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Over the last week since MLG Anaheim, a lot has come out about the player area at MLG and treatment from the MLG staff at the last event.
Bottom line is this: I love MLG and want to see it continue to get better. What can MLG do to improve this situation? What should be done? Hopefully if we can get some quality feedback around this subject we can see a change before MLG Raleigh.
Does MLG need to revise their rules? Is more training needed? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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This isn't really a matter of rules. It's a company trying to make money vs the little insignificant guys. Sure, you paid to compete and whatever, but they took your money knowing you'd never make it anyway, unless you were good/known/pro, etc. They want people to see Boxer, and spend more $$, not a random unknown dude.
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I don't know, I think MLG is just growing too quickly to really keep up.
There's exponentially more people, more games, more players, more coaches, more importance to the matches. So everyone wants to have the best performance possible, which includes coaching and teammates and stuff.
It's something that needs to be talked about.
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MLG's 'intimate access to players' is a win-win for them because they're the biggest show in NA, and it requires very little effort on their part. But, like these guys have said, it is very far from ideal.
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On June 16 2012 01:08 vnlegend wrote:
This isn't really a matter of rules. It's a company trying to make money vs the little insignificant guys. Sure, you paid to compete and whatever, but they took your money knowing you'd never make it anyway, unless you were good/known/pro, etc. They want people to see Boxer, and spend more $$, not a random unknown dude.
It's /at least/ a matter of rules, as well as floor plan layout, scheduling, and a number of other event operation issues. So let's think about potential solutions instead of theorycrafting about MLG's possible motivations.
- Extend roped off area behind player stations outward and add chairs for teammates/coaches/etc (so they can watch w/o completely restricting the view from outside the rope). Should be enough room for refs to traverse from station to station w/o interfering with teammate/coach spectating.
- Personally, I'd like to see a larger percentage of player stations - perhaps all of them at some point - have decently-sized LCD screens (42"?) mirroring player cams which are elevated above each respective player station. Think a "light" version of the feature stations in which the LCD screens are elevated but the player stations are still ground-level as they are now. If there's more space behind the player stations, then this would help ameliorate spectating issues from outside the rope. I know this would be expensive, but I think it'd be worth it in the long run.
- With extended area behind the player stations, more latitude could be given in terms of accommodating additional folks in the player area, so MLG could then grant additional "coach" badges and perhaps allow eliminated players the opportunity to stay in the player area as well.
Just my two cents.
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The players' experience should trump ALL other event concerns. If you can't take care of the players at your event, some other event will. If that means less chairs for the spectators to make the player area bigger, then so be it. Players > EVERYTHING ELSE.
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Interesting that all of these complains (which sound really awful tbh) come up now and not a few MLG's ago?
I would really like to hear a statement from an MLG official (Adam I'm looking at you!)
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On June 16 2012 02:25 Pimpmuckl wrote:
Interesting that all of these complains (which sound really awful tbh) come up now and not a few MLG's ago?
I would really like to hear a statement from an MLG official (Adam I'm looking at you!)
Previously there were other glaring concerns that were more visible. These and related space issues were brought up several times in the past though, in threads, blogs, and on itg/sotg etc. Hopefully it's loud enough this time, since they are really pretty major areas for improvement.
Sometimes I wonder if MLG is gradually becoming less receptive with success, it's almost inevitable-- it's definitely the trend with most similar things, but theres no evidence yet that this is true.
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Clearly MLG needs to get their shit straight. Letting competitors have more privileges would be a nice start. I hope they fix this. But I don't doubt it, in the past MLG has definitely been known to straighten out problems. It was probably a good idea to let this be known to everyone.
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On June 16 2012 02:25 Pimpmuckl wrote:
Interesting that all of these complains (which sound really awful tbh) come up now and not a few MLG's ago?
There's always issues - MLG has just fixed enough now that this is high on minds.
I can speculate two main reasons why players would want to hang around the players area
1) Privacy from the public
2) Supporting team mates
1) Can be fixed with a players lounge / warm up area.
2) Can be managed by allowing a limited number of people to sit behind stations.
If there's no player's lounge, it's no wonder that those seeking respite would want to stay in the pit as long as possible. Genuine team mates watching on a couple chairs, fine. But it's not fair on those still playing to have to deal with the area being used as a social lounge as well.
Here's the lounge from last year's Dreamhack Winter
![[image loading]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7155/6545073441_ebe5bd6f04_n.jpg)
Players Lounge by andytb, on Flickr
It was non discriminatory - if you were a registered player in any of the non-BYOC tournaments, you were allowed access to seating, snacks, drinks, a limited amount of warm up PCs and massage. I'd actually say it wasn't private enough, as the public could still look in, but hey. It meant that those who hung around the players area, which they were allowed to do, were those observing matches and not for a chat.
