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You have to provide some kind of evidence/proof (screenshots/replays etc.) if you are going to accuse somebody. Additionally, a supporting comment of what people should be looking for and when will be necessary if you are posting replays/evidence. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13431 Posts
On April 12 2015 05:41 Heyoka wrote: lol I think that we should completely ignore Winter if we don't like him instead of hunting him. If you are THAT worried about him hacking you will probably need to look for more in game replay type stuff and not worry about watching his vods :/ Also if it wasn't for your cry wolf attitude all the time, I would consider your points way more. But as it is dude, I can't take it seriously. I mean a 2 hour analysis on your stream is just crazy man. Crazy. | ||
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Jade
Poland289 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 05:41 Heyoka wrote: lol ? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 05:44 ZeromuS wrote: I think that we should completely ignore Winter if we don't like him instead of hunting him. If you are THAT worried about him hacking you will probably need to look for more in game replay type stuff and not worry about watching his vods :/ Also if it wasn't for your cry wolf attitude all the time, I would consider your points way more. But as it is dude, I can't take it seriously. I mean a 2 hour analysis on your stream is just crazy man. Crazy. Do you think i care what you think at all? No i do not. Second of all, a hack is a hack. I do not give a fuck who it is. I posted the data, people can look at it themselves. If you do not like me that is perfectly fine. I provided data for this thread on a game where it looks like someone is blatantly hacking by seeing invisible units through fog of war and repeatedly waypointing units on their pathing. Look at it yourself. As for crying wolf, you're absolutely wrong on that as well. I have played many people that were later found out to be hackers, many from the people that changed their names to IMBAQQ, as well as a bunch of others, and i was also one of the people that provided evidence when spades was hacking a while back when everyone thought it was possible but had no proof. Edit 2: Did you read my post or just skim over it? I did replay analysis on the replay showing obvious evidence. I cross referenced it with his VOD because i was curious, and a lot of his "reactions" or off screen looks seemed to match up with time stamps i had initially found suspicious from my initial replay analysis. I listed it here because i thought it was interesting and was another piece of evidence. | ||
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Promised_pain
Finland61 Posts
lol | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
I have played many people that were later found out to be hackers When you're crying hacks every time you lose, you're bound to be right once or twice. | ||
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TheScriptan
Lithuania152 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 05:56 nkr wrote: When you're crying hacks every time you lose, you're bound to be right once or twice. What? Are you one of those that spews this bullshit? I rarely ever cry hacks on stream if ever any more. 1-2 months back i played a ton of players from IMBAQQ clan on my stream, as well as a few other random barcodes that were maphackers. Stop spewing your ad hominem bullshit "OH HE CRIES HACKS EVERY 5 SEC ON STREAM" when it is not true. Look at the evidence otherwise please do not even post in this thread. | ||
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SepheronSC
1 Post
On April 12 2015 05:52 avilo wrote: Do you think i care what you think at all? No i do not. Second of all, a hack is a hack. I do not give a fuck who it is. I posted the data, people can look at it themselves. If you do not like me that is perfectly fine. I provided data for this thread on a game where it looks like someone is blatantly hacking by seeing invisible units through fog of war and repeatedly waypointing units on their pathing. Look at it yourself. As for crying wolf, you're absolutely wrong on that as well. I have played many people that were later found out to be hackers, many from the people that changed their names to IMBAQQ, as well as a bunch of others, and i was also one of the people that provided evidence when spades was hacking a while back when everyone thought it was possible but had no proof. Just like parting, polt, and demuslim were hacking? You spent 2 hours talking about this on stream (plus who knows how long analyzing the replay + VODs) and all you showed was where winter was clicking during your game. While you have provided proof of legitimate hackers before, you accuse almost every single one of your opponents of stream cheating/sniping or map/production tab hacking (or call them "psychics" when you dont want to say it outright). You suffer from a high degree of paranoia when it comes to this game and it really cant be healthy to obsess so hard. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13431 Posts
