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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
Let me get this straight,
Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc.
He didn't use nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
He did this prior to his contract with EG.
He got fired because people rose a shitstorm of moral outrage, complaining to EG and their sponsors.
I'm feeling concerned about this witchhunt style of persecution, which makes me believe that you can get anyone fired/you can destroy anyones life for completly arbitary reasons if you just put enough effort into researching every inch of his life.
Due to the sheer lack of anything to condemn, i'm going to file a complain to EG and every single one of their sponsors, even if it's just to restore some kind of balance in the universe - -"
And btw i never got that disgusted by any kind of hypocrisy like in this thread.
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On March 09 2012 22:47 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:46 Klondikebar wrote:On March 09 2012 22:41 KaiserJohan wrote:On March 09 2012 22:29 Klondikebar wrote:On March 09 2012 22:28 KaiserJohan wrote:On March 09 2012 22:20 vasculaR wrote:On March 09 2012 22:08 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:06 Uracil wrote:On March 09 2012 22:05 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:04 Uracil wrote:
It's ironic how this thread has nearly the same number of posts as the IEM and GSTL live threads together. Priorities. if we want esports to grow this is a bigger priority than any of those tournaments. Just shows that a lot of people are more interested in drama than the actual game. Not really im saying removing homophobic and racist language would be a big plus to raising esports awareness and acceptance socially, is that a hard point to understand? More people should listen to this guy. And more of you EG-praisers should start commenting on the double-standards shown by EG and the community when it comes to people like Idra. Don't avoid that topic. If such language should be completely forbidden (which I disagree with) then it should apply to everyone Maybe you should read the mod edit at the top of the page? Can you clarify? I meant that I don't hear enough comments from the other camp about the double-standards and for the sake of discussion would like to hear it. I agree with the poster who mentioned that it is due to economics, without a doubt it is. But that dosn't morally justify it, which is something those who are praising EG for their decision is trying to do, saying it was the right thing? Orb has been using racial slurs for YEARS and has even faced punitive action from TL before. But he continued to use them on the ladder and even in his stream. He showed no remorse and no desire to improve. Do not have a short memory about this. Orb has had this problem for a very long time and this is not the first incident nor is it the first time the community has called him out on it. IdrA on the other hand, when corrected by Alex, has stopped using homophobic slurs. People who are willing to clean themselves up and improve should be rewarded, not punished. One shows improvement. The other shows a complete lack of sensitivity. IdrA has earned his slack. Orb has earned his termination. destiny still uses offensive terms. he says faggot after every game he loses. TL has done shit about him so far.
TL should do shit about him them. It's absolutely silly to say "you are not allowed to right X wrong because Y wrong still happens."
And believe me, this WILL be a wakeup call for every official SC2 organization. I bet TL will start cleaning up its featured streamer list as a result of this.
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again, more bull shit. how many years has he been offensive in this community? just because he has stoped saying the word a few months ago does not make up for the years of him being offensive in the first place. congratz, it took him all this time to finally come clean. and guess what? he is still BM as shit, he just doesnt use the strong terms like "faggot" anymore. but he is still immature, BM, and non respectful to most ppl on ladder.
If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it.
Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself."
Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc.
"Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about.
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On March 09 2012 22:48 Gajarell wrote:
Let me get this straight,
Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc.
He didn't used nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
He did this prior to his contract with EG.
He got fired because people rose a shitstorm of moral outrage, complaining to EG and their sponsors.
I'm feeling concerned about this witchhunt style of persecution, which makes me believe that you can get anyone fired/you can destroy anyones life for completly arbitary reasons if you just put enough effort into researching every inch of his life.
Due to the sheer lack of anything to condemn, i'm going to file a complain to EG and every single one of their sponsors, even if it's just to restore some kind of balance in the universe - -"
And btw i never got that disgusted by any kind of hypocrisy like in this thread.
Yeah go after EGs sponsors that is super helpful to Esports.
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On March 09 2012 22:48 Gajarell wrote:
Let me get this straight,
Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc.
He didn't used nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
He did this prior to his contract with EG.
He got fired because people rose a shitstorm of moral outrage, complaining to EG and their sponsors.
I'm feeling concerned about this witchhunt style of persecution, which makes me believe that you can get anyone fired/you can destroy anyones life for completly arbitary reasons if you just put enough effort into researching every inch of his life.
Due to the sheer lack of anything to condemn, i'm going to file a complain to EG and every single one of their sponsors, even if it's just to restore some kind of balance in the universe - -"
And btw i never got that disgusted by any kind of hypocrisy like in this thread.
Finally a sane person here. You nailed it, bro.
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Think I'll write a mail to steelseries. I bought their headset for 2 reasons:
- It's a danish company
- They are proud sponsors of eSports - and EG
I think the correct actions have been taken. Great write up, Alex. I hope non of your sponsors withdraws. EG is certainly one of the most charismatic teams out there. Such great personalities and players.
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Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words.
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I'm astonished that in the US you can get fired for having sayid a word before even starting on contract. I am also astonished by the fact that such a word, essentially meaning 'black guy', is a level >9000 insult in there. I never got it and probably never will. If somebody called me that I would probably just burst out laughing due to the general absurdness of the situation. But I guess that is one of the thinks really culture-dependant, like all these wierd korean dramas that you can read here every so often.