![[image loading]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6545102935_0bbb90c318_n.jpg)
dreamhack-060 by andytb, on Flickr
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Probably be easiest just to have a much bigger private players only lounge/area/practice room and make it so the only people allowed into the actual playing area are those that have been called up to set up for and play their match.
By 'easiest' I mean most straightforward for admins/officials to enforce to take away the ambiguousness of letting koreans stay but kicking out other players, who have paid the same entry fee, out.
As it stands now I do however agree with MLG admins kicking out players of the playing area who have already been knocked out of the tournament, as long as they enforce that rule for everybody no matter who they are.
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I think there are some reasons why the players are so exposed:
Showing all games to spectators: Not every game goes on the big screen, but we would like the option to watch them if we attend an MLG. However, to do so, MGL needs to mirror the view of the players on another screen. There are hard limits to how far they can put the spectators away from the players due to this. You can only lay down so much cable before you became a fire/tripping/code violation hazzard and this leads to liability and insurance. Every major event of this nature deals with this issue and there is only so much that can be done. This limits MGLs ability to seperate the players from the sepectators.
But, to be frank, who cares. MGL should double down and get staff to deal with the issue. A seperate room is not need, only 10 feet and a couple of staff members willing to be the bad guy. When someone starts yelling to Idra or Incontrol, these MLG staff just need to go up and ask them to not bother the players and let them do their thing. People may be upset, but only the unreasonable ones and there was no helping them. This is good for everyone because after one or two event, it will become standard. The players don't need to feel like jerks for turning down an hug or autograph. And the poor staff members who signed up for one of the worst jobs possible, well they get the gratitude of a bunch of professional players.
Players need their space. It doesn't need to be a lot, about just the distance from the the seats to the sidelines on a basket ball court. That is not a huge distance at all.
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Don't forget idra's take on it, he is talking more of MLG and WCS at same time but it falls in the same treating players like crap.
http://evilgeniuses.net/idras-thoughts-on-mlg-wcs/
After all without the players there would be no spectators and if big name players eventually stop going that will hurt MLG.
If this was still the beginning of starcraft 2 it wouldnt be such a big deal because most were unkown players but now there
are a lot of people that fans want to see and wont pay the money to watch the event stream or show up if they arent going
to be there.
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Guys please note that Blizzard also has responsibility for the way the situation was handled not all MLG's fault. IMO just create two playing area's for WCS and MLG. Increase the number of computers, more admins/staff, and just better planning.
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I think there should be a small(like 2 person wide) lane roped off surrounding the playing area in addition to the one that is already there. People using this lane MUST have a player pass or manager badge. This would move fans about 5 feet back from the playing area but would allow teammates and managers to have priority viewing and close proximity to players for support without clogging the actual player area.
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sometimes bigger isn't necessarily better... i think in the case of this MLG (I happen to attend both this and last year's Anaheim tournaments) they were simply overwhelmed by all that was going on over the three days. more people, more tournaments, more games compared to last year, I'm not quite sure they staffed accordingly.
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while i think it's important to understand play concerns... i feel like mlg is the best event because of the fans. to me, it's more important to think about how to make the event better for fans both attendee and viewers. money comes from the later (via advertising and fees).
players lounges seem like a good idea except that that means less player interaction for fans. of course players need their space, but what i'd be worried about with lounges is that players go there for the majority of the time and never "hangs out" among the fans.
one of my favorite experiences at mlg raleigh is where HerO was playing against DRG (i think) and the entire liquid team was sitting behind them among a ton of fans watching the games progress. few people bothered the liquid players at this time. they might chat with fans about the game/strategy. i think the best improvement might be to have more of these stands where people can gather around to watch their favorites play right in front of them.
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On June 16 2012 02:25 Pimpmuckl wrote:
Interesting that all of these complains (which sound really awful tbh) come up now and not a few MLG's ago?
I would really like to hear a statement from an MLG official (Adam I'm looking at you!)
Complains like these have been there since they started broadcasting sc2.. It's just that there were other much bigger problems they had to fix but now they fixed a lot of those these come up again.
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Allow players to stay in the playing area a maximum of X rounds after the player was eliminated. As a concrete example, consider a player eliminated in the Ro128. Then, he should be allowed to stay within the playing area until Ro32 matches end or Ro16 begins (I used 2 rounds after elimination for this example, Ro128 -> Ro64 -> Ro32). I know that MLG uses Winners/Losers bracket system so it might be a little different, but if I recall correctly the Loser's Bracket isn't even played until Saturday, when all of the Winner's Bracket is already over.
Since Pros tend to stay in the tournament longer. People who wanted to compete for fun tend to get eliminated earlier. The later rounds should be observable by more pros than casuals, but casuals still have the opportunity to observe. And as the matches get more and more intense, the players have more space around them.
An easy way to implement this is to give different colored wristbands for when a player was eliminated.
