A ton of pro gamers are streaming their games these days. Heck, nowadays, it is harder to think of a pro that does not stream than to come up with one that does. And that's not only true for just our foreign heroes, either. A year ago it was a rare and special event to see a Korean pro stream his games, but today it is commonplace to watch our Code S favorites play their ladder games live on stream. But who is the most popular of them all? Who is getting the most viewers? That's what I started to ask myself after I peeked at various player's viewer numbers, where I realized quickly that being a strong, successful player does not at all correlate with getting a lot of viewers. My curiosity piqued, and I started gathering some data.
I'm not a programmer, but with some Google-fu I managed to hack together a python script that would periodically (every 15 minutes) check teamliquid.net, gather data for every single streamer currently streaming and save it all in a simple sqlite database. Another script takes the data and creates a table with the most popular streamers, ordered by their average stream views. I let my sqlite database grow for a bit more than a month now, and today I want to present my results to y'all.
It should be noted first, though, that these numbers are not the ultimate answer to my question. There are many factors playing into these numbers. For instance, a popular player who streams less often is generally getting higher viewer numbers than an equally popular player streaming regularly. And a player who streams during events such as MLG or IPL will get much less viewers than normal, lowering his average. It should also be noted that, currently, the results include all streams of a given player, even if said player did not always play SC2 on his stream (Destiny regularly plays LoL, for instance, and a SlayerS tournament was stremed through Boxer's account at one point). My results do not take all of this into account. Still, I think the numbers give us a very good overview over the streamer's popularity.
I also have average viewer numbers for other streams on TL.net, which include events (dreamhack, NASL, Iron Squid), casters (khaldor, totalbiscuit) and of course non SC2 related streams (DOTA2, LoL, BW). But it turned out that creating a ranking of these streams is not as useful as it first seemed. Iron Squid, for instance, restreamed their event multiple times, significantly lowering their average viewers. Khaldor streams vastly different events, and getting an average out of these different events does not seem all that useful. And the big events (MLG, GSL, IPL) do not let us in on their viewer numbers at all, creating large holes in the gathered data. I can still provide a full table with all streams, though, if anyone's interested.
For this table, I inluded every stream that is operated by a single individual, playing Starcraft 2. It includes both featured and non-featured streams. I did not include streams that, in total, have streamed for less than one hour during the last month, as well as those operated by teams (the Korean pro teams do this), but they would not have made it into the list anyhow.
So, without further ado, here's the top 50 streamers, with data gathered from 22.03.12 until today: A few notes about the lesser known streamers (which I define as "I did not know who they were beforehand" ):
"Hui ." is a Taiwanese player playing for the team Xpec Ironmen. And yes, he really does stream this much. Edit:
On May 01 2012 18:55 PeterDLai wrote: I'm a moderator for Hui's stream and I can confirm that multiple Xpec IronMen players share his stream. The main ones that I've seen play on his stream include:
Hui, team captain of XpecIM, Protoss player JoJo, a Zerg player on XpecIM active roster Ian, a Zerg trainee for XpecIM Manner, coach of XpecIM, Protoss player
Occasionally he will also show/commentate clanwars or TeSL (Taiwan eSports League) live on the stream as well. Most of his viewers are from Taiwan, but Hui does interact with English speaking viewers as well. The other people who share his stream focus mainly on the Taiwanese audience though...
Thanks for this, PeterDLai!
MaximusBlack is a Canadian player for CheckSix Gaming.
Honor. is a German player playing for Alien Invasion.
All other names should be pretty self explanatory.
I dare say that the number one spot is not terribly surprising. Idra has been streaming forever, longer than most people on the list, and he has quite the fanbase. Stephano did at times manage to take over the number one spot, though, showing that he is still immensely popular. My initial assumption was that being a Code S player does not automatically earn you a lot of viewers, and the numbers support this. There are a lot of Koreans out there that did not even make it into the list, and big names like NaDa or Jjiakji are only found in the lower ranks. Also, lack of success in tournaments does not have to equal low viewer numbers, either. TLO is found in the top 10, despite his beard growing longer every day, while Destiny, Incontrol and Nony are also doing quite well, outranking the just mentioned Koreans by far.
So what does it take to get the viewers? Dragon and CatZ are known for their entertaining streams, for instance, and they're doing reasonably well. Polt is a beast in the game, and he, too, is doing reasonably well. But, in the end it seems to be the combination of personality and skill that draws in the crowds. Everyone knows Idra's rage, White-Ra's Special Tactics or MC's antics, but they are also among the world's top players, and it's that combination that makes them one of the most popular streamers around.
So there you go. I hope this data provided some insight and entertainment to you guys! I am still gathering data, and I'm thinking about turning this into a regular feature, with new average viewer numbers presented maybe once a month. If you'd like that, please say so in your comments!
Thanks for the stats! Based on what I've been seeing recently Stephano will start to pull ahead of IdrA I think. It helps to be good at the game but I think being famous is more important to have lots of viewers.
Interesting write up, but I'm not surprised by the data. The popularity of streamers probably also depend on frequency. For example, NaDa shouldn't only be getting an average of 751 viewers but he probably only streams during weird times with no schedule.
Personally, I don't understand why Idra is the most popular. His builds are pretty generic and boring, but I guess people like the drama.
I think most of it is whether or not you're a foreigner. Most people want to see how their foreigners are doing and the streamer will get more views. I've seen a lot of good korean players barely break 1000
On May 01 2012 03:58 valaki wrote: What? " with data gathered from 22.03.12 until today:"
That's 28 days, which are 672 hours. And Hui streamed 501. Wut?
EDIT: 38 days, and 912 hourse rather....still more than half of it..impressive.
Yeah, that guy streams a ton. At first I wasn't sure myself if my data was correct or not. I'm still not sure if it's really the same guy streaming all the time or if it's all live, though.
I think it's pretty wierd how foreigners are able to so easily beat koreans, even if they don't do any more interaction or talking on stream than them. Especially when skill is factored in. Though I suppose that's the importance of having viewers know the streamer's personality, and that personality being fun of course.
Personally I think you should definitely post this every month or so, since nobody else is doing this afaik.
Nice that somebody finally did this. Not too surprised with the results near the top of the list, whenever I look either IdrA or Stephano will carry a good 8-9k if not more. Nice write up, would like to see more of these in the future!
At least one of your numbers is wrong because I remember over spring break when Stephano was streaming before the Lone Star Cup he had AT LEAST 18k viewers, but I think he even got over 20k at one point.
Good effort nonetheless and accurate enough I suppose.
On May 01 2012 03:54 Stanlot wrote: Man, I miss Cella's stream.
When was the last time he streamed? I started watching his stream March 5, 2011 after everyone went from HuK's stream to Cella's when HuK went offline, and after a few months he was having troubles with streaming due to lag and it seems to me he has stopped ever since... :S
I never see his stream online anymore T.T.
Too bad because it was the best stream I've ever watched
Would be interesting to see those numbers translated into $ figures. Of course, that's dependant on the number of commercials they run...but we could always use an estimate for that.
On May 01 2012 04:13 Seldentar wrote: At least one of your numbers is wrong because I remember over spring break when Stephano was streaming before the Lone Star Cup he had AT LEAST 18k viewers, but I think he even got over 20k at one point.
Good effort nonetheless and accurate enough I suppose.
That's entirely possible. My script checks TL.net every 15 minutes, so the 20k viewers could have happened in a 15 minute time frame for my script to miss it. Another possibility would be TL.net itself not displaying the viewer numbers accurately. If you hover your mouse over a stream name you get the current viewers of a stream. That's the numbers I work with. If you happen to have the exact date, I could check my log and see what it says, though.
EDIT: Also note that, as I said in the OP, I started gathering data on 22.03., it's of course entirely possible (and likely) that the various streamers have had higher peak viewer numbers before that.
Having skill and personality helps, but that's not why IdrA and Stephano are that ahead of everyone else. Look at the 1st and 2nd place and compare that to the 3rd-10th places. The average viewers and peak viewers drop by >half for the latter. IdrA and Stephano are not just the best streamers, they are the best streamers by a very large margin.
IMO, IdrA and Stephano have one thing in common - they have the highest amount of exposure and hype in the foreigner's scene. IdrA because of his bm, and because he *was* once the biggest name in Western eSports and has an enormous fan base. Stephano because he has a great personality, and because he *is* the biggest name in Western eSports, which also gives him an enormous fan base.
But both are Zerg, too - and Zerg is fun to watch on stream. Are Naniwa and Thorzain going to be able to get the same viewer count?
On May 01 2012 04:22 TheRealPaciFist wrote: My current fav to watch, Rainbow, not even on list!
He didn't quite make it. Rainbow currently has an average viewer number of 472 (peak 1897). There is a ton of well known players who did not even come close to making it into the top 50.
Very nice! Not at all surprised with the top ten, although I didn't expect DeMusliM to be quite as high. Happy for him though
Only 3 Koreans in the top ten (MKP, MC, Hero). That's pretty interesting. Personality over ability level is definitely valued when it comes to streaming (although, obviously, none of the Most Watched Players are scrubs!).
On May 01 2012 04:13 Seldentar wrote: At least one of your numbers is wrong because I remember over spring break when Stephano was streaming before the Lone Star Cup he had AT LEAST 18k viewers, but I think he even got over 20k at one point.
Good effort nonetheless and accurate enough I suppose.
That's entirely possible. My script checks TL.net every 15 minutes, so the 20k viewers could have happened in a 15 minute time frame for my script to miss it. Another possibility would be TL.net itself not displaying the viewer numbers accurately. If you hover your mouse over a stream name you get the current viewers of a stream. That's the numbers I work with. If you happen to have the exact date, I could check my log and see what it says, though.
EDIT: Also note that, as I said in the OP, I started gathering data on 22.03., it's of course entirely possible (and likely) that the various streamers have had higher peak viewer numbers before that.
I was watching the stream when Stephano broke 19k, but if im not mistaken that was before the Lone Star Clash and thus before your script started recording the number of viewers, i dont think your script is wrong. However, Team Liquid is pretty slow on updating viewer numbers, often lagging about 2k behind, it's better to get them directly from twitch.
This data highlights what I consider to be the biggest difference between LoL as a spectator sport and SC2. In LoL, for the longest time (before they moved into a Korean team house) I could log on pretty much any time of day and watch CLG play. They were dedicated and committed to providing stream content. Also about half the time (more with personalities like SV and less with some of the shy guys) they would not just be playing with music but also giving play by play commentary and Q+A. Sure they are doing it for the money but they also realize that being available personally makes people get emotionally invested. The closest thing SC2 has had to this was Destiny back when he was first starting and look how well it has worked for him.
SC2 will never reach its full potential if we keep propagating the myth that all pros need to do is play good games.
On May 01 2012 04:13 Seldentar wrote: At least one of your numbers is wrong because I remember over spring break when Stephano was streaming before the Lone Star Cup he had AT LEAST 18k viewers, but I think he even got over 20k at one point.
Good effort nonetheless and accurate enough I suppose.
That's entirely possible. My script checks TL.net every 15 minutes, so the 20k viewers could have happened in a 15 minute time frame for my script to miss it. Another possibility would be TL.net itself not displaying the viewer numbers accurately. If you hover your mouse over a stream name you get the current viewers of a stream. That's the numbers I work with. If you happen to have the exact date, I could check my log and see what it says, though.
