EPTThe main focus is on interesting map interactions. Let's worry about the primary things to improve instead of the more minute areas of 'strategic variety.' Having chronoboost options is irrelevant if there are only a few strategies that are viable in a matchup.
Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 55
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
The main focus is on interesting map interactions. Let's worry about the primary things to improve instead of the more minute areas of 'strategic variety.' Having chronoboost options is irrelevant if there are only a few strategies that are viable in a matchup. | ||
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Gebus
Canada25 Posts
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:04 Snijjer wrote: "SC2 is more about positional attacks and SC1 is more about unit micro." - Saracen What's wrong with this? This is literally what realistic combat is like. I think I speak for everyone when I say that we don't play Starcraft everyday for the taste of realistic combat. ^^ | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:12 Gebus wrote: so....now with 6M2G +500 total mineral nodes, this gives more gas to mineral mining ratio, right? I missed the explanation for why this is ok... 6min 1hyg is what Barrin wants SC2 to come to. Right now, although, it is important that the transition be progressive. Anyway, the M/G ratio isn't that important. Players will adapt eventually and there still are patches if it comes down to that, and balance will be pretty messy after HotS anyway. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:10 Barrin wrote: Well, there's a bunch of links right next to that quote that explain it... You might like that last one from day9 so I unspoilered it. Can't watch the video now but I will and come back to comment ^^ | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
(Personally, I've been theorizing that foreigners back in BW analyzed Korean play and figured out they needed to have constant production, but that perhaps constant production may actually be the result of what the Koreans do, not the cause, and maybe they build constantly because they really feel the need to get out that next unit, or something like that. Another discussion for another time, but perhaps 6m brings us closer to that.) | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:13 Gosi wrote: I think I speak for everyone when I say that we don't play Starcraft everyday for the taste of realistic combat. ^^ I dont think you would be speaking for everyone and I think you're underestimating how much realism plays a part in the reason people play games. If people didn't care for realism graphics in gaming, movies etc wouldn't have changed in the last 10 years. But we both know that isn't true. The entire graphics field of technology is about realism. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:13 Gosi wrote: I think I speak for everyone when I say that we don't play Starcraft everyday for the taste of realistic combat. ^^ Sc Bw is much more about positional attacks in my opinion and as a player who plays terran . Tank positioning and unit flanking is really important, when do I siege ? when should I move out ? should I unsiege now when there is a clear path in front of me ? Doing all this while macroing ..... This is why I love playing Terran in broodwar so much . Sc2 doesn't give me this choice at all, terran bio in sc2 is so strong that I don't even need to use tanks in my normal TvP any more . | ||
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Xirroh
Canada146 Posts
So by the 10-12 minute mark you would be up 800 gas from 1 base. With a 5minute expand, your 12 minute gas bonus would be around 1200ish total. That is a lot of extra gas. However there is a mineral cost to extract that gas. With minerals in such short supply, it will actually be an investment to get the extra gas. So while a player who goes 2 or 4 gas early will be able to access high tech/upgrades faster, they will have even less minerals to defend with while trying to reach that tech/upgrades compared to a 1gas player. There is a risk/reward system at play here. This is good. 2 base muta might be really strong with this system. _> more gas for early muta, less minerals for Marines / turrets. I don't think it would imbalance the early game because of the cost of getting the extra gas. I don't think a player will just be able to rush for 2/4 gas early like they can now. Late game players will have access to more gas then now though...except that we added mineral only expands! late game problem of gas imbalance: solved. Also: Could this extra gas give strategies like Mech more viability? Would we see Reapers and other such units used more? I hope so! | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:29 Snijjer wrote: I dont think you would be speaking for everyone and I think you're underestimating how much realism plays a part in the reason people play games. If people didn't care for realism graphics in gaming, movies etc wouldn't have changed in the last 10 years. But we both know that isn't true. The entire graphics field of technology is about realism. Realism in games and movies? lol People might think that, but realism and "looking good" most of the time are mutually exclusive. Especialy in war and fight related stuff. They catter to fantasy, not realism. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