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I honestly think a lot of the player area problems has to do with the fact that MLG (championships) are pro/amateur events where anyone can enter by paying a not so expensive price. Honestly if these areas were pro only it would be easy to allow coaches/teammates in to help out. Although at this time i don't believe this is possible because the line between pro/amateur is very thin in most cases.
I am sorry if this sounds insensitive but i do not care about the player rights of random competitors that may or may not be even taking the competition seriously. As a spectator and a paying subscription holder i ONLY care about the comfort of players who will be there to take the tournament serious and show games that are competitive at top levels. This includes ALL up and coming players who are focusing on competition rather than just looking to stand over MKP shoulder while he is playing.
I think MLG is on the right path with PRO passes for players. I think possibly the qualifications for this pro pass are not quite sufficient enough yet. I also believe the access of said pass may not be enough yet either. If they iron out these details it would be perfectly possible to say a player with a pro pass can have 1 (or possibly more) person in the area with them at any time. They can't do this with regular player passes because than everyone is bringing in friends attempting to meet and ogle players.
One more thing: i do think it would also be helpful to separate the practice facilities from the tournament area. Don't get me wrong I understand the extra costs and logistics involved in this.
tl;dr : I agree that the player area needs to be better suited for player/player needs; however, i could care less about "casual" players paying the entrance fee simply as a ploy to get special access. Pro/players serious about becoming pro should get special treatment as they are why i PAY to tune in.
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I think ideally the competitor's pit should be moved to a separate room. This gets rid of all the sound distraction that many players complain about. Adding a number of observing stations to the main hall of the tournament allows fans to spectate players in competing in the player pit.
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It's a simple fact of providing people with credentials and then making sure security knows about credentials and who can be where.
There really isn't much more to it than that.
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This doesn't really concern anyone other than the players, teams and MLG. I don't see the need for a thread. MLG probably has it's rules for a reason which is to prevent cheating. Obviously that's the reason you would get asked to leave for taking pictures. Seems like you and incontrol just are flexin your power as public figures because you're mad that you got kicked out of the players area. It's quite unnecessary for incontrol to tweet about it and for you to make a thread because you could just be communicating your concerns to MLG directly. Taking it public just makes it seem like retribution.
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Less games, with a smaller tourney would solve all these issues. As it stands, people don't watch well over half the games played because so many are being played at the same time.
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8748 Posts
I'd like the player pit and lounge to be connected and designed to hold nearly every player that's competing at once. Make part of the player lounge go backstage? I think backstage at most venues is pretty spacious. If that's not possible, maybe start the floor plan from scratch. I'm sure a ton of thought and refinement has gone into the current floor plan but the event has evolved and there are new things being demanded of the floor plan.
I'd like there to be a bunch of 40in+ monitors surrounding the player pit showing matches (can be first person views of players). For example, stations 1-5 could have the best matches of the round with 10 corresponding monitors. Fans shouldn't have to strain to see a player's monitor. Players shouldn't be crowded by fans (this hasn't been a major issue for players afaik, fans are respectful, but it's a matter of atmosphere).
Stations 1 and 2, which are on a mini-stage with big monitors hanging above the players, allowing a crowd to watch more easily, are just copies of stations done for Halo. I don't think they are good for SC2 because playing SC2 is much more sensitive than playing Halo so whenever a ref or a player at the other station is walking on the stage, it's disruptive. Fans crowd the area and again that hasn't been a huge issue but it's a matter of atmosphere. Players should feel like they have a nice barrier and I think that's possible without causing fans to feel like they're too remote. I think because of the nature of the game, this wasn't an issue for Halo but it's a bit different for SC2. I think monitors around the player pit could serve the purpose of the mini-stage better.
I think the player pit should have an area designated for fan interaction. If a player just won a match that was on the monitors, he ought to be able to go mingle with the fans. I would hope it'd become a thing. Fans would know that the player is there specifically for them so the fans who do not want to be a disturbance to players can comfortably approach. When the player wants to leave for rest or the next match, it'd be natural to say bye and walk back into the player pit (as opposed to walking through the venue's open floor and having to decline 10 fans in a 50 foot walk).
Extra chairs in the player pit would be nice but definitely a luxury. There should be plenty of seating in the player lounge.
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On June 16 2012 04:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I'd like the player pit and lounge to be connected and designed to hold nearly every player that's competing at once. Make part of the player lounge go backstage? I think backstage at most venues is pretty spacious. If that's not possible, maybe start the floor plan from scratch. I'm sure a ton of thought and refinement has gone into the current floor plan but the event has evolved and there are new things being demanded of the floor plan.
I'd like there to be a bunch of 40in+ monitors surrounding the player pit showing matches (can be first person views of players). For example, stations 1-5 could have the best matches of the round with 10 corresponding monitors. Fans shouldn't have to strain to see a player's monitor. Players shouldn't be crowded by fans (this hasn't been a major issue for players afaik, fans are respectful, but it's a matter of atmosphere).