EDIT: Also note that, as I said in the OP, I started gathering data on 22.03., it's of course entirely possible (and likely) that the various streamers have had higher peak viewer numbers before that.
I was watching the stream when Stephano broke 19k, but if im not mistaken that was before the Lone Star Clash and thus before your script started recording the number of viewers, i dont think your script is wrong. However, Team Liquid is pretty slow on updating viewer numbers, often lagging about 2k behind, it's better to get them directly from twitch.
It is better, yes, but there are so many streamers that it's not really feasible with my limited programming knowledge. The number of streamers in my database is a four figure one, checking them individually every 15 minutes seems like quite a task (especially since there are a handful of different stream platforms that are being used). Maybe I'll have a look at the various APIs of the platforms and see if I could get the numbers directly from them when I have the time.
Every time I check out Huis' stream , it seems to be the same guy. I think he does switch out with members of his team though. I dont know taiwanese but it's still funny to watch.
Also I think the code S players are lower not because of their personalitys but because of the amount they stream. Jjakji only streaming a few hours doesn't give them a chance to build up.
On May 01 2012 04:19 lodeet wrote: IdrA is the most depressing player to watch, but somehow I am still drawn to his stream.
It's like I still hope that one day he will stop being a fucking idiot and actually play the game.
This is a silly thing to say... Despite all the hate, IdrA is still one of the top 10-15 foreigners in the world.
My jaw just dropped.
How in gods name are you justifying that claim?
Idra did not win anything recently, he often loses online matches and 6 pools 2 games in a row but when he plays offline events you never know what's going to happend. He still take games from Code A/S players and such. He is tough to rank but still is amongst top foreigners when he tries.
Definitely thought Stephano would be the top, but I guess it makes sense for IdrA to be there considering the fact that he streams so much more. Stephano would definitely be on top if he streamed more regularly though.
On May 01 2012 04:59 CruiseR wrote: IdrA is not even close to top15 foreigners imo, he was very good during the beta and early sc2 times, but now he's just average
and we can see that for streaming, personality (and sometimes trashtalking/bm) is more important than skill.
Name 15 foreigners that can consistently take games and series off of players like Bomber, Jiakji etc, and tell me Idra is not one of them
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
On May 01 2012 04:59 CruiseR wrote: IdrA is not even close to top15 foreigners imo, he was very good during the beta and early sc2 times, but now he's just average
and we can see that for streaming, personality (and sometimes trashtalking/bm) is more important than skill.
Name 15 foreigners that can consistently take games and series off of players like Bomber, Jiakji etc, and tell me Idra is not one of them
Taking games off players isn't anything special in sc2.
On May 01 2012 04:36 Velocirapture wrote: This data highlights what I consider to be the biggest difference between LoL as a spectator sport and SC2. In LoL, for the longest time (before they moved into a Korean team house) I could log on pretty much any time of day and watch CLG play. They were dedicated and committed to providing stream content. Also about half the time (more with personalities like SV and less with some of the shy guys) they would not just be playing with music but also giving play by play commentary and Q+A. Sure they are doing it for the money but they also realize that being available personally makes people get emotionally invested. The closest thing SC2 has had to this was Destiny back when he was first starting and look how well it has worked for him.
SC2 will never reach its full potential if we keep propagating the myth that all pros need to do is play good games.
That's because teams aren't smart enough to provide consistent content. The only team I know who is willing to promote a regular webTV (not just basic streaming) is Millenium and it has been a success with over 50M single views on 3 channels (1. SC2 + various shows and tournaments 18.8M, 2. LoL 7.7M and 3. MMO / RPG 1.8M, rest is VOD)
On May 01 2012 04:59 CruiseR wrote: IdrA is not even close to top15 foreigners imo, he was very good during the beta and early sc2 times, but now he's just average
and we can see that for streaming, personality (and sometimes trashtalking/bm) is more important than skill.
Name 15 foreigners that can consistently take games and series off of players like Bomber, Jiakji etc, and tell me Idra is not one of them
Taking games off players isn't anything special in sc2.
On May 01 2012 04:59 CruiseR wrote: IdrA is not even close to top15 foreigners imo, he was very good during the beta and early sc2 times, but now he's just average
and we can see that for streaming, personality (and sometimes trashtalking/bm) is more important than skill.
Okay, then name 15-20 foreigners who are clearly better than IdrA, and be sure to give at least a few general reasons why your list of pro-gamers are better.
i think its pretty clear that players with commentary have more viewers then those without ceteris paribus.
Okay, then name 15-20 foreigners who are clearly better than IdrA, and be sure to give at least a few general reasons why your list of pro-gamers are better.
let me try but without reason, that's too timeconsuming:
A lot of the stream numbers come from consistency. To become known as a streamer, one needs to do it often, regularly and a lot. Without that, people won't get into the habit of tuning into your stream. It takes a long time to get those habits up (including getting people to follow your twitter, and fan club for when you are online), which is why some of the more regular streamers are doing better than the arguably bigger names. Idra is so successful because he is both famous and a regular streamer.
On the other hand, MKP has a great stream, one of the most entertaining out there, but it's on every blue moon and at a horrible time for most foreigners... But if you want to see someone not losing against great players, that's where you want to be.
On May 01 2012 04:59 CruiseR wrote: IdrA is not even close to top15 foreigners imo, he was very good during the beta and early sc2 times, but now he's just average
and we can see that for streaming, personality (and sometimes trashtalking/bm) is more important than skill.
Name 15 foreigners that can consistently take games and series off of players like Bomber, Jiakji etc, and tell me Idra is not one of them
Taking games off players isn't anything special in sc2.
It depends on the games. Baneling busting a code S terran doesn't mean anything, but beating some in long macro games is still indicative of skill.
IdrA is still a good foreigner (definitety top 15), he's just not at the top anymore. People have far too great expectations (his fans) and standards (his haters) for him.
Okay, then name 15-20 foreigners who are clearly better than IdrA, and be sure to give at least a few general reasons why your list of pro-gamers are better.
let me try but without reason, that's too timeconsuming:
I see perhaps 6 of these at best being better than Idra. I haven't seen play from some of these in a long time though, so my assumption might be a little off
Okay, then name 15-20 foreigners who are clearly better than IdrA, and be sure to give at least a few general reasons why your list of pro-gamers are better.
let me try but without reason, that's too timeconsuming:
you cant conclusively say any of them save perhaps stephano and naniwa...
</3 Cella stream... why no more I so sad... he started stream less and less after that christmas drunken stream... but I loved it when he used to get slayers peeps to just come and coach... the 15$ coach so good.. sigh T.T.T.T
On May 01 2012 05:18 A-p-p-l-e-s wrote: ive never heard of hui or seen his stream and he streamed like 500 hours? wow
He's a Taiwanese player, with a Taiwanese viewer base, and is not featured on TL.
Hui has asked to be featured numerous times on TL, but for some reason TL doesn't recognize any Taiwanese player not named sen. He should definitely be featured.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
Destiny all the way at 10th, he used to pull I'd say an average 5-6k when he played sc2, then his LoL time came and it dropped to 2-3k =/ Understandable I still watch him play both though xD
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on a facts.
Now that's bullshit. He's constantly taking long drawn out macro games against Code A and S players, can that be said for even a 3rd of these players? You cannot look at statistics and call a player better, you gotta look at the people they play, and how they play. How can you even try to claim that Bly is better than a player like Idra? That's beyond me...
Skill |= Streamviewers. Its funny why people watch IdrA. He is a bad player who plays even worse players than him on the worst Ladder (NA) in the world.
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
If it's based on facts, it's not an opinion. But it's not, so it's an opinion.
You won't get attacked because of a huge fan club, you'll get attacked because your opinion is foolish.
Besides that, you're doing an awful thing. Anyone who disagrees with you will have to bash any of the 34 fine players that you named. I won't do it.
On May 01 2012 05:11 Greenei wrote: i think its pretty clear that players with commentary have more viewers then those without ceteris paribus.
Okay, then name 15-20 foreigners who are clearly better than IdrA, and be sure to give at least a few general reasons why your list of pro-gamers are better.
let me try but without reason, that's too timeconsuming:
you cant conclusively say any of them save perhaps stephano and naniwa...
</3 Cella stream... why no more I so sad... he started stream less and less after that christmas drunken stream... but I loved it when he used to get slayers peeps to just come and coach... the 15$ coach so good.. sigh T.T.T.T
Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, HuK, Ret, and Nerchio are better than IdrA.
Titan is a Protoss and IdrA sucks vs. Protoss, but I don't think Titan is better than IdrA overall.
Select, Sheth, SaSe, Demuslim, Sjow, and White-Ra are not better than IdrA.
Wow, Maximusblack at #30 and I'm pretty sure hes the only person not featured on this list... I think itd be cool for TL to feature him because he has actually done a ridiculous amount for the community considering he took a bunch of casuals and got them interested in eSports, I didnt even know there was professional SC2 until watching his youtube videos and I know this is true for many others!
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on a facts.
Now that's bullshit. He's constantly taking long drawn out macro games against Code A and S players, can that be said for even a 3rd of these players? You cannot look at statistics and call a player better, you gotta look at the people they play, and how they play. How can you even try to claim that Bly is better than a player like Idra? That's beyond me...
yeah it's kind of pointless discussion because i can't prove that player X is better than Y if they are similar in skill. I would say IdrA = Bly and half of these players i listed because it depends on a day/mood whether they are "better". I would like to point though, that IdrA is very overrated, and players like Bly are underrated, he has produced incredible online results, and for me, online results are as important as offline ones (offline guys can handle nerves better + they are more experienced, so if IdrA was to play Bly offline, IdrA would probably have an edge, but if they were to play online, I'd bet my money on Bly)
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on a facts.
You point out IdrA's lack of a super-recent big win, even though a bunch of players in your list have NEVER received a big win (let alone recently).
And who the hell are Tefel and fraer? Are they even real people or did you just smash they keyboard in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to claim that even fake people are better than IdrA. Your personal favorite gamers =/= Best gamers necessarily.
The only people on your list who are even remotely at IdrA's level/ considered better at this point in time are HuK, Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain... and maybe you can throw in one or two wildcards (like Ret) from that list. But IdrA's absolutely in the top 10-15.
On May 01 2012 05:11 Greenei wrote: i think its pretty clear that players with commentary have more viewers then those without ceteris paribus.
Okay, then name 15-20 foreigners who are clearly better than IdrA, and be sure to give at least a few general reasons why your list of pro-gamers are better.
let me try but without reason, that's too timeconsuming:
you cant conclusively say any of them save perhaps stephano and naniwa...
</3 Cella stream... why no more I so sad... he started stream less and less after that christmas drunken stream... but I loved it when he used to get slayers peeps to just come and coach... the 15$ coach so good.. sigh T.T.T.T
Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, HuK, Ret, and Nerchio are better than IdrA.
Titan is a Protoss and IdrA sucks vs. Protoss, but I don't think Titan is better than IdrA overall.
Select, Sheth, SaSe, Demuslim, Sjow, and White-Ra are not better than IdrA.
I completely agree, but I'm hesitant to put Thorzain and Nerchio over Idra. That might be because I have never really seen Nerchio play though, but I'm sure he's a great player. I would put my money on Idra over Thorzain if they were to go against each other, but that's like Tzain worst vs Idra's best, but overall I think they're too equal to put either on top.