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On March 09 2012 22:52 Greentellon wrote:
Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words.
i can handle being insulted but i think it is unacceptable that homophobic/racist language be used especially by people in public positions.
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On March 09 2012 22:52 Greentellon wrote:
Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words.
I think thats why a discussion here was brought up instead. In real life you wouldn't complain because people would tell you to grow a backbone and confront the person directly.
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On March 09 2012 22:31 CaptainAmerica wrote:
Hypocrisy 101? Idra uses "faggot" while on the EG payroll and you don't fire him. Orb uses "nigger" while not on the EG payroll and you fire him. Not that I'm looking to get Idra fired, but I don't see how you can really defend yourself here, Alex. I wonder, if people raised hell about Idra (or anyone else on EG using the word "faggot") and called your sponsors, would you fire him then? This doesn't look so much like it's about standing up for people, but rather about you protecting your business. Understandable from a business perspective, I guess, but as one of those members of this community with principles/beliefs/whatever-the-fuck-you-want-call-them I object to your behavior.
Oh, one more thing, you should add r--e to that list. How do think rape victims feel when they hear that term casually thrown around? I'm sure there are more words, too, but you're right about one thing - This community won't go mainstream until it grows up a little as far as language/behavior is concerned. WELL, let's get started.
GL HF
Nail on the head^
The response from Alex is purely damage control to stop hemorrhaging sponsorship...
Beyond hypocritical!
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On March 09 2012 22:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +again, more bull shit. how many years has he been offensive in this community? just because he has stoped saying the word a few months ago does not make up for the years of him being offensive in the first place. congratz, it took him all this time to finally come clean. and guess what? he is still BM as shit, he just doesnt use the strong terms like "faggot" anymore. but he is still immature, BM, and non respectful to most ppl on ladder. If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it. Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself." Show nested quote +Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc. "Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about.
holy fuck.
let me spell it out for you.
orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as offensive as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean. infact they didnt even try to give orb a chance.
keep being biased bro.
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On March 09 2012 22:39 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:35 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:34 Tobberoth wrote:
What people need to realize is that "gay" and "nigger" are already insults like "retard" or "dumbass". Yeah, they became insults because of homophobia and racism, people who hated black people called people they disliked "nigger" as an insult. That doesn't mean someone today using those words as insults are racist or homophobic, they are just using known insults. If you call someone "idiot", do you literally think of "a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."? No? Because that is what it means and where the insult comes from. But you don't know that, you just need an insult and say what comes to mind. Same with people who use "nigger" as an insult, they aren't literally saying "you're bad, so you're a nigger because blacks are bad and so are you", they are just using an insult which they consider strong. I think retard is a stronger insult than idiot, but if you go by the historical meaning of the terms, idiot is actually far worse. But we DON'T go by historical meanings. They are still racist and homophobic just stop being biggoted and realise that >.> . No they aren't. You're misunderstanding their use of language and attributing views to them they might very well not have. i understand they may not mean it in a homophobic sense but the word itself is homophobic and downgrading.
That is subjective. Saying someone is "gay" as an insult doesn't have to be homophobic, even though it certainly could be in some contexts. We can all agree that it's because of homophobia that the word is even considered an insult, but this is historical fact and it's subjective how much we have to respect that. Personally, I feel like we should try to stop words from becoming insults based on such things as racism, homophobia and antifeminism... but I feel it's WAAY to late to do anything about "gay" and "nigger", those words have been considered insults for longer as we've been alive. All you have to do is accept that they are mere insults, and the problem basically disappears, until people become really offended and sensitive about it.
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On March 09 2012 22:51 Mentalizor wrote:
Think I'll write a mail to steelseries. I bought their headset for 2 reasons:
- It's a danish company
- They are proud sponsors of eSports - and EG
I think the correct actions have been taken. Great write up, Alex. I hope non of your sponsors withdraws. EG is certainly one of the most charismatic teams out there. Such great personalities and players.
yeah I agree, i loved the part the most when Idra called the other player a faggot!
How his charismatic "rage" just gets written off as Idra being Idra!
Being two faced is fun!
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On March 09 2012 22:48 Gajarell wrote:
Let me get this straight,
Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc.
He didn't used nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
He did this prior to his contract with EG.
He got fired because people rose a shitstorm of moral outrage, complaining to EG and their sponsors.
I'm feeling concerned about this witchhunt style of persecution, which makes me believe that you can get anyone fired/you can destroy anyones life for completly arbitary reasons if you just put enough effort into researching every inch of his life.
Due to the sheer lack of anything to condemn, i'm going to file a complain to EG and every single one of their sponsors, even if it's just to restore some kind of balance in the universe - -"
And btw i never got that disgusted by any kind of hypocrisy like in this thread.
Seriously this. If everyone had EG's logic, wouldnt Destiny be kicked out of Quantic by now? he used the word Nigger frequently on his stream? So why are they still sponsoring him?
Because it was in the past
i really cant believe how much Reddit blew this whole sitiation up, and my deepest regards goto Orb, who lost a great career opportunity.