On April 12 2015 05:52 avilo wrote: Do you think i care what you think at all? No i do not. Second of all, a hack is a hack. I do not give a fuck who it is. I posted the data, people can look at it themselves. If you do not like me that is perfectly fine. I provided data for this thread on a game where it looks like someone is blatantly hacking by seeing invisible units through fog of war and repeatedly waypointing units on their pathing. Look at it yourself. As for crying wolf, you're absolutely wrong on that as well. I have played many people that were later found out to be hackers, many from the people that changed their names to IMBAQQ, as well as a bunch of others, and i was also one of the people that provided evidence when spades was hacking a while back when everyone thought it was possible but had no proof. Edit 2: Did you read my post or just skim over it? I did replay analysis on the replay showing obvious evidence. I cross referenced it with his VOD because i was curious, and a lot of his "reactions" or off screen looks seemed to match up with time stamps i had initially found suspicious from my initial replay analysis. I listed it here because i thought it was interesting and was another piece of evidence. Later tonight, I will give it a better chance. I saw some of your VOD previously and honestly some of your freak outs at the start weren't that special. You claimed he saw a probe leave your natural to the third but it crossed through other army units. So unless hacks now highlight workers a different colour from army units from your opponent on the minimap, I don't see how he could have turned his phoenix upon seeing a single probe move through and past your army (when he initially adjusted the phoenix direction). I have nothing against you directly, i just think sometimes that you play up the whole hacker thing for the stream which is fine, but as a side effect, I have a hard time taking every claim to hacking you take seriously. I think you need to collect far more replay support before I can completely aggree with you since this all appears to be from one replay? Also when it comes to 2 monitors and the fact he does interact with chat a lot who can say what his habits are when looking side to side? Thats the hard part about the 2 monitor thing. I know my habits for 2 screens when working, i know my habits for when i look in the rear view mirror when i drive (even if not 100% safe). Sometimes you do X action and look at Y place. It becomes second nature. If he always looks to the side when changing his control group selections (or does it often) i think a lot of your analysis falls apart  | ||
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richlol
28 Posts
There are overlays that reproduce a full minimap and even units on the main screen, as well as their intended movement destination, without it being displayed by OBS. Set OBS to record your "Game Screen" and it will only stream the SC2 process irregardless if you're windowed or have the hack overlay on. You can also just have a second screen and place the minimap overlay on that screen (what Avilo is suggesting, I suppose). A look at the hacking sites implies that these overlays are used just as frequently as your normal "inject" maphacks and therefore make streaming your game as proof of not hacking irrelevant. A good player with experience using a hack will have developed ways to try and hide that hack. These hackers will not blindlessly and blatantly counter your build/movements. Instead what one must look for in the replays is player behavior that by itself is probably not proof of hacking, but when combined with a game or several games of similarly suspicious behavior, would be enough to lead a reasonable person to believe that that person is most likely hacking. It's easy to post replays of people who don't even take the effort to hide their hack. The real challenge is to go after the big fish who take all the effort to hide it -- those are the most rewarding :D | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
Yeah it may be a bit OTT to analyse things to this level, but equally it has to be done. The days of hackers being idiots and clicking on units in the fog of war, or doing obvious things are gone, so if there's suspicion it requires this level of over-analysis to pinpoint. Frankly it gets annoying sometimes. If you want to disagree with him on anything fair play, but it's lazy to say 'avilo always complains' and post your opinion without even watching what he says or the evidence provided. Exactly the same with his LoTV impressions video, which was actually pretty enthusiastic about the game. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 06:04 ZeromuS wrote: Later tonight, I will give it a better chance. I saw some of your VOD previously and honestly some of your freak outs at the start weren't that special. You claimed he saw a probe leave your natural to the third but it crossed through other army units. So unless hacks now highlight workers a different colour from army units from your opponent on the minimap, I don't see how he could have turned his phoenix upon seeing a single probe move through and past your army (when he initially adjusted the phoenix direction). I have nothing against you directly, i just think sometimes that you play up the whole hacker thing for the stream which is fine, but as a side effect, I have a hard time taking every claim to hacking you take seriously. I think you need to collect far more replay support before I can completely aggree with you since this all appears to be from one replay? Also when it comes to 2 monitors and the fact he does interact with chat a lot who can say what his habits are when looking side to side? Thats the hard part about the 2 monitor thing. I know my habits for 2 screens when working, i know my habits for when i look in the rear view mirror when i drive (even if not 100% safe). Sometimes you do X action and look at Y place. It becomes second nature. If he always looks to the side when changing his control group selections (or does it often) i think a lot of your analysis falls apart I even said before i analyzed the replay that the first suspicious actions in the game could be considered circumstantial and be deemed as "normal" actions or just some luck combined with normal play patterns. What i believe is in no way shape or form circumstantial and can only be done by a hack is following observers (cloaked units obviously) through the fog of war with the waypointed command that happens 5-6 times during this game, and always is along the path of an observer. Same goes for the pin point accuracy click onto a cloaked unit that a player has no vision of, has never seen on screen, and has this same suspicious sequence of commands. As for playing up the hacker thing, there were times when it was happening a lot (vs imbaqq idiots n such) and i would then often times joke "ah another psychic" etc because i was playing these people very often over the course of 1-2 months. I would not go through a replay like this and check it and go through the effort of posting the time stamps and the rest if i did not feel it was solid evidence and objective evidence. What i posted and showed with the observers in the replay from 11:14-11:30 is the only reason i believe there was something being used this game. As for the probe, the one i am speaking of is at 7:30 seconds in the replay in which he turns his phoenixes, his screen locks, and then he follows my probe with clicks and adjusts his click pathing to my probe through the fog of war. As for the VOD, as i said i only included that because i was curious if there would be something that would match up with my initial timestamps from my replay analysis, and from what i found almost every time stamp i initially had wrote down corresponded with a certain movement with his eyes in the VOD. The VOD is not the main evidence - the waypoint command and perfect click to the observer that is never seen on the map from off screen at 11:29-11:30 with the same suspicious waypoint command is the main thing that led me to even submit this evidence, and made me think that there is a hack being used in this game. edit again: If the only evidence i had were my "suspicions" of the initial things in the game that could have been circumstantial...i would never have posted this and i would have let it go and thought that maybe i myself was overthinking it and just mad at the loss. But then when i watched the last parts of the replay off stream with a cooler head and i noticed the observer pathing being tracked by those suspicious way pointed commands i felt it was solid enough that it was worth myself reporting and getting other people here in this thread to look at as well. It seemed very blatant to me | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On April 12 2015 05:58 avilo wrote: What? Are you one of those that spews this bullshit? I rarely ever cry hacks on stream if ever any more. 1-2 months back i played a ton of players from IMBAQQ clan on my stream, as well as a few other random barcodes that were maphackers. Stop spewing your ad hominem bullshit "OH HE CRIES HACKS EVERY 5 SEC ON STREAM" when it is not true. Look at the evidence otherwise please do not even post in this thread. A year ago when Polt streamed for 2 weeks or so he played you with barcode. after you lost you called him a maphacker. there were numerous people in your chat telling you just played polt but you were CONVINCED it was a maphacker. really no reason to take you seriously. you also over analyse every single "weird" move as a maphacker move. as for winter looking to the left of his screen every few seconds, he was looking at his minmap like any semi-decent player should do. which apparently you are not o.O | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 06:12 richlol wrote: It's not against the law/ToS to google hacks and look at what capabilities the current hacks have. I'd suggest going to those sites so you at least have a better idea of what people are capable of and thus what to look for when you're analyzing replays. There are overlays that reproduce a full minimap and even units on the main screen, as well as their intended movement destination, without