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
If it's based on facts, it's not an opinion. But it's not, so it's an opinion.
You won't get attacked because of a huge fan club, you'll get attacked because your opinion is foolish.
Besides that, you're doing an awful thing. Anyone who disagrees with you will have to bash any of the 34 fine players that you named. I won't do it.
My english is not perfect, and by facts i meant results. Recent IdrA's results are non existent, while other players win online cups (top foreigners participate, and players like Polt and HyuN) like every day.
you guys are funny. the guys i named aren't all "leagues" better then idra but still better. idra constantly gets last places in groups and just overall loses a fuckton. i dont see how any mediocore pro wouldn't be better then him.
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
If it's based on facts, it's not an opinion. But it's not, so it's an opinion.
You won't get attacked because of a huge fan club, you'll get attacked because your opinion is foolish.
Besides that, you're doing an awful thing. Anyone who disagrees with you will have to bash any of the 34 fine players that you named. I won't do it.
My english is not perfect, and by facts i meant results. Recent IdrA's results are non existent, while other players win online cups (top foreigners participate, and players like Polt and HyuN) like every day.
Are you even trying to defend the claim that half of those players are close to Idra?
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
How do LoL players consistently get so many viewers? I don't really understand that community at all. Streams seem to be the way most players make their money.
On May 01 2012 04:59 CruiseR wrote: IdrA is not even close to top15 foreigners imo, he was very good during the beta and early sc2 times, but now he's just average
and we can see that for streaming, personality (and sometimes trashtalking/bm) is more important than skill.
Not even close to top 15 foreigners? I don't want to live on this planet anymore
On May 01 2012 05:37 Greenei wrote: you guys are funny. the guys i named aren't all "leagues" better then idra but still better. idra constantly gets last places in groups and just overall loses a fuckton. i dont see how any mediocore pro wouldn't be better then him.
Put a mediocre foreigner in the groups that Idra has had, and see if they do better
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
How do LoL players consistently get so many viewers? I don't really understand that community at all. Streams seem to be the way most players make their money.
Because LoL has a SICK amount of people playing it.
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
If it's based on facts, it's not an opinion. But it's not, so it's an opinion.
You won't get attacked because of a huge fan club, you'll get attacked because your opinion is foolish.
Besides that, you're doing an awful thing. Anyone who disagrees with you will have to bash any of the 34 fine players that you named. I won't do it.
My english is not perfect, and by facts i meant results. Recent IdrA's results are non existent, while other players win online cups (top foreigners participate, and players like Polt and HyuN) like every day.
Well if you consider online results actual "results" than your opinion makes more sense. Sadly I don't think many people on planet earth would actually agree with that sentiment...
On May 01 2012 05:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: And who the hell are Tefel and fraer? Are they even real people or did you just smash they keyboard in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to claim that even fake people are better than IdrA. Your personal favorite gamers =/= Best gamers necessarily. .
You don't even know top3 polish player that has awesome online results recently? , and a player from Ukraine that won like 10 cups like zotac in last few weeks? For example, I would put fraer over White-Ra easily right now. and i don't even have the reason to "like" the guy.
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
How do LoL players consistently get so many viewers? I don't really understand that community at all. Streams seem to be the way most players make their money.
bigger community = more viewers I guess... cause its f2p and the community is a lot larger you get a lot more people watching naturally
On May 01 2012 05:37 Greenei wrote: you guys are funny. the guys i named aren't all "leagues" better then idra but still better. idra constantly gets last places in groups and just overall loses a fuckton. i dont see how any mediocore pro wouldn't be better then him.
well you are discounting the fact the groups he are in are idk, filled with code S players while Titan, however good he is, has not played people like MMA, Jjaki, Bomber all in one tournament group...
Dear fellow Stephano fans, SC2 is not an e-peen contest. It's not important for us that Stephano gets more stream viewers than Idra, but it's important for us that he keeps winning. Let the haters and the fools alike argue between themselves till the world dies and do not start the Idra vs. Stephano debate again, it has been done and the final outcome is pretty clear.
On May 01 2012 05:42 Otolia wrote: Dear fellow Stephano fans, SC2 is not an e-peen contest. It's not important for us that Stephano gets more stream viewers than Idra, but it's important for us that he keeps winning. Let the haters and the fools alike argue between themselves till the world dies and do not start the Idra vs. Stephano debate again, it has been done and the final outcome is pretty clear.
Did you even read the thread? People aren't arguing about if Idra/Stephano get more viewers or which one is better..
top 5 don't shock me except demuslim, not that he doesn't deserve it I just wouldn't have expected it. I'm glad to see it though.
white-ra to me is the best streamer although I don't watch him that often. He has amazing and UNIQUE play and commentates so so much you can really learn from him as well as be entertained. makes me wish I was a toss player.
he and incontrol are the only streams I'll open and mute/leave open when I leave purely to support the players because i think they deserve it, as little as a single view counts it's something.
Very interesting data. If we estimate the typical eCPM cost and ads-per-hour, we can also use this to get a rough idea how much (little) ad-money actually get generated.
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
If it's based on facts, it's not an opinion. But it's not, so it's an opinion.
You won't get attacked because of a huge fan club, you'll get attacked because your opinion is foolish.
Besides that, you're doing an awful thing. Anyone who disagrees with you will have to bash any of the 34 fine players that you named. I won't do it.
its not a opinion look at the result from the last 6 months and all of those players got much better results then Idra. Idra isnt even in top 200 in ELO ranking.
Idra´s got allmost the worst stats of any progamer the last 6-7months. Since WCG he has pretty much lost every match he played in tournament settings. Ofcourse some would say well he only played against Koreans.
Well thats not true he got really banged up at IEM vs Europeans. Finish last in his group there aswell.
Stats dont lie. And thats the reason we even use stats.
Matter infact calling Idra a top 20 foreigner is an insult to the foreign scene.
502 hours is sooo impressive atleast with this high amount of viewers. I mean everyone can stream for 24 hours a day, but i doubt many would watch you sleeping.
Idra took alot over from bw, just like i jump in circles when i see Mondragon streaming. And Idra also seems to commentate sometimes etc etc. All for the viewers. Since if you can't win anything, you can atleast make money with fanboys. Not that Idra is bad, he just hates the game to much to play good and sine he rarely plays in tournaments its hard to say at what level he really is and even the best arguments won't bear any fruits.
I named 34 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
If it's based on facts, it's not an opinion. But it's not, so it's an opinion.
You won't get attacked because of a huge fan club, you'll get attacked because your opinion is foolish.
Besides that, you're doing an awful thing. Anyone who disagrees with you will have to bash any of the 34 fine players that you named. I won't do it.
its not a opinion look at the result from the last 6 months and all of those players got much better results then Idra. Idra isnt even in top 200 in ELO ranking.
Idra´s got allmost the worst stats of any progamer the last 6-7months. Since WCG he has pretty much lost every match he played in tournament settings. Ofcourse some would say well he only played against Koreans.
Well thats not true he got really banged up at IEM vs Europeans. Finish last in his group there aswell.
Stats dont lie. And thats the reason we even use stats.
IEM was an incredibly disappointing performance, and that's a long time ago now. It's been awhile since he lost to a foreigner, as far as I know(not that he's played many recently either) That one poor performance against foreigners doesn't rule out the fact that the other losses were against the top of competition, whereas most of those with a higher ELO play mostly foreigners in online cups. Look at the TLPD thingy. Tzain is over Stephano, and both Titan and LiveZerg are in the top 5. Does that make Tzain better than Stephano, and does that make Titan and LiveZerg remotely close to being in he top5 of actual skill?
On May 01 2012 05:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: And who the hell are Tefel and fraer? Are they even real people or did you just smash they keyboard in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to claim that even fake people are better than IdrA. Your personal favorite gamers =/= Best gamers necessarily. .
You don't even know top3 polish player that has awesome online results recently? , and a player from Ukraine that won like 10 cups like zotac in last few weeks? For example, I would put fraer over White-Ra easily right now. and i don't even have the reason to "like" the guy.
I agree, WhiteRa and IdrA are too mainstream . Tefel and Fraer are the true top foreigners.
On May 01 2012 05:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: And who the hell are Tefel and fraer? Are they even real people or did you just smash they keyboard in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to claim that even fake people are better than IdrA. Your personal favorite gamers =/= Best gamers necessarily. .
You don't even know top3 polish player that has awesome online results recently? , and a player from Ukraine that won like 10 cups like zotac in last few weeks? For example, I would put fraer over White-Ra easily right now. and i don't even have the reason to "like" the guy.
I agree, WhiteRa and IdrA are too mainstream . Tefel and Fraer are the true top foreigners.
I feel irony in your post. Right now I would definitely bet my money on Tefel/fraer against Idra/WR. Their recent form is HUGE, and IdrAand WR haven't produced any good results recently.
On May 01 2012 06:02 Marddox wrote: I can see stephano surpassing idrA soon on average viewers
They switched places a couple of times during the last month, actually. There does not seem to be a trend either way, though Idra's stream has both much higher and much lower viewer numbers at times compared to Stephano's.
White-ra with his special tactiks, sick multitask, and special komentaries deserves the number one spot Stephano have sick macro plus prolly the best music of all streams out there; also nice strategic coments as well. Idra.... i guess he have tons of fanboys ;P
For all the horrible things that Deezer and He-who-must-not-be-named did they were streaming gold for players whenever they played together. For instance Destinys stream sessions with He-who-must-not-be-named or Sheths stream where he would talk to Deezer through his stream for the entire game, those were pretty amazing and an instant 3-4k viewers. Love them or hate them they got the fans interested...
Interesting to see how far Destiny has dropped since streaming LoL, even though more people watch LoL Destiny doesn't have any fan base in that community
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
Idra has hit 20K+ viewers before. Obviously, not in this time frame. When Summer comes along, the viewer count gets quite insane for some of these players.
On May 01 2012 05:56 FeyFey wrote: 502 hours is sooo impressive atleast with this high amount of viewers. I mean everyone can stream for 24 hours a day, but i doubt many would watch you sleeping.
wasn't it Cella that got a few thousand viewers (and kept climbing) while sleeping on his computer chair for two hours? that was a funny one (: but ye I agree.
I'm surprized to see demuslim. I used to watch him all the time but now i never seem to catch him stream. I thought he stopped but I guess I just missed him every time
i have actually really never heard of this hui guy before honor is actually pretty good i can really recommend his stream actually (for germans especially ofc)
didn't konw maximus black either and i have no clue why he has that many stream viewers so i guess i will have to check his stream out too
On May 01 2012 06:05 Mortalfury wrote: For all the horrible things that Deezer and He-who-must-not-be-named did they were streaming gold for players whenever they played together. For instance Destinys stream sessions with He-who-must-not-be-named or Sheths stream where he would talk to Deezer through his stream for the entire game, those were pretty amazing and an instant 3-4k viewers. Love them or hate them they got the fans interested...
Interesting to see how far Destiny has dropped since streaming LoL, even though more people watch LoL Destiny doesn't have any fan base in that community
Isn't Destiny on a relatively average ELO in LoL? No matter how much personality he has if he is playing at a low level I can't see many LoL fans being that interested in watching him
On May 01 2012 06:14 Shanedon wrote: Is Huk missing on this? Or am I losing it?
