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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
They really should rehire him. I think he had the best synergy with the rest of the EG players casting.
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I hate racism. I don't know if this is the real Orb (99% sure) but if it is, i don't want to see him in the SC2 community anymore
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Wow... Well done for taking the stance that you did and backing it up in such a well thought out fashion. My respect for EG definitely went up after reading that.
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On March 09 2012 22:59 Greentellon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:54 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:52 Greentellon wrote:
Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words. i can handle being insulted but i think it is unacceptable that homophobic/racist language be used especially by people in public positions. If you have a complete lack of context awareness I guess you could think like that.
I dont think context has anything to do with it especially with the words faggot and nigger, but you can carry on thinking what you want.
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On March 09 2012 22:41 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:29 MrTortoise wrote:On March 09 2012 22:24 DR.Ham wrote:On March 09 2012 22:12 zul wrote:On March 09 2012 21:51 Jinks_ wrote:
i hate racist people gg no re I hate stupidity. How can one sane man judge orb for a racist based on these screenshots. An Idiot? Yeah, that seems to fit, but not a racist. Narrow-minded people seem to need a target to throw their morals at. I wish people would wake up and see how racism/sexism really works. It`s not the people that make stupid comments, who make it hard for certain groups, it`s the people that smile in your face, but literally throw stones in the way of gays, women, blacks, atheist, muslims or whatever. Huge difference! Let me tell you something. One of my best friends is actually gay and my hetero friends and me used to make some jokes about gay stuff for years. Yeah that seems stupid, but my gay friend didn`t mind and joked back. If he would have a problem with it, we wouldn`t have done. But you know what? I love that guy and so do my other friends. I am pretty sure that all of us would literally fight with and for him, if some stupid fucks would harras him for being gay. Words and actions are not always the same and people should learn the fucking difference. I know this whole topic is very hot and I too am very emotional about it, so I want to apologize for some bad words. But it angers and depresses me, that some people act like the morality police, but than do way worse stuff, when they participate in actions to destroy someones life and get him fired. Use your energy for better things! You have to remember, in any other public sphere, this conversation would not be happening, because he would have been fired and no one would defend him. Remember the golfer who asked Tiger Woods about fried chicken? No bad words, but he was instantly a social pariah. Orb is just being held to the normal standards of society, which we should strive for. We should not (IMO) strive to let people be as crass as possible, we should try and better ourselves. I also feel bad for the guy, but he is young, and will bounce back hopefully. But jsu tbecause he was made a social priah doesnt make that right. You have totally misunderstood what that guy was saying. In short STOP CAUSING FIGHTS YOU IDIOTS, THERE IS NO NEED FOR IT. THe guy was made a social priah because people are ass hats to each other. You ahve a choice, join them and be a hater and live a miserable life that depends on others failures for you joy at their demise or you can just go 'crap that was a really stupid thing to say, do you realise that a lot of bigots will think your racist, are you racist? No, well i strongly suggest you stop usign that word or else we will have to take formal action' I was not causing a fight, I'm not really sure what you mean by that, please don't call me an idiot. This was caused by orb behaving in an unacceptable manner, no one else. I do think what he did was unacceptable, not to try and bring him down, but because that is where my moral compass lies. It certainly does not bring any joy, it's a really sad situation, but if people learn to behave a bit better, something positive can come of it.
You do realise that the concept of 'cause' is really broken and ends in an infinite regression right?
Cause all depends on where you stop the line of questioning - you just pick somewhere convenient.
Yes you are able to take the moral high ground - and maybe you are not just a troll spilling out hate - but you have to admit that a lot of people are. Just look at the pattern, just look at all the rage on reddit.
So no nobody caused you to post or to be angry except you and your reactions to the world. You have to take responsibility for that otherwise you have no personality and are simply reacting to the world. Now you can use your moral high ground, but you have to ask what are you trying to accomplish? Because last time i checked action had been taken already. Now people are just arguing about the past, presumably because they like to argue. Sure you can cite morality for the past .. but what about now.
I wasn't even calling you an idiot, i used the word idiots which applies to a group. (but if you do believe that we should aim for the normal standards of society then i may have to change my mind. The normal is precisley an average of all the good and bad. The normal moral code is not good by definition and if that's your target well i have to say i have higher standards for what i want to aim for.)