it being displayed by OBS. Set OBS to record your "Game Screen" and it will only stream the SC2 process irregardless if you're windowed or have the hack overlay on. You can also just have a second screen and place the minimap overlay on that screen (what Avilo is suggesting, I suppose). A look at the hacking sites implies that these overlays are used just as frequently as your normal "inject" maphacks and therefore make streaming your game as proof of not hacking irrelevant. A good player with experience using a hack will have developed ways to try and hide that hack. These hackers will not blindlessly and blatantly counter your build/movements. Instead what one must look for in the replays is player behavior that by itself is probably not proof of hacking, but when combined with a game or several games of similarly suspicious behavior, would be enough to lead a reasonable person to believe that that person is most likely hacking. It's easy to post replays of people who don't even take the effort to hide their hack. The real challenge is to go after the big fish who take all the effort to hide it -- those are the most rewarding :D What you just mentioned about a secondary screen with the mini-map overlay is exactly what i believe occurred during this game. Once again, i think this because i initially did all of my replay analysis, wrote down time stamps i felt were suspicious, and then cross referenced it to winter's VOD because i was curious if anything he did would match-up with my initial analysis... ...and it seems like there is some evidence there of that that he is looking off somewhere to possibly a mini-map with the location of my units to avoid them repeatedly. There is even a timestamp i listed which is the one time he does not look off to the side at a potential mini-map, it's after he kills a probe at my third, and that is the one time he directly flies into my units afterwards and doesn't avoid them with a successful harrass. Coincidence? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On April 12 2015 06:21 Xinzoe wrote: A year ago when Polt streamed for 2 weeks or so he played you with barcode. after you lost you called him a maphacker. there were numerous people in your chat telling you just played polt but you were CONVINCED it was a maphacker. really no reason to take you seriously. you also over analyse every single "weird" move as a maphacker move. as for winter looking to the left of his screen every few seconds, he was looking at his minmap like any semi-decent player should do. which apparently you are not o.O Please stop posting this bullshit. It has nothing to do with the game and evidence that i have provided for this thread. If you want to contribute to the thread, watch the replay, look at the evidence, analyze it yourself. If you are going to look at the evidence, i suggest mainly looking from 11:14-11:30 in the replay as this is when he pin point does the waypoint command to an observer OFF-SCREEN that he has never seen the entire game. | ||
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
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breath
United States199 Posts
I also agree with ZeromuS points above, winter interacts with his chat so looking over at another monitor is not that strange. Also watching the video if i'm not mistaken winters camera is not flipped so him looking right is him really looking left, he spends most of his time looking looking to the right and middle left of his screen as far as i can tell, which is very normal for where his units are at on the screen. Since you keep bringing up the 11:14-11:30 time frame, he moves his units to his third to protect what should be active phoenix from you, you can clearly see him click on the map to move his units in anticipation that you would move your phoenix in, (at which point he is protecting his second, third, and main from phoenix). Again very normal PvP Movements. To me there is nothing in this replay that makes me think wintersc is hacking. | ||
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richlol
28 Posts
His screen is massive and looking at the minimap requires turning of the head, or He's looking at another screen. That's really all that can be drawn from that head turn. Winter could settle this issue and stream a "behind-the-head" view of his setup as he's playing at a high level (not smurfing in gold league), but that puts the burden of proof on him as the accused. | ||
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Promised_pain
Finland61 Posts
On April 12 2015 06:48 richlol wrote: The angle with which Winter looks to his left means one of two things: His screen is massive and looking at the minimap requires turning of the head, or He's looking at another screen. That's really all that can be drawn from that head turn. Winter could settle this issue and stream a "behind-the-head" view of his setup as he's playing at a high level (not smurfing in gold league), but that puts the burden of proof on him as the accused. Good suggestion. I have no doubt he will do that and we can laugh at Avilo once again. | ||
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