Yeah, he is. He did not stream at all in the last month. Naniwa is another notable absentee. I'm sure both of them would easily make it into the top 5 if they'd stream again.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
Somebody less involved with the Korean scene may have said the same thing about Taeja half a year ago (in fact, scratch the "may have" - there's probably dozens of people that did). There's at least 20 players I can name off the top of my head that were branded as 'overhyped' at one point, and ended up making deep runs in top tournaments and competing at highest levels 6 months or a year later. On the other hand, I can't think of that many who were heavily hyped and didn't turn out to be at least decent at the highest level.
Fact is that there are people who play closer attention to the scene (or a part of it) than most others, and as a result they happen to know things most other people do not. Based on past experience, I'm now more likely to believe somebody who claims to know and have followed these players (and appears genuine) that they are actually that good, than somebody who is completely ignorant of their existence claiming they are "overhyped" just because he's never seen them play.
In this specific case, CruiseR is right - betting on either IdrA or White-Ra against either Tefel or fraer at this point in time would be an extremely risky investment. Their level of play is simply higher right now, and their form is undeniably better.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Have Strelok or DieStar done something recently? I don't follow the online cups, so I dunno if they've beaten anyone good.
Scarlett is too untested imo. Definetly one of the players I am most looking forward to seeing more of
Watched Dragon today and he is by far the best streamer I know. He doesn't plays horrible kpop, he speaks solid english and he is just damn funny. I love to watch his stream, so entertaining.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
Somebody less involved with the Korean scene may have said the same thing about Taeja half a year ago (in fact, scratch the "may have" - there's probably dozens of people that did). There's at least 20 players I can name off the top of my head that were branded as 'overhyped' at one point, and ended up making deep runs in top tournaments and competing at highest levels 6 months or a year later. On the other hand, I can't think of that many who were heavily hyped and didn't turn out to be at least decent at the highest level.
Fact is that there are people who play closer attention to the scene (or a part of it) than most others, and as a result they happen to know things most other people do not. Based on past experience, I'm now more likely to believe somebody who claims to know and have followed these players (and appears genuine) that they are actually that good, than somebody who is completely ignorant of their existence claiming they are "overhyped" just because he's never seen them play.
In this specific case, CruiseR is right - betting on either IdrA or White-Ra against either Tefel or fraer at this point in time would be an extremely risky investment. Their level of play is simply higher right now, and their form is undeniably better.
there's a difference between guys winning euro cups and people raping korean weeklies like its NA platinum.
people are looking at "losses" and assuming they all mean the same thing... recent IdrA losses in order of chronology (TLPD source) + Show Spoiler +
There's a difference in these... one list contains people all who have been in Code S at least once from january... whereas Nerchio is probably the only notable win that Fraer has had for a while...
I'm not saying they are by any means bad... I'm saying that to arbitrarily use winrate or participation in weeklies is hard to judge actual quality of play, and its really really hard to staunchly defend the point that they are favored... I'll admit that in a bo3 these guys can beat IdrA in a clan war, but in a serious non-showmatch series, or a LAN tournament I don't think a lot of foreigners are favorites over idra
On May 01 2012 06:03 OzkanTheFlip wrote: haha, i like how destiny only #10 and he's streamed 288 hours
It is average viewer count not total viewer count... the amount of hours he has streamed doesn't really matter unless he was someone that nobody heard about before they started streaming..
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Have Strelok or DieStar done something recently? I don't follow the online cups, so I dunno if they've beaten anyone good.
Scarlett is too untested imo. Definetly one of the players I am most looking forward to seeing more of
Not sure about diestar, but Strelok's been on a tear in the IPL TAC3 qualifiers:
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Have Strelok or DieStar done something recently? I don't follow the online cups, so I dunno if they've beaten anyone good.
Scarlett is too untested imo. Definetly one of the players I am most looking forward to seeing more of
Not sure about diestar, but Strelok's been on a tear in the IPL TAC3 qualifiers:
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Have Strelok or DieStar done something recently? I don't follow the online cups, so I dunno if they've beaten anyone good.
Scarlett is too untested imo. Definetly one of the players I am most looking forward to seeing more of
Scarlet, Strelok and Diestar have done very well in online offline the last 6 months.
Diestar: Took first in his place at Assemply 2012, Beating JYP 2-0
Scarlet: IPL 4
Strelok: just won Sennheiser Hear To Win Beating Hyun 3-0
And they all 3 done very well in other online and offline cups the last 6 months This is a fact and if you also look at there stats they are miles above Idra. People know nothing about these players becuase they artn hyped as feck well except Scalet she is doing very well for herself. But Strelok and Diestar are barely known..
Its really frustation to read that Idra are ahead of these 2 when they got much better results and stats then Idra the last 6 months
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
Somebody less involved with the Korean scene may have said the same thing about Taeja half a year ago (in fact, scratch the "may have" - there's probably dozens of people that did). There's at least 20 players I can name off the top of my head that were branded as 'overhyped' at one point, and ended up making deep runs in top tournaments and competing at highest levels 6 months or a year later. On the other hand, I can't think of that many who were heavily hyped and didn't turn out to be at least decent at the highest level.
Fact is that there are people who play closer attention to the scene (or a part of it) than most others, and as a result they happen to know things most other people do not. Based on past experience, I'm now more likely to believe somebody who claims to know and have followed these players (and appears genuine) that they are actually that good, than somebody who is completely ignorant of their existence claiming they are "overhyped" just because he's never seen them play.
In this specific case, CruiseR is right - betting on either IdrA or White-Ra against either Tefel or fraer at this point in time would be an extremely risky investment. Their level of play is simply higher right now, and their form is undeniably better.
there's a difference between guys winning euro cups and people raping korean weeklies like its NA platinum.
people are looking at "losses" and assuming they all mean the same thing... recent IdrA losses in order of chronology (TLPD source) + Show Spoiler +
There's a difference in these... one list contains people all who have been in Code S at least once from january... whereas Nerchio is probably the only notable win that Fraer has had for a while...
I'm not saying they are by any means bad... I'm saying that to arbitrarily use winrate or participation in weeklies is hard to judge actual quality of play, and its really really hard to staunchly defend the point that they are favored... I'll admit that in a bo3 these guys can beat IdrA in a clan war, but in a serious non-showmatch series, or a LAN tournament I don't think a lot of foreigners are favorites over idra
I don't use win rate or results, only knowledge/memory of the games I watched myself.
I am however absolutely convinced that, having watched Idra's ZvP and fraer's PvZ (fairly recently), I would put my money on fraer without thinking twice, LAN or not (although it's unlikely they would meet at a LAN anyway).
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Have Strelok or DieStar done something recently? I don't follow the online cups, so I dunno if they've beaten anyone good.
Scarlett is too untested imo. Definetly one of the players I am most looking forward to seeing more of
Not sure about diestar, but Strelok's been on a tear in the IPL TAC3 qualifiers:
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
Somebody less involved with the Korean scene may have said the same thing about Taeja half a year ago (in fact, scratch the "may have" - there's probably dozens of people that did). There's at least 20 players I can name off the top of my head that were branded as 'overhyped' at one point, and ended up making deep runs in top tournaments and competing at highest levels 6 months or a year later. On the other hand, I can't think of that many who were heavily hyped and didn't turn out to be at least decent at the highest level.
Fact is that there are people who play closer attention to the scene (or a part of it) than most others, and as a result they happen to know things most other people do not. Based on past experience, I'm now more likely to believe somebody who claims to know and have followed these players (and appears genuine) that they are actually that good, than somebody who is completely ignorant of their existence claiming they are "overhyped" just because he's never seen them play.
In this specific case, CruiseR is right - betting on either IdrA or White-Ra against either Tefel or fraer at this point in time would be an extremely risky investment. Their level of play is simply higher right now, and their form is undeniably better.
The problem is that you don't know IdrA's form just from him playing against top Koreans and losing. Tefel and Fraer are at the spot that Stephano was in a year ago - ie they're ripping it up in those online EU cups, but they're not being challenged by the best of the best in the foreigner's scene because once a pro breaks out - ie Naniwa in early 2011, Stephano in late 2011 - he ceases to play in the online cups and the competition diminishes. Nonetheless, EU cups are a miner's canary for breakout talent in the EU, but that doesn't say that talent is better than IdrA here and now.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Have Strelok or DieStar done something recently? I don't follow the online cups, so I dunno if they've beaten anyone good.
Scarlett is too untested imo. Definetly one of the players I am most looking forward to seeing more of
Not sure about diestar, but Strelok's been on a tear in the IPL TAC3 qualifiers:
i always try to catch Hui streaming to see if he's any good but never catch him due to timezones conflicting. Anyone have any idea what times he normally streams (EST time preferably ) ?
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Frankly, I think people just suck at estimating the relative skill levels of players. EU players tend to be in this "walled garden" of EU-centric tournaments. Players will have a ton of success around players that are around their own skill level, but then will get crushed the moment they step into a tournament with even Code B/Code A Koreans.
Meanwhile, people will talk about IdrA's running losses, and forget that he's been playing Code A/Code S Koreans, or foreigners with proven successes in high profile tournaments (not counting the IEM World Champs, that was just bad).
On May 01 2012 05:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: And who the hell are Tefel and fraer? Are they even real people or did you just smash they keyboard in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to claim that even fake people are better than IdrA. Your personal favorite gamers =/= Best gamers necessarily. .
You don't even know top3 polish player that has awesome online results recently? , and a player from Ukraine that won like 10 cups like zotac in last few weeks? For example, I would put fraer over White-Ra easily right now. and i don't even have the reason to "like" the guy.
well you are hyping them coz you are polak, tefei and fraer is low gm players that havent won anythink ever, you hawe to be really stupid or biased like you to putt them over idra and whitera. Oh man, top 3 polish? What about mana, nercio, diestar? Lol i played tefei few times, hadnt had much trouble against him even tho hes top3 polak lol.
On May 01 2012 07:00 Smoodish wrote: i always try to catch Hui streaming to see if he's any good but never catch him due to timezones conflicting. Anyone have any idea what times he normally streams (EST time preferably ) ?
On May 01 2012 07:00 Smoodish wrote: i always try to catch Hui streaming to see if he's any good but never catch him due to timezones conflicting. Anyone have any idea what times he normally streams (EST time preferably ) ?
Pardon my ignorance, but who is he?
Taiwanese pro, plays for the Xpec Ironmen in the TESL (fun fact, taiwanese teams have the best logos in sc2)
That's some interesting numbers, the first thing I did after looking over the list was opening non-featured tab to find Hui's stream.. and ofc it was online :-P.
Regarding the discussion of skill vs. viewernumbers it's only reasonable that people wanna watch the stream offering the most and if there is commentary, bm or other stuff alongside the laddering it will simply be better. That said, I dont watch streams that much, but thats mainly because I dont find the 1. person view that intriguing. I prefer 3. person view used in tournaments!
On May 01 2012 07:00 Smoodish wrote: i always try to catch Hui streaming to see if he's any good but never catch him due to timezones conflicting. Anyone have any idea what times he normally streams (EST time preferably ) ?
Pardon my ignorance, but who is he?