On March 22 2012 01:41 Barrin wrote: This is basically what I have been saying. "Improper risk vs reward when microing" "low/sharp skill cap" "slippery balance" I think the incentives are already there. What's happening is not a raising of the incentive, but just frees up more "space" in between the macro because of the lower rate of income. It's not so much potential where people just need to get better (though that is obviously true), but more so that other aspects of the game were tuned down, so micro becomes proportionately better. | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
I think the game is so fast paced there are fewer opportunities to hit these cool timings that are present in brood war, by slowing the economy down in SC2 we essentially slow down the pace of the game allowing players to analyse and counter-play more effectively. Not only will this be more interesting to watch, but it should help make the better player win more often. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On March 22 2012 00:14 Umpteen wrote: I don't see how the logic is faulty. Imagine your main had eight patches and your natural just one. Would one base aggression versus an expanding player put you as far behind as it would if the natural had eight patches? No: the advantage of taking the expansion is small and accumulates slowly. Now imagine your main had six patches and your natural had ten. Pretty clearly, failed one base aggression versus an expanding player would put you more behind than it does now, because the advantage is large and ramps up rapidly There's a pretty clear curve here: fewer resources at the natural than in the main makes one-base play less all-in, more resources at the natural than in the main makes it more all-in. Also, the fewer patches there are in the main, the more all-in one-base play becomes because the resources to build and defend a late expansion accumulate more slowly. Thus, in terms of favouring 1-base play: 8main/1nat >>>> 8main/6nat >> 8main/8nat >> 6main/6nat. You are missing the point, the 1-base player can now simply take his nat and have a comeback chance since he got the same amount of resources at his nat The reward of expanding is greater with more minerals at nat of course. But it is the effect that the 1-base will lose production if the nat has less resources that makes a difference. This force his 1-base play to be all-in, he can't expand to his nat and keep up his production if it has less resources. So in fact it makes 1-base plays more all-in if it fails, just because the reward of expanding is less. This puts a clock on the 1-base play. 6m base/nat just makes 1-base weaker but doesn't put a clock on that type of strats. I think that 6m per expo will really benefit zerg too much over the other races since they more easily can tale expo, and since 1-base play is going to be weaker they got less risk in doing so. Overall when you wage that factor in I have great concern for the low amount of mineral field in the main, but to force players to expand you need less resources at nat. I don't think it encourages 1-base play, it will encourage people to take 2-bases faster, since you can hold off 1-base with your 2-bases and when the 1-base player have to expand you excel. | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
The only way people know how to micro these units is the way it was done in previous games. We literally try to micro SC2 units like units from other games and then adjust based on the differences. So, people find out that certain old methods of micro don't work in SC2 and they don't know any other way of microing so they say there is no micro. Then they demand that Blizzard replicates the old ways. But I think Nony only hit on part of the problem. It's not just the way of microing people are stuck on - it's their entire view of what a RTS game (namely SC) should be. But the idea that some key aspects of SC2's gameplay does not live up to it's predecessor is not new at all. I will not challenge the fact that some aspects of SC's gameplay do not live up to it's predecessors. What I am challenging is why does it have to? If you could say your problem (what you said in the OP) in 1 sentence how would you say it? | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
There is many videos of game AI doing incredible game changing micro tricks, like 100 zerglings versus 20 tanks. I know that humans are not able to do that, but it shows that the skill cap is very high when it comes to microing units. 100 zerglings winning 20 tanks tells us, that it is possible that humans are able to do something midway to this and there is alot to learn yet. Current microing what we see in current sc2 pro games, are not even close to what humans are capable of in sc2 game engine. Sometimes micro is more important than macro, sometimes player just has to ignore that you need to produce new units or make new production facilities. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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