You notice how it isnt immoral for someone to do something moral if they dont have a cohice. The stealing banker is always more wrong than the homeless guy stealing bread to feed himself. The reason why racism is bad is because i treat you differently based on your race, the result of that can be tragic. Calling someone a nigger is wrong and it is racist but on the scale of racism at least he isnt treating the guys he calls niggers as slaves. Not all racism is the same yet people treat calling someone a frog as if i were trying to implement a caste sytem or just plain exercising a right to eugenics. What I see in other cultures (apart from black on white) is a massive amount of racism, seekh, hindu, pakistani, muslim, countries and religions are at each other all the time ... a lot of it is jovial. If you mention black on white racism then all hell breaks lose. Its disproportionate ... all because people in the US insisted on slavery and then even till this day have refused to educate people.
Racism is bad because it can be hateful (noone can seriously claim that an englishman, frenchman and a german in a bar having food together taking the mick out of each others cultures and having a great time is bad). The problem is the HATE. What i see in moral objectors is using a moral objection as their vehicle for HATE. That is just as evil as the race crime in the first place. If not moreso because its so hard to get people to admit it.
The equivalent argument is lets ban cameras in schools because of all the paedos.
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On March 09 2012 22:55 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:39 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:35 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:34 Tobberoth wrote:
What people need to realize is that "gay" and "nigger" are already insults like "retard" or "dumbass". Yeah, they became insults because of homophobia and racism, people who hated black people called people they disliked "nigger" as an insult. That doesn't mean someone today using those words as insults are racist or homophobic, they are just using known insults. If you call someone "idiot", do you literally think of "a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."? No? Because that is what it means and where the insult comes from. But you don't know that, you just need an insult and say what comes to mind. Same with people who use "nigger" as an insult, they aren't literally saying "you're bad, so you're a nigger because blacks are bad and so are you", they are just using an insult which they consider strong. I think retard is a stronger insult than idiot, but if you go by the historical meaning of the terms, idiot is actually far worse. But we DON'T go by historical meanings. They are still racist and homophobic just stop being biggoted and realise that >.> . No they aren't. You're misunderstanding their use of language and attributing views to them they might very well not have. i understand they may not mean it in a homophobic sense but the word itself is homophobic and downgrading. That is subjective. Saying someone is "gay" as an insult doesn't have to be homophobic, even though it certainly could be in some contexts. We can all agree that it's because of homophobia that the word is even considered an insult, but this is historical fact and it's subjective how much we have to respect that. Personally, I feel like we should try to stop words from becoming insults based on such things as racism, homophobia and antifeminism... but I feel it's WAAY to late to do anything about "gay" and "nigger", those words have been considered insults for longer as we've been alive. All you have to do is accept that they are mere insults, and the problem basically disappears, until people become really offended and sensitive about it.
Isn't this just blaming the victim (the people who are offended) rather than the perpetrator (the people using racist/homophobic language)?
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On March 09 2012 23:00 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:59 Greentellon wrote:On March 09 2012 22:54 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:52 Greentellon wrote:
Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words. i can handle being insulted but i think it is unacceptable that homophobic/racist language be used especially by people in public positions. If you have a complete lack of context awareness I guess you could think like that. I dont think context has anything to do with it especially with the words faggot and nigger, but you can carry on thinking what you want.
Sorry, I edited my post but you didn't see it I think. So you also think Idra should be kicked out of EG for same kind of offensive language?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang)
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This is a very clear example of how Alex Garfield let himself be pushed into a corner and hammered into submission by the crazed SC2 community mob. Really - I highly doubt Orb would get fired if all the crazy ppl would not message EG's sponsors, therefore potentially hurting their income. He would get a slap on the wrist, like IdrA has in the past (repeatedly, might I add - and is still getting slapped around quite a bit). So yeah - Money. Money is what this was all about. Not values or principles. Dollars played the largest role in decisionmaking. End of story. And though I never liked EG for their "we wanna make as much money as possible" attitude, this totally lost me respect for the management. It's just so ridiculous and hypocritical. IMHO, all of what I said, ofc.
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On March 09 2012 22:59 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:55 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:39 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:35 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:34 Tobberoth wrote:
What people need to realize is that "gay" and "nigger" are already insults like "retard" or "dumbass". Yeah, they became insults because of homophobia and racism, people who hated black people called people they disliked "nigger" as an insult. That doesn't mean someone today using those words as insults are racist or homophobic, they are just using known insults. If you call someone "idiot", do you literally think of "a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."? No? Because that is what it means and where the insult comes from. But you don't know that, you just need an insult and say what comes to mind. Same with people who use "nigger" as an insult, they aren't literally saying "you're bad, so you're a nigger because blacks are bad and so are you", they are just using an insult which they consider strong. I think retard is a stronger insult than idiot, but if you go by the historical meaning of the terms, idiot is actually far worse. But we DON'T go by historical meanings. They are still racist and homophobic just stop being biggoted and realise that >.> . No they aren't. You're misunderstanding their use of language and attributing views to them they might very well not have. i understand they may not mean it in a homophobic sense but the word itself is homophobic and downgrading. That is subjective. Saying someone is "gay" as an insult doesn't have to be homophobic, even though it certainly could be in some contexts. We can all agree that it's because of homophobia that the word is even considered an insult, but this is historical fact and it's subjective how much we have to respect that. Personally, I feel like we should try to stop words from becoming insults based on such things as racism, homophobia and antifeminism... but I feel it's WAAY to late to do anything about "gay" and "nigger", those words have been considered insults for longer as we've been alive. All you have to do is accept that they are mere insults, and the problem basically disappears, until people become really offended and sensitive about it. I dont think its historical when there is alot of hate crime towards gay people and you can be killed in some countries for being gay. Also in the most liberal countries gay people still cant even get married for instance, so calling it an historical issue is laughable.