Taiwanese pro, plays for the Xpec Ironmen in the TESL (fun fact, taiwanese teams have the best logos in sc2)
good streamer =/= good... grubby is badass and top streamer according to this but he isnt gonna win GSL anytime soon...
On May 01 2012 07:00 Smoodish wrote: i always try to catch Hui streaming to see if he's any good but never catch him due to timezones conflicting. Anyone have any idea what times he normally streams (EST time preferably ) ?
He's on the better part of a day - hell he's on right now.
Destiny streams so much at odd hours that the number he averages is actaully pretty good. He's always on at like 3 AM EST, which means half of America is asleep and Europe is waking up or at work / school.
As for Idra's level, he's definitely top 15. At least overall. He's had overall more accomplishments than most foreigners except Nani, Stephano, etc.. His play is good even if it doesn't feel like it, considering his recent results. You can't ever count Idra out.
I agree that overall Europeans are better than their NA counterparts. But only slightly.
Oh and Destiny ftw! 288 hours for the god damn win. LOVE his stream SO hard. Catz doesn't get enough love when he streams though
On May 01 2012 05:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: And who the hell are Tefel and fraer? Are they even real people or did you just smash they keyboard in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to claim that even fake people are better than IdrA. Your personal favorite gamers =/= Best gamers necessarily. .
You don't even know top3 polish player that has awesome online results recently? , and a player from Ukraine that won like 10 cups like zotac in last few weeks? For example, I would put fraer over White-Ra easily right now. and i don't even have the reason to "like" the guy.
well you are hyping them coz you are polak, tefei and fraer is low gm players that havent won anythink ever, you hawe to be really stupid or biased like you to putt them over idra and whitera. Oh man, top 3 polish? What about mana, nercio, diestar? Lol i played tefei few times, hadnt had much trouble against him even tho hes top3 polak lol.
You are such an ignorant saying that "Tefel and fraer are low gm players that havent won anything yet". Plus you can't even spell his nickname correctly. I won't even start a discussion with you. And yeah sure, you are beating Tefel on ladder without much problems, good job with that ; )
Honestly speaking,Idra currently doesn't deserve those viewership numbers but i guess people love to see him since he is an American identity that people can related to and Idra doesn't rage so much as before. He just rage quit everytime he loses and i dunno how people find that amusing.
People like Losira,Coca and etc that stream deserves more viewership numbers.
I named 35 players (and i'm not even sure if Snute/White-Ra/TLO/Sheth/Adelscott/ToD/Scarlett aren't in that list too) that are better than IdrA imo. Obviously it can't be proven they are or they are not, but looking at recent IdrA's tournament results i truly believe in what i said. His last nice win was in November 2011 (Asus ROG), and since then he was "constantly" taking last places in MLGs and other tournaments. And taking a single game off a player like Bomber (look at his tlpd, he was "constantly winning" maybe 10+ months ago) means nothing, cuz many players from my list would have a decent shot to win a single game in bo3 or bo5 against a top korean
he was very good in sc:bw (probably top1 foreigner at some point) and probably the best during the beta, but now there are alot of other talent you people underrate and don't even think about, just because IdrA has a name. I will probably get attacked now by the biggest fanclub in the world, but I don't really care. That's my opinion and you are not gonna change it, because it's based on facts.
cliffs: IdrA has earned a name for himself winning many tournaments in beta/early sc2, but even though other players don't have as much tournament success, i would bet money on them if they were to play vs IdrA right now. Online results are important for me too.
I read exactly 4 names on your list and KNEW that you lived in EU, looked at location and was not disappointed.
Yeah, you americans don't know a third of the players listed i know it
Or we know that a lot of EU fans seem to wayyyyyyyyyyyy overly hype a good number of EU players. Not saying IdrA is the top dog, but your list is borderline insulting and so obv EU favored it can't be taken as anything but another EU fan overhyping EU players.
You really don't believe EU has much more better players than NA ? I think the difference in both skill and number of high-skilled players is pretty big.
That's no the point. The thing is you're saying players like Goody, Scarlett, Adelscott, Strelok or DieStar (just quoting the most painful ones) are better than IdrA which is beyond ridiculous.
So you are incredibly biased towards EU random players or you are a hardcore IdrA hater.
I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
Frankly, I think people just suck at estimating the relative skill levels of players. EU players tend to be in this "walled garden" of EU-centric tournaments. Players will have a ton of success around players that are around their own skill level, but then will get crushed the moment they step into a tournament with even Code B/Code A Koreans.
Meanwhile, people will talk about IdrA's running losses, and forget that he's been playing Code A/Code S Koreans, or foreigners with proven successes in high profile tournaments (not counting the IEM World Champs, that was just bad).
One way to figure this out - showmatches and small invitationals ala the GD Cup.
Get $1000-2000 and get Fraer, Tefel, Diestar, and IdrA in a 4-man invitational. The GD one had Lucifron and Titan going up vs. Stephano and Ret. Stephano smashed the up and coming players but Titan beat Ret, which says he's a top PvZ player.
Failing that, and because IdrA does get a bit arrogant at times about not accepting showmatches and invitationals, get a Korean Code A-Code S player and do the same thing. They want the money, and Fraer and Tefel want the publicity and the money.
On May 01 2012 07:18 FakeDeath wrote: Honestly speaking,Idra currently doesn't deserve those viewership numbers but i guess people love to see him since he is an American identity that people can related to and Idra doesn't rage so much as before. He just rage quit everytime he loses and i dunno how people find that amusing.
People like Losira,Coca and etc that stream deserves more viewership numbers.
EG isn't performing as well as though.
He hasn't really ragequit anything in a while, now has he? Except the 6 pools against Huk, but I wouldn't call that ragequitting
On May 01 2012 07:18 FakeDeath wrote: Honestly speaking,Idra currently doesn't deserve those viewership numbers but i guess people love to see him since he is an American identity that people can related to and Idra doesn't rage so much as before. He just rage quit everytime he loses and i dunno how people find that amusing.
People like Losira,Coca and etc that stream deserves more viewership numbers.
EG isn't performing as well as though.
He hasn't really ragequit anything in a while, now has he? Except the 6 pools against Huk, but I wouldn't call that ragequitting
I dont know what you would call them, or the time he streamed after those games but I call them manner exits. )
Anybody get the scoop on Hui? 500 hours in a month is ~18 hours a day, which of course is impossible for one person. Does he just restream for half the day or have clanmates take over?
On May 01 2012 07:18 FakeDeath wrote: Honestly speaking,Idra currently doesn't deserve those viewership numbers but i guess people love to see him since he is an American identity that people can related to and Idra doesn't rage so much as before. He just rage quit everytime he loses and i dunno how people find that amusing.
People like Losira,Coca and etc that stream deserves more viewership numbers.
EG isn't performing as well as though.
He hasn't really ragequit anything in a while, now has he? Except the 6 pools against Huk, but I wouldn't call that ragequitting
I dont know what you would call them, or the time he streamed after those games but I call them manner exits. )
You.. You don't go by no-ggs on ladder as ragequits, do you?
On May 01 2012 07:18 FakeDeath wrote: Honestly speaking,Idra currently doesn't deserve those viewership numbers but i guess people love to see him since he is an American identity that people can related to and Idra doesn't rage so much as before. He just rage quit everytime he loses and i dunno how people find that amusing.
People like Losira,Coca and etc that stream deserves more viewership numbers.
EG isn't performing as well as though.
that is not why people watch IdrA's stream. you should tune in and try it and see what over 10,000 people have already discovered
On May 01 2012 07:26 JayDee_ wrote: Anybody get the scoop on Hui? 500 hours in a month is ~18 hours a day, which of course is impossible for one person. Does he just restream for half the day or have clanmates take over?
On May 01 2012 07:10 iNcontroL wrote: wow asha` lol
big fuck you too!
So that's "have a pro player comment in one of my threads" off my list of things I always wanted to do. Thank you very much, Sir!
Can i count in too?
OnTopic: I want to be on the list! Guess i should be streaming more :D
Haha, why of course!
I cannot find you anywhere in my log, though. :/ Nor in TL's streamer list. Not under your name, anyhow. Guess that means you really ought to stream again. I'd watch you!
Great piece of work, Conti. It is very interesting to see the comparions. You have collected all the data. Is it possible to sort it and present it by continent? People can only really watch one stream at a time, and are also limited by who is streaming in their own convenient time-zones. How much overlap in time is there between say Idra's and Stephano's stream? Idra would obviously be streaming at the same time as InControl, Machine and DeMuslim. MC and MKP would be streaming at similar times as each other. Is Destiny in Korea during this time-period? Idra probably does not overlap/compete with White-Ra that much due to time-differences. Are more Europeans watching streams than Americans? What about Asia? Finding the most popular timezones to stream can lead to players optimising their streaming revenue if they stream at these particular time-slots.
Also is it possible to sort the data by days of the week. Are streams generally more popular at weekends? Are Fridays generally more popular than Mondays? Are total stream viewers increasing or declining - I know you have a very small sample of time to detect possible trends. I can see how individual streaming is great for players but is it harming tournaments streams? What about data from China? I imagine they have big numbers. Any possibility of getting some of that data to compare with the rest of the Foreign scene?
I understand that is a lot of questions. But the rest of the thread seems to be hi-jacked by silly Idra bashing.
On May 01 2012 07:18 FakeDeath wrote: Honestly speaking,Idra currently doesn't deserve those viewership numbers but i guess people love to see him since he is an American identity that people can related to and Idra doesn't rage so much as before. He just rage quit everytime he loses and i dunno how people find that amusing.
People like Losira,Coca and etc that stream deserves more viewership numbers.
EG isn't performing as well as though.
Well, I guess that we should just ignore idra because he is clearly not worthy of 10,000 fans. All stream viewers should consult you before watching anyone (to make sure that they are worthy of our viewership) because fuck watching who we want to watch. In fact, why don't you tell everyone what the best musical acts and TV shows are so that nobody ends up supporting all of those out there who you deem "unworthy."
Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
On May 01 2012 07:44 Sroobz wrote: That's stupid...take this from the beginning of 2012 and see who has the lead.
On May 01 2012 07:40 Sroobz wrote: This is wrong lol I've seen Stephano reach 19000 viewers and he always has like 8000+
then do research and make your own thread...
i think its pretty impressive that he wrote script to check up on this and dont think gut feeling + no constructive comments gets to call it wrong and stupid outright
On May 01 2012 07:33 revel8 wrote: Is it possible to sort it and present it by continent?
That's depends. It's entirely possible to sort by where people come from (with some manual work). If you want have all streams from people currently in Asia, though, that's a lot tougher to do as you'd have to keep track of who is where right now.
How much overlap in time is there between say Idra's and Stephano's stream?
This and similar questions could be answered with the data I gathered, though I don't know yet what the best way to present such data would be. Maybe create a graph to see on which time of the day a given player is streaming. Might be interesting to see for, say, the top 10.
Are more Europeans watching streams than Americans? What about Asia?
I can only say when people are watching, not from where. I have no data at all about the viewers themselves.
Finding the most popular timezones to stream can lead to players optimising their streaming revenue if they stream at these particular time-slots.
True, though I'd say the streamers themselves have much better statistical tools than I do, and I'd guess that those who do live from streaming their games looked into this already.
Also is it possible to sort the data by days of the week. Are streams generally more popular at weekends? Are Fridays generally more popular than Mondays?
