iloveoov). I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to get MMA to that level, but MMA is simply not as motivated.
Joining a foreigner team offers great opportunity while rewarding laziness in many ways; if MMA were to join a major foreigner team, it's very unlikely he would "have" to practice hard, and would instead be flown from tournament to tournament enjoying the thrill of fans and winning money. I fear that if we continue to see moves like this, the Korean scene might begin to protect itself by cooperating less and less with foreign teams/tournaments. Lol falling off the map for 3 months makes you a lazy, lousy player? (3 months since iron squid win) Also, I didn't read the NASL thread, but you're wrong, MMA has fantastic multitasking, it's not like he just pose aggressively without macroing, his macro is very good as well, he isnt some gimmicky 2 base allin player, and of you knew what you were taking about you would have seen his macro games. Being aggressive and macroing is NOT mutually exclusive. Also, TvZ is leaning towards this 'micro- aggressive' game or whatever you call it. Players like QXC and Idra have commented on it, because of the queen buff the best way to play TvZ is bio tank, at least to early mid game. It's been more than three months actually, he has struggled all year. Yea he won Iron Squid but...meh. And I stand by my critique of his micro v macro play. The metagame has shifted, and while he's certainly good at macro I would argue he is no longer a top 5 Terran player, would might likely be a low top 10. So I'm not saying he's horrible, just that he has fallen off. I'm not saying he's lazy, I'm saying it's possible that this dispute is over practice and the high expectations Boxer has for him. There is no such thing as micro vs macro, because a good player has to be able to do both at the same time. It's something bad players made up in the past when they kept on losing in games. What do you mean by a macro game? What, turtle up at 3 base mech and pray that your 1A doesn't fail? What in the world are you talking about? Some players are better or more oriented towards macro, others towards micro/timing attacks, others are pretty balanced.
God I hate it when people come in without reading the posts. What I'm saying is you can't SOLELY rely on one aspect, and there has never been a 'macro' or 'micro' oriented meta game, because macro and micro are MECHANICS. All the top players can do both extremely well, and MMA was NOT timing attack/allin oriented.
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I sincerely hope it doesn't involve Jessica. It seems like all past SlayerS drama has always been directly involved with her somehow.
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EPT