I don't know if you're trolling. I'm talking about using "gay" as an insult, I'm NOT saying homophobia is an historical issue, I thought that was pretty much crystal clear.
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On March 09 2012 22:48 Gajarell wrote:
He didn't used nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
I've read a few posts like this in the thread.....I'm going to need this explained to me. Go.
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The hatred of that word is so great in this country that people react to it excessively, in my opinion.
Should he have done it? No, but it shouldn't be a reason to can a guy for it.
As silly as it sounds, i refer to the southpark episode when Randy blasted the N word on wheel of fortune (instead if nagger) and the rest of his life he will be remembered for it. (it happened in real life to someone, YouTube it if you are bored).
Anyways, it brings up how Michael Richards, Dwane Chapman, and a few others are forever lambasted for it, despite everything else they have done in their life. And I would argue unjustly lambasted, but like abortion this topic is insanely polarizing. Everyone is engrained in their view and almost nothing will change it.
The dude made a mistake. Slap his hand and move on with life. It shouldn't used as a reason to get fired over.
Unfortunately the PC police always win, and Orb has to pay the price for it. I wish him luck.
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On March 09 2012 23:01 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:55 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:39 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:35 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:34 Tobberoth wrote:
What people need to realize is that "gay" and "nigger" are already insults like "retard" or "dumbass". Yeah, they became insults because of homophobia and racism, people who hated black people called people they disliked "nigger" as an insult. That doesn't mean someone today using those words as insults are racist or homophobic, they are just using known insults. If you call someone "idiot", do you literally think of "a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."? No? Because that is what it means and where the insult comes from. But you don't know that, you just need an insult and say what comes to mind. Same with people who use "nigger" as an insult, they aren't literally saying "you're bad, so you're a nigger because blacks are bad and so are you", they are just using an insult which they consider strong. I think retard is a stronger insult than idiot, but if you go by the historical meaning of the terms, idiot is actually far worse. But we DON'T go by historical meanings. They are still racist and homophobic just stop being biggoted and realise that >.> . No they aren't. You're misunderstanding their use of language and attributing views to them they might very well not have. i understand they may not mean it in a homophobic sense but the word itself is homophobic and downgrading. That is subjective. Saying someone is "gay" as an insult doesn't have to be homophobic, even though it certainly could be in some contexts. We can all agree that it's because of homophobia that the word is even considered an insult, but this is historical fact and it's subjective how much we have to respect that. Personally, I feel like we should try to stop words from becoming insults based on such things as racism, homophobia and antifeminism... but I feel it's WAAY to late to do anything about "gay" and "nigger", those words have been considered insults for longer as we've been alive. All you have to do is accept that they are mere insults, and the problem basically disappears, until people become really offended and sensitive about it. Isn't this just blaming the victim (the people who are offended) rather than the perpetrator (the people using racist/homophobic language)?
My whole point is that it isn't racist/homophobic language just because that's the etymological history. People use these words as generic insults because they are used as generic insults, that's how language evolves and it's perfectly natural.
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On March 09 2012 23:02 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:48 Gajarell wrote:
He didn't used nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
I've read a few posts like this in the thread.....I'm going to need this explained to me. Go.
The claim these people are making is that he didn't know the race of the person he was playing so it couldn't have been racism. However, it's still highly inappropriate to use those kinds of words in any situation.
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On March 09 2012 22:59 ePLocust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:again, more bull shit. how many years has he been offensive in this community? just because he has stoped saying the word a few months ago does not make up for the years of him being offensive in the first place. congratz, it took him all this time to finally come clean. and guess what? he is still BM as shit, he just doesnt use the strong terms like "faggot" anymore. but he is still immature, BM, and non respectful to most ppl on ladder. If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it. Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself." Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc. "Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about. holy fuck. let me spell it out for you. orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean. keep being biased bro. I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up.
funny, because it hasnt haunted destiny yet, only made him money. even after the mia rose incident he is still on quantic. same for idra. but w/e.