Stations 1 and 2, which are on a mini-stage with big monitors hanging above the players, allowing a crowd to watch more easily, are just copies of stations done for Halo. I don't think they are good for SC2 because playing SC2 is much more sensitive than playing Halo so whenever a ref or a player at the other station is walking on the stage, it's disruptive. Fans crowd the area and again that hasn't been a huge issue but it's a matter of atmosphere. Players should feel like they have a nice barrier and I think that's possible without causing fans to feel like they're too remote. I think because of the nature of the game, this wasn't an issue for Halo but it's a bit different for SC2. I think monitors around the player pit could serve the purpose of the mini-stage better.
I think the player pit should have an area designated for fan interaction. If a player just won a match that was on the monitors, he ought to be able to go mingle with the fans. I would hope it'd become a thing. Fans would know that the player is there specifically for them so the fans who do not want to be a disturbance to players can comfortably approach. When the player wants to leave for rest or the next match, it'd be natural to say bye and walk back into the player pit (as opposed to walking through the venue's open floor and having to decline 10 fans in a 50 foot walk).
Extra chairs in the player pit would be nice but definitely a luxury. There should be plenty of seating in the player lounge.
Floor planning sounds nice on paper. But who will pay for the large costs? And are there reports on whether tournament hosters are actually making an operating income? Staff are grunty probably because they are paid so shitty. What would happen if the floor was empty 3/4s for the year. Is it only for an eSports venue? Then that is a waste of money/space.
I doubt the executives will authorize a large budget for eSports which generate poor income for the company.
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On June 16 2012 04:22 RonNation wrote:
It's a simple fact of providing people with credentials and then making sure security knows about credentials and who can be where.
There really isn't much more to it than that.
That still didn't always work. We were given press passes and allowed in the player pit on Friday but not Saturday and Sunday. It really just boils down to the event security being inconsistent with who they let in. Not sure who they were getting their instructions from though.
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8748 Posts
On June 16 2012 05:06 MicroTastiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 04:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I'd like the player pit and lounge to be connected and designed to hold nearly every player that's competing at once. Make part of the player lounge go backstage? I think backstage at most venues is pretty spacious. If that's not possible, maybe start the floor plan from scratch. I'm sure a ton of thought and refinement has gone into the current floor plan but the event has evolved and there are new things being demanded of the floor plan.
I'd like there to be a bunch of 40in+ monitors surrounding the player pit showing matches (can be first person views of players). For example, stations 1-5 could have the best matches of the round with 10 corresponding monitors. Fans shouldn't have to strain to see a player's monitor. Players shouldn't be crowded by fans (this hasn't been a major issue for players afaik, fans are respectful, but it's a matter of atmosphere).
Stations 1 and 2, which are on a mini-stage with big monitors hanging above the players, allowing a crowd to watch more easily, are just copies of stations done for Halo. I don't think they are good for SC2 because playing SC2 is much more sensitive than playing Halo so whenever a ref or a player at the other station is walking on the stage, it's disruptive. Fans crowd the area and again that hasn't been a huge issue but it's a matter of atmosphere. Players should feel like they have a nice barrier and I think that's possible without causing fans to feel like they're too remote. I think because of the nature of the game, this wasn't an issue for Halo but it's a bit different for SC2. I think monitors around the player pit could serve the purpose of the mini-stage better.
I think the player pit should have an area designated for fan interaction. If a player just won a match that was on the monitors, he ought to be able to go mingle with the fans. I would hope it'd become a thing. Fans would know that the player is there specifically for them so the fans who do not want to be a disturbance to players can comfortably approach. When the player wants to leave for rest or the next match, it'd be natural to say bye and walk back into the player pit (as opposed to walking through the venue's open floor and having to decline 10 fans in a 50 foot walk).
Extra chairs in the player pit would be nice but definitely a luxury. There should be plenty of seating in the player lounge. Floor planning sounds nice on paper. But who will pay for the large costs? And are there reports on whether tournament hosters are actually making an operating income? Staff are grunty probably because they are paid so shitty. What would happen if the floor was empty 3/4s for the year. Is it only for an eSports venue? Then that is a waste of money/space. I doubt the executives will authorize a large budget for eSports which generate poor income for the company.
It seems like you don't know what MLG is or how it operates because I feel like your questions and concerns aren't really applicable. MLG's only business is eSports. They have a huge budget and have proven repeatedly that they can make costly adjustments if they yield a better experience for fans or players. They don't have their own venue but rather a bunch of trucks full of equipment and they rent out halls from convention centers across the US. They're all just big ass halls that fit MLG's floor plan, which has barriers of curtains, ropes and lines of booths as well as using the convention center's walls. There are limits on the sizes of the halls but MLG can arrange their equipment and stages however they like. I'm sure there are a ton of issues with designing the floor plan that I'm ignorant of so I can only express the shortcomings of the current plan and maybe they'll look into a redesign that deals with the new variables.