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On March 09 2012 22:50 Detwiler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:48 Gajarell wrote:
Let me get this straight,
Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc.
He didn't used nigger in any kind of race-related fashion.
He did this prior to his contract with EG.
He got fired because people rose a shitstorm of moral outrage, complaining to EG and their sponsors.
I'm feeling concerned about this witchhunt style of persecution, which makes me believe that you can get anyone fired/you can destroy anyones life for completly arbitary reasons if you just put enough effort into researching every inch of his life.
Due to the sheer lack of anything to condemn, i'm going to file a complain to EG and every single one of their sponsors, even if it's just to restore some kind of balance in the universe - -"
And btw i never got that disgusted by any kind of hypocrisy like in this thread. Yeah go after EGs sponsors that is super helpful to Esports.
Don't worry, bro... He's got 2 posts, so this guy is all about eSports. On a serious note though: There's a huuuuge difference between calling someone an asshole and calling someone a faggot/nigger. You ACT like an asshole. You ARE a black/homosexuel. Most likely you'll have no idea who you're playing. But honestly, if IdrA at some tournament played a korean and rather than "gg" he wrote something racist against asians, I can't see EG keeping him. One thing is what you do on ladder and one thing is what you do with a crowd.
"But Menta, what Orb did was on ladder" - True, but being a personality within the community you should always consider the outcome of your actions. I once played dApollo on ladder. I cannonrushed him... I failed an all in... I popped the DT's... I did everything that people will often be mad about - but he just kept playing. And after a 40+min game he took me down. I wrote "ggwp" and he said something along the lines of: "Nice playing with you gg"... He even wrote it to my in private after the game was over since I insta left after my gg... But basicly a personality should never write anything if there's the slightest chance it'll be used against them.
IdrA can somehow get away with it. But most of his rage is more about himself/balance/the game... Rather than people
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holy fuck.
let me spell it out for you.
orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean.
keep being biased bro.
There's nothing biased about pointing out that you're conflating two different things - BM and BM with a bigoted connotation to it - in order to bash on EG. So keep spelling out why it's wrong for EG to stick with an employee who has also cleaned up his act somewhat and makes them money and has been with them for a while, while dropping someone who is quite honestly a B-team caster that they just started a relationship with, a relationship that immediately went very sour for them.
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On March 09 2012 22:54 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:52 Greentellon wrote:
Wait, people still get offended by stuff other people say? You are going to have seriously hard life ahead of you if you can't handle a couple of "offensive" words. i can handle being insulted but i think it is unacceptable that homophobic/racist language be used especially by people in public positions.
If you have a complete lack of context awareness I guess you could think like that. So you also think Idra should be thrown out of EG, right?
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On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:again, more bull shit. how many years has he been offensive in this community? just because he has stoped saying the word a few months ago does not make up for the years of him being offensive in the first place. congratz, it took him all this time to finally come clean. and guess what? he is still BM as shit, he just doesnt use the strong terms like "faggot" anymore. but he is still immature, BM, and non respectful to most ppl on ladder. If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it. Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself." Orb got fired for using a nowadays completly generic curse/insult - like faggot, asshole, noob, retard etc. "Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about. holy fuck. let me spell it out for you. orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean. keep being biased bro.
I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up.
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On March 09 2012 22:55 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 22:39 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:38 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 22:35 Zaros wrote:On March 09 2012 22:34 Tobberoth wrote:
What people need to realize is that "gay" and "nigger" are already insults like "retard" or "dumbass". Yeah, they became insults because of homophobia and racism, people who hated black people called people they disliked "nigger" as an insult. That doesn't mean someone today using those words as insults are racist or homophobic, they are just using known insults. If you call someone "idiot", do you literally think of "a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."? No? Because that is what it means and where the insult comes from. But you don't know that, you just need an insult and say what comes to mind. Same with people who use "nigger" as an insult, they aren't literally saying "you're bad, so you're a nigger because blacks are bad and so are you", they are just using an insult which they consider strong. I think retard is a stronger insult than idiot, but if you go by the historical meaning of the terms, idiot is actually far worse. But we DON'T go by historical meanings. They are still racist and homophobic just stop being biggoted and realise that >.> . No they aren't. You're misunderstanding their use of language and attributing views to them they might very well not have. i understand they may not mean it in a homophobic sense but the word itself is homophobic and downgrading. That is subjective. Saying someone is "gay" as an insult doesn't have to be homophobic, even though it certainly could be in some contexts. We can all agree that it's because of homophobia that the word is even considered an insult, but this is historical fact and it's subjective how much we have to respect that. Personally, I feel like we should try to stop words from becoming insults based on such things as racism, homophobia and antifeminism... but I feel it's WAAY to late to do anything about "gay" and "nigger", those words have been considered insults for longer as we've been alive. All you have to do is accept that they are mere insults, and the problem basically disappears, until people become really offended and sensitive about it.
I dont think its historical when there is alot of hate crime towards gay people and you can be killed in some countries for being gay. Also in the most liberal countries gay people still cant even get married for instance, so calling it an historical issue is laughable.
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