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On March 09 2012 23:01 Greentellon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:00 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:59 Greentellon wrote:On March 09 2012 22:54 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:52 Greentellon wrote:
Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words. i can handle being insulted but i think it is unacceptable that homophobic/racist language be used especially by people in public positions. If you have a complete lack of context awareness I guess you could think like that. I dont think context has anything to do with it especially with the words faggot and nigger, but you can carry on thinking what you want. Sorry, I edited my post but you didn't see it I think. So you also think Idra should be kicked out of EG for same kind of offensive language?
Well thats a tough question he should be punished by EG and i believe he has which is why he hasn't said it recently but i can accept he isnt going to be fired because he is a big money maker for EG i accept the reality of economics with idra but I will say that any homophobic/racist language is unacceptable and complain to EG.
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Hats off to you Alex. Thank you so much for clearing everything up.
Very informative and very intelligently written post.
I used to be a fan of EG because of their players, but now I love EG for their players, management and decisions.
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For every angry bigot in this thread, there will be more who will applaud EG's decision. Much love to EG. People who point to Idra and call 'hypocrite' are the biggest hypocrites out there.
They should demand that Idra should also not use bigoted slurs. But instead, they are argue 'hypocrisy' to support bigoted behaviour.
Again, let there be reconciliation. Orb's apology is good. I like it. I will watch Orb's stream since I do enjoy his casts. If he behaves like this again, then I'll have to stop watching - simple as that.
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On March 09 2012 23:04 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:59 ePLocust wrote:On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:again, more bull shit. how many years has he been offensive in this community? just because he has stoped saying the word a few months ago does not make up for the years of him being offensive in the first place. congratz, it took him all this time to finally come clean. and guess what? he is still BM as shit, he just doesnt use the strong terms like "faggot" anymore. but he is still immature, BM, and non respectful to most ppl on ladder. If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it. Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself." Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc. "Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about. holy fuck. let me spell it out for you. orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean. keep being biased bro. I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up. funny, because it hasnt haunted destiny yet, only made him money. even after the mia rose incident he is still on quantic. same for idra. but w/e.
What happened? with mia Rose.
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He had to go. The n word isn't calling someone based on their country of origin, it goes far beyond that. Also calling someone a fag, there are many US politicians I can imagine have used that word. They'd be commiting political suicide using the n word.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On March 09 2012 23:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:01 DR.Ham wrote:On March 09 2012 22:55 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:39 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:35 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:34 Tobberoth wrote:
What people need to realize is that "gay" and "nigger" are already insults like "retard" or "dumbass". Yeah, they became insults because of homophobia and racism, people who hated black people called people they disliked "nigger" as an insult. That doesn't mean someone today using those words as insults are racist or homophobic, they are just using known insults. If you call someone "idiot", do you literally think of "a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."? No? Because that is what it means and where the insult comes from. But you don't know that, you just need an insult and say what comes to mind. Same with people who use "nigger" as an insult, they aren't literally saying "you're bad, so you're a nigger because blacks are bad and so are you", they are just using an insult which they consider strong. I think retard is a stronger insult than idiot, but if you go by the historical meaning of the terms, idiot is actually far worse. But we DON'T go by historical meanings. They are still racist and homophobic just stop being biggoted and realise that >.> . No they aren't. You're misunderstanding their use of language and attributing views to them they might very well not have. i understand they may not mean it in a homophobic sense but the word itself is homophobic and downgrading. That is subjective. Saying someone is "gay" as an insult doesn't have to be homophobic, even though it certainly could be in some contexts. We can all agree that it's because of homophobia that the word is even considered an insult, but this is historical fact and it's subjective how much we have to respect that. Personally, I feel like we should try to stop words from becoming insults based on such things as racism, homophobia and antifeminism... but I feel it's WAAY to late to do anything about "gay" and "nigger", those words have been considered insults for longer as we've been alive. All you have to do is accept that they are mere insults, and the problem basically disappears, until people become really offended and sensitive about it. Isn't this just blaming the victim (the people who are offended) rather than the perpetrator (the people using racist/homophobic language)? My whole point is that it isn't racist/homophobic language just because that's the etymological history. People use these words as generic insults because they are used as generic insults, that's how language evolves and it's perfectly natural.
The problem with that is that there is still a lot of racist and homophobic connotations associated with those words. Maybe sometime in the future all that connotation will have gone and they can be used as a generic insult but that definitely isn't the case at the moment.
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