That's definitely doable. Though not quite as simple as it sounds, as I'd have to default to a time zone here to differentiate the days and I have no idea which one I should pick
Are total stream viewers increasing or declining
That's another thing I could put in a graph. I actually also log the total current viewers as displayed on TL.net (upper right corner), so that one should be quite easy.
I can see how individual streaming is great for players but is it harming tournaments streams?
It's the other way around, actually. When there's a big tournament like MLG or IPL, even big names like White-Ra get very few viewers. At the same time, very few pro players stream during such events, either because they participate in the tournament or because they know it's not worth competing with it.
What about data from China? I imagine they have big numbers. Any possibility of getting some of that data to compare with the rest of the Foreign scene?
As I said above, I could at most order the streams by the origin of the streamers. I'm not sure there are any Chinese streamers on TL.net, though.
I understand that is a lot of questions. But the rest of the thread seems to be hi-jacked by silly Idra bashing.
Haha. Everything that distracts from the discussion about Idra is quite welcome.
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
Bomber twice as good as Idra... I guess that's why Bomber won against Idra by having hellions on the right place at the right time? Overall, yeah Bomber comes out on top, but twice as good? No
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
Bomber twice as good as Idra... I guess that's why Bomber won against Idra by having hellions on the right place at the right time? Overall, yeah Bomber comes out on top, but twice as good? No
In fact, when I think about it I think the difference is even bigger than that.
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
Bomber twice as good as Idra... I guess that's why Bomber won against Idra by having hellions on the right place at the right time? Overall, yeah Bomber comes out on top, but twice as good? No
In fact, when I think about it I think the difference is even bigger than that.
you can all cry about idra getting all these views even though you think he sucks (he doesn't), but the fact remains, IdrA's BM comes nothing near to the slurs that destiny says on streams. Why is it okay for destiny to say faggot 100x per hour and occasionally nigger and constant oh yeah i fucked your mom jokes. IMO: Destiny shouldn't be featured with that kind of language. orb got some shit for saying nigger. calling someone a faggot is just as just as bad; it's a prejudice slur. I wont tolerate it.
Anyways.. Thanks for the great statistical information, OP! It is very interesting to see those numbers.
On May 01 2012 07:00 Smoodish wrote: i always try to catch Hui streaming to see if he's any good but never catch him due to timezones conflicting. Anyone have any idea what times he normally streams (EST time preferably ) ?
My question about whether more Europeans watching than Americans could possibly be reworded into a time-zone question. Most European streamers are doing so in a time-period that is convenient for European/African viewers because they are in similar time-zones. If the top ten streams from European-based players have more viewers than the top ten streams from players based in the America's then that could be a measure to loosely compare whether more from Europe/Africa are watching compared to the America's. It would not be too accurate a correlation but if there is a big difference in the numbers that might mean something about geographical distribution of viewers.
As for tournaments streams being harmed. I was thinking of NASL and the league part of their competition. This streams pretty much every day. I was just wondering if their viewers are significantly hit by having to compete with mostly US based player streams which operate at similar times.
Anyway regardless on how you want to proceed, you deserve plaudits for the work you have already put into this.
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
Bomber twice as good as Idra... I guess that's why Bomber won against Idra by having hellions on the right place at the right time? Overall, yeah Bomber comes out on top, but twice as good? No
In fact, when I think about it I think the difference is even bigger than that.
He is probably three times better than idrA
Fraer has a 60% win rate in 2012 vs. EU players and a few Korean Code A-S players.
IdrA has a 32% win rate in 2012 vs. Korean Code A-S players and a few EU players.
Yeah, it's that bad for IdrA, but you don't get three times from that.
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
People don't necessarily watch streams for skills display. They just want to be entertain. Thus why people with more personality attracts more viewers.
One of the reasons I started watching Idra's stream was because he did commentary/analysis, which is something that very few streamers have. You learn SO, SO, SO much more with commentary then just the FPstream. That counts too and it's something Koreans don't have (not to take anything away from them, obviously).
Furthermore Koreans don't get as many viewers because it's easier to be a fan of a foreigner.
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
Bomber twice as good as Idra... I guess that's why Bomber won against Idra by having hellions on the right place at the right time? Overall, yeah Bomber comes out on top, but twice as good? No
In fact, when I think about it I think the difference is even bigger than that.
He is probably three times better than idrA
Fraer has a 60% win rate in 2012 vs. EU players and a few Korean Code A-S players.
IdrA has a 32% win rate in 2012 vs. Korean Code A-S players and a few EU players.
Yeah, it's that bad for IdrA, but you don't get three times from that.
One thing stands out to me more then anything in this thread, and it has nothing to do with the stream numbers... Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.
OT: Some surprising people high up in that list but most of them were expected. Personally I don't watch streams of people that simply plays music when they play which is why I watch LoL streams over SC2 streams (even though I enjoy SC2 as a game more) because they commentate and interact with the viewers which is far more fun imo.
I think the peak viewers for some of these streamers are wrong, for example, I saw that MC once has around 15000 viewers just before he attended the HSC IV in his hotel
On May 01 2012 08:12 pumpy145 wrote: I think the peak viewers for some of these streamers are wrong, for example, I saw that MC once has around 15000 viewers just before he attended the HSC IV in his hotel
On May 01 2012 08:12 pumpy145 wrote: I think the peak viewers for some of these streamers are wrong, for example, I saw that MC once has around 15000 viewers just before he attended the HSC IV in his hotel
Yeah, I was in stephano's stream when he broke 13k, and that thing says sub 12k.
On May 01 2012 08:09 Fluffboll wrote: One thing stands out to me more then anything in this thread, and it has nothing to do with the stream numbers... Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.
OT: Some surprising people high up in that list but most of them were expected. Personally I don't watch streams of people that simply plays music when they play which is why I watch LoL streams over SC2 streams (even though I enjoy SC2 as a game more) because they commentate and interact with the viewers which is far more fun imo.
On May 01 2012 07:44 one-one-one wrote: Some people have mentioned that ST_Bomber and oGsForGG deserves more viewers.
I second this. How the hell can idrA get 10k viewers when the 2 guys above are at least twice as good as him?
And notice that terran players in general get relatively few viewers.
This is a general problem with the foreign scene - that people are more interested in zerg/protoss than terran. There are almost no SC2 front figures/casters on the foreign scene that play terran.
Stop being so hipster and recognize the incredible skill of top korean terrans!
Bomber twice as good as Idra... I guess that's why Bomber won against Idra by having hellions on the right place at the right time? Overall, yeah Bomber comes out on top, but twice as good? No
In fact, when I think about it I think the difference is even bigger than that.
He is probably three times better than idrA
Fraer has a 60% win rate in 2012 vs. EU players and a few Korean Code A-S players.
IdrA has a 32% win rate in 2012 vs. Korean Code A-S players and a few EU players.
Yeah, it's that bad for IdrA, but you don't get three times from that.
which code A-S players did Fraer play?
Leenock - loss 0-1 Polt - loss 3-5 Tails - win 2-0 Revival - win 2-0 Life - loss 0-2 Violet - loss 0-1 Hyun - win 2-1
I'm not going to bother arguing about them being in Code A-S at this time, but these players all reached Code A-S in the last year.
On May 01 2012 08:12 pumpy145 wrote: I think the peak viewers for some of these streamers are wrong, for example, I saw that MC once has around 15000 viewers just before he attended the HSC IV in his hotel
Yeah, I was in stephano's stream when he broke 13k, and that thing says sub 12k.
On May 01 2012 08:09 Fluffboll wrote: One thing stands out to me more then anything in this thread, and it has nothing to do with the stream numbers... Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.
OT: Some surprising people high up in that list but most of them were expected. Personally I don't watch streams of people that simply plays music when they play which is why I watch LoL streams over SC2 streams (even though I enjoy SC2 as a game more) because they commentate and interact with the viewers which is far more fun imo.
Because that does not mean I'm braindead?
Where did I say that? You making such a statement out of thin air does not help your situation...
Any person who is a fan of anyone is going to be unwise to argue against because their view is skewed towards whoever they are a fan of. With you displaying your stance so openly and easily available should deter anyone from arguing stuff that can't be proven with you.
On May 01 2012 08:09 Fluffboll wrote: One thing stands out to me more then anything in this thread, and it has nothing to do with the stream numbers... Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.
OT: Some surprising people high up in that list but most of them were expected. Personally I don't watch streams of people that simply plays music when they play which is why I watch LoL streams over SC2 streams (even though I enjoy SC2 as a game more) because they commentate and interact with the viewers which is far more fun imo.
Because that does not mean I'm braindead?
Where did I say that? You making such a statement out of thin air does not help your situation...
Any person who is a fan of anyone is going to be unwise to argue against because their view is skewed towards whoever they are a fan of. With you displaying your stance so openly and easily available should deter anyone from arguing stuff that can't be proven with you.
It was implied in the part: Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.'' I read this as if you are saying there's no point trying to discuss with me because I'm a fan.
Braindead perhaps not the best choice of words, but I don't see why people shouldn't try to discuss with me because I'm a fan of Idra
On May 01 2012 08:09 Fluffboll wrote: One thing stands out to me more then anything in this thread, and it has nothing to do with the stream numbers... Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.
OT: Some surprising people high up in that list but most of them were expected. Personally I don't watch streams of people that simply plays music when they play which is why I watch LoL streams over SC2 streams (even though I enjoy SC2 as a game more) because they commentate and interact with the viewers which is far more fun imo.
Because that does not mean I'm braindead?
Where did I say that? You making such a statement out of thin air does not help your situation...
Any person who is a fan of anyone is going to be unwise to argue against because their view is skewed towards whoever they are a fan of. With you displaying your stance so openly and easily available should deter anyone from arguing stuff that can't be proven with you.
It was implied in the part: Why would you try and argue with anyone who has "Idra fanboy all the way." in his signature? Boggles the mind really.'' I read this as if you are saying there's no point trying to discuss with me because I'm a fan.
Braindead perhaps not the best choice of words, but I don't see why people shouldn't try to discuss with me because I'm a fan of Idra
Read the second part of his last message as well, he explains why he said that. It's just 2 sentences, shouldnt take long.
On May 01 2012 05:26 CruiseR wrote: I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
I think you should judge players also based on how well they perform in all match ups. Just because you beat someone doesn't mean you are a better player than them. Say you have 2 players (A and B). Lets say both play Terran. Player A has exceptional TvT and can beat Player B pretty easily as Player B is crappy at TvT. However Player A has really bad TvZ and TvP while Player B has exceptional TvZ and TvP. Who would you claim is the better overall player if they each played players around their skill level? I would consider Player B to be the better player overall even if Player A can beat him 4/5 times.
On May 01 2012 05:26 CruiseR wrote: I just think IdrA is the most overrated player. Some polls i've seen recently kinda shocked me. I concluded that alot of people think IdrA is for sure in the top3 if it comes to foreigners, hell, to some people he's top1. I may have overreacted a bit, but I think Strelok, Scarlett or DieStar with their latest form have at least a 50/50 shot vs IdrA.