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Thanks so much for the discussion so far, everyone. The more talk and debate we can stir up on this topic, the more feedback MLG has to improve.
On June 16 2012 04:27 Doodsmack wrote:
This doesn't really concern anyone other than the players, teams and MLG. I don't see the need for a thread. MLG probably has it's rules for a reason which is to prevent cheating. Obviously that's the reason you would get asked to leave for taking pictures. Seems like you and incontrol just are flexin your power as public figures because you're mad that you got kicked out of the players area. It's quite unnecessary for incontrol to tweet about it and for you to make a thread because you could just be communicating your concerns to MLG directly. Taking it public just makes it seem like retribution.
The reason for the thread is not "retribution." This thread is to create a discussion and get public opinions. With this thread we can give healthy feedback to MLG so that the league can improve and be a better experience for players.
As for when I got kicked out... my players were warming up in Mortal Kombat right after the Soul Calibur finals. How could taking pictures of their faces while they are practicing be cheating? Come on, Dood. That's just silly 
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On June 16 2012 04:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I'd like the player pit and lounge to be connected and designed to hold nearly every player that's competing at once. Make part of the player lounge go backstage? I think backstage at most venues is pretty spacious. If that's not possible, maybe start the floor plan from scratch. I'm sure a ton of thought and refinement has gone into the current floor plan but the event has evolved and there are new things being demanded of the floor plan.
I'd like there to be a bunch of 40in+ monitors surrounding the player pit showing matches (can be first person views of players). For example, stations 1-5 could have the best matches of the round with 10 corresponding monitors. Fans shouldn't have to strain to see a player's monitor. Players shouldn't be crowded by fans (this hasn't been a major issue for players afaik, fans are respectful, but it's a matter of atmosphere).
Stations 1 and 2, which are on a mini-stage with big monitors hanging above the players, allowing a crowd to watch more easily, are just copies of stations done for Halo. I don't think they are good for SC2 because playing SC2 is much more sensitive than playing Halo so whenever a ref or a player at the other station is walking on the stage, it's disruptive. Fans crowd the area and again that hasn't been a huge issue but it's a matter of atmosphere. Players should feel like they have a nice barrier and I think that's possible without causing fans to feel like they're too remote. I think because of the nature of the game, this wasn't an issue for Halo but it's a bit different for SC2. I think monitors around the player pit could serve the purpose of the mini-stage better.
I think the player pit should have an area designated for fan interaction. If a player just won a match that was on the monitors, he ought to be able to go mingle with the fans. I would hope it'd become a thing. Fans would know that the player is there specifically for them so the fans who do not want to be a disturbance to players can comfortably approach. When the player wants to leave for rest or the next match, it'd be natural to say bye and walk back into the player pit (as opposed to walking through the venue's open floor and having to decline 10 fans in a 50 foot walk).
Extra chairs in the player pit would be nice but definitely a luxury. There should be plenty of seating in the player lounge.
I really like the idea of a player lounge/pit/fan interaction area. I think this, whatever they decide to do, should be the priority right now. Players being comfortable is the biggest concern anyone should have. If a player isn't in as optimal conditions as he can possibly be in, he won't give as good as games as he can. That is just the way it works. I've heard the idea of monitors in the player pit several times before, and really like it. Even if they didn't buy them all at once, I'm sure they could manage a way to add a few each event.
I also find the rule very strange that they don't want team mates talking in between games. It's a huge part of every sport I have ever seen. Coach/team interaction during down time is one of the defining moments of sports. Will a fighter beable to rally between rounds, will a team be able to come back from half time, etc etc. It makes it all the stranger to see MLG have a rule like that when I watch GSL and the coach and oftentimes a team mate will go in the booth literally every match. Hopefully that rule was just a one off thing that the ref's decided to enforce, and doesn't turn into MLG's extended series.
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I was at MLG with a manager badge and I spent a lot of time in the MLG player area. I'm friends with some of the officials and I was told "we are pretty strict on it at the start when all stations are full cuz we can't have a ton of people who aren't playing cluttering the area, but once it gets deep into MLG and there is a lot of empty space in here we relax on that policy."
I was standing right next to iNcontroL when he got asked to leave. I will say from an un-bias standpoint that it was kind of B.S. because there was so much empty space, there was no "need" to have him leave to make space or anything. I do understand that they have rules to enforce and if they are told to do something by their supervisors then they have to do it so it seems like something that needs to change from the top.
At the next MLG I expect that it won't be such an issue, they will either design a larger player area so they can be more relaxed on that rule or figure something else out so that everyone can have fun at MLG the whole time.
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I read IncontroLs thing on his experience, it makes me not want to ever attend an mlg. Also its weird to hear about behind the scenes things that are happening that you would never expect if you just watched the stream (Koreans arent told to leave but everyone else is? Really??) Seems way out of whack.