I think you should judge players also based on how well they perform in all match ups. Just because you beat someone doesn't mean you are a better player than them. Say you have 2 players (A and B). Lets say both play Terran. Player A has exceptional TvT and can beat Player B pretty easily as Player B is crappy at TvT. However Player A has really bad TvZ and TvP while Player B has exceptional TvZ and TvP. Who would you claim is the better overall player if they each played players around their skill level? I would consider Player B to be the better player overall even if Player A can beat him 4/5 times.
I dont think your tangent in particularly relevant to the guy you quoted. As far as I can see, he's not saying Strelok, Scarlett, or Diestar have 50/50 shots at Idra because they're vZ snipers or anything. Really they're not, though admittedly I dont know that much about Diestar. I'm not saying I think any of those people are better than Idra or that they have 50/50 shots at beating him (though I'm not saying I disagree either ), it just seems like your rant was a wee bit out of place.
It's funny how every time Idra's name is mentioned there seems to be this need to proclaim him top ten or top five foreigner. Who cares how he ranks, he's a foreigner so he's not going to win tournaments any time soon. Being the best foreigner is like being king of the losers, a totally irrelevant title.
On May 01 2012 08:57 aintz wrote: more ppl should give polt some love. i find his stream the easiest to watch as he doesnt not jump all over the place for no reason lol
Probably my favourite stream as well. Feels like I havent seen it in a while though T_T
I guess I mostly watch fOrGG since he's really good and streams super consistently. Nice to see he ranks pretty highly. :D
OH MAN Destiny's viewership has fallen way off since he switch to Own3d and started playing a shit ton of LoL. I hope he is regretting both those decisions, I miss the old Steven a lot T.T
On May 01 2012 08:57 aintz wrote: more ppl should give polt some love. i find his stream the easiest to watch as he doesnt not jump all over the place for no reason lol
Yeah, his stream is probably one of the best for korean play when you're not in mood for a headhake. Easy to learn things, builds, timings, and general good play. And good music too. :D What's more epic than Polt doing a Polt with some Castelvania Soundtrack behind. <3
Quite sad that League of Legends quite often has atleast 30-40 thousand people watching a streamer like Dyrus. It's just absurd how much money he earns by basicly not doing anything at all but enjoying himself playing a game like LoL...
There's a huge problem with this. Destiny is only 10th? Really? Every time I see him streaming he has at least 5k viewers. Surprised to see IdrA leading the pack.
On May 01 2012 08:57 aintz wrote: more ppl should give polt some love. i find his stream the easiest to watch as he doesnt not jump all over the place for no reason lol
Probably my favourite stream as well. Feels like I havent seen it in a while though T_T
I guess I mostly watch fOrGG since he's really good and streams super consistently. Nice to see he ranks pretty highly. :D
Hero's my fav. streamer he's so good and his style is pretty unique for protoss... you can copy MC for insane two-base timings but if you want to get better (try to) copy someone like hero...
Also are there other sites where players (specifically korean) stream? Like where do native koreans watch their streams? i would have thought their viewership would be much higher... or is this a dumb question?
On May 01 2012 09:12 Duggibobo wrote: Quite sad that League of Legends quite often has atleast 30-40 thousand people watching a streamer like Dyrus. It's just absurd how much money he earns by basicly not doing anything at all but enjoying himself playing a game like LoL...
yeah someone mentioned that earlier: they thought LoL streamers got better viewership because they were more active on the stream (they interacted with viewers and talked about their gameplay/strategy rather than just listening to music) ... i wouldn't know but i do notice that most sc2 streamers do just listen to music and don't really talk about the game... they may just be trying to concentrate on their game-play rather than trying to interact with viewers
On May 01 2012 09:12 Duggibobo wrote: Quite sad that League of Legends quite often has atleast 30-40 thousand people watching a streamer like Dyrus. It's just absurd how much money he earns by basicly not doing anything at all but enjoying himself playing a game like LoL...
yeah someone mentioned that earlier: they thought LoL streamers got better viewership because they were more active on the stream (they interacted with viewers and talked about their gameplay/strategy rather than just listening to music) ... i wouldn't know but i do notice that most sc2 streamers do just listen to music and don't really talk about the game... they may just be trying to concentrate on their game-play rather than trying to interact with viewers
i think a much simpler explanation is that there are just that many more people playing lol.
On May 01 2012 09:13 Areon wrote: There's a huge problem with this. Destiny is only 10th? Really? Every time I see him streaming he has at least 5k viewers. Surprised to see IdrA leading the pack.
IDK I'm surprised he even made it to 6.8k, probably was during a showmatch.
I think its both interesting an healthy for sc2 as a "sport" that the number one streamer is infact a very average player. Shows that people actually stick with their man, although he isn't performing very well at all. This is a good thing! Supporters are more important than fans!
On May 01 2012 09:12 Duggibobo wrote: Quite sad that League of Legends quite often has atleast 30-40 thousand people watching a streamer like Dyrus. It's just absurd how much money he earns by basicly not doing anything at all but enjoying himself playing a game like LoL...
How much does he make and how do streamers make money? like whats the viewer ratio to dollars per ad?
On May 01 2012 09:13 Areon wrote: There's a huge problem with this. Destiny is only 10th? Really? Every time I see him streaming he has at least 5k viewers. Surprised to see IdrA leading the pack.
When Destiny turns LoL on he drops down to around 1000 viewers. It hurts his averaged.
And people talking about all time peak viewership, this is from 3/22/2012 to today.
On May 01 2012 10:13 kyllinghest wrote: I think its both interesting an healthy for sc2 as a "sport" that the number one streamer is infact a very average player. Shows that people actually stick with their man, although he isn't performing very well at all. This is a good thing! Supporters are more important than fans!
disagree
if personality is valued more than player skill, then it places SC2 in a more tenuous position
example, whenever the last foreigner gets eliminated in a major tournament, concurrent stream viewership drops significantly because the SC2 general viewership is not a fan or can't relate to most Koreans due to language barrier
SC2 as an e-sport would be far bigger right now if the gap between Koreans and foreigners wasn't so noticeably big and currently there are only Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, and Thorzain keeping the foreigner hope alive. if Korea gets to the point where the best SC2 foreigner hope can only compete against Korea's B level players, then SC2 e-sports will start to die off
Idra's BM/controversial actions aren't the road to keeping SC2 relevant or growing as an e-sport. It's just an amusing diversion as a talking point.
When Idra was performing well, he was BY FAR the most popular streamer in terms of players. Obviously the most popular streamer in the SC2 scene is Day 9
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
The most popular ones yes, but not all of them. Also being a team game there are fewer LoL streamers than SC2 streamers. Or so it seems to me looking at stream lists. Meaning if you want to watch LoL there are fewer choices where with SC2 there are tons of pros and almost pros streaming at any given time so the viewers are more split up between them.
I do know players from Xpec share the channel here and there, so it is not always Hui streaming.
Edit: However, he does stream the most. His channel is pretty popular among Taiwanese community; hence the team often uses his channel to promote publicity.
No way idra is in the top 10-15 foreigners...but I think he's probably still top 20-30 EASILY. Losing to cheese constantly means you are bad, btw, no different to losing in macro games. Just off the top of my head, here's 15 foreigners that every pro-gamer would agree is better than idra: Huk (lots better) Thorzain (lots better) Naniwa (lots better) Grubby Sheth (lots better) Ret Sen Nerchio (lots better) Mana (lots better) Kas (lots better) Feast Stephano (lots better) Nightend Demuslim SaSe (lots better)
There's probably more, but those are just the first 15 I thought of. Being good at one matchup means being bad at two, which means being bad at Starcraft . idra is NOT bad, he is a fantastic player, but he is ina bit of a slump at the moment. He has the skill to get back into the top 3-5 again (where he was for most of last year, IMO), but he's nowhere near that recently.
On May 01 2012 12:53 althaz wrote: No way idra is in the top 10-15 foreigners...but I think he's probably still top 20-30 EASILY. Losing to cheese constantly means you are bad, btw, no different to losing in macro games. Just off the top of my head, here's 15 foreigners that every pro-gamer would agree is better than idra: Huk (lots better) Thorzain (lots better) Naniwa (lots better) Grubby Sheth (lots better) Ret Sen Nerchio (lots better) Mana (lots better) Kas (lots better) Feast Stephano (lots better) Nightend Demuslim SaSe (lots better)
There's probably more, but those are just the first 15 I thought of. Being good at one matchup means being bad at two, which means being bad at Starcraft . idra is NOT bad, he is a fantastic player, but he is ina bit of a slump at the moment. He has the skill to get back into the top 3-5 again (where he was for most of last year, IMO), but he's nowhere near that recently.
User was temp banned for this post.
Idra not in top 10? you kidding me? care to name me 10 foreigners who has more accomplishments than idra?
On May 01 2012 10:13 kyllinghest wrote: I think its both interesting an healthy for sc2 as a "sport" that the number one streamer is infact a very average player. Shows that people actually stick with their man, although he isn't performing very well at all. This is a good thing! Supporters are more important than fans!
disagree
if personality is valued more than player skill, then it places SC2 in a more tenuous position
example, whenever the last foreigner gets eliminated in a major tournament, concurrent stream viewership drops significantly because the SC2 general viewership is not a fan or can't relate to most Koreans due to language barrier
SC2 as an e-sport would be far bigger right now if the gap between Koreans and foreigners wasn't so noticeably big and currently there are only Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, and Thorzain keeping the foreigner hope alive. if Korea gets to the point where the best SC2 foreigner hope can only compete against Korea's B level players, then SC2 e-sports will start to die off
Idra's BM/controversial actions aren't the road to keeping SC2 relevant or growing as an e-sport. It's just an amusing diversion as a talking point.
"if personality is valued more than player skill, then it places SC2 in a more tenuous position"
It's not "if", it is.
" if Korea gets to the point where the best SC2 foreigner hope can only compete against Korea's B level players, then SC2 e-sports will start to die off"
Then it doesn't deserve to be an esport and games like LoL will take over.
The only logic behind there not being any foreigner pros good enough to compete is that there isn't a big enough fanbase to support that skill pool size necessary.
Skill doesn't matter much when it comes to the number of viewers. Most people like to watch their "homeboys" only. I would say in order to have a ton of viewers you need to be or have the followings, the most important on top:
1. Are you a foreigner? Obviously the most important factor, since 95% of people involving in Starcraft 2 are foreigners. When I watch Koreans' streams, I would say about 0.5% of the text in chat is Korean. The rest is in English. This doesn't mean any foreign streamer would get 4 digit viewers. You would need to have the followings too:
2. Are you an American? Probably 50% of Starcraft 2 fans are American. Idra is the billboard of American Starcraft. nuff said. People like to root and watch their home town hero.
3. Hypes True hypes or false hypes. Doesn't matter. You need to be a "paris hilton" and walk around swinging your tail and say "I'm hot and I have personality", "you don't have personality like Koreans? Boring....."
4. Code S. The least that matters, except if you're a foreign Code S player. Doesn't matter how many bailout seed you've received to obtain code S status, if you're a foreign Code S you get 10 times the viewers as a Korean Code S (not exagerating at all). If Naniwa doesn't get 6k viewers when he starts streaming again, I'll kill myself. Better to receive a seed than being a man in Code B Jinro!
Look at Jjakji! A code S champion and I've never even seen 1k viewers on his stream. He's not a foreigner. He doesn't have the hypes. All he has is a Code S trophy and somewhere around 300 to 500 viewers after he got his trophy and started streaming.