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On June 16 2012 12:47 Aveng3r wrote:
I read IncontroLs thing on his experience, it makes me not want to ever attend an mlg. Also its weird to hear about behind the scenes things that are happening that you would never expect if you just watched the stream (Koreans arent told to leave but everyone else is? Really??) Seems way out of whack.
Don't be a drama queen, you would attend an MLG if you had the chance lol.
I'm sure it's just a coincedence that two of the people who got kicked out of the player area are now the ones calling for "public discussion and debate." As if the input of people who've never been to an MLG has any worth. "Yeah well I've read your side of the story and you seem pretty convinced, so yeah cater to teh playerz!!1" As I said this is an issue between the players and MLG.
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I think by raising the costs of joining the tournament would reduce the number of players without cutting out those who would go regardless. This will remove the majority of joe-bronze players joining the tournament for the experience (I don't have a problem with people doing it, I wanted to be joe-platinum playing, personally) and allow for whatever cost increase is necessary to make the player pit more spacious, or whatever.
I like watching the player play in person, myself. I was standing behind Leenock in providence and it was truly an awesome experience. I want to see the no-names take on the pros, see the no-names take on each other, see competition plain and simple. I don't know how they could create that in any sort of reasonable way without changing everything around. Maybe increase the number of "mini stages" and then make the rest of the games played in a backstage pit, so this way you get a couple pros playing in front of a crowd, with a small area for teamates and coaches to watch (in seats would be nice) and maybe one stage with a random game with no-names too, just to give us the chance to see these potential diamonds in the rough. There are like 2 rows right now of players we don't see anyway, no reason to have all of that in front of the spectators. Hell you can have like 4 sets of booths where the huge player area is now, give tons of people the chance to play in booths over the weekend. using extra booths you keep the noise/distraction issue down to a minimum, utilize more of the walls and keep spectators/booths in the middle maybe?
Minibooths would also rectify the teammates/coaches issue. Just require the players to stay in the booth while the match is going on, and allow GSL calibur "ok he likes to do this, so this game maybe think about doing this" for 2 minutes or whatever. Press would stay outside of the booths for their pictures, which is plenty. Booths can open into a hallway leading to a player lounge so the loser doesn't need to turn down fans when they're unhappy, etc.
I think a change to the floor plan is necessary, but that's a huge undertaking, and honestly I wonder if this was brought to the attention of MLG before ours. I get the feeling that sundance would be "oh shit, you're unhappy with the player area EG/Liquid/coL/Quantic/whoever? What can we do to fix it, any ideas?" and would be receptive to the concerns at least. Hell if nothing else he'll certainly "get it". Creating a random thread without discussing it with MLG and stating that in the OP is kinda like trying to get the community to contact sponsors when you haven't given them a chance to even think about it.
I'm rambling, I know. To sum it all up, I think that yes something needs to be done, but without showing that you've done your due dilligence, this is very similar to the community calling to contact sponsors over a personality's actions before going to the team first. I don't think this is as bad, but it's certainly not good.
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On June 16 2012 12:52 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:47 Aveng3r wrote:
I read IncontroLs thing on his experience, it makes me not want to ever attend an mlg. Also its weird to hear about behind the scenes things that are happening that you would never expect if you just watched the stream (Koreans arent told to leave but everyone else is? Really??) Seems way out of whack. Don't be a drama queen, you would attend an MLG if you had the chance lol. I'm sure it's just a coincedence that two of the people who got kicked out of the player area are now the ones calling for "public discussion and debate." As if the input of people who've never been to an MLG has any worth. "Yeah well I've read your side of the story and you seem pretty convinced, so yeah cater to teh playerz!!1" As I said this is an issue between the players and MLG.
Right cause spectators have no room in the conversation oook bud lol From the sounds of it spectating is about as bad as being a player since it's sooo damn hard to even see anything that isn't on the mainstage which is a huge problem.
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MLG is great and ambitious, but I just don't find the 'speed marathon' tournament very appealing. Starcraft lends itself much better to amazing games when players have time to prepare builds, strats, etc, as opposed to a fighting game where it's much more tactical and spontaneous. If MLG really cared most about top game quality and player experience/comfort, they'd have a single location broadcasting on-site and help catalyze a geographic hub of esports in America (ideally in LA/SF to be convenient for Koreans).
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When I competed, I have never had any problems, however I can see how something like this could happen.
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I don't know about the rest of the venues, but at MLG Anaheim there was plenty of space to extend the competitor's area. There were huge gaps of space.
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Im really worried what Incontrol wrote about racisme! Something has to be done
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On June 16 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 05:06 MicroTastiC wrote:On June 16 2012 04:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I'd like the player pit and lounge to be connected and designed to hold nearly every player that's competing at once. Make part of the player lounge go backstage? I think backstage at most venues is pretty spacious. If that's not possible, maybe start the floor plan from scratch. I'm sure a ton of thought and refinement has gone into the current floor plan but the event has evolved and there are new things being demanded of the floor plan.
I'd like there to be a bunch of 40in+ monitors surrounding the player pit showing matches (can be first person views of players). For example, stations 1-5 could have the best matches of the round with 10 corresponding monitors. Fans shouldn't have to strain to see a player's monitor. Players shouldn't be crowded by fans (this hasn't been a major issue for players afaik, fans are respectful, but it's a matter of atmosphere).
Stations 1 and 2, which are on a mini-stage with big monitors hanging above the players, allowing a crowd to watch more easily, are just copies of stations done for Halo. I don't think they are good for SC2 because playing SC2 is much more sensitive than playing Halo so whenever a ref or a player at the other station is walking on the stage, it's disruptive. Fans crowd the area and again that hasn't been a huge issue but it's a matter of atmosphere. Players should feel like they have a nice barrier and I think that's possible without causing fans to feel like they're too remote. I think because of the nature of the game, this wasn't an issue for Halo but it's a bit different for SC2. I think monitors around the player pit could serve the purpose of the mini-stage better.
I think the player pit should have an area designated for fan interaction. If a player just won a match that was on the monitors, he ought to be able to go mingle with the fans. I would hope it'd become a thing. Fans would know that the player is there specifically for them so the fans who do not want to be a disturbance to players can comfortably approach. When the player wants to leave for rest or the next match, it'd be natural to say bye and walk back into the player pit (as opposed to walking through the venue's open floor and having to decline 10 fans in a 50 foot walk).
Extra chairs in the player pit would be nice but definitely a luxury. There should be plenty of seating in the player lounge. Floor planning sounds nice on paper. But who will pay for the large costs? And are there reports on whether tournament hosters are actually making an operating income? Staff are grunty probably because they are paid so shitty. What would happen if the floor was empty 3/4s for the year. Is it only for an eSports venue? Then that is a waste of money/space. I doubt the executives will authorize a large budget for eSports which generate poor income for the company. It seems like you don't know what MLG is or how it operates because I feel like your questions and concerns aren't really applicable. MLG's only business is eSports. They have a huge budget and have proven repeatedly that they can make costly adjustments if they yield a better experience for fans or players. They don't have their own venue but rather a bunch of trucks full of equipment and they rent out halls from convention centers across the US. They're all just big ass halls that fit MLG's floor plan, which has barriers of curtains, ropes and lines of booths as well as using the convention center's walls. There are limits on the sizes of the halls but MLG can arrange their equipment and stages however they like. I'm sure there are a ton of issues with designing the floor plan that I'm ignorant of so I can only express the shortcomings of the current plan and maybe they'll look into a redesign that deals with the new variables.
Yup, we already had a really nice thread last week going in detail how tournament organizers like MLG could improve their production quality, which touched base on a lot of the points you made.
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MLG generally takes feedback from the community very seriously. I think they'll take all of the concerns and constructive criticism into account for Raleigh.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Was asked to leave, left, heard Koreans were not being kicked out so walked back in and stayed. That was farily offensive to be honest... But they didn't say anything more after that.
I was annoyed that they wanted people out (because I was watching team mates play and hanging out with people I dont get to see very often, plus it's one of the few areas you can actually sit down during the later stages of the event), but if it had been a consistent "no pro-badge, not playing" ban then it would have been fine - the only really bad part was that they made no attempt of enforcing this on any Korean, pro-badge/eliminated or not, didn't matter.
I think this is the first bad experience I've had with MLG staff in ... quite a number of events now. They mostly seem to try pretty hard/pretty friendly about it when they have to ask someone to leave or something like that.
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On June 16 2012 01:55 delo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 01:08 vnlegend wrote:
This isn't really a matter of rules. It's a company trying to make money vs the little insignificant guys. Sure, you paid to compete and whatever, but they took your money knowing you'd never make it anyway, unless you were good/known/pro, etc. They want people to see Boxer, and spend more $$, not a random unknown dude. It's /at least/ a matter of rules, as well as floor plan layout, scheduling, and a number of other event operation issues. So let's think about potential solutions instead of theorycrafting about MLG's possible motivations. - Extend roped off area behind player stations outward and add chairs for teammates/coaches/etc (so they can watch w/o completely restricting the view from outside the rope). Should be enough room for refs to traverse from station to station w/o interfering with teammate/coach spectating. - Personally, I'd like to see a larger percentage of player stations - perhaps all of them at some point - have decently-sized LCD screens (42"?) mirroring player cams which are elevated above each respective player station. Think a "light" version of the feature stations in which the LCD screens are elevated but the player stations are still ground-level as they are now. If there's more space behind the player stations, then this would help ameliorate spectating issues from outside the rope. I know this would be expensive, but I think it'd be worth it in the long run. - With extended area behind the player stations, more latitude could be given in terms of accommodating additional folks in the player area, so MLG could then grant additional "coach" badges and perhaps allow eliminated players the opportunity to stay in the player area as well. Just my two cents.