So, what's the deadliest combination? Foreigner (American would be a plus) + hype + personality + Code S (don't need to be a champion, twitch can't handle the viewer count)
On May 01 2012 14:50 NoGasfOu wrote: Skill doesn't matter much when it comes to the number of viewers. Most people like to watch their "homeboys" only. I would say in order to have a ton of viewers you need to be or have the followings, the most important on top:
1. Are you a foreigner? Obviously the most important factor, since 95% of people involving in Starcraft 2 are foreigners. When I watch Koreans' streams, I would say about 0.5% of the text in chat is Korean. The rest is in English. This doesn't mean any foreign streamer would get 4 digit viewers. You would need to have the followings too:
2. Are you an American? Probably 50% of Starcraft 2 fans are American. Idra is the billboard of American Starcraft. nuff said. People like to root and watch their home town hero.
3. Hypes True hypes or false hypes. Doesn't matter. You need to be a "paris hilton" and walk around swinging your tail and say "I'm hot and I have personality", "you don't have personality like Koreans? Boring....."
4. Code S. The least that matters, except if you're a foreign Code S player. Doesn't matter how many bailout seed you've received to obtain code S status, if you're a foreign Code S you get 10 times the viewers as a Korean Code S (not exagerating at all). If Naniwa doesn't get 6k viewers when he starts streaming again, I'll kill myself. Better to receive a seed than being a man in Code B Jinro!
Look at Jjakji! A code S champion and I've never even seen 1k viewers on his stream. He's not a foreigner. He doesn't have the hypes. All he has is a Code S trophy and somewhere around 300 to 500 viewers after he got his trophy and started streaming.
So, what's the deadliest combination? Foreigner (American would be a plus) + hype + personality + Code S (don't need to be a champion, twitch can't handle the viewer count)
I dun think twitch cannot handle idra's viewer count even though he fufils everything mentioned above
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
The most popular ones yes, but not all of them. Also being a team game there are fewer LoL streamers than SC2 streamers. Or so it seems to me looking at stream lists. Meaning if you want to watch LoL there are fewer choices where with SC2 there are tons of pros and almost pros streaming at any given time so the viewers are more split up between them.
i watch whitera most, such a good stream, providing comments, always focused and mannered, really entertaining. and whenever avaibable, incredible miracles stream and mkp, i also followed the slayers teambattles, really good stuff.
other then that, i really prefer tournaments and showmatches over playercreated content.
edit: and i am terran, but whitera is just too good.
On May 01 2012 03:50 Conti wrote: I'm not a programmer, but with some Google-fu I managed to hack together a python script that would periodically (every 15 minutes) check teamliquid.net, gather data for every single streamer currently streaming and save it all in a simple sqlite database. Another script takes the data and creates a table with the most popular streamers, ordered by their average stream views. I let my sqlite database grow for a bit more than a month now, and today I want to present my results to y'all.
sound slike your a pretty good programmer if you just woke up decided to do that and then just sat down and figured it out to me
On May 01 2012 03:50 Conti wrote: I'm not a programmer, but with some Google-fu I managed to hack together a python script that would periodically (every 15 minutes) check teamliquid.net, gather data for every single streamer currently streaming and save it all in a simple sqlite database. Another script takes the data and creates a table with the most popular streamers, ordered by their average stream views. I let my sqlite database grow for a bit more than a month now, and today I want to present my results to y'all.
sound slike your a pretty good programmer if you just woke up decided to do that and then just sat down and figured it out to me
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
The most popular ones yes, but not all of them. Also being a team game there are fewer LoL streamers than SC2 streamers. Or so it seems to me looking at stream lists. Meaning if you want to watch LoL there are fewer choices where with SC2 there are tons of pros and almost pros streaming at any given time so the viewers are more split up between them.
This graphs says starcraft. Is it refering to SC2? I know at least on team liquid I always see at least 3x more SC2 streams than LoL. If its refering to BW than it makes sense. In fact as im posting this there are 47 SC2 streams compared to 5 LOL (if you include the non featured) and its normally around the same ratio.
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
The most popular ones yes, but not all of them. Also being a team game there are fewer LoL streamers than SC2 streamers. Or so it seems to me looking at stream lists. Meaning if you want to watch LoL there are fewer choices where with SC2 there are tons of pros and almost pros streaming at any given time so the viewers are more split up between them.
This graphs says starcraft. Is it refering to SC2? I know at least on team liquid I always see at least 3x more SC2 streams than LoL. If its refering to BW than it makes sense. In fact as im posting this there are 47 SC2 streams compared to 5 LOL (if you include the non featured) and its normally around the same ratio.
On May 01 2012 04:15 IMoperator wrote: You see Idra's numbers and think that's a lot but then you realize that LoL streamers get basically double that consistently. Pretty crazy.
The most popular ones yes, but not all of them. Also being a team game there are fewer LoL streamers than SC2 streamers. Or so it seems to me looking at stream lists. Meaning if you want to watch LoL there are fewer choices where with SC2 there are tons of pros and almost pros streaming at any given time so the viewers are more split up between them.
I'm a moderator for Hui's stream and I can confirm that multiple Xpec IronMen players share his stream. The main ones that I've seen play on his stream include:
Hui, team captain of XpecIM, Protoss player JoJo, a Zerg player on XpecIM active roster Ian, a Zerg trainee for XpecIM Manner, coach of XpecIM, Protoss player
Occasionally he will also show/commentate clanwars or TeSL (Taiwan eSports League) live on the stream as well. Most of his viewers are from Taiwan, but Hui does interact with English speaking viewers as well. The other people who share his stream focus mainly on the Taiwanese audience though...
Hui hasn't been around the past few days because he went to participate in the NVIDIA Gaming Festival tournament in China. He lost 1-2 in the first round to the eventual winner, MacSed (Chinese Protoss).
I am surprised demuslims stream isnt higher. Everybody loves his stream because he really tries to interact with his fans and is actually a pretty cool guy!
Since multiple people now mentioned how Destiny lost a lot of viewers since he started playing LoL I decided to have a look and see if it is true. He also streamed a couple of hours as "Misc", which I included here as well.
Average viewers when streaming SC2: 3253. Peak: 6876
Average viewers when streaming LoL: 2036. Peak: 4213
Average viewers when streaming Misc: 1524. Peak: 2685
Yup, looks like you guys are right. Destiny loses about a third of his viewers when he plays LoL.
On May 01 2012 19:11 waspen94 wrote: How long back goes these numbers? Shouldn't Artosis be on it? He may not stream very often but when he does he gets a ton of viewers
As I said in the OP, I started gathering data on 22.03.12. Artosis has not streamed since then.
On May 01 2012 18:55 PeterDLai wrote: I'm a moderator for Hui's stream and I can confirm that multiple Xpec IronMen players share his stream. The main ones that I've seen play on his stream include:
Hui, team captain of XpecIM, Protoss player JoJo, a Zerg player on XpecIM active roster Ian, a Zerg trainee for XpecIM Manner, coach of XpecIM, Protoss player
Occasionally he will also show/commentate clanwars or TeSL (Taiwan eSports League) live on the stream as well. Most of his viewers are from Taiwan, but Hui does interact with English speaking viewers as well. The other people who share his stream focus mainly on the Taiwanese audience though...
Hui hasn't been around the past few days because he went to participate in the NVIDIA Gaming Festival tournament in China. He lost 1-2 in the first round to the eventual winner, MacSed (Chinese Protoss).
On May 02 2012 23:06 BBMorti wrote: Kinda odd the Korean stars have so low view counts, do the Korean fans not watch streams?
I dare say that Starcraft 2 is still much bigger outside of Korea than inside, and that the large majority of stream viewers are non-Koreans, though I have no data for this.
It might be interesting to graph the times the Koreans stream to see if they stream at hours convenient for Koreans or us Foreigners.
Wow.. destiny, maximusblack and ForGG putting in work. Gonna have to check those guys out cause I hardly ever watched them before. Always like to support the streamers who do it often. Glad to see whitera doing well because I always check him out. Polt is doing well be should be more popular. He does team games with fans!
Koreans score low indeed,relative to their fame and skill. Not sure why, maybe foreigners like to see foreigners more then koreans, it can also have to do with the time at wich they are streaming. Koreans often stream when its morning in europe and manny fans are at school/work? Personally i always go Polt/Mkp/Stephano/Idra first and if none of them are streaming i look at other streams.
Destiny still doing well. Somewhat suprised idra still tops stephano, but idra is still IDRA It definatly cant be for his music choise lol.
Some posts here got me curious to find out when the Korean pros are streaming their games, and if they intentionally stream at times that would be convenient for the foreign fans. So I took all the Koreans from the top 50* and plotted their streaming hours by time of day. Behold! (Large version also here) Note that the largest spike, around 3pm KST, translates into 11pm PDT, not too bad a time for the fans in the west coast to watch streams, while the other spike, around 2am KST, translates into 7pm CEST, a very convenient time for us Europeans to watch streams. So, yeah, it looks to me like the Koreans do cater more to us foreigners than to the Korean fans at home, most likely because there's simply a whole lot more of foreign fans than Korean fans out there.
On May 03 2012 03:24 Conti wrote: Some posts here got me curious to find out when the Korean pros are streaming their games, and if they intentionally stream at times that would be convenient for the foreign fans. So I took all the Koreans from the top 50* and plotted their streaming hours by time of day. Behold! (Large version also here) Note that the largest spike, around 3pm KST, translates into 11pm PDT, not too bad a time for the fans in the west coast to watch streams, while the other spike, around 2am KST, translates into 7pm CEST, a very convenient time for us Europeans to watch streams. So, yeah, it looks to me like the Koreans do cater more to us foreigners than to the Korean fans at home, most likely because there's simply a whole lot more of foreign fans than Korean fans out there.
Interesting graph. I guess it would be possible to get confirmation from asking someone like Polt, or Hero whether Korean pros specifically target foreign audiences or whether they just stream at hours that are convenient for themselves. From what I have learned from Liquid players staying at OGS House and from Artosis' interviews, Korean pro-gamers stay up past 2am as normal practice and rise late at noon/early afternoon. The hours they keep are certainly not regular office hours in Korea.
LoL streamers are so top notch when it comes to streams. My friend TSMDyrus tops like 40+++k and average about 16+k/everyday.
I guess the attention to starcraft2 isn't as high yet and the way RIOT handles esports and community is much better than blizzard. I think if blizzard would care a lot more the viewers would increase greatly.
I think this is wrong, just because destiny peaked at one point 7-8k RIGHT before he switched to own3d, and especially because he peaked at 11k during charity. Good work, i just think more might be wrong cause of this info.
Not all that surprising for numbers honestly, thought Destiny might be a bit higher but seeing as how much LoL he plays now its understandable that his viewer count is down
On May 05 2012 09:19 HikariPrime wrote: I think this is wrong, just because destiny peaked at one point 7-8k RIGHT before he switched to own3d, and especially because he peaked at 11k during charity. Good work, i just think more might be wrong cause of this info.
As I said in the OP, I started gathering the data on 22.03.12. The peak numbers you mention happened before that.
EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/top50.png)
):
Xpec Ironmen. And yes, he really does stream this much.
I'm still not sure if it's really the same guy streaming all the time or if it's all live, though. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QgFSY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DqTYC.png)