I think the idea of extending the ropes back a bit is great because as of right now, sure, it is great to really see the monitors and such, but Spectatetors basically breathe down players' backs as they play, and there is little room for people within the ropes to observe. So things like chairs for the coaches and team members can only add to the excitement because then it is like watching the game with those guys anyways
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On June 19 2012 01:33 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Was asked to leave, left, heard Koreans were not being kicked out so walked back in and stayed. That was farily offensive to be honest... But they didn't say anything more after that.
I was annoyed that they wanted people out (because I was watching team mates play and hanging out with people I dont get to see very often, plus it's one of the few areas you can actually sit down during the later stages of the event), but if it had been a consistent "no pro-badge, not playing" ban then it would have been fine - the only really bad part was that they made no attempt of enforcing this on any Korean, pro-badge/eliminated or not, didn't matter.
I think this is the first bad experience I've had with MLG staff in ... quite a number of events now. They mostly seem to try pretty hard/pretty friendly about it when they have to ask someone to leave or something like that.
Yea, inconsistency is the worst.
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I have an idea for us asians.
We go to primezzang.com , purchase prime clan jerseys.
grow our hair out korean style
now we are allowed 24/7 in player area because we are apart of the prime clan.
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a lot of the complaining in the reddit thread was that MLG discriminates between who's let in the player area and who isn't. most of these posts advocated a "if i paid the same as incontrol then i should have the same access as him" attitude, which is fine.
at the same time, incontrol and other players seem to be arguing for the same kind of discrimination, because his personal perspective is that he gets a lot of attention when he's not in the player area and he wants to watch and support his teammates and friends. this is also fine.
so how does MLG manage these competing demands from amateurs and professionals while maintaining a consistent policy of who is allowed to go inside the ropes of the pit whenever they want? keep in mind they already have a pro lounge for their seeded pool players, and there isn't enough space/staff/money to provide a "not pro but still well known" player lounge.
there might also be an informal policy among the staff that the player pit would be an acceptable location for korean players, because they are all at a tournament where nobody is speaking their language and thus need a place with easy access to translators/staff who can help them figure out when and where they have to play next.
their options seem to be as follows:
1) allow all 144 competitors access to the small player pit whenever they want. this pleases the amateur group but crowds the player pit and is a headache for tournament organizers who have to worry about tournament integrity but want to still allow teams to support their players.
2.) allow nobody into the player pit after they've been eliminated. this pleases people who warrior for fairness and equality, but would piss off most of the players who can't watch and support their team. this is also impossible to enforce as there are too many entry points and you can't expect venue staff to recognize who is still in the tournament and who isn't.
are any of these two options better than what MLG is doing right now, considering that this community is adamantly against MLG choosing who is "important" and who isn't?
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On June 16 2012 04:27 Doodsmack wrote:
This doesn't really concern anyone other than the players, teams and MLG.
I can understand why you would say this, as it's only people in those groups that have been affected by this treatment, however, as some of the suggestions involve MLG spending more money on the event to solve the problem, the suggested solutions bring an impact on others, such as MLG's costs which, as true in any customer / business relationship, are passed on to the customer. Some of you guys that think MLG is a big company with a big budget to be spent on appeasing players to make them happy are pretty naive. MLG won't spend a single dollar to make players happy if they don't expect that investment to make them money. Period.
I'm looking through the thread and haven't seen a suggestion of paying for the additional costs of any suggestion by taking it out of the prize pool. Only increasing MLG's cost with no shared cost to the players. Only MLG and their customers.
edit:
But if you want the ultimate solution, then the teams should get together and form their own "MLG entity" and do it better than MLG. That way, everyone would have a utopia, everyone would be happy, and e-sports would explode, since everybody knows how to do things better than MLG. Let's see how that works out.
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I have to say.... MLG event is so much nicer than Comiket. No bathroom break during 3hr BO3? The bathroom line there is 3hr. It's a frigging huge event with a lot of people over a long period of time. Everyone needs to make some concessions, including the staff, competitor and viewers. Staff should not treat others rudely, but at the same time, I saw way more problems with unreasonable attendees. MLG (and every other tournament organizer) should continue to improve the experience there. On the other hand, if you can't handle been at an event with all those people for long time, with limited space and accommodations, you probably should stay at home and watch the stream.
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On June 18 2012 13:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I don't know about the rest of the venues, but at MLG Anaheim there was plenty of space to extend the competitor's area. There were huge gaps of space.
Same thing at Columbus
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On June 18 2012 13:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I don't know about the rest of the venues, but at MLG Anaheim there was plenty of space to extend the competitor's area. There were huge gaps of space.
I'm not an event expert, but I can imagine the fire codes are strict with that many people in attendance. It can and probably will be extended for Raleigh, but I'm sure they have to work within odd restrictions.
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EPT
